Originally Posted By: Sausage
They are citizens of their own nation.
RE: laughingWillow

No joke here. You make a statement and then avoid reply questions with more generalization. Nobody asked you to complete any list, just name ONE or more specifically name one THAT APPLIES TO NEW YORK STATE. It is the tribes that are violating the treaties. Granted that the present day descendents may not like what their ancestors agreed to and SCOTUS seldom rules in favor of tribal skewed arguments and when you cannot justify the arguments you attack through generalizations rather than explain yourself.

But repeating lies does not make the lies true. OK, if that is what you were taught then I can rationalize your misunderstandings to be that, but nonetheless misconstrued and wrong.

SCOTUS has ruled at least five times that tribes have to collect sales taxes from non-Indians and tribal members if not members of the tribe making the sales. It is only through riots and political corruption that this is avoided.

As BZ asked and you ran away from, what aspect of what treaty that you have was not honored?

Re: Sausage

At least Sausage asked a specific question. Reservation elimination? No, that would be a case by case basis. But they should also comply with the laws everyone else does, which includes being arrested for failure to comply.

Refusal to acknowledge that reservations and those that live on them are a part of the state and citizens of that state in which they reside does not change that fact as being true. To that end SCOTUS has also ruled. But therein lies the disagreement

The coming of the Europeans meant there was no need to wait millennia for some ingenious Indian to figure out how to build a wheeled cart or discover laws of logic. That along with thousands of other accomplishments it is gratitude and not hostility that Christopher Columbus deserves from the
descendents of the American aborigines and academia with goals not un-similar to Islamic extremists disdaining Western civilization and those who made it possible.

An organism's life is it's standard value: that which furthers it's life is the good, that which threatens it's life is the evil. - Ayn Rand Reason is man's means of survival. It follows that the most rational civilization is the one that embodies the best end product of man's best thinking and action since the beginning of time, which represents the highest social value possible to mankind and an enormous good. Western Civilization is that most rational civilization, that highest social value.

Simply put it is better to be well off, healthy and safe than poor, sick and afraid. People who fail to civilize themselves are doomed to live in filth, hunger and fear and die before their time.

The Pit River Indians believed that the essence of religion was the spirit of wonder, the recognition of power as a mysterious concentrated form of non-material energy, of something lose in the world and contained in a more or less condensed degree by every object. The Mayas believed the stones of their temples to be inhabited by spirits, thus they could never bring themselves to tear down a crumbling building for fear of insulting the spirits and built new building around the old.

It is not a cultural conditioning that makes us believe that telephoning from an air conditioned apartment for pizza delivers is preferable to knawing on vermin ridden meat in a sweltering teepee.

Only Western Civilization is sophisticated enough to have originated the idea that it is inferior. Primitive societies are ethnocentric viewing social reality as "us vs. everyone else". Such a mentality does not permit the emergence of tribal self hatred, since that would spell instant destruction at the hands of other tribes. In this limited sense, the pre-Columbian Indians were arguably superior to modern academics who damn America and its achievements, out of guilt or a desire to appease.

The North American pre-Columbian Indians were nomadic village dwelling cultures that had not developed an Aristotle of their own, nor discovered the laws of logic, nor formed a concept of natural law. Instead they believed the universe to be ruled by spirits that required unflinching obedience to deliberate mind numbing rituals and taboos. They had developed no science or mathematics and most no written language. Politically, they never developed the idea of individual rights. Warfare between tribes was widespread and brutally destructive. They were still mired in the stone age. They were miserably poor, not only by the standards of today but by 15th century Europe. All Indians were subject to physical and economic catastrophes such as floods, pestilence, and epidemic disease that modern societies tamed or forgot.

Tribes lacked the intellectual tools to be self critical and behaved irrationally using their power and wealth to conquer weaker tribes, extort tribute, capture slaves and slaughter sacrificial victims. To step outside of reality five hundred years later and point fingers is laughable because it ignores the world as it existed at the time.


Throughout the centuries there were men who took first steps down new roads armed with nothing but their own vision. Their goals differed, but they all had this in common: that the step was first, the road new, the vision unborrowed, and the response they received - hatred. Ayn Rand

If it were not for Columbus, Western Civilization itself would not have flourished.

Cultural relativism is invalid because it is self contradictory. Relativism is a self refuting doctrine. For it claims an objective validity for itself when it is advocating the impossibility of objective validity; it steps outside a culture to claim that one cannot step outside a culture; it condemns as immoral the whole institution of condemnation and praise. - Michael Berliner

Logic to Sausage apparently is a subjective preference without universal application. Reason knows no race and the only valid reason for teaching history from the perspective of Western Civilization lies in the objective merits and achievements of that civilization, compared with all others.

Sir Sausage, you appear to remain in the us vs. them mentality.

You may well be a citizen of your own tribe or an academic equivalent to the islamic extremists, as I am a member of my lodge, but we are both also citizens of the state and country we live in. As such, we should obey the same laws.

Ramble on and have a nice day. \:\)