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#967752 --- 01/27/09 09:26 AM Octuplets'
AnneSmile Offline
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Registered: 02/01/08
Posts: 9955
Loc: Amusement
(CNN) -- A woman in California delivered what may be the nation's second live-born set of octuplets on Monday morning, surprising doctors who expected seven babies. The first three to seven days will be critical for the infants, Dr. Mandhir Gupta said.

The six boys and two girls -- ranging in weight from 1 pound 8 ounces to 3 pounds 4 ounces -- were generally doing well in incubators following their Caesarean-section delivery at Kaiser Permanente hospital in Bellflower, California, doctors said.

Three of the babies need breathing assistance, but otherwise the eight don't appear to have serious problems, doctors said at a news conference Monday evening.

"It was a truly amazing delivery," said Dr. Karen Maples, chief of the hospital's obstetrics and gynecology department.

Doctors initially believed the mother -- whom they did not identify -- was pregnant with seven fetuses. The woman was 23 weeks pregnant when she was hospitalized seven weeks ago and ordered to bed rest.

Over a seven-week period, a team of 46 physicians, nurses and other staff prepared for the births. When they started the delivery Monday -- more than nine weeks before the babies would be full term -- they were in for a surprise.

"After we got to Baby G, we were surprised by the discovery of a Baby H," Maples said.

Getting the number correct with ultrasounds before delivery is difficult with so many babies, said Dr. Harold Henry, the hospital's chief of fetal medicine.

"It is quite easy to miss a baby when you're expecting seven," Henry said.

The hospital said the woman didn't want her personal information released to the news media, and it would not answer questions about whether she'd had fertility treatments.

Preliminary research indicates this is the second set of live-born octuplets in the United States, according to the hospital.

Eight babies believed to be the United States' first set of live octuplets were born in Houston, Texas, in 1998. One of the infants died days after birth. The seven other siblings recently celebrated their 10th birthday, the Houston Chronicle reported last month.

The first three to seven days will be critical for the California babies, said Dr. Mandhir Gupta, one of the doctors at the news conference. The infants could be in incubators for six to eight weeks and in the hospital for 10 weeks, Gupta said.

The mother is doing "very well" after the deliveries, which took about five minutes, Gupta said.

"She is very excited that she [has] all these babies and that the babies are looking good so far," Gupta said.
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#967759 --- 01/27/09 09:34 AM Re: Octuplets' [Re: AnneSmile]
ruth 1968 Offline
Member

Registered: 03/26/08
Posts: 177
Loc: Earth
Yikes, one was hard enough but 8

I wish them the best \:\)
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#967769 --- 01/27/09 09:54 AM Re: Octuplets' [Re: ruth 1968]
sparky's back Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 9386
Loc: At Home..in the kitchen!!
WOW..I wish them the best.
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#968055 --- 01/27/09 06:39 PM Re: Octuplets' [Re: sparky's back]
past tense Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 03/05/03
Posts: 29711
Loc: Houston, TX
I obviously hope the best for the entire family, however I find this trend highly disturbing. And now it's glorified on shows like "Jon & Kate Plus 8".

Using fertility treatments is the "other end" of the whole abortion debate that people don't like to talk about. If a faith-based argument against having an abortion is that your unplanned pregnancy was part of God's greater plan, isn't childlessness also a part of God's plan? What about this new manufacturing of embryos for infertile couples? Or fertility treatments or surrogacy? Aren't they as much an affront to some grand, other-worldly plan for our uteri as an abortion?

And I think carrying this many feti is HORRIFIC and unnatural. There is a reason this doesn't occur naturally in human beings, and there is a reason why these "success" stories are so few and far between.

In short - highly irresponsible use of the technology available in the field of fertility.
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#968089 --- 01/27/09 06:59 PM Re: Octuplets' [Re: past tense]
ovidtech Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/13/07
Posts: 2858
Loc: Between.
Yeah, what she said. It's ridiculous. Same for "grandma" having kids thanks to science.
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#968119 --- 01/27/09 07:27 PM Re: Octuplets' [Re: past tense]
HarleyBobT Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/22/08
Posts: 5106
Loc: Walloon Freedom Fighter
Originally Posted By: past tense
I obviously hope the best for the entire family, however I find this trend highly disturbing. And now it's glorified on shows like "Jon & Kate Plus 8".

Using fertility treatments is the "other end" of the whole abortion debate that people don't like to talk about. If a faith-based argument against having an abortion is that your unplanned pregnancy was part of God's greater plan, isn't childlessness also a part of God's plan? What about this new manufacturing of embryos for infertile couples? Or fertility treatments or surrogacy? Aren't they as much an affront to some grand, other-worldly plan for our uteri as an abortion?

And I think carrying this many feti is HORRIFIC and unnatural. There is a reason this doesn't occur naturally in human beings, and there is a reason why these "success" stories are so few and far between.

In short - highly irresponsible use of the technology available in the field of fertility.


Now I don't understand what your talking about? You use some sort of birth control to not have children and that's ok. It's also ok for a abortion doctor to suck the brains out of a fetus while it's still in it's mothers womb. But it's highly irresponsible use of the technology available in the field of fertility... ok!?
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#968122 --- 01/27/09 07:32 PM Re: Octuplets' [Re: HarleyBobT]
past tense Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 03/05/03
Posts: 29711
Loc: Houston, TX
I'm shocked that you don't understand \:\/

I'm not talking about people who use birth control to prevent having children. I'm saying that if one argument against having an abortion is that your unplanned pregnancy was part of a grand scheme, a great plan, a "bigger picture" created by God - how is the same not true of a couple who are infertile? How is manufacturing a child using artificial means not as much an interference with a "bigger picture" as the termination of a pregnancy?

There is a reason human women do not naturally - ever - become pregnant with seven or eight embryos at a time. The female human body was not meant or designed to carry a litter of babies. It's dangerous, and if you need proof, you only need to look at the number of failures of this kind of in-vitro fertilization versus the numbers of successes. This is "big news" because it's so unnatural, not because it's a good idea.


Edited by past tense (01/27/09 07:37 PM)
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#968185 --- 01/27/09 08:37 PM Re: Octuplets' [Re: past tense]
HarleyBobT Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/22/08
Posts: 5106
Loc: Walloon Freedom Fighter
Originally Posted By: past tense
I'm shocked that you don't understand \:\/

I'm not talking about people who use birth control to prevent having children. I'm saying that if one argument against having an abortion is that your unplanned pregnancy was part of a grand scheme, a great plan, a "bigger picture" created by God - how is the same not true of a couple who are infertile? How is manufacturing a child using artificial means not as much an interference with a "bigger picture" as the termination of a pregnancy?

There is a reason human women do not naturally - ever - become pregnant with seven or eight embryos at a time. The female human body was not meant or designed to carry a litter of babies. It's dangerous, and if you need proof, you only need to look at the number of failures of this kind of in-vitro fertilization versus the numbers of successes. This is "big news" because it's so unnatural, not because it's a good idea.


I do agree with you that it is dangerous and wrong, so is sucking the brains of a fetus out.
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#968199 --- 01/27/09 08:55 PM Re: Octuplets' [Re: HarleyBobT]
past tense Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 03/05/03
Posts: 29711
Loc: Houston, TX
Originally Posted By: HarleyBobT
I do agree with you that it is dangerous and wrong, so is sucking the brains of a fetus out.


LOL

Hilarious. You do know that "sucking the brains out of a fetus" is not describing the procedure used for the majority of abortions, right? And that even in late-term abortions, the procedure you describe is only performed if the fetus is in the breech position during the induction? And that most late-term abortions that do use that procedure are indicated because the life or health of the mother is at risk, and/or the child has one or more major health/genetic/physical abnormalities?

But it is a sensational and shocking turn of phrase, so whatever works for you.


Edited by past tense (01/27/09 08:56 PM)
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#968230 --- 01/27/09 09:25 PM Re: Octuplets' [Re: past tense]
Senecamom Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 02/04/06
Posts: 7411
Loc: On a journey......
At eight to nine weeks the eyelids have begun forming and hair appears. By the ninth and tenth weeks the preborn child sucks her thumb, turns somersaults, jumps, can squint to close out light, frown, swallow, and move her tongue.

At this early stage of development, suction abortions are performed using a smaller tube, requiring little dilation of the cervix. This is called "menstrual extraction." However, if all the fetal remains are not removed, infection results, requiring full dilation of the cervix and a scraping out of the womb.

Suction Aspiration
This is the most common method of abortion during the first 12 weeks of pregnancy. General or local anaesthesia is given to the mother and her cervix is quickly dilated. A suction curette (hollow tube with a knife-edged tip) is inserted into the womb. This instrument is then connected to a vacuum machine by a transparent tube. The vacuum suction, 29 times more powerful than a household vacuum cleaner, tears the fetus and placenta into small pieces which are sucked through the tube into a bottle and discarded.

Dilation and Curettage (D&C)
This method is similar to the suction method with the added insertion of a hook shaped knife (curette) which cuts the baby into pieces. The pieces are scraped out through the cervix and discarded [Note: This abortion method should not be confused with a therapeutic D&C done for reasons other than pregancy.]

At Twelve Weeks
By the end of the third month all arteries are present, including the coronary vessels of the heart. Blood is circulating through these vessels to all body parts.

The heart beat ranges during this fetal period from 110 to 160 beats per minute. All blood cells are produced by the liver and spleen, a job soon taken over by the bone marrow. White blood cells, important for immunity, are formed in the lymph nodes and thymus.

Vocal chords are complete, and the child can and does sometimes cry (silently). The brain is fully formed, and the child can feel pain. The fetus may even suck his thumb. The eyelids now cover the eyes, and will remain shut until the seventh month to protect the delicate optical nerve fibers.


14 weeks: Muscles lenghten and become organized. The mother will soon start feeling the first flutters of the baby kicking and moving inside.

15 weeks: The fetus has an adult's taste buds and may be able to savor the mother's meals.

16 weeks: Five and a half inches tall and only six ounces in weight, eyebrows, eyelashes and fine hair appear. The child can grasp with his hands, kick, or even somersault.

At Eighteen Weeks
The fetus is now about 5 inches long. The child blinks, grasps, and moves her mouth. Hair grows on the head and body.

20 weeks: The child can hear and recognize mother's voice. Though still small and fragile, the baby is growing rapidly and could possibly survive if born at this stage. Fingernails and fingerprints appear. Sex organs are visible. Using an ultrasound device, the doctor can tell if the child is a girl or a boy. The one on the left is a baby girl.

Dilation and Evacuation (D&E)
This method is used up to 18 weeks' gestation. Instead of the loop-shaped knife used in D&C abortions, a pair of forceps is inserted into the womb to grasp part of the fetus. The teeth of the forceps twist and tear the bones of the unborn child. This process is repeated until the fetus is totally dismembered and removed. Usually the spine must be snapped and the skull crushed in order to remove them.

Salt Poisoning (Saline Injection):
Used after 16 weeks (four months) when enough fluid has accumulated. A long needle injects a strong salt solution through the mother's abdomen into the baby's sac. The baby swallows this fluid and is poisoned by it. It also acts as a corrosive, burning off the outer layer of skin. It normally takes somewhat over an hour for the baby to die from this. Within 24 hours, labor will usually set in and the mother will give birth to a dead or dying baby. (There have been many cases of these babies being born alive. They are usually left unattended to die. However, a few have survived and later been adopted.)

At Six Months the unborn child is covered with a fine, downy hair called lanugo. Its tender skin is protected by a waxy substance called vernix. Some of this substance may still be on the child's skin at birth at which time it will be quickly absorbed. The child practices breathing by inhaling amnionic fluid into developing lungs.


Prostaglandin Chemical Abortion
This form of abortion uses chemicals developed by the Upjohn Pharmaceutical Co. which cause the uterus to contract intensely, pushing out the developing baby. The contractions are more violent than normal, natural contractions, so the unborn baby is frequently killed by them -- some have even been decapitated. Many, however, have also been born alive.

Hysterotomy or Caesarean Section
Used mainly in the last three months of pregnancy, the womb is entered by surgery through the wall of the abdomen. The technique is similar to a Caesarean delivery, except that the umbilical cord is usually cut while the baby is still in the womb, thus cutting off his oxygen supply and causing him to suffocate. Sometimes the baby is removed alive and simply left in a corner to die of neglect or exposure.

At 30 Weeks
For several months, the umbilical cord has been the baby's lifeline to the mother. Nourishment is transferred from the mother's blood, through the placenta, and into the umbilical cord to the fetus. If the mother ingests any toxic substances, such as drugs or alcohol, the baby receives these as well.

32 weeks: The fetus sleeps 90-95% of the day, and sometimes experiences REM sleep, an indication of dreaming.

Partial-Birth Abortion
Five steps to a partial birth abortion:

Guided by ultrasound, the abortionist grabs the baby's legs with forceps.

The baby's leg is pulled out into the birth canal.

The abortionist delivers the baby's entire body, except for the head.

The abortionist jams scissors into the baby's skull. The scissors are then opened to enlarge the skull.

The scissors are removed and a suction catheter is inserted. The child's brains are sucked out, causing the skull to collapse. The dead baby is then removed.
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#968265 --- 01/27/09 10:07 PM Re: Octuplets' [Re: Senecamom]
SkySoldier Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 08/18/01
Posts: 25300
Loc: Finger Lakes National Forest, ...
[quote=senecamom]At eight to nine weeks the eyelids have begun forming and hair appears. By the ninth and tenth weeks the preborn child sucks her thumb, turns somersaults, jumps, can squint to close out light, frown, swallow, and move her tongue.

At this early stage of development, suction abortions are performed using a smaller tube, requiring little dilation of the cervix. This is called "menstrual extraction." However, if all the fetal remains are not removed, infection results, requiring full dilation of the cervix and a scraping out of the womb.

Suction Aspiration
This is the most common method of abortion during the first 12 weeks of pregnancy. General or local anaesthesia is given to the mother and her cervix is quickly dilated. A suction curette (hollow tube with a knife-edged tip) is inserted into the womb. This instrument is then connected to a vacuum machine by a transparent tube. The vacuum suction, 29 times more powerful than a household vacuum cleaner, tears the fetus and placenta into small pieces which are sucked through the tube into a bottle and discarded.

Dilation and Curettage (D&C)
This method is similar to the suction method with the added insertion of a hook shaped knife (curette) which cuts the baby into pieces. The pieces are scraped out through the cervix and discarded [Note: This abortion method should not be confused with a therapeutic D&C done for reasons other than pregancy.]

At Twelve Weeks
By the end of the third month all arteries are present, including the coronary vessels of the heart. Blood is circulating through these vessels to all body parts.

The heart beat ranges during this fetal period from 110 to 160 beats per minute. All blood cells are produced by the liver and spleen, a job soon taken over by the bone marrow. White blood cells, important for immunity, are formed in the lymph nodes and thymus.

Vocal chords are complete, and the child can and does sometimes cry (silently). The brain is fully formed, and the child can feel pain. The fetus may even suck his thumb. The eyelids now cover the eyes, and will remain shut until the seventh month to protect the delicate optical nerve fibers.


14 weeks: Muscles lenghten and become organized. The mother will soon start feeling the first flutters of the baby kicking and moving inside.

15 weeks: The fetus has an adult's taste buds and may be able to savor the mother's meals.

16 weeks: Five and a half inches tall and only six ounces in weight, eyebrows, eyelashes and fine hair appear. The child can grasp with his hands, kick, or even somersault.

At Eighteen Weeks
The fetus is now about 5 inches long. The child blinks, grasps, and moves her mouth. Hair grows on the head and body.

20 weeks: The child can hear and recognize mother's voice. Though still small and fragile, the baby is growing rapidly and could possibly survive if born at this stage. Fingernails and fingerprints appear. Sex organs are visible. Using an ultrasound device, the doctor can tell if the child is a girl or a boy. The one on the left is a baby girl.

Dilation and Evacuation (D&E)
This method is used up to 18 weeks' gestation. Instead of the loop-shaped knife used in D&C abortions, a pair of forceps is inserted into the womb to grasp part of the fetus. The teeth of the forceps twist and tear the bones of the unborn child. This process is repeated until the fetus is totally dismembered and removed. Usually the spine must be snapped and the skull crushed in order to remove them.

Salt Poisoning (Saline Injection):
Used after 16 weeks (four months) when enough fluid has accumulated. A long needle injects a strong salt solution through the mother's abdomen into the baby's sac. The baby swallows this fluid and is poisoned by it. It also acts as a corrosive, burning off the outer layer of skin. It normally takes somewhat over an hour for the baby to die from this. Within 24 hours, labor will usually set in and the mother will give birth to a dead or dying baby. (There have been many cases of these babies being born alive. They are usually left unattended to die. However, a few have survived and later been adopted.)

At Six Months the unborn child is covered with a fine, downy hair called lanugo. Its tender skin is protected by a waxy substance called vernix. Some of this substance may still be on the child's skin at birth at which time it will be quickly absorbed. The child practices breathing by inhaling amnionic fluid into developing lungs.


Prostaglandin Chemical Abortion
This form of abortion uses chemicals developed by the Upjohn Pharmaceutical Co. which cause the uterus to contract intensely, pushing out the developing baby. The contractions are more violent than normal, natural contractions, so the unborn baby is frequently killed by them -- some have even been decapitated. Many, however, have also been born alive.

Hysterotomy or Caesarean Section
Used mainly in the last three months of pregnancy, the womb is entered by surgery through the wall of the abdomen. The technique is similar to a Caesarean delivery, except that the umbilical cord is usually cut while the baby is still in the womb, thus cutting off his oxygen supply and causing him to suffocate. Sometimes the baby is removed alive and simply left in a corner to die of neglect or exposure.

At 30 Weeks
For several months, the umbilical cord has been the baby's lifeline to the mother. Nourishment is transferred from the mother's blood, through the placenta, and into the umbilical cord to the fetus. If the mother ingests any toxic substances, such as drugs or alcohol, the baby receives these as well.

32 weeks: The fetus sleeps 90-95% of the day, and sometimes experiences REM sleep, an indication of dreaming.

Partial-Birth Abortion
Five steps to a partial birth abortion:

Guided by ultrasound, the abortionist grabs the baby's legs with forceps.

The baby's leg is pulled out into the birth canal.

The abortionist delivers the baby's entire body, except for the head.

The abortionist jams scissors into the baby's skull. The scissors are then opened to enlarge the skull.

The scissors are removed and a suction catheter is inserted. The child's brains are sucked out, causing the skull to collapse. The dead baby is then removed."

\:\(
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We can fix that.

America is not THE problem.

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#968344 --- 01/28/09 12:16 AM Re: Octuplets' [Re: SkySoldier]
Brightday Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/01/05
Posts: 1501
Lots of talk here about abortion and little about the subject of 8 beautiful babies that came to full term.

I wish them all a good LIFE.

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#968382 --- 01/28/09 12:45 AM Re: Octuplets' [Re: Brightday]
past tense Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 03/05/03
Posts: 29711
Loc: Houston, TX
Hey, sorry, but I happen to think that this kind of fertility stuff is complete BS. In so many cases one or more of these feti end up dying minutes, hours, or days after birth, and how is that fair when selecting one, or two, or even three embryos (in a successful implantation of say, six) improves the odds of a long, healthy life of each fetus? Instead these ridiculously irresponsible people "go for it" and risk a positive outcome for three over a dangerously risky outcome for six, seven, or eight.

These people are the exception, not the rule, and it's sensationalizing and romanticizing what I consider to be a stupid and irresponsible use of medical advancement in fertility. It also happens to highlight the opposite end of the ridiculous "God meant for you to get knocked up so you shouldn't have an abortion" argument against legalized abortion, so I brought it up. I'd find that argument - "God's plan" - a lot more persuasive if any of the anti-choicers got as worked up about fertility treatments (especially highly irresponsible ones like this). Can you imagine a world in which childless people took in babies whose mothers gave them up for adoption rather than terminating the pregnancy?

Eight kids in an orphanage would have parents right now.
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#968383 --- 01/28/09 12:46 AM Re: Octuplets' [Re: Senecamom]
past tense Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 03/05/03
Posts: 29711
Loc: Houston, TX
Blah, blah, blah.

Women also have the option of a medical (non-surgical) abortion in the first six weeks of pregnancy. I know all that stuff is supposed to make me feel bad about being pro-choice but it doesn't. In fact, it makes me more convinced that legal access to safe medical abortion is necessary.
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#968479 --- 01/28/09 01:39 AM Re: Octuplets' [Re: past tense]
Senecamom Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 02/04/06
Posts: 7411
Loc: On a journey......
"Hey, sorry, but I happen to think that this kind of fertility stuff is complete BS. In so many cases one or more of these feti end up dying minutes, hours, or days after birth, and how is that fair when selecting one, or two, or even three embryos (in a successful implantation of say, six) improves the odds of a long, healthy life of each fetus? Instead these ridiculously irresponsible people "go for it" and risk a positive outcome for three over a dangerously risky outcome for six, seven, or eight.

These people are the exception, not the rule, and it's sensationalizing and romanticizing what I consider to be a stupid and irresponsible use of medical advancement in fertility." [quote] pt.







I absolutely and unequivocaly agree. Fertilization in its extreme use is abuse and dangerous.

Nothing that I posted was intended to make you feel bad about being pro-choice, as a matter of fact I'm not sure how much its anyones business and back alleys are certainly not something I advocate.I don't want anyone telling or limiting what a woman can or cannot do with her own body.

I understand this news of octuplets is headline stuff and some are excited about it for whatever bizarre reason, they think is somehow a great thing and well I suppose thats their right to thinks its cool.
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