FingerLakes1.com Forums
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >
Topic Options
#939888 --- 12/17/08 09:15 AM NY State the iPod Tax
roadguy Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 02/28/02
Posts: 1833
Loc: here
_________________________
When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro.

Top
FingerLakes1.com
#939890 --- 12/17/08 09:16 AM Re: NY State the iPod Tax [Re: roadguy]
Strawberry Jam Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 07/11/04
Posts: 34421
Loc: Herkimer County NY
Just heard about this tax on the news. God help those that like to drink soda and listen to their I-pods.

Top
#939895 --- 12/17/08 09:21 AM Re: NY State the iPod Tax [Re: Strawberry Jam]
TRD_Tacoma Offline
Silver Member

Registered: 09/19/02
Posts: 12952
Loc: Rochester
If you think about it, when you purchase a book or a cd, you pay sales tax on it. I guess in all actuality, if you are buying a song or an ibook online, you are in all actuality purchasing a product and it should have a sales tax associated with it.
_________________________
It's hard for a gay man to feel bad about himself when his urologist asks him out on a date!

Top
#939908 --- 12/17/08 09:34 AM Re: NY State the iPod Tax [Re: TRD_Tacoma]
roadguy Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 02/28/02
Posts: 1833
Loc: here
Originally Posted By: TRD_Tacoma
If you think about it, when you purchase a book or a cd, you pay sales tax on it. I guess in all actuality, if you are buying a song or an ibook online, you are in all actuality purchasing a product and it should have a sales tax associated with it.


Fair enough. The question here is aren't sales tax already in the price of the item you download?

Also the article mentions movie tickets, satellite tv, radio and more. Again aren't people already paying tax on these.

I wouldn't be surprised if they add cell phones and phones in general to the tax.
_________________________
When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro.

Top
#940005 --- 12/17/08 12:09 PM Re: NY State the iPod Tax [Re: roadguy]
TRD_Tacoma Offline
Silver Member

Registered: 09/19/02
Posts: 12952
Loc: Rochester
You would think there sales tax would already be tied to the price of the downloaded item, but I assume this measure is being looked into in the event tax is not included.

When I pay for my satellite radio, I don't see a tax listed on my bill. All I know is the price per month.

As for cell phones, there are already taxes included in the price of the monthly bill.
_________________________
It's hard for a gay man to feel bad about himself when his urologist asks him out on a date!

Top
#940018 --- 12/17/08 12:28 PM Re: NY State the iPod Tax [Re: TRD_Tacoma]
roadguy Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 02/28/02
Posts: 1833
Loc: here
Phones, land or cell are taxed to death now. It's getting ridiculous. I'm waiting for them to go after Skype. It's only a matter of time.
_________________________
When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro.

Top
#940033 --- 12/17/08 12:50 PM Re: NY State the iPod Tax [Re: roadguy]
windywendy Offline
Member

Registered: 07/12/06
Posts: 97
Loc: VA
I just recently moved to VA from NY. Since I've been here, I've learned that NY is taxing the people to death! Here in VA our Verizon bill doesn't have all those taxes... county, 911, state yada yada yada... and I don't smoke but you CAN smoke in some public places down here and the cigs are a lot less too. I've been keeping an eye on gas prices... here it's almost $1 lower per gallon (it varies). Here the people "voted" to BE ABLE to talk on your cell phones while driving. My drivers license here costs the same or $10 less for 8 years than it does for your NY renewal, I think it's two years.. maybe 4, whatever, still less. And this is just a few things I found to be different. Now, I'm sure some things here are more, like rent, but the people have say here. In NY it seems like they are dictating what the people are doing there. I don't know about you but I don't like to be ORDERED around if there's room for comprimise. This is only my opinion and I feel sorry for my loved ones who have to foot the bill for all the higher class people dictating their lives. Geeezzee! Tax soda? Come on, what about candy & chips? Does that NOT cause obesity? That's just an excuse to raise money to cover luxury expese for the rich. Can't wait to see the next Census count for NY.
_________________________
Make life what you want it to be - Don't let life MAKE YOU!

Top
#940042 --- 12/17/08 01:02 PM Re: NY State the iPod Tax [Re: Strawberry Jam]
Sovereign King Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/29/08
Posts: 3506
Loc: Auditioning on Broadway
Originally Posted By: Strawberry Jam
...I-pods.
Tax, uh who actually pays for music they download?

Top
#940064 --- 12/17/08 01:32 PM Re: NY State the iPod Tax [Re: Sovereign King]
roadguy Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 02/28/02
Posts: 1833
Loc: here
Originally Posted By: Sovereign King
Originally Posted By: Strawberry Jam
...I-pods.
Tax, uh who actually pays for music they download?


It's not just about music. They want to tax more than that.

Don't get me started on the paying for download issue. If you don't buy the music you are a thief.
_________________________
When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro.

Top
#940065 --- 12/17/08 01:39 PM Re: NY State the iPod Tax [Re: roadguy]
VM Smith Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 11/28/05
Posts: 38160
Loc: Ship of Fools
"If you don't buy the music you are a thief."


A Message to the Music Industry from the Lead Singer of the Kingsmen
Stop Sobbing About Free Music Downloads

By JACK ELY

My name is Jack Ely and I'm the one whose voice is heard daily on The Kingsmen's 1963 recording of Louie Louie, (may it rest in peace) so you know I have some music business experience.

First I'd like to express an opinion that probably will not be very popular but which oozes with truth. In the early '60's when I was recording, records were thought of as a tool to help promote live performances. The live performances were the main revenue stream and the records were just promotional tools to get people to come see the shows. Somewhere this mode of thinking got turned upside down. Consequently in years hence, record companies, producers, et. all, have made recordings, hoping to profit from the sale of those recordings alone, regardless of whether or not the artist could ever pull it off live. This did some things to the music business that weren't very healthy. First it made available to the general public, music of artists who may or may not be good live performers; almost anyone can make a good recording with enough cut-ins and loops. And... it made music by groups of players who never ever intended to perform that music live, and who may or may not have ever been able to get along with each other long enough to really sustain any kind of a road show.

Music is meant to be played for the enjoyment of the audiences. For instance, if I go into the studio with an acoustic guitar and simultaneously play and sing on a recording, people would come to see me perform in that same mode; I.e. playing guitar and singing as a solo act. I don't think they would come to see me expecting a full band. Conversely, if I advertised a 'Night with Louie Louie" people would come expecting to see a rock band that they could dance to, and would be quite disappointed if I showed up with just my acoustic guitar.

The suggestions that recordings are produced today just to sell recorded music is all backwards and the sooner the record companies and producers and artists figure this out the sooner they will all quit sniveling over the fact that the entire world is freely sharing their music digitally and isn't willing to stop; and in fact will do anything to circumvent their efforts to get paid for the recordings alone.

The days of producers and musicians putting bands together just to get a recording deal so they can get paid by the record company for a product that usually never even gets released; those days are over. It's time record companies went back to their roots and became what they started out to be; entities who record working acts in order to

1) capture the performance for posterity, and

2) make a promotional tool to get audiences to the next show.

The solution is to give the world all the free music it wants, but to give the recording entity, whether it be a record company or a producer, or whomever, a cut of every live performance. That will do at least two things and maybe more that I haven't even thought about yet. First it will give everyone involved in the recordings a source of revenue (pay day) for all their hard work of producing and promoting the recordings. Second, it will weed out all the so-called "recording artists" who couldn't, in a live venue, perform their way out of a paper bag. In a down economy the public craves live entertainment, so what better time to get back to basics. The timing couldn't be better for a profitable turn around. So now is the time to get it going.

I send you these thoughts in hopes that just maybe a new/old perspective on the subject of recorded music can be presented to the entire recording world and they can all start making a real profit.

Jack Ely, the former lead singer of The Kingsmen, is a veteran horse trainer. He lives in central Oregon.
_________________________
If you vote for government, you have no right to complain about what government does.

Top
#940084 --- 12/17/08 02:29 PM Re: NY State the iPod Tax [Re: VM Smith]
roadguy Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 02/28/02
Posts: 1833
Loc: here
Ok first I will say the record companies have brought most of this upon themselves.

I work in the music business, on the touring side. I am a huge supporter of the musician/song writer. Ely is saying that everyone should get a cut of the performance revenue.

A quick history of bands. Most artists that signed to a large label years ago would see a small percentage on the initial per record or singles sales. They however made money on publishing which they still do today. Unfortunately sales have shrunk and so has this revenue.

The labels also gave artists, especially newer acts that they were trying to break, tour support. This money was paid back by the bands from record sales. Today bands are touring to promote themselves. However it is costing them more and more out of their pockets to do so. The tour support for many bands is not there today.

Ely is right that the labels need to re-think how they do business. However he is saying they should get a cut of ticket sales. Well the cost of touring is much greater than it was in the 60's or even the 90's for that matter.

If everyone from the labels, producers, etc were to get a cut of the touring revenue ticket prices would be unaffordable. They are already extremely high do to everyone getting too big of a cut of touring profits, from managers, agents, merchandisers, promoters, venues, etc.

Bands today are struggling to turn a profit on the road. No, I'm not talking about bands like the Stones or Nickleback or AC/DC. I'm talking about bands that have a couple CD's out with a song or two that people know.

Sure people may know your music but if you cannot tour the revenue stream is not there.

If these artists are unable to make a living from their art then the art could disappear.

It's a vicious circle. I'm saying if you like a band or artist. Buy the CD especially the ones that are on the indie labels and the ones doing it themselves.

One more thing, I find it funny the Ely is making this statement. This is a guy who sang on one hit, which he and his band didn't even write. He tried to make a career out of it after he decided to leave the group and profit using their name.

Sorry I'm rambling, too much coffee
_________________________
When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro.

Top
#940092 --- 12/17/08 03:14 PM Re: NY State the iPod Tax [Re: roadguy]
VM Smith Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 11/28/05
Posts: 38160
Loc: Ship of Fools
"He tried to make a career out of it after he decided to leave the group and profit using their name."

Maybe, but he's not exactly the only guy who split from the band, as explained in the last para. The purpose of my original post was to point out that there's another way to look at it. All might not agree with Ely, but he's thought about the situation as much as anyone, and his viewpoint at least deserves a listen.:

"Members include Gary Abbott (group member, 1962-63), drums, vocals, saxophone; Barry Curtis (joined group, 1963), vocals; Lynn Easton (left group, 1967), drums; Jack Ely (left group, 1963), lead vocals, guitar; Don Gallucci (group member, 1962-63), piano; Todd McPherson (joined group, 1992), guitar; Mike Mitchell, lead guitar; Bob Nordby (left group, 1963), bass; Dick Peterson (joined group, 1963), bass; Steve Peterson (joined group, 1988), drums; Norm Sundholm (group member, 1963-67), bass; others. Addresses: Fan club--The Kingsmen Fan Club, P.O. Box 941, Peoria, AZ 85380. Website--Kingsmen Official Website: http://www.louielouie.org.

Rising to prominence during the early 1960s, the Kingsmen found success with their hit single "Louie Louie," which continued as their trademark song throughout their career. The group experienced many personnel changes over the years, but their performances and recordings reigned as quintessential party music for more than three decades. From the release of their debut, Kingsmen in Person, and into the early twenty-first century, the Kingsmen have sold a total of 20 million records.

The Kingsmen formed in 1959 in Portland, Oregon, when the original group members--Lynn Easton on drums, Jack Ely on lead vocals and guitar, Don Gallucci on piano, Mike Mitchell on lead guitar, and Bob Nordby on bass--were just teenagers. Their initial performances took place primarily at school parties, dances, and fashion shows. Their live performances in the Portland area quickly grew in frequency and audience size, and soon they were one of the most popular bands in the area. Early Kingsmen performances featured several cover songs. At the time, many Northwest bands played the Wailers' 1961 version of Richard Berry's "Louie Louie," and the Kingsmen were no exception. Singer/guitarist Jack Ely took it upon himself to teach the song to the rest of the group, only it wasn't exactly the way Berry wrote it or the Wailers had recorded it. They altered the basic rhythm, giving it their own style. Later, it would set the standard for how the song was played.

Reigned with "Louie Louie"

In 1963, the Kingsmen decided to try to become the entertainment on a cruise ship bound for Australia. In order to apply for the job, they had to submit a demo tape. They booked a session at Northwest Recorders in Portland for $36, and they recorded "Louie Louie" and an original instrumental song called "Haunted Castle." Although the cruise line did not give them the job, the group played the tape for some friends at KISN, a Portland radio station. As a result, they were able to get their version of "Louie Louie" on local radio.

At the same time they recorded their demo tape, another Northwest band called Paul Revere and the Raiders had also recorded a version of "Louie Louie." The battle over radio airplay did not last long as the Kingsmen's version quickly became more popular. As a result, Jerry Dennon, a record producer from Seattle, Washington, heard the song. He decided to press a few hundred copies of the single on his regional record label, Jerdon.

That same year, the recording made its way to Boston, where radio stations began to play it frequently. The exposure led Dennon to sign an agreement with Wand Records in New York for national distribution of the single, and it reached number two on the Billboard charts. As the popularity began to wane, a controversy surfaced. Parents began to question the lyrics in "Louie Louie." The record was banned in Indiana and other areas, and the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) conducted an official investigation into the lyrics. By the time the ban was lifted, the song and the band had achieved even greater exposure and success.

Before the end of 1963, the Kingsmen recorded a concert at The Chase nightclub in Milwaukee, Oregon. Wand took the recording and turned it into their debut album Kingsmen in Person. "Louie Louie" appeared on the album as well, but not in a true live version. Wand decided to have the group record the song in the studio and later add taped crowd noise to give the impression of a live concert.

Success Created Internal Struggle

By 1964, "Money" became the second single for the Kingsmen, although it did not reach the same heights of success as their first. Wand continued to reissue "Louie Louie" in 1964, 1965, and 1966. In 1964, Wand released Kingsmen, Vol. 2, and the band became the number one touring band in the United States. The rapid rise to success resulted in the breakup of the original lineup.

Easton and Mitchell continued performing and recording as one rendition of the Kingsmen while Ely attempted to form his own version of the group. In retaliation, Easton copyrighted the Kingsmen name, making it impossible for the other rendition to continue. Over the next two years, the Kingsmen toured and recorded such songs as "Little Latin Lupe Lu" and "The Jolly Green Giant," but they never regained their initial success.

J.D. Considine later wrote in Rolling Stone, "Not only was Jack Ely, the voice of 'Louie Louie,' forced out after that first hit, but apart from the Top Five novelty 'The Jolly Green Giant,' most of the Kingsmen's later output consisted of desperate attempts at recapturing the 'Louie Louie' magic."

In 1965, the Kingsmen set 56 consecutive attendance records in as many venues, which included colleges, ballrooms, arenas, state fairs, and dances. They also released Kingsmen, Vol. 3 and Kingsmen on Campus that same year and appeared on the soundtrack for the film How to Stuff a Wild Bikini. After the release of Up and Away in 1966, Easton left the band, and two years later, the band decided to discontinue performing.

In 1978, the Kingsmen discovered a reason to make a comeback. The movie Animal House was released in theaters and featured John Belushi performing his own adaptation of "Louie Louie" in the Kingsmen style. The Kingsmen's version was also played over the film's credits. The song's popularity quickly came rushing back. "Animal House not only was a phenomenally successful movie, but it also spawned the revival of the popularity of music from our era," singer Barry Curtis wrote on the band's website. "Kingsmen material, especially 'Louie Louie,' figured prominently in this movement."

Fought to Win Royalty Rights

Two years later, the Kingsmen regrouped and began touring again. In the early 1990s, Jack Ely regained some of his credit for the band's early work when he headlined the thirtieth anniversary Louie Louie tour. In 1993, the Kingsmen filed a lawsuit to claim rights to the band's 105 master recordings and rights to receive royalties on their music. The suit was against G.M.L. Records, the company that had purchased the catalog in 1984. The Kingsmen won the lawsuit, allowing them to receive royalties and maintain ownership of their recordings beginning in 1993.

In 1998, a federal appeals court upheld the lower court's ruling, and the United States Supreme Court refused to hear the case. The three-judge panel of the United States Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals wrote in its unanimous opinion: "The parties do not dispute that the Kingsmen never received a single penny of the considerable royalties that 'Louie Louie' has produced over the past 30 years."

From the formation of the Kingsmen in 1959 to the early twenty-first century, the group had 20 different members. Only guitarist Mike Mitchell remained throughout the band's career. Three of the members: Mitchell, Dick Peterson, and Barry Curtis have been together since 1963. In the 1990s, the band also included drummer Steve Peterson and Todd McPherson. The Kingsmen's version of "Louie Louie" appeared in several other movies, such as Quadrophenia, Coupe de Ville, Spaced Invaders, Naked Gun, Past Away, Dave, Jennifer 8, and Mr. Holland's Opus. Despite the lineup transformations and legal battles, the Kingsmen's music, and especially "Louie Louie," managed to help them earn a reputation as one of America's biggest party bands of the 1960s.

by Sonya Shelton"
_________________________
If you vote for government, you have no right to complain about what government does.

Top
#940096 --- 12/17/08 03:20 PM Re: NY State the iPod Tax [Re: roadguy]
Sovereign King Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/29/08
Posts: 3506
Loc: Auditioning on Broadway
If they cannot stay competitive as to how their customers get their music, oh well for them. If we found a way to get milk for free, easily would we feel bad for Byrne Dairy when they whine that we are not buying milk from them at $4 a gallon?

I love the commercials of the artists whining about us stealing from them... Honest to god I don't feel feel bad I'm not giving my hard earned money to someone who has more than I do... Be lucky I am downloading your music, that means I may buy a ticket to see you in concert...

FYI, someone signed to a big record label makes squat when they first sign off their initial record sales... They make their money by going on tour... So if you go to see them, you really are only ripping off the record companies. The record companies pay pay the money to promote the new artist to get the artists name out there... more and more these days you artists or bands going it lone and not with a big label. These artists are young and smart enough to know how to use the internet, myspace etc. to promote the free download of their music in hopes to get it out their to sell tickets to shows etc...

Top
#940100 --- 12/17/08 03:36 PM Re: NY State the iPod Tax [Re: Sovereign King]
roadguy Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 02/28/02
Posts: 1833
Loc: here
Originally Posted By: Sovereign King



FYI, someone signed to a big record label makes squat when they first sign off their initial record sales... They make their money by going on tour... So if you go to see them, you really are only ripping off the record companies. The record companies pay pay the money to promote the new artist to get the artists name out there... more and more these days you artists or bands going it lone and not with a big label. These artists are young and smart enough to know how to use the internet, myspace etc. to promote the free download of their music in hopes to get it out their to sell tickets to shows etc...


Hey King

Trust me I know more about the music business than you could hope to ever know.

I have tour managed major label artists, I know exactly how much money bands make on the road.

New bands DO NOT make money (profit) touring. If they make any money it is from merchandise sales.

Let me ask you something. If you made a product lets call it a "glass widget" and people could get them for free would you be ok with this?
_________________________
When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro.

Top
#940101 --- 12/17/08 03:38 PM Re: NY State the iPod Tax [Re: roadguy]
Bing Bong Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/12/08
Posts: 2482
Loc: the road to hell
Originally Posted By: roadguy
Phones, land or cell are taxed to death now. It's getting ridiculous. I'm waiting for them to go after Skype. It's only a matter of time.


Come on, now, you have to pay your fair share of the trillion-dollar bailout.
_________________________
Charter Member of the VM Smith Memorial Park Committee

Top
#940160 --- 12/17/08 05:40 PM Re: NY State the iPod Tax [Re: roadguy]
Sovereign King Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/29/08
Posts: 3506
Loc: Auditioning on Broadway
Originally Posted By: roadguy
Hey King

Trust me I know more about the music business than you could hope to ever know.

I have tour managed major label artists, I know exactly how much money bands make on the road.

New bands DO NOT make money (profit) touring. If they make any money it is from merchandise sales.


Haha when you try to sound cocky about it, you sound like an idiot!

Maybe your from the old school, and listen to what the label tells you...

I'm not talking new artists like any local yahoo's that decide to start a band and go on tour... ...but yes with NEW YOUNGER that have the MTV level, who go on tour playing in arenas and what not are making huge money and profits touring... Maybe that's the problem you worked with the label and bands with a label on tour...

For someone who claims this was his business, you surely don't know much about it anymore...

Top
#940172 --- 12/17/08 05:49 PM Re: NY State the iPod Tax [Re: roadguy]
Sovereign King Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/29/08
Posts: 3506
Loc: Auditioning on Broadway
Originally Posted By: roadguy
Let me ask you something. If you made a product lets call it a "glass widget" and people could get them for free would you be ok with this?


You are looking at this wrong... old School (is it ok if i call you old school, because you don't seem to know what is going nowa days)...

If I make and manage a product called widgetts and i sell 20 of these widgettes for $15, and the consumers are not buying them from me because they pick and choose individual widgettes they like for free.... I can do two things 1) whine and mone that people should buy widgettes from me... or 2) I can do something about it. Realize that people are not going to buy my wigettes when they can get them free and find other ways to make money off of my widggettes... If I sit in an office and manage widdgettes and money I also would not be surprised when the kids making the widgettes go out on their own and give their widgettes away for free (distributing them, putting their name out)... Instead of paying me to distribute them... ...and put on shows themselves, maybe not as fancy, but rely on shows for income and merchandise... Have I bought a CD from a store where the artist may get change.... Nope. Have I bought a ticket to a show, and if I know/or find out they are on an indy label I will buy a cd from them knowing they will get the money? You bet.

It's a new world, so I am sorry if I don't want to sit here and listen to someone who worked tours for a label tell me I don't know what I am talking about. ...because it is very obvious you and the label don't know how to stay competitive in a new world... Deal with it!

Top
#940178 --- 12/17/08 05:59 PM Re: NY State the iPod Tax [Re: Bing Bong]
Sovereign King Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/29/08
Posts: 3506
Loc: Auditioning on Broadway
Originally Posted By: Bing Bong
Come on, now, you have to pay your fair share of the trillion-dollar bailout.


I knew there would be national repercussions to free checking.

Top
#940183 --- 12/17/08 06:05 PM Re: NY State the iPod Tax [Re: Sovereign King]
roadguy Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 02/28/02
Posts: 1833
Loc: here
Originally Posted By: Sovereign King


Haha when you try to sound cocky about it, you sound like an idiot!

Maybe your from the old school, and listen to what the label tells you...

I'm not talking new artists like any local yahoo's that decide to start a band and go on tour... ...but yes with NEW YOUNGER that have the MTV level, who go on tour playing in arenas and what not are making huge money and profits touring... Maybe that's the problem you worked with the label and bands with a label on tour...

For someone who claims this was his business, you surely don't know much about it anymore...


Cocky. You are one to talk. You post all over these boards like you know it all about everything. I would like to know what you do for a living.

Not that it matters but I just spent the last year and half working with a band who sold over 2 million downloads in the US alone.

Are they making money touring? Yes and it has taken 12 years to do it. They have made living in the business, mostly because they have sold CD's. They have only really started to make money tour, because they started to sell CD's and people came out to see them.

No they are not millionaires.

One of the other artists I work for makes money. You know how? CD sales and has sold several songs that are used in national tv commercials. He is a technically a solo artist even though he is billed as a group. He has to pay weekly salaries for the hired band and crew. Most of the tour profits come from merchandise sales.

This artist has two platinum albums and does not tour arenas. He has been at it for 10 years.

If you are headlining arena's you are making money, but you have also sold a lot of CD's.

I would to know what "new younger" groups you are talking about? I would bet they have sold several million CD's if they are playing arena's.

The labels do not dictate what I do in my job. I do not answer to them. I answer to the band and their management.

Anyway getting back to the point of this thread.

The state is getting out of control with all the taxing.
_________________________
When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro.

Top
#940193 --- 12/17/08 06:15 PM Re: NY State the iPod Tax [Re: roadguy]
Sovereign King Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/29/08
Posts: 3506
Loc: Auditioning on Broadway
Originally Posted By: roadguy
Cocky. You are one to talk. You post all over these boards like you know it all about everything. I would like to know what you do for a living.


man you don't pay attention do you? I'm a King by trade as well as a part time internet troll...

Top
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >