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#934285 --- 12/09/08 02:14 PM Judge: Cayugas can't sell tax-free cigarettes
trump Offline
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Registered: 11/15/08
Posts: 887
Loc: USA
http://www.syracuse.com/news/index.ssf/2008/12/judge_cayugas_cant_sell_tax_fr.html

Scott Rapp / The Post-Standard Tuesday December 09, 2008, 1:18 PM

State Supreme Court Judge Kenneth R. Fisher has rejected a request by the Cayuga Indian nation for an injunction barring Cayuga and Seneca counties from enforcing state tax laws regulating the sales of cigarettes.

The judge's ruling was released today.

Cayuga County legislator Raymond Lockwood said he has not seen the decision but said it "was very favorable to us." He was notified by the county's law firm, Harris Beach, of Rochester.

Sheriff's deputies in the two counties seized the cigarettes and records in coordinated simultaneous raids carried out two days before Thanksgiving.

The two stores have not sold cigarettes since the raids, but sales of cigars and other tobacco products have continued. Those tobacco products are regulated by a different section of state tax law and were not part of the county action.

The Cayugas had asked the judge to bar the counties from trying to enforce state law requiring the Indian nation to pay excise and sales tax due on cigarettes at the Cayuga's two LakeSide Trading stores, one in Union Springs and the other in Seneca Falls. The Cayugas also wanted the more than 17,000 cartons of cigarettes returned, along with business records.

Eleven lawyers made their cases in court last week.

It was clear then the case before Fisher would come down to this:

Do the Cayugas have sovereign nation rights to sell tax-free cigarettes at their LakeSide Trading gas station and convenience stores in Union Springs and Seneca Falls?

The lawyers representing the counties collectively argued that the nation lost sovereign rights in 2005 when the U.S. Supreme Court rejected a parallel land-claim case involving the Oneida Indian Nation. Later, a federal appeals court dismissed the Cayugas' land claim on similar grounds.

Lawyers for the Cayugas collectively disagreed and said the top court ruling did not disestablish their reservation, which they said still comprises 64,000 acres of ancestral homeland around the north end of Cayuga Lake.

They said the land on which the nation's stores sit is considered under state law to be a qualified reservation, which the lawyers said permits the Cayugas to sell tax-free cigarettes and other goods.

Lawyers for the Cayugas also argued that the counties are trying to enforce a state tax law that was enjoined from being enforced two years ago.

The cigarette tax issue was rekindled last month when sheriff's deputies from both counties raided the two stores and seized all of the nation's 17,600 cartons of cigarettes for not paying about $485,000 in state excise taxes on them. The excise tax does not include state sales tax.

District attorneys in both counties are considering filing criminal charges.
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#934336 --- 12/09/08 03:27 PM Re: Judge: Cayugas can't sell tax-free cigarettes [Re: trump]
grinch Offline
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Registered: 08/28/01
Posts: 4617
Loc: New York State
Congratulations to both DA's and the sheriff's of both counties for taking this action.

If the Cayuga have any mortgages on property they have purchased we may see some foreclosures as their source of income has been effetively reduced.

Property taxes will also be due and payable.

Reading through the Judge's ruling checkerboarding is mentioned several times, also the fact the lands in question have been under NYS and local jurisdiction for over 200 years. The question of land being taken into trust not fully addressed in this ruling as that went beyond what the court was asked to consider in this case.

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#934345 --- 12/09/08 03:42 PM Re: Judge: Cayugas can't sell tax-free cigarettes [Re: grinch]
Rigatoni Offline
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Registered: 01/26/07
Posts: 163
Loc: On a plate
Originally Posted By: grinch

Reading through the Judge's ruling checkerboarding is mentioned several times, also the fact the lands in question have been under NYS and local jurisdiction for over 200 years. The question of land being taken into trust not fully addressed in this ruling as that went beyond what the court was asked to consider in this case.

Where did you see that? There was no mention of "checkerboarding " in todays ruling. You are probably referring to the Sherrill decision vs the Oneida Nation, which has nothing to do with this case.

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#934347 --- 12/09/08 03:45 PM Re: Judge: Cayugas can't sell tax-free cigarettes [Re: Rigatoni]
bluezone Offline
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Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32556
Loc: USA
Time to confiscate ALL the land that they purchased as the money was gained ILLEGALLY.

Will the operators be arrested and jailed?


The little town of Sherrill.
The little county of Seneca.
The little county of Cayuga.


Defeats the the tribe and enforces the laws.


.
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#934401 --- 12/09/08 04:27 PM Re: Judge: Cayugas can't sell tax-free cigarettes [Re: Rigatoni]
bluezone Offline
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Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32556
Loc: USA
Time to chain the doors closed as the gas is being sold illegally also.





.
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#934407 --- 12/09/08 04:31 PM Re: Judge: Cayugas can't sell tax-free cigarettes [Re: Rigatoni]
grinch Offline
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Registered: 08/28/01
Posts: 4617
Loc: New York State
Originally Posted By: Rigatoni
Originally Posted By: grinch

Reading through the Judge's ruling checkerboarding is mentioned several times, also the fact the lands in question have been under NYS and local jurisdiction for over 200 years. The question of land being taken into trust not fully addressed in this ruling as that went beyond what the court was asked to consider in this case.

Where did you see that? There was no mention of "checkerboarding " in todays ruling. You are probably referring to the Sherrill decision vs the Oneida Nation, which has nothing to do with this case.


Here is the Judge's ruling, all 30 pages.

http://blog.syracuse.com/news/2008/12/Cayuga_Indian_Nation_v_Gould.pdf

Read the judges ruling at the website I posted, not the newspaper articles. Go to the source, checkerboarding is mentioned in the ruling by the Judge. He also mentions the Sherill decision and did use that in his ruling concerning whether or not the land in question was a "qualified reservation" His conclusion, it is not a reservation. And yes it has a bearing on this case. In fact the injunctiion the Cayugas sued for was based on their assertion the two stores were on a "qualified Reservation". The Sherill decision dispelled that theory and was cited by the Judge as a reason he ruled against them.


Edited by grinch (12/09/08 04:35 PM)

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#934436 --- 12/09/08 05:00 PM Re: Judge: Cayugas can't sell tax-free cigarettes [Re: grinch]
bluezone Offline
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Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32556
Loc: USA
Will the tribes attorneys have to return all the money that they were paid as the money was all illegal?



.
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#934508 --- 12/09/08 06:58 PM Re: Judge: Cayugas can't sell tax-free cigarettes [Re: bluezone]
justaxme Offline
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Registered: 08/31/05
Posts: 2351
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Time for phase II:

"Both Seneca County District Attorney Richard Swinehart and Cayuga County District Attorney Jon Budelmann agreed not to file felony tax evasion charges against the nation until after Fisher issues a decision."

By: Nate Robson / The Citizen Dec 3

Yet the Governor feels obliged to negotiate? What's he negotiating, his golden parachute and retirement benefits for sucking up to the tribes?


Edited by justaxme (12/09/08 06:58 PM)
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#934796 --- 12/10/08 06:56 AM Re: Judge: Cayugas can't sell tax-free cigarettes [Re: justaxme]
bluezone Offline
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Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32556
Loc: USA
Have they stopped selling gas?



.
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#934871 --- 12/10/08 08:42 AM Re: Judge: Cayugas can't sell tax-free cigarettes [Re: bluezone]
Offline
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Can the county bring charges under RICO?

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#934887 --- 12/10/08 09:24 AM Re: Judge: Cayugas can't sell tax-free cigarettes [Re: ]
trump Offline
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Registered: 11/15/08
Posts: 887
Loc: USA
http://www.auburnpub.com/articles/2008/12/10/local_news/news03.txt

Judge: Raids on Cayugas were legal
By Nate Robson / The Citizen

Tuesday, December 9, 2008 11:40 PM EST

AUBURN - A felony investigation into two Cayuga Nation-owned businesses accused of felony tax evasion will continue after a judge ruled on Tuesday that sheriff's deputies in Cayuga and Seneca counties legally raided the stores on Nov. 25.

After deputies seized nearly 3.5 million untaxed cigarettes, lawyers representing the tribe filed a lawsuit against the district attorneys and sheriffs in both counties, arguing the raid violated the tribe's sovereign nation status, that there were no enforceable tax laws to support a criminal investigation and that any seized evidence had to be returned.

But in a written decision, state Supreme Court Judge Kenneth Fisher, who signed the search warrant used in the raids, said the two Lake Side Trading convenience stores located in Union Springs and Seneca Falls were not located on a recognized reservation and that the businesses could be held accountable for violating state excise tax laws.

While the tribe will appeal the decision, Cayuga County District Attorney Jon Budelmann and Seneca County District Attorney Richard Swinehart said the ruling allowed them to pursue a felony indictment.

“The evidence is all collected and the analysis is all done,” Budelmann said. “I intend to present the matter to the Cayuga County grand jury ... Ultimately it will be in the grand jury's hands.”

In an e-mail, Dan French, an attorney for the tribe, said he was surprised by the decision and believed it went against several state and federal laws.

“The Cayuga Nation believes that the court's unprecedented decision is squarely at odds with both state and federal law, and the nation intends to seek a review in the appellate courts,” French said. “In the meantime, the nation intends to comply with today's decision while it seeks to vindicate its rights on appeal.”

The tribe, along with other Indian nations in New York, have claimed they are exempt from collecting sales and excise taxes on their property because their businesses are protected by their sovereign nation status.

But Budelmann said he believed the ruling would stand if it went to appeal.

“This is a 30-page, well-written and researched decision,” Budelmann said. “I really don't see it being overturned. It goes along with several other federal and state court rulings regarding this issue.”

In his decision, Fisher said that while state tax laws did recognize the Cayuga Nation as a tax exempt tribe, they didn't recognize any Cayuga-owned reservations.

Even though the land that the two businesses are located on are owned by the nation, Fisher also said they were not exempt from tax laws or recognized as a reservation because they were purchased from private individuals on the open market.

“Granting the relief demanded by the Indian Nation would upset New York's long exercised sovereignty over the area, creating a checkerboard of alternating state and tribal jurisdiction in New York state (that) would seriously burden the administration of state and local governments and would adversely effect landowners neighboring the tribal patches,” Fisher said.

Fisher also ruled that the state's inaction to enforce tax laws did not mean those laws could not be enforced by local district attorneys.

When oral arguments on the legality of the raid were heard in a Cayuga County courtroom on Dec. 3, Budelmann said he saw district attorneys from several other counties that have been dealing with tax issues with their local tribes.

With several counties calling him to find out what they need to do to investigate their local tribes, Cayuga County Sheriff David Gould said he attributed the successful raids in Cayuga and Seneca counties to the cooperation between all of the involved law enforcement agencies.


But despite the success of the raids and the support from a court ruling, Budelmann and Swinehart said their work was just beginning.

“It's far from over; it's just the beginning quite frankly,” he said. “We are now just past the search and seizure stage.”
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#934889 --- 12/10/08 09:29 AM Re: Judge: Cayugas can't sell tax-free cigarettes [Re: trump]
bluezone Offline
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Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32556
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: trump
http://www.auburnpub.com/articles/2008/12/10/local_news/news03.txt

Judge: Raids on Cayugas were legal
By Nate Robson / The Citizen

Tuesday, December 9, 2008 11:40 PM EST

AUBURN - [b]A felony investigation into two Cayuga Nation-owned businesses...



I would be worried if I were Halftown or Twogun.




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#934892 --- 12/10/08 09:35 AM Re: Judge: Cayugas can't sell tax-free cigarettes [Re: trump]
bluezone Offline
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Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32556
Loc: USA
And just think a short time ago the tribe was calling others racists for having the laws applied.


.
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"OUR COUNTRY IS IN MOURNING, A SOLDIER DIED TODAY."

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#934999 --- 12/10/08 01:00 PM Re: Judge: Cayugas can't sell tax-free cigarettes [Re: bluezone]
trump Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/15/08
Posts: 887
Loc: USA
Shutting down Lakeside cigarette sales is already helping the Seneca County tax situation!

http://www.fltimes.com/articles/2008/12/10/news/doc493fdbf8262bd005400247.txt

After long night, Seneca board OKs 2009 budget
$17,800 raise for DA among sticking points

By DAVID L. SHAW
Wednesday, December 10, 2008 11:06 AM CST

WATERLOO — It wasn’t easy, but the Seneca County Board of Supervisors Tuesday adopted a 2009 budget that shows a 1.3 percent increase in spending and no increase in the tax levy.

Dresser said the shutdown of cigarettes sales at the Cayuga Indian Nation-owned convenience store in Seneca Falls has led to increased cigarette sales at non-Indian stores, thus increasing sales tax revenue to the county.
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#935062 --- 12/10/08 03:17 PM Re: Judge: Cayugas can't sell tax-free cigarettes [Re: ]
Rich_Tallcot Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/19/03
Posts: 5565
Loc: Greeneville, TN
Originally Posted By: Festus!
Can the county bring charges under RICO?
Booomburg was authorized by the Second Circuit to use RICO against the L.I. tribes and Washington State is using RICO against the Yakama. Anything is possible. The right connections have to be made to proceed with such an action. Basically, I think all that has to be proven is that sales to a non-tribal citizen were being resold. That may or may not have been done. Once applied, tribes have NO sovereign immunity from it. BUT, the tribe already opened the door to the courts by filing the initial lawsuit. Furthermore, these laws apply TO reservations. Their arguments claiming the laws do not apply because of claimed reservation status are hollow. The fact this is NOT a reservation only makes the situation more obvious, except for those that refuse to accept the obvious.

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#935515 --- 12/11/08 08:00 AM Re: Judge: Cayugas can't sell tax-free cigarettes [Re: Rich_Tallcot]
bluezone Offline
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Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32556
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
... The fact this is NOT a reservation only makes the situation more obvious, except for those that refuse to accept the obvious.


The tribe is the one "breaking" the treaties.
It was interesting to see tribal supporters with posters saying "honor our treaties" at the judges ruling.
More propaganda by the tribes as they are violating the laws/treaties.
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#936233 --- 12/12/08 04:42 AM Re: Judge: Cayugas can't sell tax-free cigarettes [Re: bluezone]
justaxme Offline
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Registered: 08/31/05
Posts: 2351
Loc: On top?
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Have they stopped selling gas?.


Yes they are shut down. Evidently they can't seem to make a go of it by obeying the rules every other convenient store has to.
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#936532 --- 12/12/08 01:03 PM Re: Judge: Cayugas can't sell tax-free cigarettes [Re: trump]
bluezone Offline
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Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32556
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: trump


District attorneys in both counties are considering filing criminal charges.




It would be done with anyone else breaking the law to this extent.



.
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#967129 --- 01/26/09 07:38 AM Re: Judge: Cayugas can't sell tax-free cigarettes [Re: justaxme]
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32556
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: justaxme
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Have they stopped selling gas?.


Yes they are shut down. Evidently they can't seem to make a go of it by obeying the rules every other convenient store has to.



Wonder how other tax paying stores survive?
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#967980 --- 01/27/09 10:50 AM Re: Judge: Cayugas can't sell tax-free cigarettes [Re: justaxme]
bluezone Offline
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Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32556
Loc: USA
Paterson needs a backbone.
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#1001369 --- 03/30/09 12:43 PM Re: Judge: Cayugas can't sell tax-free cigarettes [Re: Rich_Tallcot]
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32556
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
Originally Posted By: Festus!
Can the county bring charges under RICO?
Booomburg was authorized by the Second Circuit to use RICO against the L.I. tribes and Washington State is using RICO against the Yakama. Anything is possible. The right connections have to be made to proceed with such an action. Basically, I think all that has to be proven is that sales to a non-tribal citizen were being resold. That may or may not have been done. Once applied, tribes have NO sovereign immunity from it. BUT, the tribe already opened the door to the courts by filing the initial lawsuit. Furthermore, these laws apply TO reservations. Their arguments claiming the laws do not apply because of claimed reservation status are hollow. The fact this is NOT a reservation only makes the situation more obvious, except for those that refuse to accept the obvious.



;\)
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#1001617 --- 03/31/09 04:11 AM Re: Judge: Cayugas can't sell tax-free cigarettes [Re: bluezone]
justaxme Offline
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Registered: 08/31/05
Posts: 2351
Loc: On top?
Yesterday I heard Lakeside ads on FL1 Radio advertise their savings on tobacco products and how concerned they are about our well being during this recent economic downturn. Yeah right.
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#1001713 --- 03/31/09 06:47 AM Re: Judge: Cayugas can't sell tax-free cigarettes [Re: justaxme]
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32556
Loc: USA
Is that why the tribe is costing the county/taxpayers millions of dollars of lost revenue each year?
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"OUR COUNTRY IS IN MOURNING, A SOLDIER DIED TODAY."

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#1001780 --- 03/31/09 09:42 AM Re: Judge: Cayugas can't sell tax-free cigarettes [Re: justaxme]
trump Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/15/08
Posts: 887
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: justaxme
Yesterday I heard Lakeside ads on FL1 Radio advertise their savings on tobacco products and how concerned they are about our well being during this recent economic downturn. Yeah right.


I heard that this morning. That is truly unbelievable.
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#1001893 --- 03/31/09 01:33 PM Re: Judge: Cayugas can't sell tax-free cigarettes [Re: trump]
bluezone Offline
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Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32556
Loc: USA
So does that mean they are still selling the ilegal cigs?
or is this just false advertising?
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#1001896 --- 03/31/09 01:35 PM Re: Judge: Cayugas can't sell tax-free cigarettes [Re: bluezone]
trump Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/15/08
Posts: 887
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: bluezone
So does that mean they are still selling the ilegal cigs?
or is this just false advertising?


The ad doesn't say cigarettes. It says tobacco products.
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#1001902 --- 03/31/09 01:42 PM Re: Judge: Cayugas can't sell tax-free cigarettes [Re: trump]
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32556
Loc: USA
Sounds like they are grasping for any coin they can get their hands on. I saw an advertisement in a local paper the other day and it did say cigarettes.
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#1001956 --- 03/31/09 02:52 PM Re: Judge: Cayugas can't sell tax-free cigarettes [Re: bluezone]
BJ Radford Offline
Member

Registered: 03/30/09
Posts: 314
Loc: Geneva
I would appreciate knowing where you saw an ad advertising cigarettes, as I am not aware of one.
We are advertising tobacco products as we are still selling tobacco products, just not cigarettes!

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#1001961 --- 03/31/09 02:57 PM Re: Judge: Cayugas can't sell tax-free cigarettes [Re: BJ Radford]
trump Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/15/08
Posts: 887
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: BJ Radford
I would appreciate knowing where you saw an ad advertising cigarettes, as I am not aware of one.
We are advertising tobacco products as we are still selling tobacco products, just not cigarettes!


Are you collecting sales tax on any of these tobacco products or are you undercutting other merchants who must collect these sales taxes?
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#1001967 --- 03/31/09 03:19 PM Re: Judge: Cayugas can't sell tax-free cigarettes [Re: trump]
BJ Radford Offline
Member

Registered: 03/30/09
Posts: 314
Loc: Geneva
Wouldn't it be more interesting to ask a question that you didn't already know the answer to?
As you know, LakeSide Trading does not collect or remit sales tax.

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#1001968 --- 03/31/09 03:21 PM Re: Judge: Cayugas can't sell tax-free cigarettes [Re: BJ Radford]
trump Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/15/08
Posts: 887
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: BJ Radford
Wouldn't it be more interesting to ask a question that you didn't already know the answer to?
As you know, LakeSide Trading does not collect or remit sales tax.


And you think that is fair? I think that is outrageous.
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#1001972 --- 03/31/09 03:32 PM Re: Judge: Cayugas can't sell tax-free cigarettes [Re: trump]
BJ Radford Offline
Member

Registered: 03/30/09
Posts: 314
Loc: Geneva
As I stated in an earlier post, I am not interested in discussing my(or anyone's elses!)opinions on these forums. I have no interest in attempting to convince people that my religion is better, my political party affiliation is the right one, or that my views on any subject should be someone else's views. Actually, I'm offended when someone thinks their thoughts or views are so damn correct that I should be subjected to listening to them without asking for them. I do understand not everyone feels this way and these forums are a great way for people to express those views. I'm choosing to limit my involvement to merely trying to provide matters of fact if indeed people are interested or incorrect. Sorry if that dissappoints!

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#1001995 --- 03/31/09 04:17 PM Re: Judge: Cayugas can't sell tax-free cigarettes [Re: BJ Radford]
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32556
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: BJ Radford
I would appreciate knowing where you saw an ad advertising cigarettes, as I am not aware of one.
We are advertising tobacco products as we are still selling tobacco products, just not cigarettes!



Finger Lakes Times
Tuesday March 24, 2009
page-9B
Upper left corner


Lakeside Trading
An enterprise of the Cayuga Nation
LOWEST PRICES ON CIGARETTES & GAS

RT.90 UNION SPRINGS RT.89 SENECA FALLS



(usually it is a full page ad)
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#1001996 --- 03/31/09 04:18 PM Re: Judge: Cayugas can't sell tax-free cigarettes [Re: BJ Radford]
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32556
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: BJ Radford

As you know, LakeSide Trading does not collect or remit sales tax.


The reason would be?
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#1002002 --- 03/31/09 04:26 PM Re: Judge: Cayugas can't sell tax-free cigarettes [Re: BJ Radford]
SilverFox Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/19/00
Posts: 6485
Loc: Waterloo
Sorry, but when you came on this forum and identified yourself you openned yourself up to responses from all other posters. Disappointed? Not at all. Expected of you? Definitely.
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#1002006 --- 03/31/09 04:32 PM Re: Judge: Cayugas can't sell tax-free cigarettes [Re: BJ Radford]
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32556
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: BJ Radford
I'm choosing to limit my involvement to merely trying to provide matters of fact if indeed people are interested or incorrect.


Facts are always welcome and will garner interest.



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"OUR COUNTRY IS IN MOURNING, A SOLDIER DIED TODAY."

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#1002065 --- 03/31/09 06:15 PM Re: Judge: Cayugas can't sell tax-free cigarettes [Re: BJ Radford]
trump Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/15/08
Posts: 887
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: BJ Radford
As I stated in an earlier post, I am not interested in discussing my(or anyone's elses!)opinions on these forums. I have no interest in attempting to convince people that my religion is better, my political party affiliation is the right one, or that my views on any subject should be someone else's views. Actually, I'm offended when someone thinks their thoughts or views are so damn correct that I should be subjected to listening to them without asking for them. I do understand not everyone feels this way and these forums are a great way for people to express those views. I'm choosing to limit my involvement to merely trying to provide matters of fact if indeed people are interested or incorrect. Sorry if that dissappoints!


OK. Let me ask you some questions. Are you an American citizen? Do you believe your reservation around Cayuga Lake is a sovereign nation? I believe the Seneca County government came and and validated the accuracy of your gas pumps? Why would you allow another nation to to do that? I believe an American anti-smoking organization caught you selling cigs to minors? And you paid a fine to another nation? The USA. Is that correct?
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#1002071 --- 03/31/09 06:49 PM Re: Judge: Cayugas can't sell tax-free cigarettes [Re: trump]
SFisWonderful Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/30/08
Posts: 1928
Loc: NEW YORK
Originally Posted By: trump
Originally Posted By: BJ Radford
As I stated in an earlier post, I am not interested in discussing my(or anyone's elses!)opinions on these forums. I have no interest in attempting to convince people that my religion is better, my political party affiliation is the right one, or that my views on any subject should be someone else's views. Actually, I'm offended when someone thinks their thoughts or views are so damn correct that I should be subjected to listening to them without asking for them. I do understand not everyone feels this way and these forums are a great way for people to express those views. I'm choosing to limit my involvement to merely trying to provide matters of fact if indeed people are interested or incorrect. Sorry if that dissappoints!


OK. Let me ask you some questions. Are you an American citizen? Do you believe your reservation around Cayuga Lake is a sovereign nation? I believe the Seneca County government came and and validated the accuracy of your gas pumps? Why would you allow another nation to to do that? I believe an American anti-smoking organization caught you selling cigs to minors? And you paid a fine to another nation? The USA. Is that correct?

And. . .
-If you want to be independent of the United States of America, why are the tribal governments always looking for government "injection" monies?

-How do you feel the United States of America should maintain its infrastructure without tax dollars? If everyone chose to not pay taxes, how would the infrastructure be maintained? Do you feel it's ok for some to pay but others get a free ride?

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#1002218 --- 04/01/09 03:32 AM Re: Judge: Cayugas can't sell tax-free cigarettes [Re: SFisWonderful]
BJ Radford Offline
Member

Registered: 03/30/09
Posts: 314
Loc: Geneva
Blue zone- I appreciate you answering my question re. the ad for cigarettes. I had forgotten all about the ad you correctly refer to. It's part of the NASCAR page and was booked back in the Fall for the whole season. I'll get it corrected today.

Silver Fox- You are correct- my presence here was bound to elicit all sorts of comments. But as I stated originally, I choose to only post matters of fact. Glad I not only didn't dissappoint you, but behaved as you would reasonably expect me to based on that original post.

Trump- Yes I am an American citizen. The use of the word belief in your next question negates my willingness to answer it. Yes Seneca County DOH sent a minor into LakeSide Trading and the minor was sold cigarettes. A cashier made an error. I paid the fine. Yes - Seneca County Weights and Measures certifies the pumps at LakeSide Trading.

SFisWonderful- If you want facts I'm your girl. It appears though what you want is an opportunity to discuss your opinions. Your right to do and my right not to do. For that you will have to look elsewhere.

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#1002328 --- 04/01/09 06:40 AM Re: Judge: Cayugas can't sell tax-free cigarettes [Re: BJ Radford]
justaxme Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/31/05
Posts: 2351
Loc: On top?
WOW!!!

"Yes Seneca County DOH sent a minor into LakeSide Trading and the minor was sold cigarettes."

That's unbelievable!! How does someone make a "mistake" like that? I think selling cigs to minors is no mistake. It's maybe incompetence, knowingly selling to a minor or feeling above the law. Do they sell booze too?
_________________________
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#1002339 --- 04/01/09 06:57 AM Re: Judge: Cayugas can't sell tax-free cigarettes [Re: BJ Radford]
HighC Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 03/09/08
Posts: 17
Loc: Out of my mind
Since today is April 1, Did Lakeside complete the required Federal Floor Stock Inventory?

Are you planning on remitting payment for the Federal floor stock tax on Aug 1, 2009?
The tobacco increases are as follows:
· Cigarettes: 62 cents per pack
· Large Cigars: up to $.40 per large cigar
· Little Cigars: 96 cents per pack
· Pipe Tobacco: $1.71 per pound
· Roll-Your-Own Tobacco: $23.53 per pound
· Chewing Tobacco: 30.5 cents per pound
· Snuff: 91.5 cents per pound

For those who are not aware, this is a federal excise tax increase that is going to fund childrens health care (SCHIP). This is a tax the manufacturers pay and build into the price of their product. The floor tax is to retrieve the money from product already in retail.

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#1002377 --- 04/01/09 08:19 AM Re: Judge: Cayugas can't sell tax-free cigarettes [Re: justaxme]
BJ Radford Offline
Member

Registered: 03/30/09
Posts: 314
Loc: Geneva
A very good, hard working cashier made an error, as I said. I'm surprised you find that so hard to believe. Scan back through some of the past issues of the Finger Lakes Times. You will see where other cashiers at other stores have made the same error. It is usually on page six and is just a couple of sentences - not front page news. It would be hard for our cashiers to sell booze to a minor, or anyone else!

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#1002378 --- 04/01/09 08:19 AM Re: Judge: Cayugas can't sell tax-free cigarettes [Re: HighC]
BJ Radford Offline
Member

Registered: 03/30/09
Posts: 314
Loc: Geneva
LakeSide Trading has always, and as far as I know, will continue to pay federal excise taxes on cigarettes.

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#1002388 --- 04/01/09 08:47 AM Re: Judge: Cayugas can't sell tax-free cigarettes [Re: BJ Radford]
trump Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/15/08
Posts: 887
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: BJ Radford
Trump- Yes I am an American citizen. The use of the word belief in your next question negates my willingness to answer it. Yes Seneca County DOH sent a minor into LakeSide Trading and the minor was sold cigarettes. A cashier made an error. I paid the fine. Yes - Seneca County Weights and Measures certifies the pumps at LakeSide Trading.

New York charges a 4% sales tax. Seneca County adds on a 4% sales tax. The Seneca County sales tax is part of the county income to support Seneca DOH and Seneca County Weights and Measures. Therefore you use these Seneca County services yet refuse to pay your fair share? How in the heck do you justify this in your own mind? You are cheating on other businesses and other people that pay that tax. I see no other way to look at it. You are trying to play both ends against the middle.

Examples have been posted on here for businesses run by white people that have been closed down to their failure to pay their sales tax. There is absolutely no reason these laws should not apply to everyone equally. Is there?

A while ago someone posted a comment on here that 200 years ago black people in America were treated much worse than Indians were. So now would it make sense for President Obama to declare that black people don't have to pay all the taxes that white people do? Of course not. Americas tax laws apply equally to everyone. If you are not paying all the taxes due, you are not a good American citizen.

I could probably come up with a lot more questions to ask you but why should I bother? You have already showed me that you run an illegal operation. The only thing I don't understand is why the NY state government and the federal government let you go on breaking the law day after day year after year.
_________________________
http://www.nocayugalandintotrust.net

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#1002389 --- 04/01/09 08:48 AM Re: Judge: Cayugas can't sell tax-free cigarettes [Re: BJ Radford]
trump Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/15/08
Posts: 887
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: BJ Radford
LakeSide Trading has always, and as far as I know, will continue to pay federal excise taxes on cigarettes.


So your operation picks and chooses which taxes they want to pay? nice. I bet we all wish we could do that.
_________________________
http://www.nocayugalandintotrust.net

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#1002396 --- 04/01/09 09:07 AM Re: Judge: Cayugas can't sell tax-free cigarettes [Re: trump]
SilverFox Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/19/00
Posts: 6485
Loc: Waterloo
I may be wrong but I don't think they have a choice on the Federal Excise tax. I believe that is collected at the distributor level and not left to the retailer.

BJ, the only facts you are providing are the twisted brain washed facts provided by your employer. Others on the forums had provided documented facts backed up by State and Federal courts that you continue to deny and don't want to hear.

No, I am not surprised or disappointed in your twisted replies.I expected exactly that from you. We all knew that is why you came on the forums. If you choose to believe the twisted truths as presented by theses Cayuga "Nation" wannabees that is certainly your right. I only hope the courts continue to see the real truth through balony the Cayugas are spreading and enforce the laws as established equally.
_________________________



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#1002415 --- 04/01/09 09:28 AM Re: Judge: Cayugas can't sell tax-free cigarettes [Re: BJ Radford]
HighC Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 03/09/08
Posts: 17
Loc: Out of my mind
Originally Posted By: BJ Radford
LakeSide Trading has always, and as far as I know, will continue to pay federal excise taxes on cigarettes.


My question was "Are you planning on remitting payment for the Federal floor stock tax on Aug 1, 2009?"

The Tobacco Excise tax is normally taxed at the manufacturer level. Retailers are to remit the increased tax rate to the federal government on the March 31 floor stock inventory.

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#1002462 --- 04/01/09 11:02 AM Re: Judge: Cayugas can't sell tax-free cigarettes [Re: BJ Radford]
justaxme Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/31/05
Posts: 2351
Loc: On top?
Originally Posted By: BJ Radford
A very good, hard working cashier made an error, as I said. I'm surprised you find that so hard to believe. Scan back through some of the past issues of the Finger Lakes Times. You will see where other cashiers at other stores have made the same error. It is usually on page six and is just a couple of sentences - not front page news. It would be hard for our cashiers to sell booze to a minor, or anyone else!


Enlighten me. How does that happen? You ask for proof of age and do the math. Was there a math "mistake"? As far as others go, they're just as bad.
_________________________
I'm Justaxme, and I approved this message.

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#1002499 --- 04/01/09 12:39 PM Re: Judge: Cayugas can't sell tax-free cigarettes [Re: HighC]
SilverFox Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/19/00
Posts: 6485
Loc: Waterloo
Thank you for your explanation. I appreciate it. \:\)
_________________________



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#1002502 --- 04/01/09 12:58 PM Re: Judge: Cayugas can't sell tax-free cigarettes [Re: SilverFox]
Code Red Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/17/06
Posts: 6683
Loc: Out of my mind....
A math mistake, very likley. Over the years they have been paid, and paid, and paid some more, for land they only had use of. Maybe not a math problem but an over sight. If I had so much sweetness and sunshine pumped up my backside, that my eyes glowed, like some of the people feeling sorry for the Cayugas. I wouldn't be able to see their ID to proof them. You believe what you want to believe and I believe what I believe. But your eyes are glowing, and I'm not going to bend over for some of what you got.

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#1002507 --- 04/01/09 01:11 PM Re: Judge: Cayugas can't sell tax-free cigarettes [Re: BJ Radford]
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32556
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: BJ Radford
LakeSide Trading has always, and as far as I know, will continue to pay federal excise taxes on cigarettes.


Did the tribe not fail to convince the Judge that the reservation still exists?
Or did the tribe blame NY state for not collecting the cig/gas taxes?
Does paying the Federal government not go against the "sovereignty" claim by the tribes?
_________________________
"OUR COUNTRY IS IN MOURNING, A SOLDIER DIED TODAY."

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#1002524 --- 04/01/09 01:31 PM Re: Judge: Cayugas can't sell tax-free cigarettes [Re: bluezone]
SilverFox Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/19/00
Posts: 6485
Loc: Waterloo
Simple twisted logic on the part of the Cayugas.
_________________________



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#1002613 --- 04/01/09 04:59 PM Re: Judge: Cayugas can't sell tax-free cigarettes [Re: BJ Radford]
SFisWonderful Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/30/08
Posts: 1928
Loc: NEW YORK
Originally Posted By: BJ Radford
A very good, hard working cashier made an error, as I said. I'm surprised you find that so hard to believe. Scan back through some of the past issues of the Finger Lakes Times. You will see where other cashiers at other stores have made the same error. It is usually on page six and is just a couple of sentences - not front page news. It would be hard for our cashiers to sell booze to a minor, or anyone else!

You are 100% right, other stores have made the same mistake of selling to minors. Here is the difference, the BIG difference!

Lakeside Trading stores whined and cried about the $300 fine and said that "your" laws dont apply to us! They finally paid this fine but not after making a big deal out of it.

The other stores paid the fine and took disciniplary with the employee that made the error and PAID the fine just to move forward. These stores didnt come up with every excuse they could think of, they paid the fine and moved on.

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#1002618 --- 04/01/09 05:06 PM Re: Judge: Cayugas can't sell tax-free cigarettes [Re: BJ Radford]
SFisWonderful Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/30/08
Posts: 1928
Loc: NEW YORK
Originally Posted By: BJ Radford
Blue zone- I appreciate you answering my question re. the ad for cigarettes. I had forgotten all about the ad you correctly refer to. It's part of the NASCAR page and was booked back in the Fall for the whole season. I'll get it corrected today.

Silver Fox- You are correct- my presence here was bound to elicit all sorts of comments. But as I stated originally, I choose to only post matters of fact. Glad I not only didn't dissappoint you, but behaved as you would reasonably expect me to based on that original post.

Trump- Yes I am an American citizen. The use of the word belief in your next question negates my willingness to answer it. Yes Seneca County DOH sent a minor into LakeSide Trading and the minor was sold cigarettes. A cashier made an error. I paid the fine. Yes - Seneca County Weights and Measures certifies the pumps at LakeSide Trading.

SFisWonderful- If you want facts I'm your girl. It appears though what you want is an opportunity to discuss your opinions. Your right to do and my right not to do. For that you will have to look elsewhere.


My opinions? NO, these are facts. You cant expect roads, streets, highways, bridges, and water/sewer lines to be maintained without those who use them to pay in. Sure, you might pay the taxes now, but as you said, this is only a game that you are playing to get this land into trust so they can come off of the tax roles.

You can twist, beat, and make your words come out both sides of your mouth all you want but you end up saying the same thing in the end. Which is, you feel that native americans, not all, but the ones you represent (halftown, twoguns, halftowns mommy) should all be granted above-the-law-citizenship.

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#1002649 --- 04/01/09 06:14 PM Re: Judge: Cayugas can't sell tax-free cigarettes [Re: SFisWonderful]
trump Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/15/08
Posts: 887
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: SFisWonderful
Originally Posted By: BJ Radford
A very good, hard working cashier made an error, as I said. I'm surprised you find that so hard to believe. Scan back through some of the past issues of the Finger Lakes Times. You will see where other cashiers at other stores have made the same error. It is usually on page six and is just a couple of sentences - not front page news. It would be hard for our cashiers to sell booze to a minor, or anyone else!

You are 100% right, other stores have made the same mistake of selling to minors. Here is the difference, the BIG difference!

Lakeside Trading stores whined and cried about the $300 fine and said that "your" laws dont apply to us! They finally paid this fine but not after making a big deal out of it.

The other stores paid the fine and took disciniplary with the employee that made the error and PAID the fine just to move forward. These stores didnt come up with every excuse they could think of, they paid the fine and moved on.


Wow. I didn't know all this. Very interesting. BJ Radford, Is this what happened?
_________________________
http://www.nocayugalandintotrust.net

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#1002658 --- 04/01/09 06:35 PM Re: Judge: Cayugas can't sell tax-free cigarettes [Re: trump]
SFisWonderful Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/30/08
Posts: 1928
Loc: NEW YORK
Originally Posted By: trump
Originally Posted By: SFisWonderful
Originally Posted By: BJ Radford
A very good, hard working cashier made an error, as I said. I'm surprised you find that so hard to believe. Scan back through some of the past issues of the Finger Lakes Times. You will see where other cashiers at other stores have made the same error. It is usually on page six and is just a couple of sentences - not front page news. It would be hard for our cashiers to sell booze to a minor, or anyone else!

You are 100% right, other stores have made the same mistake of selling to minors. Here is the difference, the BIG difference!

Lakeside Trading stores whined and cried about the $300 fine and said that "your" laws dont apply to us! They finally paid this fine but not after making a big deal out of it.

The other stores paid the fine and took disciniplary with the employee that made the error and PAID the fine just to move forward. These stores didnt come up with every excuse they could think of, they paid the fine and moved on.


Wow. I didn't know all this. Very interesting. BJ Radford, Is this what happened?

Well, I would let her answer, but she feels as though everything we say is an OPINION. I wonder how she feels about what LEE ALCOTT says. Alcott boldly stated that they are above the laws that all the other slum citizens must live by. Here is the article:
Lawyer: Cayugas won't pay fine
Nation cites its sovereignty in rebuffing penalty for selling cigarettes to a minor.
Friday, June 20, 2008
By Scott Rapp
Staff writer
The Cayuga Indian Nation will not pay a $300 fine for selling cigarettes to a minor at its LakeSide Trading gas station and convenience store in the town of Seneca Falls, a nation lawyer said Thursday.

The Seneca County health board imposed the penalty on Wednesday, setting up another legal clash over the issue of sovereignty.

Saying it has sovereign rights, the nation believes it can operate its Route 89 store beyond the reach of local and state laws. The county disagrees, holding to its long-standing position against Indian sovereignty.

"They have no jurisdiction. . . . They're clearly without the authority to impose the fine and to collect the fine," said Lee Alcott, a Syracuse lawyer representing the Cayugas.

The nation was cited for selling cigarettes to a minor - a violation of state public health law - after the county's first inspection at LakeSide Trading on April 25, County Attorney Frank Fisher said.

The citation was upheld after an administrative hearing May 21.

At the hearing, Alcott disputed the county's right to conduct the inspection while Fisher said the county has every right to enforce the law at the business, which the Cayugas acquired in October 2003.

"There's nothing about that facility that makes it unique. Their claim that they're on an Indian reservation is not correct," Fisher said.

The state Health Department did not object to the county inspecting the store, said Beth Goldberg, a department spokeswoman.

The Cayugas own a similar business in Union Springs, but Cayuga County has never tried to enforce the law regulating tobacco sales to minors at that store, said Scott King, a spokesman for the Cayuga County Health Department.

"We've been consistently told by the state Health Department not to regulate that facility," he said.

In 2005, the Cayugas lost a federal lawsuit to regain sovereign title to some 64,000 acres of ancestral land around the north end of Cayuga Lake. Since then, the nation has applied to put some of its growing land holdings in both Seneca and Cayuga counties into sovereign federal trust. Both counties oppose the move, which remains pending before the U.S. Department of Interior....

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#1002668 --- 04/01/09 06:47 PM Re: Judge: Cayugas can't sell tax-free cigarettes [Re: SFisWonderful]
SilverFox Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/19/00
Posts: 6485
Loc: Waterloo
Maybe we should give Lee Alcott a break. He has been so brain washed by Twoguns and Halftown that he believes all the Cayuga twisted logic and history. Poor guy will probably die of embarassment when the truth comes out. Or, maybe he will die laughing on the way to the bank with all the legal fees they have paid him.
_________________________



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#1002842 --- 04/02/09 05:47 AM Re: Judge: Cayugas can't sell tax-free cigarettes [Re: SFisWonderful]
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32556
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: SFisWonderful
In 2005, the Cayugas lost a federal lawsuit to regain sovereign title to some 64,000 acres of ancestral land around the north end of Cayuga Lake. Since then, the nation has applied to put some of its growing land holdings in both Seneca and Cayuga counties into sovereign federal trust.


Sounds like there ain't no reservation.
There would be no need for trust if a reservation were to exist.


_________________________
"OUR COUNTRY IS IN MOURNING, A SOLDIER DIED TODAY."

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#1002846 --- 04/02/09 05:54 AM Re: Judge: Cayugas can't sell tax-free cigarettes [Re: ]
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32556
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Festus!
Can the county bring charges under RICO?



http://www.nytimes.com/2003/12/30/us/tribe-loses-suit-on-tax-free-tobacco.html
_________________________
"OUR COUNTRY IS IN MOURNING, A SOLDIER DIED TODAY."

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#1002874 --- 04/02/09 06:10 AM Re: Judge: Cayugas can't sell tax-free cigarettes [Re: HighC]
BJ Radford Offline
Member

Registered: 03/30/09
Posts: 314
Loc: Geneva
Sorry - guess I need to be more direct - YES

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#1002880 --- 04/02/09 06:14 AM Re: Judge: Cayugas can't sell tax-free cigarettes [Re: justaxme]
BJ Radford Offline
Member

Registered: 03/30/09
Posts: 314
Loc: Geneva
A girl who very much appeared to be over 18 came in, plunked down her license and asked for a carton of cigarettes. The cashier forgot to look at her license. I believe the cashier assumed her willingness to volunteer the license, lessened their need to see it. A mistake. Your feeling that humans who make mistakes, including all cashiers everywhere apparently, are bad is pretty scary.

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#1002883 --- 04/02/09 06:16 AM Re: Judge: Cayugas can't sell tax-free cigarettes [Re: SilverFox]
BJ Radford Offline
Member

Registered: 03/30/09
Posts: 314
Loc: Geneva
Federal and state excise taxes are both collected at the distributor level. Only sales tax collection and remittance takes place at the retailer level.

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#1002900 --- 04/02/09 06:43 AM Re: Judge: Cayugas can't sell tax-free cigarettes [Re: SilverFox]
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32556
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: SilverFox
Simple twisted logic on the part of the Cayugas.


That must be why BJR is unable to offer a valid response. ;\)
_________________________
"OUR COUNTRY IS IN MOURNING, A SOLDIER DIED TODAY."

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#1002904 --- 04/02/09 06:54 AM Re: Judge: Cayugas can't sell tax-free cigarettes [Re: BJ Radford]
HighC Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 03/09/08
Posts: 17
Loc: Out of my mind
Originally Posted By: BJ Radford
Sorry - guess I need to be more direct - YES

By this answer, I take it that you are following the federal law.

It is the belief of most of the posters that you are not following NYS law by

1. Not charging non Native Americans NYS tobacco tax
2. Not collecting and remitting sales tax

Would you care to state the facts (or your position) on these issues?

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#1002908 --- 04/02/09 06:56 AM Re: Judge: Cayugas can't sell tax-free cigarettes [Re: BJ Radford]
HighC Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 03/09/08
Posts: 17
Loc: Out of my mind
Originally Posted By: BJ Radford
Federal and state excise taxes are both collected at the distributor level. Only sales tax collection and remittance takes place at the retailer level.


I beg to differ
Federal excise is collected at Manufacturer level and built into price to the distributor
State excise is collected at the distributor.


Edited by HighC (04/02/09 06:58 AM)

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#1002911 --- 04/02/09 07:00 AM Re: Judge: Cayugas can't sell tax-free cigarettes [Re: SFisWonderful]
trump Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/15/08
Posts: 887
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: SFisWonderful
Originally Posted By: trump
Originally Posted By: SFisWonderful
Originally Posted By: BJ Radford
A very good, hard working cashier made an error, as I said. I'm surprised you find that so hard to believe. Scan back through some of the past issues of the Finger Lakes Times. You will see where other cashiers at other stores have made the same error. It is usually on page six and is just a couple of sentences - not front page news. It would be hard for our cashiers to sell booze to a minor, or anyone else!

You are 100% right, other stores have made the same mistake of selling to minors. Here is the difference, the BIG difference!

Lakeside Trading stores whined and cried about the $300 fine and said that "your" laws dont apply to us! They finally paid this fine but not after making a big deal out of it.

The other stores paid the fine and took disciniplary with the employee that made the error and PAID the fine just to move forward. These stores didnt come up with every excuse they could think of, they paid the fine and moved on.


Wow. I didn't know all this. Very interesting. BJ Radford, Is this what happened?

Well, I would let her answer, but she feels as though everything we say is an OPINION. I wonder how she feels about what LEE ALCOTT says. Alcott boldly stated that they are above the laws that all the other slum citizens must live by. Here is the article:
Lawyer: Cayugas won't pay fine
Nation cites its sovereignty in rebuffing penalty for selling cigarettes to a minor.
Friday, June 20, 2008
By Scott Rapp
Staff writer
The Cayuga Indian Nation will not pay a $300 fine for selling cigarettes to a minor at its LakeSide Trading gas station and convenience store in the town of Seneca Falls, a nation lawyer said Thursday.

The Seneca County health board imposed the penalty on Wednesday, setting up another legal clash over the issue of sovereignty.

Saying it has sovereign rights, the nation believes it can operate its Route 89 store beyond the reach of local and state laws. The county disagrees, holding to its long-standing position against Indian sovereignty.

"They have no jurisdiction. . . . They're clearly without the authority to impose the fine and to collect the fine," said Lee Alcott, a Syracuse lawyer representing the Cayugas.

The nation was cited for selling cigarettes to a minor - a violation of state public health law - after the county's first inspection at LakeSide Trading on April 25, County Attorney Frank Fisher said.

The citation was upheld after an administrative hearing May 21.

At the hearing, Alcott disputed the county's right to conduct the inspection while Fisher said the county has every right to enforce the law at the business, which the Cayugas acquired in October 2003.

"There's nothing about that facility that makes it unique. Their claim that they're on an Indian reservation is not correct," Fisher said.

The state Health Department did not object to the county inspecting the store, said Beth Goldberg, a department spokeswoman.

The Cayugas own a similar business in Union Springs, but Cayuga County has never tried to enforce the law regulating tobacco sales to minors at that store, said Scott King, a spokesman for the Cayuga County Health Department.

"We've been consistently told by the state Health Department not to regulate that facility," he said.

In 2005, the Cayugas lost a federal lawsuit to regain sovereign title to some 64,000 acres of ancestral land around the north end of Cayuga Lake. Since then, the nation has applied to put some of its growing land holdings in both Seneca and Cayuga counties into sovereign federal trust. Both counties oppose the move, which remains pending before the U.S. Department of Interior....


Wow. OMG. Thanks SFWonderful. This is getting beyond belief.

Quote:
my name really is BJ Radford and I really am the Chief Operating Officer of LakeSide Enterprises, the Cayuga Nation's business arm. I believe strongly in the right for each of us to have our own opinion. I also believe in our right to express that opinion in any polite, ethical and legal manner. I do not choose to express, or discuss mine on this forum. I am willing to provide matters of fact, that I am aware of, for the benefit of anyone who might be interested in the truth. My post contained just that.


Quote:
As background - I am caucasian, an american citizen, and very proud of our military. I have spent most of the last 20 years working for Indian Nations.


I didn't know the Indian Nations had a military?

Quote:
A very good, hard working cashier made an error, as I said. I'm surprised you find that so hard to believe. Scan back through some of the past issues of the Finger Lakes Times. You will see where other cashiers at other stores have made the same error. It is usually on page six and is just a couple of sentences - not front page news.


BJ Radford, Are you trying to tell me that you were unaware of Lee Alcott's action on this issue which caused it to be front page news? I find that impossible to believe.


Edited by trump (04/02/09 07:13 AM)
_________________________
http://www.nocayugalandintotrust.net

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#1002971 --- 04/02/09 08:48 AM Re: Judge: Cayugas can't sell tax-free cigarettes [Re: HighC]
BJ Radford Offline
Member

Registered: 03/30/09
Posts: 314
Loc: Geneva
Originally Posted By: HighC
Originally Posted By: BJ Radford
Sorry - guess I need to be more direct - YES

By this answer, I take it that you are following the federal law.

It is the belief of most of the posters that you are not following NYS law by

1. Not charging non Native Americans NYS tobacco tax
2. Not collecting and remitting sales tax

Would you care to state the facts (or your position) on these issues?


Glad to state the facts. LakeSide Trading does not collect or remit sales tax. Could you please clarify what you mean by tobacco?

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#1002973 --- 04/02/09 08:50 AM Re: Judge: Cayugas can't sell tax-free cigarettes [Re: trump]
BJ Radford Offline
Member

Registered: 03/30/09
Posts: 314
Loc: Geneva
Originally Posted By: trump
Originally Posted By: SFisWonderful
Originally Posted By: trump
Originally Posted By: SFisWonderful
Originally Posted By: BJ Radford
A very good, hard working cashier made an error, as I said. I'm surprised you find that so hard to believe. Scan back through some of the past issues of the Finger Lakes Times. You will see where other cashiers at other stores have made the same error. It is usually on page six and is just a couple of sentences - not front page news. It would be hard for our cashiers to sell booze to a minor, or anyone else!

You are 100% right, other stores have made the same mistake of selling to minors. Here is the difference, the BIG difference!

Lakeside Trading stores whined and cried about the $300 fine and said that "your" laws dont apply to us! They finally paid this fine but not after making a big deal out of it.

The other stores paid the fine and took disciniplary with the employee that made the error and PAID the fine just to move forward. These stores didnt come up with every excuse they could think of, they paid the fine and moved on.


Wow. I didn't know all this. Very interesting. BJ Radford, Is this what happened?

Well, I would let her answer, but she feels as though everything we say is an OPINION. I wonder how she feels about what LEE ALCOTT says. Alcott boldly stated that they are above the laws that all the other slum citizens must live by. Here is the article:
Lawyer: Cayugas won't pay fine
Nation cites its sovereignty in rebuffing penalty for selling cigarettes to a minor.
Friday, June 20, 2008
By Scott Rapp
Staff writer
The Cayuga Indian Nation will not pay a $300 fine for selling cigarettes to a minor at its LakeSide Trading gas station and convenience store in the town of Seneca Falls, a nation lawyer said Thursday.

The Seneca County health board imposed the penalty on Wednesday, setting up another legal clash over the issue of sovereignty.

Saying it has sovereign rights, the nation believes it can operate its Route 89 store beyond the reach of local and state laws. The county disagrees, holding to its long-standing position against Indian sovereignty.

"They have no jurisdiction. . . . They're clearly without the authority to impose the fine and to collect the fine," said Lee Alcott, a Syracuse lawyer representing the Cayugas.

The nation was cited for selling cigarettes to a minor - a violation of state public health law - after the county's first inspection at LakeSide Trading on April 25, County Attorney Frank Fisher said.

The citation was upheld after an administrative hearing May 21.

At the hearing, Alcott disputed the county's right to conduct the inspection while Fisher said the county has every right to enforce the law at the business, which the Cayugas acquired in October 2003.

"There's nothing about that facility that makes it unique. Their claim that they're on an Indian reservation is not correct," Fisher said.

The state Health Department did not object to the county inspecting the store, said Beth Goldberg, a department spokeswoman.

The Cayugas own a similar business in Union Springs, but Cayuga County has never tried to enforce the law regulating tobacco sales to minors at that store, said Scott King, a spokesman for the Cayuga County Health Department.

"We've been consistently told by the state Health Department not to regulate that facility," he said.

In 2005, the Cayugas lost a federal lawsuit to regain sovereign title to some 64,000 acres of ancestral land around the north end of Cayuga Lake. Since then, the nation has applied to put some of its growing land holdings in both Seneca and Cayuga counties into sovereign federal trust. Both counties oppose the move, which remains pending before the U.S. Department of Interior....


Wow. OMG. Thanks SFWonderful. This is getting beyond belief.

Quote:
my name really is BJ Radford and I really am the Chief Operating Officer of LakeSide Enterprises, the Cayuga Nation's business arm. I believe strongly in the right for each of us to have our own opinion. I also believe in our right to express that opinion in any polite, ethical and legal manner. I do not choose to express, or discuss mine on this forum. I am willing to provide matters of fact, that I am aware of, for the benefit of anyone who might be interested in the truth. My post contained just that.


Quote:
As background - I am caucasian, an american citizen, and very proud of our military. I have spent most of the last 20 years working for Indian Nations.


I didn't know the Indian Nations had a military?

Quote:
A very good, hard working cashier made an error, as I said. I'm surprised you find that so hard to believe. Scan back through some of the past issues of the Finger Lakes Times. You will see where other cashiers at other stores have made the same error. It is usually on page six and is just a couple of sentences - not front page news.


BJ Radford, Are you trying to tell me that you were unaware of Lee Alcott's action on this issue which caused it to be front page news? I find that impossible to believe.


I am aware of what Lee Alcott said. I said I was an American citizen. I said I was proud of our military. How do you get from those statements to an issue re. indian military?

Top
#1002976 --- 04/02/09 08:55 AM Re: Judge: Cayugas can't sell tax-free cigarettes [Re: BJ Radford]
trump Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/15/08
Posts: 887
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: BJ Radford
Originally Posted By: trump
Originally Posted By: SFisWonderful
Originally Posted By: trump
Originally Posted By: SFisWonderful
Originally Posted By: BJ Radford
A very good, hard working cashier made an error, as I said. I'm surprised you find that so hard to believe. Scan back through some of the past issues of the Finger Lakes Times. You will see where other cashiers at other stores have made the same error. It is usually on page six and is just a couple of sentences - not front page news. It would be hard for our cashiers to sell booze to a minor, or anyone else!

You are 100% right, other stores have made the same mistake of selling to minors. Here is the difference, the BIG difference!

Lakeside Trading stores whined and cried about the $300 fine and said that "your" laws dont apply to us! They finally paid this fine but not after making a big deal out of it.

The other stores paid the fine and took disciniplary with the employee that made the error and PAID the fine just to move forward. These stores didnt come up with every excuse they could think of, they paid the fine and moved on.


Wow. I didn't know all this. Very interesting. BJ Radford, Is this what happened?

Well, I would let her answer, but she feels as though everything we say is an OPINION. I wonder how she feels about what LEE ALCOTT says. Alcott boldly stated that they are above the laws that all the other slum citizens must live by. Here is the article:
Lawyer: Cayugas won't pay fine
Nation cites its sovereignty in rebuffing penalty for selling cigarettes to a minor.
Friday, June 20, 2008
By Scott Rapp
Staff writer
The Cayuga Indian Nation will not pay a $300 fine for selling cigarettes to a minor at its LakeSide Trading gas station and convenience store in the town of Seneca Falls, a nation lawyer said Thursday.

The Seneca County health board imposed the penalty on Wednesday, setting up another legal clash over the issue of sovereignty.

Saying it has sovereign rights, the nation believes it can operate its Route 89 store beyond the reach of local and state laws. The county disagrees, holding to its long-standing position against Indian sovereignty.

"They have no jurisdiction. . . . They're clearly without the authority to impose the fine and to collect the fine," said Lee Alcott, a Syracuse lawyer representing the Cayugas.

The nation was cited for selling cigarettes to a minor - a violation of state public health law - after the county's first inspection at LakeSide Trading on April 25, County Attorney Frank Fisher said.

The citation was upheld after an administrative hearing May 21.

At the hearing, Alcott disputed the county's right to conduct the inspection while Fisher said the county has every right to enforce the law at the business, which the Cayugas acquired in October 2003.

"There's nothing about that facility that makes it unique. Their claim that they're on an Indian reservation is not correct," Fisher said.

The state Health Department did not object to the county inspecting the store, said Beth Goldberg, a department spokeswoman.

The Cayugas own a similar business in Union Springs, but Cayuga County has never tried to enforce the law regulating tobacco sales to minors at that store, said Scott King, a spokesman for the Cayuga County Health Department.

"We've been consistently told by the state Health Department not to regulate that facility," he said.

In 2005, the Cayugas lost a federal lawsuit to regain sovereign title to some 64,000 acres of ancestral land around the north end of Cayuga Lake. Since then, the nation has applied to put some of its growing land holdings in both Seneca and Cayuga counties into sovereign federal trust. Both counties oppose the move, which remains pending before the U.S. Department of Interior....


Wow. OMG. Thanks SFWonderful. This is getting beyond belief.

Quote:
my name really is BJ Radford and I really am the Chief Operating Officer of LakeSide Enterprises, the Cayuga Nation's business arm. I believe strongly in the right for each of us to have our own opinion. I also believe in our right to express that opinion in any polite, ethical and legal manner. I do not choose to express, or discuss mine on this forum. I am willing to provide matters of fact, that I am aware of, for the benefit of anyone who might be interested in the truth. My post contained just that.


Quote:
As background - I am caucasian, an american citizen, and very proud of our military. I have spent most of the last 20 years working for Indian Nations.


I didn't know the Indian Nations had a military?

Quote:
A very good, hard working cashier made an error, as I said. I'm surprised you find that so hard to believe. Scan back through some of the past issues of the Finger Lakes Times. You will see where other cashiers at other stores have made the same error. It is usually on page six and is just a couple of sentences - not front page news.


BJ Radford, Are you trying to tell me that you were unaware of Lee Alcott's action on this issue which caused it to be front page news? I find that impossible to believe.


I am aware of what Lee Alcott said. I said I was an American citizen. I said I was proud of our military. How do you get from those statements to an issue re. indian military?


I mentioned the military half in jest since you seem to be supporting two nations, the USA and the Cayuga nation. A nation divided amongst itself cannot stand. If you knew what Lee Accott said then why did it surprise you that this got so much play in the papers? Front page news is where it deserved to be.
_________________________
http://www.nocayugalandintotrust.net

Top
#1002997 --- 04/02/09 09:34 AM Re: Judge: Cayugas can't sell tax-free cigarettes [Re: BJ Radford]
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32556
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: BJ Radford
Glad to state the facts. LakeSide Trading does not collect or remit sales tax. Could you please clarify what you mean by tobacco?


Indirectly, the Cayugas do collect the sales taxes but they fail to send it to the county or the state. The price of gas and cigarettes would be substantially lower but that is how you make large profits.
_________________________
"OUR COUNTRY IS IN MOURNING, A SOLDIER DIED TODAY."

Top
#1003126 --- 04/02/09 02:51 PM Re: Judge: Cayugas can't sell tax-free cigarettes [Re: trump]
BJ Radford Offline
Member

Registered: 03/30/09
Posts: 314
Loc: Geneva
Originally Posted By: trump
Originally Posted By: BJ Radford
Originally Posted By: trump
Originally Posted By: SFisWonderful
Originally Posted By: trump
Originally Posted By: SFisWonderful
Originally Posted By: BJ Radford
A very good, hard working cashier made an error, as I said. I'm surprised you find that so hard to believe. Scan back through some of the past issues of the Finger Lakes Times. You will see where other cashiers at other stores have made the same error. It is usually on page six and is just a couple of sentences - not front page news. It would be hard for our cashiers to sell booze to a minor, or anyone else!

You are 100% right, other stores have made the same mistake of selling to minors. Here is the difference, the BIG difference!

Lakeside Trading stores whined and cried about the $300 fine and said that "your" laws dont apply to us! They finally paid this fine but not after making a big deal out of it.

The other stores paid the fine and took disciniplary with the employee that made the error and PAID the fine just to move forward. These stores didnt come up with every excuse they could think of, they paid the fine and moved on.


Wow. I didn't know all this. Very interesting. BJ Radford, Is this what happened?

Well, I would let her answer, but she feels as though everything we say is an OPINION. I wonder how she feels about what LEE ALCOTT says. Alcott boldly stated that they are above the laws that all the other slum citizens must live by. Here is the article:
Lawyer: Cayugas won't pay fine
Nation cites its sovereignty in rebuffing penalty for selling cigarettes to a minor.
Friday, June 20, 2008
By Scott Rapp
Staff writer
The Cayuga Indian Nation will not pay a $300 fine for selling cigarettes to a minor at its LakeSide Trading gas station and convenience store in the town of Seneca Falls, a nation lawyer said Thursday.

The Seneca County health board imposed the penalty on Wednesday, setting up another legal clash over the issue of sovereignty.

Saying it has sovereign rights, the nation believes it can operate its Route 89 store beyond the reach of local and state laws. The county disagrees, holding to its long-standing position against Indian sovereignty.

"They have no jurisdiction. . . . They're clearly without the authority to impose the fine and to collect the fine," said Lee Alcott, a Syracuse lawyer representing the Cayugas.

The nation was cited for selling cigarettes to a minor - a violation of state public health law - after the county's first inspection at LakeSide Trading on April 25, County Attorney Frank Fisher said.

The citation was upheld after an administrative hearing May 21.

At the hearing, Alcott disputed the county's right to conduct the inspection while Fisher said the county has every right to enforce the law at the business, which the Cayugas acquired in October 2003.

"There's nothing about that facility that makes it unique. Their claim that they're on an Indian reservation is not correct," Fisher said.

The state Health Department did not object to the county inspecting the store, said Beth Goldberg, a department spokeswoman.

The Cayugas own a similar business in Union Springs, but Cayuga County has never tried to enforce the law regulating tobacco sales to minors at that store, said Scott King, a spokesman for the Cayuga County Health Department.

"We've been consistently told by the state Health Department not to regulate that facility," he said.

In 2005, the Cayugas lost a federal lawsuit to regain sovereign title to some 64,000 acres of ancestral land around the north end of Cayuga Lake. Since then, the nation has applied to put some of its growing land holdings in both Seneca and Cayuga counties into sovereign federal trust. Both counties oppose the move, which remains pending before the U.S. Department of Interior....


Wow. OMG. Thanks SFWonderful. This is getting beyond belief.

Quote:
my name really is BJ Radford and I really am the Chief Operating Officer of LakeSide Enterprises, the Cayuga Nation's business arm. I believe strongly in the right for each of us to have our own opinion. I also believe in our right to express that opinion in any polite, ethical and legal manner. I do not choose to express, or discuss mine on this forum. I am willing to provide matters of fact, that I am aware of, for the benefit of anyone who might be interested in the truth. My post contained just that.


Quote:
As background - I am caucasian, an american citizen, and very proud of our military. I have spent most of the last 20 years working for Indian Nations.


I didn't know the Indian Nations had a military?

Quote:
A very good, hard working cashier made an error, as I said. I'm surprised you find that so hard to believe. Scan back through some of the past issues of the Finger Lakes Times. You will see where other cashiers at other stores have made the same error. It is usually on page six and is just a couple of sentences - not front page news.


BJ Radford, Are you trying to tell me that you were unaware of Lee Alcott's action on this issue which caused it to be front page news? I find that impossible to believe.


I am aware of what Lee Alcott said. I said I was an American citizen. I said I was proud of our military. How do you get from those statements to an issue re. indian military?


I mentioned the military half in jest since you seem to be supporting two nations, the USA and the Cayuga nation. A nation divided amongst itself cannot stand. If you knew what Lee Accott said then why did it surprise you that this got so much play in the papers? Front page news is where it deserved to be.


I'm a fan of jest myself. Just how did I express surprise?

Top
#1003127 --- 04/02/09 02:52 PM Re: Judge: Cayugas can't sell tax-free cigarettes [Re: bluezone]
BJ Radford Offline
Member

Registered: 03/30/09
Posts: 314
Loc: Geneva
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: BJ Radford
Glad to state the facts. LakeSide Trading does not collect or remit sales tax. Could you please clarify what you mean by tobacco?


Indirectly, the Cayugas do collect the sales taxes but they fail to send it to the county or the state. The price of gas and cigarettes would be substantially lower but that is how you make large profits.


I suppose that depends on what your definition of sales tax is.

Top
#1003133 --- 04/02/09 03:11 PM Re: Judge: Cayugas can't sell tax-free cigarettes [Re: BJ Radford]
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32556
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: BJ Radford
I'm a fan of jest myself. Just how did I express surprise?


there are facial icons above were you type your post. Pick any expression you desire. \:\) \:\( \:D ;\)
_________________________
"OUR COUNTRY IS IN MOURNING, A SOLDIER DIED TODAY."

Top
#1003134 --- 04/02/09 03:13 PM Re: Judge: Cayugas can't sell tax-free cigarettes [Re: BJ Radford]
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32556
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: BJ Radford


I suppose that depends on what your definition of sales tax is.
If you had to sell gas at $0.03 per gallon above your cost like other gas stations then your gas price would be closer to $1.50 and not $0.05 below other tax paying stations. Your stations gets to pocket the state gas tax. That is the sole reason for your claim to a reservation and /or trust.

The profits for cigs is even greater.
_________________________
"OUR COUNTRY IS IN MOURNING, A SOLDIER DIED TODAY."

Top
#1003135 --- 04/02/09 03:18 PM Re: Judge: Cayugas can't sell tax-free cigarettes [Re: bluezone]
grinch Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/28/01
Posts: 4617
Loc: New York State
http://www.indianz.com/News/2009/013895.asp

http://www.narf.org/sct/carcieri/decision.pdf

Not wanting to start yet another thread I am posting some information on land trusts for Indian tribes here.

There was a decision by the Supreme Court to deny trust status for the Narrangestt Indians in RI a few weeks ago that is reverberating through Indian Country. That decision has wide ranging effects and in my opinion will preclude the Cayuga and Oneida Nations from gaining trust status on lands they have repurchased. Reason: the Iroquois tribes were not under federal control as required by the IRA of 1934 as they refused to be recognized under that law.

This has stirred the Tribes to action. Political pressure and money is being showered on congress to amend the law to include ANY AND ALL TRIBES THAT ARE RECOGNIZED BY THE BIA AT ANY TIME INCLUDING THOSE AWAITING RECOGNITION. That would allow the 1, 2 or 3 member "nations" to operate casinos and what have you, free of state and most Federal laws that apply to all citizens. If successful in amending thelaw it will circument SCOTUS's decision.

My opinion: I believe it is a travesty of justice and against the US Constitution to grant special privilege to any group. We cannot allow racism (special privilege) to continue to grow in the USA or we risk its demise. We are a nation of Equals. equal rights, laws and taxation. If the Tribes are allowed to separate their governments from the States, the next step is for tribes to unite and challenge the sovereignty of the USA. A Nation divided against it's self will fall.

The House of Representatives are already holding hearings on this matter. Contact your senator and federal representatives and voice your opinion pro or con on this matter.

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#1003139 --- 04/02/09 03:25 PM Re: Judge: Cayugas can't sell tax-free cigarettes [Re: bluezone]
BJ Radford Offline
Member

Registered: 03/30/09
Posts: 314
Loc: Geneva
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: BJ Radford
I'm a fan of jest myself. Just how did I express surprise?


there are facial icons above were you type your post. Pick any expression you desire. \:\) \:\( \:D ;\)


Thanks - technology is not my strongest suit.

Top
#1003142 --- 04/02/09 03:31 PM Re: Judge: Cayugas can't sell tax-free cigarettes [Re: BJ Radford]
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32556
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: BJ Radford
Thanks - technology is not my strongest suit.
You have not been on this forum long enough to realize all the features. ;\)
we give "newbies" a learning period
_________________________
"OUR COUNTRY IS IN MOURNING, A SOLDIER DIED TODAY."

Top
#1003148 --- 04/02/09 03:45 PM Re: Judge: Cayugas can't sell tax-free cigarettes [Re: grinch]
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32556
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: grinch
...There was a decision by the Supreme Court to deny trust status for the Narrangestt Indians in RI a few weeks ago that is reverberating through Indian Country...


Grinch - I agree as the RI tribe "wants" a housing development but one could see it turning into the casino that they desire more. If they want to change IRA then have Congress change the tribes right to have sole casino operations.
_________________________
"OUR COUNTRY IS IN MOURNING, A SOLDIER DIED TODAY."

Top
#1003190 --- 04/02/09 05:45 PM Re: Judge: Cayugas can't sell tax-free cigarettes [Re: bluezone]
grinch Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/28/01
Posts: 4617
Loc: New York State
Most Tribes use that approach, indicate one thing such as a housing development as their purpose requesting trust status then expand on that by going for casinos and smoke shops.

Top
#1003194 --- 04/02/09 06:01 PM Re: Judge: Cayugas can't sell tax-free cigarettes [Re: BJ Radford]
SFisWonderful Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/30/08
Posts: 1928
Loc: NEW YORK
Originally Posted By: BJ Radford
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: BJ Radford
I'm a fan of jest myself. Just how did I express surprise?


there are facial icons above were you type your post. Pick any expression you desire. \:\) \:\( \:D ;\)


Thanks - technology is not my strongest suit.

I would say public relations isnt as well, this also applies to the Cayuga Nations, especially with a hothead like Alcott making bold statements. How do you expect public support acting bold and brassy?

YOU are the one that came on here and announced yourself as the chief operating officer of the Cayuga Nation. By doing that, you put yourself in the position of representing the Cayuga Nation and not your own ideas.

FACT:
Lakeside Trading stores and Pullens are not on reservations. As I said before, the simple act of buying a business from someone who followed all applicable NYS laws does not make the land sovereign.

FACT:
You have said pullens COLLECTS and REMITS all NYS sales tax and Lakeside Trading stores do not.

Questions:
-Why would the Cayuga Nation make such a big deal about following the laws for Lakeside but comply with the laws for Pullens?

-You stated they pay and remit NYS sales tax for Pullens, what about the Cayuga County portion?

-Are all the lawsuits about making absurd profits on gas and cigs? If not, then why doesnt Lakeside Trading stores follow the laws as you do with Pullens Towing and Repair? Neither are reservations, as you know, your a smart woman BJ.

Just My Opinions:
-I feel as though the lawsuits and your fight for a sovereign nation are only about making ridiculous profits on gas and cigs.
-The Cayuga Nation could give two craps about its ancestoral heritage as they are exploiting their ancestory to the max in the name of money.
-I would be ashamed to work for such a company, the Cayuga Nation's pity-me ploy has wore out its welcome with many.
-Why do the tribal governments feel the need to keep its people confined to a reservation. There isnt any laws stating they cant join society and make their own way.

Top
#1003253 --- 04/02/09 08:48 PM Re: Judge: Cayugas can't sell tax-free cigarettes [Re: SFisWonderful]
BJ Radford Offline
Member

Registered: 03/30/09
Posts: 314
Loc: Geneva
Originally Posted By: SFisWonderful
Originally Posted By: BJ Radford
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: BJ Radford
I'm a fan of jest myself. Just how did I express surprise?


there are facial icons above were you type your post. Pick any expression you desire. \:\) \:\( \:D ;\)


Thanks - technology is not my strongest suit.

I would say public relations isnt as well, this also applies to the Cayuga Nations, especially with a hothead like Alcott making bold statements. How do you expect public support acting bold and brassy?

YOU are the one that came on here and announced yourself as the chief operating officer of the Cayuga Nation. By doing that, you put yourself in the position of representing the Cayuga Nation and not your own ideas.

FACT:
Lakeside Trading stores and Pullens are not on reservations. As I said before, the simple act of buying a business from someone who followed all applicable NYS laws does not make the land sovereign.

FACT:
You have said pullens COLLECTS and REMITS all NYS sales tax and Lakeside Trading stores do not.

Questions:
-Why would the Cayuga Nation make such a big deal about following the laws for Lakeside but comply with the laws for Pullens?

-You stated they pay and remit NYS sales tax for Pullens, what about the Cayuga County portion?

-Are all the lawsuits about making absurd profits on gas and cigs? If not, then why doesnt Lakeside Trading stores follow the laws as you do with Pullens Towing and Repair? Neither are reservations, as you know, your a smart woman BJ.

Just My Opinions:
-I feel as though the lawsuits and your fight for a sovereign nation are only about making ridiculous profits on gas and cigs.
-The Cayuga Nation could give two craps about its ancestoral heritage as they are exploiting their ancestory to the max in the name of money.
-I would be ashamed to work for such a company, the Cayuga Nation's pity-me ploy has wore out its welcome with many.
-Why do the tribal governments feel the need to keep its people confined to a reservation. There isnt any laws stating they cant join society and make their own way.


Admittedly neither technology or public relations are my strong suits. Developing and operating businesses is, which is what I get paid to do. I have learned accurately citing people's words is not yours. Let's take this one at a time:

Public support has never been my goal by participating here. I will say, for the umpteenth time, my goal has been to provide facts. So to answer your question - no I don't expect it - I don't even solicit it.

I never "announced" myself as Chief Operating Officer. I believe I created a user name that is my name. I verified my name and position, as I recall, because YOU pointed it out. More a confirmation than an announcement.

Thanks for calling me smart. You seem smart as well. Smart enough to know that I will not answers most of your questions. The one I will answer is that Pullens collects and remits sales tax. NYS's portion as well as the county's.

Top
#1003279 --- 04/02/09 09:30 PM Re: Judge: Cayugas can't sell tax-free cigarettes [Re: BJ Radford]
SFisWonderful Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/30/08
Posts: 1928
Loc: NEW YORK
Well that's sad! You proved RedGreen wrong as he said you could bring something to the table. I was really looking forward to having my questions answered. I guess I will have to wait to see how the court feels as to what can and cant be done on reservation land, what/where reservations are, and if the Cayuga Nation legally exist.

JMO:
If your job is to develop and operate business you do a poor job at it, and that is giving you a compliment and stating it nicely.

My understanding of developing and operating is to keep the negative PR to a minimum and the good PR to a maximum. As you dont/wont answer questions, I can only ask myself and the OPINIONS of others, why spend so much time on the business of selling cigs and gas tax free? Would the native americans ancestors be proud of this? Is this what the native american culture represents? I know its not but you fight so hard that it is the only thing people see and hear about.

Did it ever occur to you that you might gain, lets say 99.999%, of New Yorker's support if you lobbied for lower taxation/no taxation of all races and not just one race. IMO - that would win support of all races and not just the people that want to save money on gas and cigs.

Instead, you choose to do as your told and play the we were treated so badly 200 years ago card to the max. SAD!

Top
#1003289 --- 04/02/09 10:12 PM Re: Judge: Cayugas can't sell tax-free cigarettes [Re: SFisWonderful]
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32556
Loc: USA
BJR - Currently Lakeside is unable to sell cigarettes per the ruling by the judge. Should the same apply to the gas as sales taxes are not being paid by the tribe either and the land is not in trust?
_________________________
"OUR COUNTRY IS IN MOURNING, A SOLDIER DIED TODAY."

Top
#1003306 --- 04/02/09 11:24 PM Re: Judge: Cayugas can't sell tax-free cigarettes [Re: bluezone]
BJ Radford Offline
Member

Registered: 03/30/09
Posts: 314
Loc: Geneva
Originally Posted By: bluezone
BJR - Currently Lakeside is unable to sell cigarettes per the ruling by the judge. Should the same apply to the gas as sales taxes are not being paid by the tribe either and the land is not in trust?


Blue zone - this ? puts me in a position where you will see my answer as my opinion and truth be told, based on the legal landscape of the moment, it is. I am going to answer it anyway! In my experience, many people use a difference of opinion as an excuse to forget their manners. You strongly disagree with me yet haven't forgotten yours and I appreciate it.
I do not agree with Judge Fisher's ruling so I would tell you the Cayugas should be able to sell cigs, gas and other items as they have in the past, free of state excise and sales tax.

Top
#1003307 --- 04/02/09 11:37 PM Re: Judge: Cayugas can't sell tax-free cigarettes [Re: SFisWonderful]
BJ Radford Offline
Member

Registered: 03/30/09
Posts: 314
Loc: Geneva
Originally Posted By: SFisWonderful
Well that's sad! You proved RedGreen wrong as he said you could bring something to the table. I was really looking forward to having my questions answered. I guess I will have to wait to see how the court feels as to what can and cant be done on reservation land, what/where reservations are, and if the Cayuga Nation legally exist.

JMO:
If your job is to develop and operate business you do a poor job at it, and that is giving you a compliment and stating it nicely.

My understanding of developing and operating is to keep the negative PR to a minimum and the good PR to a maximum. As you dont/wont answer questions, I can only ask myself and the OPINIONS of others, why spend so much time on the business of selling cigs and gas tax free? Would the native americans ancestors be proud of this? Is this what the native american culture represents? I know its not but you fight so hard that it is the only thing people see and hear about.

Did it ever occur to you that you might gain, lets say 99.999%, of New Yorker's support if you lobbied for lower taxation/no taxation of all races and not just one race. IMO - that would win support of all races and not just the people that want to save money on gas and cigs.

Instead, you choose to do as your told and play the we were treated so badly 200 years ago card to the max. SAD!


Last I checked the COO (and everyone else I know with this title)is responsible for generating income. Although the Cayuga Nation's finances are not made public, I can assure you I am successful at my job.
I can not speak for native ancestors and culture. As I said, I am caucasian.
Gaining support is not my mission.
Do I do as my boss tells me? Absolutely! Isn't that how one keeps a job?
I am playing no cards - I have not mentioned treatment of the Cayugas in one single post!

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#1003315 --- 04/03/09 12:59 AM Re: Judge: Cayugas can't sell tax-free cigarettes [Re: BJ Radford]
SFisWonderful Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/30/08
Posts: 1928
Loc: NEW YORK
Originally Posted By: BJ Radford
I do not agree with Judge Fisher's ruling so I would tell you the Cayugas should be able to sell cigs, gas and other items as they have in the past, free of state excise and sales tax.


To clear up my confusion, on what basis do you feel the Cayuga Nation "should be able to sell cigs, gas and other items as they have in the past, free of state excise and sales tax?"

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#1003316 --- 04/03/09 01:14 AM Re: Judge: Cayugas can't sell tax-free cigarettes [Re: BJ Radford]
SFisWonderful Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/30/08
Posts: 1928
Loc: NEW YORK
Originally Posted By: BJ Radford
Last I checked the COO (and everyone else I know with this title)is responsible for generating income.

And how far do you go to generate income?

Do you willingly advise a company that abuses their ancestors by exploiting their history for money?

Does it make you happy that you knowingly divide the country which you claim to be apart of? In case you forgot, its the United States of America not the Divided States of America with the tribal governments scattered throughout.

Why would you support something that kills people with cancer? Is that your main goal in life, to get cheap cigs to addicted smokers?

Be honest, if not for me or anyone else, for yourself.

I dont expect answers to my questions, it least not honest and direct ones. Maybe when your NOT trying to screw over the system and kill everyone with cancer in the process, you can think to yourself what your real purpose is in life and who you should help with your talents.

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#1003457 --- 04/03/09 07:29 AM Re: Judge: Cayugas can't sell tax-free cigarettes [Re: BJ Radford]
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32556
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: BJ Radford
... I can assure you I am successful at my job.
I can not speak for native ancestors and culture.


No discredit to you but it would be rather easy to be successful when one operates above the laws that all others must follow.

Originally Posted By: BJ Radford
Do I do as my boss tells me? Absolutely! Isn't that how one keeps a job?


If an employee is told to do illegal actions then does the employee perform the task(s)?
_________________________
"OUR COUNTRY IS IN MOURNING, A SOLDIER DIED TODAY."

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#1003466 --- 04/03/09 07:35 AM Re: Judge: Cayugas can't sell tax-free cigarettes [Re: BJ Radford]
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32556
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: BJ Radford
In my experience, many people use a difference of opinion as an excuse to forget their manners.

If people treat me with respect they receive it back.
Originally Posted By: BJ Radford
You strongly disagree with me.

I cannot say that I disagree with you as you are only an employee but rather the manner that the Cayuga's choose the laws that suit them.
Originally Posted By: BJ Radford
I do not agree with Judge Fisher's ruling so I would tell you the Cayugas should be able to sell cigs, gas and other items as they have in the past, free of state excise and sales tax.

You have raised the Sherrill decision in prior posts and the fact that the Cayuga's are applying for trust simply states that the reservation is non-existent in NY unless one looks in Canada as you have already confirmed.

_________________________
"OUR COUNTRY IS IN MOURNING, A SOLDIER DIED TODAY."

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#1003483 --- 04/03/09 08:01 AM Re: Judge: Cayugas can't sell tax-free cigarettes [Re: bluezone]
BJ Radford Offline
Member

Registered: 03/30/09
Posts: 314
Loc: Geneva
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: BJ Radford
... I can assure you I am successful at my job.
I can not speak for native ancestors and culture.


No discredit to you but it would be rather easy to be successful when one operates above the laws tha all others must follow.

No discredit taken - and your point is valid. That said, my job is far from easy!

Originally Posted By: BJ Radford
Do I do as my boss tells me? Absolutely! Isn't that how one keeps a job?


If an employee is told to do illegal actions then does the employee perform the task(s)?


I suppose that is up to the individual. Personally I would not. I do not believe that my employer has asked me to do anything illegal.

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#1003484 --- 04/03/09 08:06 AM Re: Judge: Cayugas can't sell tax-free cigarettes [Re: BJ Radford]
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32556
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: BJ Radford
... That said, my job is far from easy!



Speaking more about the highly profitable operation rather then the job to be performed.
_________________________
"OUR COUNTRY IS IN MOURNING, A SOLDIER DIED TODAY."

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#1003960 --- 04/04/09 03:50 AM Re: Judge: Cayugas can't sell tax-free cigarettes [Re: BJ Radford]
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32556
Loc: USA
Cigarette decision still in limbo
By Nate Robson / The Citizen

Friday, April 3, 2009 11:47 PM EDT

ROCHESTER - It will still be another couple of weeks before an appeals court will rule on the legality of a pending felony tax evasion case against the Cayuga Nation for possessing untaxed cigarettes at two of its convenience stores.
Five state Appellate Division judges spent a half-hour Friday listening to arguments and questioning attorneys from the tribe and Cayuga and Seneca counties in preparation for their decision, which could set a precedent for how cigarette excise taxes are collected from nation-owned businesses statewide.

The hearing was the most recent in a series of appeals filed between the tribe and the counties after state Supreme Court Judge Kenneth Fisher ruled on Dec. 9 that the counties could file felony tax evasion charges against the nation for possessing nearly 3 million untaxed cigarettes.

The cigarettes were seized during joint raids of the nation-owned Lake Side Trading stores in Union Springs and Seneca Falls on Nov. 25. Fisher is the same judge who signed the warrants authorizing those raids.

Ian Gershengorn, an attorney for the nation, was the first one placed in the hot seat when Judge Samuel Green asked him what would happen if the court decided that a 2006 case, which Green helped write a decision for, did not apply in the tribe's situation.

In that case, the court ruled that the state can not collect excise taxes on purchases made within a reservation because a coupon system had not been implemented by the state to exempt tribal members from paying those taxes.

While that case dealt with the sale of untaxed cigarettes and the case against the Cayugas only deals with possession, Gershengorn said they both revolved around the coupons.

“Logic requires the same holding here even if they are different on that aspect,” Gershengorn said. “Without the coupons, taxation can't be enforced. (In the other case) they were in the same position as the Cayugas are now.”

With the counties believing they can file charges against the nation because their stores are not on a reservation, justices John Centra and Erin Peradotto asked Philip Spellane, an

attorney representing the counties, how taxes could be collected if the court ruled against his clients and said the stores are on sovereign land.

With an injunction placed on the only law meant to collect taxes from on-reservation purchases, Spellane said the counties current case would no longer be valid because they are currently charging the tribe under a law meant for off-reservation purchases.

Even if the court were to decide the stores are on a reservation, Spellane said the Cayugas could be told to use two different inventories; one of cigarettes with a tax stamp and one without a stamp. Cigarettes without a stamp would only be sold to Cayuga Nation members while taxed cigarettes would be sold to non-tribe members.

But Lee Alcott, an attorney for the Cayugas, said that system would still need coupons to work.

“If the county makes up a system involving two piles of cigarettes, the only way to determine how many untaxed cigarettes the store can sell will have to involve coupons of some type,” Alcott said. “So everything comes back to the state and tax departments policy of forbearance.”

While Cayuga County District Attorney Jon Budelmann said he believes the judges did a fair and thorough job questioning the attorneys, he said some of the questions did concern him.

“I was a little discouraged about them asking use to assume there is a reservation, and what then,” Budelmann said. “It's like asking us to assume there is going to be red snow tomorrow. There just isn't going to be, and there isn't a reservation.”

If the court decides against the county, Budelmann said his office will have to talk to the county to decide if they want to spend more money and appeal.

If the tribe loses, Alcott said they will file an appeal, which will likely move the case up to the state's Court of Appeals.

“I think either side will file an appeal if they lose,” Alcott said. “We can't just file an appeal though, we will have to have a reason.”

Staff writer Nate Robson can be reached at 253-5311 ext. 248 or nathan.robson@lee.net
_________________________
"OUR COUNTRY IS IN MOURNING, A SOLDIER DIED TODAY."

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#1003972 --- 04/04/09 04:05 AM Re: Judge: Cayugas can't sell tax-free cigarettes [Re: bluezone]
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32556
Loc: USA
Will all the landowners get their taxes back if they say that this is a reservation?
_________________________
"OUR COUNTRY IS IN MOURNING, A SOLDIER DIED TODAY."

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#1004529 --- 04/05/09 06:38 AM Re: Judge: Cayugas can't sell tax-free cigarettes [Re: bluezone]
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32556
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: bluezone
But Lee Alcott, an attorney for the Cayugas, said that system would still need coupons to work.


And when the coupons are handed out the tribe will have to comply.
_________________________
"OUR COUNTRY IS IN MOURNING, A SOLDIER DIED TODAY."

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#1004590 --- 04/05/09 10:10 AM Re: Judge: Cayugas can't sell tax-free cigarettes [Re: BJ Radford]
Rich_Tallcot Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/19/03
Posts: 5565
Loc: Greeneville, TN
Originally Posted By: BJ Radford
I suppose that depends on what your definition of sales tax is.
I believe SCOTUS defined what the definition of sales tax was when the state won the right to collect those taxes at tribal businesses.

SCOTUS also defined what the word "now" means in the Rhode Island case. That was a "statutory" ruling, meaning Congress could change - with a great degree of work - the impact of the ruling.

HOWEVER, the SCOTUS ruling on Hawaii, I think it was Tuesday, cinched it! The feds can't take state sovereign lands without the state's permission. The Hawaii ruling is a Constitutional ruling and cannot be overturned by Congress,

Have a nice day. Just got back from D.C. and was at the House hearing pertaining to Rhode Island. \:\)

Then again, one COULD ask what the definition of the word "is" means. LOL

It's a new ball game !!!! Have a nice day.

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#1004597 --- 04/05/09 10:22 AM Re: Judge: Cayugas can't sell tax-free cigarettes [Re: Rich_Tallcot]
Rich_Tallcot Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/19/03
Posts: 5565
Loc: Greeneville, TN
BJ: "I do not believe that my employer has asked me to do anything illegal."

Big mistake.

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#1004604 --- 04/05/09 10:30 AM Re: Judge: Cayugas can't sell tax-free cigarettes [Re: Rich_Tallcot]
BJ Radford Offline
Member

Registered: 03/30/09
Posts: 314
Loc: Geneva
I guess I would rather wait for the Appellate's court decision on that than take your opinion. Your opinions, although I generally feel come from a well researched position, are not relevant as it relates to my employer/employee relationship.

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#1004617 --- 04/05/09 11:19 AM Re: Judge: Cayugas can't sell tax-free cigarettes [Re: Rich_Tallcot]
trump Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/15/08
Posts: 887
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
It's a new ball game !!!! Have a nice day.


Great news Rich. I am glad our local elected officals didn't cave into them.
_________________________
http://www.nocayugalandintotrust.net

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#1004648 --- 04/05/09 01:48 PM Re: Judge: Cayugas can't sell tax-free cigarettes [Re: Rich_Tallcot]
SilverFox Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/19/00
Posts: 6485
Loc: Waterloo
Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
Originally Posted By: BJ Radford
I suppose that depends on what your definition of sales tax is.
I believe SCOTUS defined what the definition of sales tax was when the state won the right to collect those taxes at tribal businesses.

SCOTUS also defined what the word "now" means in the Rhode Island case. That was a "statutory" ruling, meaning Congress could change - with a great degree of work - the impact of the ruling.

HOWEVER, the SCOTUS ruling on Hawaii, I think it was Tuesday, cinched it! The feds can't take state sovereign lands without the state's permission. The Hawaii ruling is a Constitutional ruling and cannot be overturned by Congress,

Have a nice day. Just got back from D.C. and was at the House hearing pertaining to Rhode Island. \:\)

Then again, one COULD ask what the definition of the word "is" means. LOL

It's a new ball game !!!! Have a nice day.


Somebody please lock Gov. Paterson in a closet so he can't agree to any negotiated deals that give away NYS land. \:\(
_________________________



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#1004698 --- 04/05/09 04:08 PM Re: Judge: Cayugas can't sell tax-free cigarettes [Re: SilverFox]
HighC Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 03/09/08
Posts: 17
Loc: Out of my mind
I was posting to this topic and haven't participated in a couple of days. Why? Because I have been evaluating the posts by BJRadford. I was surprised that she would take the approach of posting here.

I have talked with the real BJ, she is a very direct and knowledgeable businesswoman. The posts on this thread are somewhat knowledgeable but are very coy, NOT the directness or knowledge that she would have. Posts are usually reflections of someone's personality.

I do believe that the poster is employed by by the Cayugas, but not the real BJRadford.

JMHO. I will retract my statement and verify that it is the true BJRadford if challenged. I do not believe this is a violation of this sites terms of use because this poster is representing to be a real persons identity.

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#1005001 --- 04/06/09 08:20 AM Re: Judge: Cayugas can't sell tax-free cigarettes [Re: HighC]
BJ Radford Offline
Member

Registered: 03/30/09
Posts: 314
Loc: Geneva
Originally Posted By: HighC
I was posting to this topic and haven't participated in a couple of days. Why? Because I have been evaluating the posts by BJRadford. I was surprised that she would take the approach of posting here.

I have talked with the real BJ, she is a very direct and knowledgeable businesswoman. The posts on this thread are somewhat knowledgeable but are very coy, NOT the directness or knowledge that she would have. Posts are usually reflections of someone's personality.

It's really me! Anyone who wonders - call me at 568-6457 and I will verify - tough to escpe this gravelly voice I have! Thanks for the compliment.

I would agree that my posts are somewhat guarded. I have stated, I run the risk of posters thinking I speak for the Nation, which I do not. I'm sure you can understand. If you worked for a controversial company would you not think carefully before posting about them?

I also, again as I have already said, really think that this is a great opportunity for people to voice their opinions and maybe even vent. I don't feel a need to do either.

I have been frustrated over the years at the assumptions people make about the Nation. What I percieve to be a lack of desire to learn the facts, just a willingness to assume that because they disagree with the Nation's position, the Nation must do everything wrong (at least in their opinion!) I entered the forum to hadle those issues.

I have learned things as a result of my involvement here, which I am always anxious to do, and for that I thank the posters. The thing I do find frustrating about this arena is the anonymity of the posters. I realize that's the point, but I am a direct person - I'd be happy to know anyone's identity who is willing to offer their's up!


I do believe that the poster is employed by by the Cayugas, but not the real BJRadford.

JMHO. I will retract my statement and verify that it is the true BJRadford if challenged. I do not believe this is a violation of this sites terms of use because this poster is representing to be a real persons identity.

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#1005003 --- 04/06/09 08:23 AM Re: Judge: Cayugas can't sell tax-free cigarettes [Re: BJ Radford]
BJ Radford Offline
Member

Registered: 03/30/09
Posts: 314
Loc: Geneva
Originally Posted By: BJ Radford
I guess I would rather wait for the Appellate's court decision on that than take your opinion. Your opinions, although I generally feel come from a well researched position, are not relevant as it relates to my employer/employee relationship.


I owe you an apology. in the rereading, my post sounds a little snappy. Not my intention. The content is true but my delivery wasn't great. I was in a hurry and didn't choose my words well.

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#1005301 --- 04/06/09 04:51 PM Re: Judge: Cayugas can't sell tax-free cigarettes [Re: Rich_Tallcot]
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32556
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
Originally Posted By: BJ Radford
I suppose that depends on what your definition of sales tax is.
I believe SCOTUS defined what the definition of sales tax was when the state won the right to collect those taxes at tribal businesses.



BJR must have missed that SCOTUS decision.


Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
The feds can't take state sovereign lands without the state's permission.


There should be no reason for NY to give up NY land.

_________________________
"OUR COUNTRY IS IN MOURNING, A SOLDIER DIED TODAY."

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#1005303 --- 04/06/09 04:55 PM Re: Judge: Cayugas can't sell tax-free cigarettes [Re: BJ Radford]
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32556
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: BJ Radford
Originally Posted By: bluezone
BJR - Currently Lakeside is unable to sell cigarettes per the ruling by the judge. Should the same apply to the gas as sales taxes are not being paid by the tribe either and the land is not in trust?


I do not agree with Judge Fisher's ruling so I would tell you the Cayugas should be able to sell cigs, gas and other items as they have in the past, free of state excise and sales tax.


Then you must also not agree with the SCOTUS decison regarding Sherrill. Land purchased by the tribe is not sovereign land.
_________________________
"OUR COUNTRY IS IN MOURNING, A SOLDIER DIED TODAY."

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#1005624 --- 04/07/09 08:26 AM Re: Judge: Cayugas can't sell tax-free cigarettes [Re: Rich_Tallcot]
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32556
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
BJ: "I do not believe that my employer has asked me to do anything illegal."

Big mistake.



Did she read the Sherrill ruling? ;\)
_________________________
"OUR COUNTRY IS IN MOURNING, A SOLDIER DIED TODAY."

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#1006010 --- 04/07/09 06:12 PM Re: Judge: Cayugas can't sell tax-free cigarettes [Re: BJ Radford]
SFisWonderful Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/30/08
Posts: 1928
Loc: NEW YORK
Originally Posted By: BJ Radford
Originally Posted By: HighC
I was posting to this topic and haven't participated in a couple of days. Why? Because I have been evaluating the posts by BJRadford. I was surprised that she would take the approach of posting here.

I have talked with the real BJ, she is a very direct and knowledgeable businesswoman. The posts on this thread are somewhat knowledgeable but are very coy, NOT the directness or knowledge that she would have. Posts are usually reflections of someone's personality.

It's really me! Anyone who wonders - call me at 568-6457 and I will verify - tough to escpe this gravelly voice I have! Thanks for the compliment.

I would agree that my posts are somewhat guarded. I have stated, I run the risk of posters thinking I speak for the Nation, which I do not. I'm sure you can understand. If you worked for a controversial company would you not think carefully before posting about them?

I also, again as I have already said, really think that this is a great opportunity for people to voice their opinions and maybe even vent. I don't feel a need to do either.

I have been frustrated over the years at the assumptions people make about the Nation. What I percieve to be a lack of desire to learn the facts, just a willingness to assume that because they disagree with the Nation's position, the Nation must do everything wrong (at least in their opinion!) I entered the forum to hadle those issues.

I have learned things as a result of my involvement here, which I am always anxious to do, and for that I thank the posters. The thing I do find frustrating about this arena is the anonymity of the posters. I realize that's the point, but I am a direct person - I'd be happy to know anyone's identity who is willing to offer their's up!


I do believe that the poster is employed by by the Cayugas, but not the real BJRadford.

JMHO. I will retract my statement and verify that it is the true BJRadford if challenged. I do not believe this is a violation of this sites terms of use because this poster is representing to be a real persons identity.

It would have been nice if you could have separated your post and HighC's post, no worries, I figured it out.

I'll be honest, for as much I post on here about the Cayugas, to some (Harley, Izzy, RG, reilly, and others) it really sounds like I hate them and as some would say - RACIST!

It's not that. . .its just the way you (BJ) and your company come across. Just a few points that make me feel this way:

-I honestly cant see where your millions of $$$ in profit has helped any tribe members besides the top level tribal government leaders. Let's not forget the lawyers, you have provided an outstanding paycheck for all the lawyers you keep busy. I cant even keep track of all lawyers you hire, as I hear a different names all the time.

-The only reason you push so hard for a reservation status is to continue selling cigs and gas.

-Everything is about the handouts and taxbreaks, the tribal governments are always looking for the next handout or the next tax break. Dont get me wrong, I feel overtaxed but I do understand that taxes are needed for this country to survive (the tax money that is wasted is another story). If you dont understand how come taxes are needed. . .good luck driving to Rochester or Syracuse on any highway as a bridge might be rusted out and your car goes careening off the edge.

-The tribal governments never seem concerned with their heritage until it comes time for payback of what happened 200 years ago.

-I know people that have a strong native american heritage and they choose not to live on a res or be part of this give-me give-me look for hand outs and tax break operation. They live normal lives, work normal jobs and they pay what the government tells them to pay.

-I could support your stance on the outrages taxes IF you werent putting so much time and effort into making it about a select group of people. This select group of people isnt even native americans-it's TRIBAL GOVERNMENTS!

-Many of the people on this forum that support the so called "tax free right" of the tribal governments only do so because it saves them money on cigs. If the tribal govs sold only tax free dreamcatchers, I am willing to bet your support wouldnt even be HALF of what it is. This probably wouldnt even be in court if dreamcatchers were being sold. You know cigs and gas are a hot item and know the profits are OUT OF SIGHT-this is what fuels the Cayugas drive and financial means of fighting this in court.

-I am surprised the tribal governments dont open stores that sell fireworks as they are 200% sure they are right that NYS laws do not apply to them

-The world has changed immensely in 200 years. Doctors and scientist had little knowledge on the side effects of smoking. This is 2009, a lot has changed and we are less ignorant of many things. I really think its time the native american tribal governments join the rest of society IN 2009, not the 1700's.

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#1006164 --- 04/07/09 10:57 PM Re: Judge: Cayugas can't sell tax-free cigarettes [Re: bluezone]
Rich_Tallcot Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/19/03
Posts: 5565
Loc: Greeneville, TN
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
BJ: "I do not believe that my employer has asked me to do anything illegal."

Big mistake.



Did she read the Sherrill ruling? ;\)
She gets paid to not know.

Hopefully the judges will read the Sherrill ruling before they issue a decision.

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#1006200 --- 04/08/09 03:56 AM Re: Judge: Cayugas can't sell tax-free cigarettes [Re: bluezone]
BJ Radford Offline
Member

Registered: 03/30/09
Posts: 314
Loc: Geneva
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
BJ: "I do not believe that my employer has asked me to do anything illegal."

Big mistake.



Did she read the Sherrill ruling? ;\)


Yes she did. My interpretation of that ruling is that it dealt with the issue of sovereignty - not reservation status. The issues currently before the Appellate court deal with 471E and reservation status. I was in court Friday and I don't recall anyone using the word sovereignty. How do you see the Sherrill decision as relevant?

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#1006201 --- 04/08/09 04:07 AM Re: Judge: Cayugas can't sell tax-free cigarettes [Re: SFisWonderful]
BJ Radford Offline
Member

Registered: 03/30/09
Posts: 314
Loc: Geneva
I agree I should have separated my post from High C's. I just can't figure out how to do it! Not the best at figuring the buttons out!

I have not called one person on these posts a racist.

I agree the county, like every other, needs tax revenue to survive. One of the reasons I am so pro-settlement. I believe the settlement offer of two years ago provided more revenue to the county than they could ever have expected to collect in property taxes from the involved properties.

I agree that way too much money is being paid to lawyers here - both Nation and county lawyers.

I disagree that only tribal leaders benefit. I have seen many benefits Cayugas benefit from the Nation's business revenues.

Every Cayuga I know is very interested in their heritage.

I agree that if we sold only tax free dreamcatchers business would be drastically reduced and we wouldn't be in court. The reason we wouldn't be in court is because the counties would never have bothered to raid the stores.

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#1006310 --- 04/08/09 06:34 AM Re: Judge: Cayugas can't sell tax-free cigarettes [Re: BJ Radford]
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32556
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: BJ Radford
Yes she did. My interpretation of that ruling is that it dealt with the issue of sovereignty - not reservation status. The issues currently before the Appellate court deal with 471E and reservation status. I was in court Friday and I don't recall anyone using the word sovereignty. How do you see the Sherrill decision as relevant?


Did the Sherrill ruling state that the tribes cannot buy land and call it sovereign/establish a reservation?
If the smokeshops are on a reservation then why does the tribe pay property taxes on them?
471e states that the tribe must pay the sales taxes (collect and remit per your words) for non-native purchases.
You also stated that the tribe closed their bingo hall because the county passed a law against it. Is that how reservation land operates by the rules of the county?
_________________________
"OUR COUNTRY IS IN MOURNING, A SOLDIER DIED TODAY."

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#1006322 --- 04/08/09 07:20 AM Re: Judge: Cayugas can't sell tax-free cigarettes [Re: BJ Radford]
trump Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/15/08
Posts: 887
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: BJ Radford
I agree I should have separated my post from High C's. I just can't figure out how to do it! Not the best at figuring the buttons out!

To reply to someone, push "quote" rather than "reply" to show their message in your message. I think you are already doing that. Then just be sure you only type your reply after the last word {/quote} in brackets in their message.

Once you figure this out I can explain how to include only part of their message but that is a little tricker as you often see posters on here messing that up.

_________________________
http://www.nocayugalandintotrust.net

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#1006326 --- 04/08/09 07:27 AM Re: Judge: Cayugas can't sell tax-free cigarettes [Re: trump]
BJ Radford Offline
Member

Registered: 03/30/09
Posts: 314
Loc: Geneva
Originally Posted By: trump
Originally Posted By: BJ Radford
I agree I should have separated my post from High C's. I just can't figure out how to do it! Not the best at figuring the buttons out!

To reply to someone, push "quote" rather than "reply" to show their message in your message. I think you are already doing that. Then just be sure you only type your reply after the last word {/quote} in brackets in their message.

Once you figure this out I can explain how to include only part of their message but that is a little tricker as you often see posters on here messing that up.

Thanks trump. Let's see if it worked!

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#1006327 --- 04/08/09 07:27 AM Re: Judge: Cayugas can't sell tax-free cigarettes [Re: BJ Radford]
bluezone Offline
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Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32556
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: BJ Radford

I have seen many benefits Cayugas benefit from the Nation's business revenues.


Is that why the Cayuga's had to ask the Federal Government for HUD money to build them a housing complex?

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#1006607 --- 04/08/09 05:04 PM Re: Judge: Cayugas can't sell tax-free cigarettes [Re: BJ Radford]
SilverFox Offline
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Registered: 11/19/00
Posts: 6485
Loc: Waterloo
What you fail to understand/acknowledge is the fact that SCOTUS already ruled the states have a right to collect sales tax on sales to non-Natives regardless of whether it is on a reservation or not. That means even if the Cayugas had a reservation they would still be liable for the sales tax collection and payment to the state. The highest court in the U.S. already ruled. How can they continue to appeal? There is no where else to appeal.

As for Sovereignty, that only applies to sales to members of the Cayuga tribe, not all members of other tribes. Example: an Onandaga Indian goes to the Seneca Reservation and buys cigarettes he/she has to pay the sales tax. That same Onandaga Indian goes to his own Onandaga reservation he can buy cigarettes tax free. Sovereignty is specific to each reservation and grants the right to that paticular tribe to conduct it's own business and tribal governmental affairs within the boundries of their own reservation with only their own tribe members without interference. Off their reservation they are subject to the same laws the rest of us have to follow regardless of the fact they are Native American. I hope I explained that clearly enough to be understood. Sovereignty is not as broad based, do whatever you want to because you are Native American, as people believe.

As for wasting money in court, it is the Cayugas that are responsible for that because they will not accept SCOTUS decisions and continue to disobey the law. They would only be sovereign on their own reservation (which was a NYS reservation and they sold it back to NYS 200 years ago) or on Trust Land which they don't have at this time. It is the opinion of many that they do not meet the qualifications for Trust Land because they never had a FederalReservation.
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#1006630 --- 04/08/09 06:16 PM Re: Judge: Cayugas can't sell tax-free cigarettes [Re: SilverFox]
trump Offline
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Registered: 11/15/08
Posts: 887
Loc: USA
Great thread, SilverFox. East to read and very informative.
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#1006872 --- 04/09/09 06:36 AM Re: Judge: Cayugas can't sell tax-free cigarettes [Re: SilverFox]
bluezone Offline
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Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32556
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: SilverFox
What you fail to understand/acknowledge is the fact that SCOTUS already ruled the states have a right to collect sales tax on sales to non-Natives regardless of whether it is on a reservation or not...


Some will just never understand....
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#1006965 --- 04/09/09 10:25 AM Re: Judge: Cayugas can't sell tax-free cigarettes [Re: bluezone]
SilverFox Offline
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Registered: 11/19/00
Posts: 6485
Loc: Waterloo
Not because they can't understand. It is because they don't want to understand.
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#1006966 --- 04/09/09 10:28 AM Re: Judge: Cayugas can't sell tax-free cigarettes [Re: SilverFox]
trump Offline
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Registered: 11/15/08
Posts: 887
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: SilverFox
What you fail to understand/acknowledge is the fact that SCOTUS already ruled the states have a right to collect sales tax on sales to non-Natives regardless of whether it is on a reservation or not. That means even if the Cayugas had a reservation they would still be liable for the sales tax collection and payment to the state. The highest court in the U.S. already ruled. How can they continue to appeal? There is no where else to appeal.


Why I don't understand is if this is the case why our elected officals don't enforce the law? Isn't that why we elected them?
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#1006973 --- 04/09/09 10:48 AM Re: Judge: Cayugas can't sell tax-free cigarettes [Re: trump]
SilverFox Offline
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Registered: 11/19/00
Posts: 6485
Loc: Waterloo
I think it is because years ago when the governor tried to enforce it the Indians burned tires on the thruway. It was easier to let it slide then to enforce it. Just like a parent that doesn't discipline a child.

Personally, I don't agree with the coupon system either. I see too much room for abuse of a coupon system. I think it should be done strictly by tribal membership cards like it is done in California. These tribes know how many registered tribe members they have. They should be required to submitt these registers to the state and ID cards issued on those names only.
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#1006979 --- 04/09/09 11:13 AM Re: Judge: Cayugas can't sell tax-free cigarettes [Re: SilverFox]
trump Offline
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Registered: 11/15/08
Posts: 887
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: SilverFox
I think it is because years ago when the governor tried to enforce it the Indians burned tires on the thruway. It was easier to let it slide then to enforce it. Just like a parent that doesn't discipline a child.

A lot of people are upset about the current NY state budget. If they all got together and burned some tires and said they were not going to file state income tax returns for this year, what would happen? They would all be charged with a crime for not filing income tax returns. I don't see where the Indians have some much more power than the rest of us. It just baffles me that they have got away with this for so long.
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#1007011 --- 04/09/09 01:21 PM Re: Judge: Cayugas can't sell tax-free cigarettes [Re: trump]
SilverFox Offline
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Registered: 11/19/00
Posts: 6485
Loc: Waterloo
Again, I think it is because the laws are so confusing that the politicians don't have a clear understanding of the issues. On top of that they don't have the time or desire to research the history and court decisions. They choose to take the easy way out and the path of least resistance. They are too trusting of the Native Americans version of things. One thing the Cayugas are saying is that their ancestors were forced to sell their land back to NYS.

I wasn't there 200 years ago and neither were the current Cayugas. However, that doesn't make sense to me. Why would NYS force the Cayugas to sell there land back to the state and allow all the other tribes mentioned in the Treaty of Canandaigua to keep their lands? Doesn't really make any difference at this point in time. They sold it for whatever reason and all was good for 200 years before there was any complaints. Not only did they sell it but the terms of the sale were updated several times resulting in additional payments.

Seeing as how it has only been 5 years, I wonder if the person I sold my house to would be willing to re-negotiate and pay me more now. I sure could use the money. ;\)
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#1007081 --- 04/09/09 05:02 PM Re: Judge: Cayugas can't sell tax-free cigarettes [Re: SilverFox]
bluezone Offline
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Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32556
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: SilverFox
Why would NYS force the Cayugas to sell there land back to the state and allow all the other tribes mentioned in the Treaty of Canandaigua to keep their lands?


The tribe will use any spin to keep their HUGE profits.
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#1007106 --- 04/09/09 05:43 PM Re: Judge: Cayugas can't sell tax-free cigarettes [Re: bluezone]
SilverFox Offline
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Registered: 11/19/00
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I assume you have read the twisted history Halftown provided the BIA in the Trust application. ;\)
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#1007142 --- 04/09/09 06:28 PM Re: Judge: Cayugas can't sell tax-free cigarettes [Re: SilverFox]
bluezone Offline
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Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32556
Loc: USA
What else could he say when he has to spin the facts.
Did BJR vanish already?
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#1007234 --- 04/09/09 11:18 PM Re: Judge: Cayugas can't sell tax-free cigarettes [Re: bluezone]
SilverFox Offline
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Registered: 11/19/00
Posts: 6485
Loc: Waterloo
Maybe she finally realized she was making a fool of herself repeating the twisted truth her employers fed her when she was presented with the real facts. There are always at least two sides to every story.


Edited by SilverFox (04/09/09 11:19 PM)
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#1007238 --- 04/09/09 11:55 PM Re: Judge: Cayugas can't sell tax-free cigarettes [Re: SilverFox]
SFisWonderful Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/30/08
Posts: 1928
Loc: NEW YORK
Originally Posted By: SilverFox
Again, I think it is because the laws are so confusing that the politicians don't have a clear understanding of the issues. On top of that they don't have the time or desire to research the history and court decisions. They choose to take the easy way out and the path of least resistance. They are too trusting of the Native Americans version of things. One thing the Cayugas are saying is that their ancestors were forced to sell their land back to NYS.

I wasn't there 200 years ago and neither were the current Cayugas. However, that doesn't make sense to me. Why would NYS force the Cayugas to sell there land back to the state and allow all the other tribes mentioned in the Treaty of Canandaigua to keep their lands? Doesn't really make any difference at this point in time. They sold it for whatever reason and all was good for 200 years before there was any complaints. Not only did they sell it but the terms of the sale were updated several times resulting in additional payments.

Seeing as how it has only been 5 years, I wonder if the person I sold my house to would be willing to re-negotiate and pay me more now. I sure could use the money. ;\)

5 years is way too soon! lol. You need to make a treaty that says you were forced to move and sell your house. Every new owner of this house will be subject to giving handouts to anyone that is related to you (even your 100th cousin once removed) 200 years from now.

Think of the benefits, this will be better than any sum of money YOU could leave them. This way, you pass the buck to the future owners! MAYBE you could get those mean/diseased/european people to buy your next house! LOL!!

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#1007335 --- 04/10/09 07:21 AM Re: Judge: Cayugas can't sell tax-free cigarettes [Re: SilverFox]
bluezone Offline
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Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32556
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: SilverFox
I assume you have read the twisted history Halftown provided the BIA in the Trust application. ;\)



Did he thank the fallen soldiers or their families for protecting this land for the past 200 years?

or did he thank the USA for spending trillions of dollars defending this land so that he could walk around with all the rights and priviledges that he only expects others to adhere to?

Disrepecting our fallen soliders.


UNITED WE STAND
UNITED WE STAND
UNITED WE STAND

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#1007523 --- 04/10/09 06:02 PM Re: Judge: Cayugas can't sell tax-free cigarettes [Re: bluezone]
SilverFox Offline
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Registered: 11/19/00
Posts: 6485
Loc: Waterloo
Gee, not that I can remember reading. I don't think that was any thanks to anyone. Here is the link to the trust application and cover letter written by Halftown to the BIA in 2006.

http://www.cayuganationtrust.net/110606_...rt%20110606.pdf

All I saw was the same tired twisted half truths blah blah.
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#1007603 --- 04/10/09 10:34 PM Re: Judge: Cayugas can't sell tax-free cigarettes [Re: bluezone]
Rich_Tallcot Offline
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Registered: 01/19/03
Posts: 5565
Loc: Greeneville, TN
I do not recall thanks for anything. That is rather difficult to do when all one does is feel sorry for oneself for what happened 200 years ago. American Indians have a higher rate of joining the military than any other. I think a lot of that has to do with reservation life and the boredom to this socialist welfare system created and sustained by our own Congress.

Schumer and Arcuri are in favor of it. They both want to cut deals and create more trust lands.

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#1007609 --- 04/10/09 11:35 PM Re: Judge: Cayugas can't sell tax-free cigarettes [Re: Rich_Tallcot]
SilverFox Offline
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Registered: 11/19/00
Posts: 6485
Loc: Waterloo
Unfortunately, I think Paterson is prone to selling us out too.
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#1007742 --- 04/11/09 09:43 AM Re: Judge: Cayugas can't sell tax-free cigarettes [Re: SilverFox]
justaxme Offline
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Registered: 08/31/05
Posts: 2351
Loc: On top?
Originally Posted By: SilverFox
Unfortunately, I think Paterson is prone to selling us out too.


http://www.13wham.com/news/local/story/G...eQ.cspx?rss=102

"the governor said he is requesting private meetings with the Indian nations....." Gov Patsy

Are you kidding me? The indians are probably tripping over themselves to accept that deal. Gov Patsy couldn't negotiate his way out of a paper bag!! It's laughable!!!

So he can screw us over like they (3 men in a room) do with their private meetings on the state budget!!! Great! I say three men, but I apologize to all real men who I have insulted by comparing them to Gov Patsy, Silver and the other guy.


Edited by justaxme (04/11/09 09:46 AM)
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I'm Justaxme, and I approved this message.

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#1007777 --- 04/11/09 12:40 PM Re: Judge: Cayugas can't sell tax-free cigarettes [Re: justaxme]
SilverFox Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/19/00
Posts: 6485
Loc: Waterloo
To me the only negotiation should be obey the laws, pay all taxes or all services to your businesses will be cut off - Period. There can not be any justice with two sets of laws. One set for the Cayugas and one set for the rest of us. I am tired of seeing two counties torn apart financially and emotionally for the sole benefit of 400-500 people wanting special priviledges for something their ancestors did over 200 years ago. Their ancestors sold the land to NYS no matter how they spin their version of history. That was 200 years ago - get over it.

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#1008471 --- 04/13/09 08:21 AM Re: Judge: Cayugas can't sell tax-free cigarettes [Re: bluezone]
BJ Radford Offline
Member

Registered: 03/30/09
Posts: 314
Loc: Geneva
Originally Posted By: bluezone
What else could he say when he has to spin the facts.
Did BJR vanish already?


Nope - vanishing is not my nature. I'm still here!

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#1008484 --- 04/13/09 09:06 AM Re: Judge: Cayugas can't sell tax-free cigarettes [Re: BJ Radford]
trump Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/15/08
Posts: 887
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: BJ Radford
Originally Posted By: bluezone
What else could he say when he has to spin the facts.
Did BJR vanish already?


Nope - vanishing is not my nature. I'm still here!


Glad to see you are still here. With all the discussion you have helped generate on here, I think a lot more people now understand how badly the Indians are ripping off the taxpayers.
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#1008514 --- 04/13/09 10:08 AM Re: Judge: Cayugas can't sell tax-free cigarettes [Re: trump]
BJ Radford Offline
Member

Registered: 03/30/09
Posts: 314
Loc: Geneva
Originally Posted By: trump
Originally Posted By: BJ Radford
Originally Posted By: bluezone
What else could he say when he has to spin the facts.
Did BJR vanish already?


Nope - vanishing is not my nature. I'm still here!


Glad to see you are still here. With all the discussion you have helped generate on here, I think a lot more people now understand how badly the Indians are ripping off the taxpayers.


Boy oh boy trump - you are a beauty! I'm not sure I generated any "new" discussion. Looks mostly to me like the sames posters and the same stories.

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#1008517 --- 04/13/09 10:13 AM Re: Judge: Cayugas can't sell tax-free cigarettes [Re: BJ Radford]
RedGreen Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/07/06
Posts: 8679
Loc: Charlotte
Originally Posted By: BJ Radford


Boy oh boy trump - you are a beauty! I'm not sure I generated any "new" discussion. Looks mostly to me like the sames posters and the same stories.

Boy, isn't that the truth.

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#1008549 --- 04/13/09 12:03 PM Re: Judge: Cayugas can't sell tax-free cigarettes [Re: BJ Radford]
trump Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/15/08
Posts: 887
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: BJ Radford
Originally Posted By: trump
Originally Posted By: BJ Radford
Originally Posted By: bluezone
What else could he say when he has to spin the facts.
Did BJR vanish already?


Nope - vanishing is not my nature. I'm still here!


Glad to see you are still here. With all the discussion you have helped generate on here, I think a lot more people now understand how badly the Indians are ripping off the taxpayers.


Boy oh boy trump - you are a beauty! I'm not sure I generated any "new" discussion. Looks mostly to me like the sames posters and the same stories.

It is the same stories because the truth doesn't change. I noticed you registered here on 3/30/09. Were you reading the forums for some time before you started posting? Since you started posting there has definitely been new people posting on the Indian threads. Of course those have been most interested for a long time post the most because they are most knowlegable on the subject. But you have ceratainly generated a lot of interest with your comments. I stand by my original comment above.
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#1008558 --- 04/13/09 12:26 PM Re: Judge: Cayugas can't sell tax-free cigarettes [Re: trump]
BJ Radford Offline
Member

Registered: 03/30/09
Posts: 314
Loc: Geneva
Originally Posted By: trump
Originally Posted By: BJ Radford
Originally Posted By: trump
Originally Posted By: BJ Radford
Originally Posted By: bluezone
What else could he say when he has to spin the facts.
Did BJR vanish already?


Nope - vanishing is not my nature. I'm still here!


Glad to see you are still here. With all the discussion you have helped generate on here, I think a lot more people now understand how badly the Indians are ripping off the taxpayers.


Boy oh boy trump - you are a beauty! I'm not sure I generated any "new" discussion. Looks mostly to me like the sames posters and the same stories.

It is the same stories because the truth doesn't change. I noticed you registered here on 3/30/09. Were you reading the forums for some time before you started posting? Since you started posting there has definitely been new people posting on the Indian threads. Of course those have been most interested for a long time post the most because they are most knowlegable on the subject. But you have ceratainly generated a lot of interest with your comments. I stand by my original comment above.


Yes - I have read the posts on and off for years.

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#1011735 --- 04/19/09 09:07 PM Re: Judge: Cayugas can't sell tax-free cigarettes [Re: SilverFox]
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32556
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: SilverFox
Gee, not that I can remember reading. I don't think that was any thanks to anyone. Here is the link to the trust application and cover letter written by Halftown to the BIA in 2006.

http://www.cayuganationtrust.net/110606_...rt%20110606.pdf

All I saw was the same tired twisted half truths blah blah.


cayuga nation of NEW YORK?
are there other cayuga nations? \:D
like say in CANADA?
\:D


"As trust land, the nations land would not be subject to local or county taxation...."

It is not trust land so taxes are due.

The land was gained by illegal profits.

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#1011923 --- 04/20/09 09:09 AM Re: Judge: Cayugas can't sell tax-free cigarettes [Re: BJ Radford]
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32556
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: BJ Radford


Yes - I have read the posts on and off for years.


You stated that the tribe closed their bingo hall because the county passed a law against it. When the county passes a law that states that land cannot be purchased by a tribe will you obey that as well?
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#1012506 --- 04/21/09 07:49 AM Re: Judge: Cayugas can't sell tax-free cigarettes [Re: RedGreen]
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32556
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: RedGreen

Boy, isn't that the truth.



Do you mean "land claims/casino shopping" being beating to dead by the tribes?
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