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#990096 --- 03/06/09 02:06 PM Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case [Re: bluezone]
Driver8 Offline
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Registered: 05/19/00
Posts: 1081
Loc: Seneca Falls
Originally Posted By: bluezone

Will the county go after the illegal money paid to Alcott?
Will Alcott also face felony charges?


Wow. I hope you never need a lawyer. When did being the lawyer for a crook automatically make him a crook too?

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#990153 --- 03/06/09 04:05 PM Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case [Re: Driver8]
Ovidian Offline
Silver Member

Registered: 12/02/02
Posts: 11435
Loc: gone
Money earned in a clients defense is earned justly no matter how wrong the defendant. Thats's a given. Without that we'd be snake free for lack of counsel.

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#990180 --- 03/06/09 04:44 PM Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case [Re: Ovidian]
justaxme Offline
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Registered: 08/31/05
Posts: 2351
Loc: On top?
"When did being the lawyer for a crook automatically make him a crook too?"

It's not automatic, it's a given!! What do you call a lawyer... Ah never mind.
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#990487 --- 03/07/09 01:42 PM Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case [Re: Driver8]
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32556
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Driver8
[quote=bluezone]

Wow. I hope you never need a lawyer. When did being the lawyer for a crook automatically make him a crook too?



Did Alcott know that the tribe was running an illegal business for many years?
Did Alcott get paid from the illegal profits from the illegal business operations?


.
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#990687 --- 03/08/09 04:38 AM Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case [Re: bluezone]
Ranger Offline
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Registered: 10/23/00
Posts: 25141
Loc: GOD's 1/2 acre
It still wouldn't matter BZ, that's what defense lawyers do. I'm sure many of them know the people they are representing are guilty. They still get representation. And the attornies that represent them aren't crooks. I say that tounge in cheek.
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#990757 --- 03/08/09 07:25 AM Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case [Re: Ranger]
pixie Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/24/07
Posts: 1912
Loc: Romulus
yes but tax evasion is a bit diffrent , if a lawyer or accountiant assists or advises a client on how to break the law through tax evasion thay can be charged. no diffrent then if a lawyer assisted a client in planing a bank robbery.
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#990805 --- 03/08/09 09:10 AM Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case [Re: pixie]
justaxme Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/31/05
Posts: 2351
Loc: On top?
Originally Posted By: pixie
yes but tax evasion is a bit diffrent , if a lawyer or accountiant assists or advises a client on how to break the law through tax evasion thay can be charged. no diffrent then if a lawyer assisted a client in planing a bank robbery.


Sounds good to me. Can't imagine any self respecting lawyer would believe they are selling cigs on a reservation AND that the law states anything else but ONLY cigarette sales to other indians is legal. I would think the NYS Bar Assoc should do something.
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#990816 --- 03/08/09 09:35 AM Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case [Re: pixie]
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32556
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: pixie
yes but tax evasion is a bit diffrent , if a lawyer or accountiant assists or advises a client on how to break the law through tax evasion thay can be charged. no diffrent then if a lawyer assisted a client in planing a bank robbery.


And then the lawyer knowingly getting "paid" from the stolen money from the bank robbery.
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#990818 --- 03/08/09 09:39 AM Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case [Re: justaxme]
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32556
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: justaxme
Sounds good to me. Can't imagine any self respecting lawyer would believe they are selling cigs on a reservation

The Supreme Court ruled that it is not indian land and the tribes lawyer knew of this ruling.

Originally Posted By: justaxme

AND that the law states anything else but ONLY cigarette sales to other indians is legal.

Sales to other indians from these two illegal smokeshops are also taxable. The tribe must obey all laws and pay all taxes at these two smokeshops.


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#990842 --- 03/08/09 10:36 AM Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case *DELETED* [Re: Rich_Tallcot]
Rich_Tallcot Offline
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Registered: 01/19/03
Posts: 5565
Loc: Greeneville, TN
http://www.buffalonews.com/home/story/600776.html
Updated: 03/08/09 08:47 AM
FOCUS: INDIAN CIGARETTES
Indian-made cigarettes seen as cheap, toxic and tax-free
The trouble withIndian cigarettes

By Tom Precious
NEWS ALBANY BUREAU

ALBANY - In Iroquois history, Seneca is a name of great pride, the Keepers of the Western Door.

But to thousands of smokers, from California to Florida and from the Caribbean to Mexico and especially in upstate New York, Seneca is something entirely different: a cheap cigarette that has prompted grave health concerns and dozens of lawsuits.

Billions of these Seneca brand cigarettes are made and trafficked within an hour’s drive of Buffalo and sold each year in a sophisticated distribution network. The Seneca brand is just one of a growing number of Indian-made cigarettes flooding the marketplace that has:

* Made health advocates worry that the cheap cigarettes are causing more people-especially teenagers-to get hooked on smoking.

* Failed to meet fire-safety standards and that may contain dangerous metallic elements.

* Prompted 30 states to sue, claiming the cigarettes are being sold illegally.

* Led the federal government, in January, to file a $21 million judgment against the owner of the Seneca brand for failure to pay a federal manufacturers' fee - and led to a bitter legal challenge over whether sales comply with the North American Free Trade Agreement.

Arthur Montour Jr., the Seneca entrepreneur who is behind the Seneca brand, did not return calls seeking comment.

But smoking opponents and government lawyers across the country were more than willing to discuss a booming business that they see as a health hazard as well as a legal travesty.

"The prospect of an Indian cigarette industry, unregulated by the state or even federal governments, is a public health time bomb," said Russell Sciandra, director of the Center for a Tobacco Free New York.

That's partly because the cheap Indian cigarettes provide smokers - including teenagers who buy over the Internet - an alternative at a time when states and now the U. S. government are boosting cigarette taxes.

"The real issue is price," said Gregory Connolly, a public health professor at Harvard University. With the explosion of cheaper Native American cigarettes, he said, "there will be far fewer quitters and increased consumption."

But there are other issues that could be of concern to smokers themselves.

Several of the Native American produced tobacco products do not meet New York’s fire-safe cigarette standards, a 2004 mandate that requires all cigarettes to be self-extinguishing, as a way to reduce smoking related fires. Several Indian brands purchased by The Buffalo News do not appear to contain special bands on the cigarette paper that serve as fire stoppers if smokers fall asleep with cigarettes in their hands.

And at least nine Indian brands, including Seneca - the king of Native American sales are not on the state's fire-safety approved list. The state, though, has done nothing to try to stop those sales.

Metallic elements: Researchers at Roswell Park Cancer Institute want to know, in part, because higher-than-normal levels of two metallic elements - strontium and barium - have been found in some of the brands. Both of those metallic elements can be radioactive.

Scientists believe the metallic elements, sometimes contained in contaminated soil, are absorbed by tobacco plants. Roswell Park scientists, in tests the past year using a lab in Scotland, have found Seneca Light cigarettes with strontium levels twice that of a leading non-Indian brand.

Roswell Park researchers don't know yet if the higher metallic element concentrations pose an added risk beyond the existing toxicity in cigarettes. The higher concentrations of the elements found in some Indian brands "is not something you want to find when lighting up," said Michael Cummings, a longtime tobacco researcher at Roswell Park.

And for states that want to regulate and tax cigarettes, the Indian brands themselves are something they wish they hadn't found pouring into their states.

The cigarettes are made at Grand River Enterprises, a plant on the Six Nations of the Grand River Indian reservation in Ohsweken, Ont., near Hamilton.

These Indian cigarettes are sold cheaply - sometimes a third the price of well-known brands - under names such as Buffalo Deluxe, Heron, Opal and Sky Dancer. And they are sold tax-free, both on the Internet and at Indian reservations across the country. As a result, 30 states have legal actions against those involved with the Seneca brand. Montour, through his firm, Native Wholesale Supply, in Perrysburg, owns the brand.

States claim the cigarettes are sold illegally and without some of the marketing and distribution protections required of other cigarettes.

As just one example, since 2004, at least 300 million Seneca cigarettes have gone through a Las Vegas holding facility at the Big Sandy Rancheria tribe in California, one of the states in court over the Seneca brand sales. That doesn’t include Internet sales, said Dennis Eckhart, head of the California attorney general's tobacco litigation and enforcement section.

The Seneca brand cigarettes violate California's fire-safety standards and are being illegally sold tax-free, Eckhart said.
"Those sales are taxable and fully covered by the laws of the state. They are not exempt," he said.

But Montour, in court filings, says third-party companies, not his, are responsible for any shipments to California.
In Idaho, which is also fighting the Indian cigarette flow in court, 90 million cigarettes have been shipped from Grand River's cigarette plant the past four years to a smoke shop on the Coeur d'Alene Indian Reservation.

"We're a very small state. That gives you an idea of the size of the operation," said Brett DeLange, chief of the consumer protection division in the Idaho attorney general’s office.

Montour and his business partners, in turn, have sued states, saying states are illegally trying to block commerce. Montour also claims that the Seneca brand's sales take place on legal, on-reservation markets.

The United States government, meanwhile, has not only slapped Montour's company for dodging required fees, but it is also in a legal battle over possible violations of the North American Free Trade Agreement.

"Clearly," the largest share of the market for the Indian cigarettes "exists, in reality, off reservation," according to a December filing by the U. S. Justice Department.

And much of the market exists in cyberspace. On one Web site - one of hundreds selling the brand around the country-a carton of 200 Seneca cigarettes was priced at $13, compared with $37 to $50 for well-known cigarettes. Not surprisingly, the cheap cigarettes are selling well, especially in Western New York.

Roswell Park found that in just two years, three Indian brands-Niagara, Seneca and Smokin’ Joes saw their market share in Western New York increase from seventh-tenths of one percent to nearly 21 percent. A person answering the phone at the makers of Niagara said the company is not Indian owned, although Indian online shops call Niagara an Indian brand and its address is listed on cigarette packs as Seneca Nation Territories in Irving.

Sales of Seneca cigarettes by Indian retailers have grown more than 200 percent from 2007 to 2008 in upstate New York, according to a confidential industry sales document. In all, Native American retailers sold 323,000 cartons - nearly 6.5 million cigarettes — of Seneca cigarettes last year, and that does not include the booming online trade. As an indicator of its popularity, Seneca sales far out-paced the 263,000 cartons of Marlboro cigarettes sold in the same region.

"They are huge and getting bigger and bigger," Frank Attea, a major Buffalo tobacco wholesaler to the Indians, said of the Indian-made cigarettes.

Just how big is unknown, though states have been trying to get those answers. They do know that Grand River, which produces Seneca and Opal cigarettes in a deal with Montour, saw cigarette sales go from 78 million in 1999 to 2.2 billion just five years later.

Grand River's principals - Jerry Montour, a member of the Wahta Mohawk tribe, and no relation to Arthur Montour, and Kenneth Hill, a member of the Lower Mohawk tribe - did not return phone calls. Nor did a South Carolina firm, Tobaccoville USA, also involved in the business.

Some industry executives believe the Seneca brand alone could push 10 billion cigarettes a year in volume.

Given its explosive growth and aggressive marketing, much of the focus around the country has been on the Seneca brand.
Montour, a former Seneca Tribal Council member, owns the Seneca trademark through his company, which was incorporated in 2001 with the Sac and Fox Nation in Oklahoma.

Seneca Nation President Barry E. Snyder Sr. said the Seneca Nation has no connection to the Seneca brand cigarettes.
"These cigarettes are manufactured in Ontario, not on our territories. The Nation is in no way responsible for them or their contents," he said in a statement.

After the cigarettes are made at that plant in Ontario, they are shipped to three sites: foreign trade zones in Lackawanna and Las Vegas, and a warehouse on the Cattaraugus reservation, court papers show.

From there, they go to any number of outlets on Indian reservations around the nation, where they are sold at casinos and smoke shops and online. In 2007, the Las Vegas facility handled 700 million cigarettes from the Grand River and Montour operation, one state investigator said.

The Seneca brand is licensed in both Canada and the United States, and cigarettes enter the country legally, having paid federal taxes, said Jeffrey Cohen, associate chief counsel at the Northeast office of the U. S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives. After that, however, when distributors down the line begin selling them tax-free around the country and on the Interet, things change.

"At that point it becomes diverted to potentially illegal channels," Cohen said.

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#991030 --- 03/08/09 07:30 PM Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case *DELETED* [Re: Rich_Tallcot]
justaxme Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/31/05
Posts: 2351
Loc: On top?
They forget to mention that cigarettes make you stink and look 20 years older than you are. Disgusting habit. I know, I did it. So glad I quit (12 years ago). So can we sue the indians like we did the other tobacco companies?


Edited by justaxme (03/08/09 07:32 PM)
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#991216 --- 03/09/09 07:03 AM Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case *DELETED* [Re: justaxme]
pixie Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/24/07
Posts: 1912
Loc: Romulus
I talked to a guy who worked at the canadian smokes plant for senica and he said there are very few employees, the bails come in and the plant automaticaly makes and packs the smokes in box's no people, only to fix the machines and load the trucks. And yes you can sue them. The whole world would be better off with out the cancer sticks.
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#991493 --- 03/09/09 08:22 PM Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case *DELETED* [Re: pixie]
justaxme Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/31/05
Posts: 2351
Loc: On top?
Was there another court appearance today ?
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#992017 --- 03/10/09 01:11 PM Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case *DELETED* [Re: pixie]
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32556
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: pixie
I talked to a guy who worked at the canadian smokes plant for senica and he said there are very few employees, the bails come in and the plant automaticaly makes and packs the smokes in box's no people, only to fix the machines and load the trucks. And yes you can sue them. The whole world would be better off with out the cancer sticks.



But the tribes claim people will be out of work if they cannot sell their illegal cigarettes?


.
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#992020 --- 03/10/09 01:12 PM Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case *DELETED* [Re: Rich_Tallcot]
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32556
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
* Prompted 30 states to sue, claiming the cigarettes are being sold illegally.

* Led the federal government, in January, to file a $21 million judgment against the owner of the Seneca brand for failure to pay a federal manufacturers' fee - and led to a bitter legal challenge over whether sales comply with the North American Free Trade Agreement.



Will the Federal government take further steps?


.
_________________________
"OUR COUNTRY IS IN MOURNING, A SOLDIER DIED TODAY."

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#992330 --- 03/10/09 11:04 PM Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case *DELETED* [Re: justaxme]
Rich_Tallcot Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/19/03
Posts: 5565
Loc: Greeneville, TN
Originally Posted By: justaxme
Was there another court appearance today ?
I think the next appearance in the Cayuga case is April 3rd.

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#992333 --- 03/10/09 11:06 PM Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case *DELETED* [Re: bluezone]
Rich_Tallcot Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/19/03
Posts: 5565
Loc: Greeneville, TN
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
* Prompted 30 states to sue, claiming the cigarettes are being sold illegally.

* Led the federal government, in January, to file a $21 million judgment against the owner of the Seneca brand for failure to pay a federal manufacturers' fee - and led to a bitter legal challenge over whether sales comply with the North American Free Trade Agreement.


Will the Federal government take further steps?
.
The lawsuit was filed two months ago, so I'm sure they are taking further steps.

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#993234 --- 03/12/09 03:18 PM Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case *DELETED* [Re: Rich_Tallcot]
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32556
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
Originally Posted By: justaxme
Was there another court appearance today ?
I think the next appearance in the Cayuga case is April 3rd.


The tribe could not wait another month.
The tribe sure enjoyed violating the laws for many years.
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"OUR COUNTRY IS IN MOURNING, A SOLDIER DIED TODAY."

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#1001243 --- 03/30/09 07:43 AM Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case [Re: reilley]
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32556
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: reilley
sworldt, save your fingers ... they are like arguing with a 3 year old. They will never make sense,cause they have no common sense.



is that why the Supreme Court ruled AGAINST the tribes?

.
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#1001353 --- 03/30/09 12:25 PM Re: Decision Delayed in Indian Tax Case [Re: justaxme]
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32556
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: justaxme
Was there another court appearance today ?


When is a tribe not in court?
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