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#906135 --- 10/28/08 10:21 AM Building 12 on the Lakefront
hereagain Offline
Member

Registered: 05/16/08
Posts: 65
Loc: NY
I just read nostrings and saw this quote "While it is absolutely clear that the community has reject Building 12".

Is this the way everybody in Geneva really feels??

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#906140 --- 10/28/08 10:30 AM Re: Building 12 on the Lakefront [Re: hereagain]
metsno1 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/21/03
Posts: 738
Loc: Geneva
No, it's clearly not the way the everybody feels. There have been very solid points made on both sides of the argument.

But if you attended all of the input sessions, as I did, you'd recognize that it was very clearly the majority opinion.

I do think, however, that a smaller majority (but a majority nonetheless) of people would be willing to consider a smaller, revamped version of building 12-but not one that included residential space. That's just my sense from the meetings.

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#906146 --- 10/28/08 10:37 AM Re: Building 12 on the Lakefront [Re: metsno1]
TheHeavyHitter Offline
Member

Registered: 08/24/06
Posts: 209
Loc: Down on the corner
How about a strip club?? That would really increase the tax revenue, how do you think Jackie would feel about that?!?!

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#906227 --- 10/28/08 12:01 PM Re: Building 12 on the Lakefront [Re: TheHeavyHitter]
Taxpayer14456 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/23/06
Posts: 8109
Loc: Geneva
LOL!
_________________________
Maybe we should chug on over to mamby pamby land...

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#906228 --- 10/28/08 12:01 PM Re: Building 12 on the Lakefront [Re: TheHeavyHitter]
jojotaxpayer Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/04/08
Posts: 2500
Loc: Ontario County
Strip club, Yeah!

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#906286 --- 10/28/08 12:50 PM Re: Building 12 on the Lakefront [Re: jojotaxpayer]
TheHeavyHitter Offline
Member

Registered: 08/24/06
Posts: 209
Loc: Down on the corner
The Yays have it.

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#906369 --- 10/28/08 02:34 PM Re: Building 12 on the Lakefront [Re: TheHeavyHitter]
Qwill Pen Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/17/08
Posts: 821
Loc: New York
It was very clear to me at the meetings I attended that there was a majority of people who did not feel Geneva should sell its valuable lakefront property to developers and take away the great views. Most people were in favor of development and utilization of the property, perhaps in ways like gardens, sculpture areas, etc., just not selling it for condos and/or office space. Those who did seem to favor selling off this asset were mainly business owner people.

I do not believe Geneva should ever sell this property. And to put housing there would be a shame, with all the pollution (noise, sight and physical) that such things as condos bring. They are taxed different until tax law than other residential property and would not make the tax base increase the way developers would like us to believe. I think these Bergmann Associates developers are suspect as to motive and they should never have been hired to begin with.

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#906379 --- 10/28/08 02:39 PM Re: Building 12 on the Lakefront [Re: metsno1]
Genevan Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 1914
Loc: Geneva
a smaller majority (but a majority nonetheless)

[majority < majority = minority]

Did you mean a majority of the minority?

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#906518 --- 10/28/08 04:55 PM Re: Building 12 on the Lakefront [Re: Genevan]
metsno1 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/21/03
Posts: 738
Loc: Geneva
Originally Posted By: Genevan
a smaller majority (but a majority nonetheless)

[majority < majority = minority]

Did you mean a majority of the minority?


Sorry, but your logic is incorrect.

I'll illustrate (and I'll just use fictional numbers to make the point clear as mud).

If there were 50 people who voiced their opinions, approximately 35 of them voiced an opinion against building 12 as it was presented. However, approximately 30 of those people also suggested that they might be willing to consider a smaller structure.

30 < 35 = majority (still) (Get it? 30 is still a majority out of 50).

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#906531 --- 10/28/08 05:22 PM Re: Building 12 on the Lakefront [Re: metsno1]
Genevan Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 1914
Loc: Geneva
I would agree, the perceived majority is not necessarily expressing an all or nothing approach.

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#906676 --- 10/28/08 07:32 PM Re: Building 12 on the Lakefront [Re: Qwill Pen]
DJ c Offline
Member

Registered: 12/10/07
Posts: 196
Loc: Here and There
Who are the majority that don't want the land to be sold and developed because of the views. What views are you actually talking about. The view obstructed by the trees or the view that you can only see when you are a passenger in a car going 45mph. Give me a break. The views won't be obstructed when you get off your lazy butt and walk, bike, jog or rollerblade by the lake. The same people who don't want their views obstructed are the same IDIOTS who want to save the gas station. This city has many vantage points for views of Seneca Lake, the obstructed view issue is a very, very weak CON for development. I would fully support the idea of a strip club. There wouldn't be any obstructed views there.

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#906726 --- 10/28/08 07:54 PM Re: Building 12 on the Lakefront [Re: DJ c]
metsno1 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/21/03
Posts: 738
Loc: Geneva
You can question whether or not the people speaking up at public forums constitute a majority all you want. But that doesn't change the fact that the majority of the people (or as you refer to them, idiots) who are expressing themselves in places other than this anonymous forum seem to be coming out against large scale development in that particular location. It's the only real objective evidence we have of how the general public feels.

Maybe you're correct that the true majority is in favor of development and doesn't care about obstructed views.

Come up with some evidence to counter what we already have.

Or just organize really effectively and make sure that it's the majority opinion expressed at the next input session.

That should be easy, right?


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#906744 --- 10/28/08 08:02 PM Re: Building 12 on the Lakefront [Re: metsno1]
mackey Offline
Member

Registered: 08/25/08
Posts: 137
Loc: geneva
Guess what, they will be talking about this 25 years from now. Nothing will never be done.

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#907012 --- 10/29/08 08:56 AM Re: Building 12 on the Lakefront [Re: mackey]
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32556
Loc: USA
Infill the lake area between the pier and leading towards the shore near the 5/20 bridge leading to hamilton street. Construct building 12 there as it will not obstruct the lake view.
_________________________
"OUR COUNTRY IS IN MOURNING, A SOLDIER DIED TODAY."

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#907040 --- 10/29/08 09:15 AM Re: Building 12 on the Lakefront [Re: bluezone]
Genevan Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 1914
Loc: Geneva
Right, if positioned directly below the 5/20 deck it could solve several problems at once. It would lend structural support to the deck and defer future maintenance saving tax dollars. A sky off-ramp could be built in that could direct traffic right off the bridge and into a parking garage facing the hill. It would join the town to the water and solve the pedestrian hazard because folks could go to the water by walking under the bridge and through the big Mcbox. We could call it the "bridge to somewhere." Seriously, what ever happened to the Hobart Marina plan...that was innovative...

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#907073 --- 10/29/08 10:22 AM Re: Building 12 on the Lakefront [Re: Genevan]
metsno1 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/21/03
Posts: 738
Loc: Geneva
Originally Posted By: Genevan
Right, if positioned directly below the 5/20 deck it could solve several problems at once. It would lend structural support to the deck and defer future maintenance saving tax dollars. A sky off-ramp could be built in that could direct traffic right off the bridge and into a parking garage facing the hill. It would join the town to the water and solve the pedestrian hazard because folks could go to the water by walking under the bridge and through the big Mcbox. We could call it the "bridge to somewhere." Seriously, what ever happened to the Hobart Marina plan...that was innovative...


While I don't think that marina plan was studied in detail, my understanding is that the estimated cost was enormous-supposedly dwarfing the current proposal in terms of dollars.

But I agree that it was innovative, and pretty cool if you had a chance to look at Stan's drawings.

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#907220 --- 10/29/08 01:32 PM Re: Building 12 on the Lakefront [Re: metsno1]
Miatasportscar Offline
Member

Registered: 12/04/05
Posts: 52
Loc: Geneva, NY
There is something about "natural beauty" that can't have a price put on it. Leave the lake front alone, it isn't worth all the money in the world to spoil it's "natural beauty". As for building "12", it is insane to build it where it is proposed to be built. Put condo's out on some farm property somewhere, leave the lake front alone. I want to see it each day when I walk my five miles along the seawall, and I want to see it from any angle from my car window. I want to see every square inch of the natural beauty of this marvelous, rare piece of land. Leave it alone, build your building "12" somewhere else far, far away.


Edited by FL1 Mod 2 (10/29/08 03:37 PM)

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#907234 --- 10/29/08 02:07 PM Re: Building 12 on the Lakefront [Re: Miatasportscar]
hummm Offline
Member

Registered: 10/05/07
Posts: 235
Loc: new york
I couldn't agree more! Well said! What a rare natural beauty this undeveloped lakefront is for us to visit and enjoy. Do as little as possible to it and certainly don't put up that huge building 12. Enhance the wildness of the lake to attract even more wildlife--including tourists! \:\)

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#907242 --- 10/29/08 02:24 PM Re: Building 12 on the Lakefront [Re: hummm]
TheHeavyHitter Offline
Member

Registered: 08/24/06
Posts: 209
Loc: Down on the corner
Let's save the gas station too!

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#907247 --- 10/29/08 02:36 PM Re: Building 12 on the Lakefront [Re: hereagain]
Wally Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 03/15/07
Posts: 19
Loc: Ontario County
Don't worry, we aren't all nuts. There are a lot of people who have true vision and realize what putting a building on that site would do for Geneva. We become a true lakefront city. The proposed building will be utilized by the public and tourists alike. Visit any waterfront city where they have utilized their asset and you will find a very successful city. Unfortunately we have a small vocal minority here that have never traveled and seen this (or simply don't understand it). Until we can get tourists to come stay here and spend their vacation week with us, nothing will change, and people are not going to use their family vacations to come here and look at the lake from Castle Street (oh, by the way, that is how it is now and how's that working out for us?). People will come to stay because there are things here to DO here, and until we have a tourist trade that changes each week and goes out looking for things to do, places like the The Comedy Shop, McCool's and other high quality visitor based businesses are not going to survive. I am beginning to think that the whiners really don't want anyone else to come to Geneva. Why the other night I heard that one person actually said they didn't want the new proposed hotel for Elizabeth Blackwell St. because it would block their WHOLE view of the lake... from up on MAIN ST. Now that's progressive thinking for you! Let's not do anything so they can look out their windows. Good idea (keep em' coming folks). This city needs to increase it's property and sales tax bases, and anyone who can't see that is either short sited, or plain dumb. Let's face it, they got the committee to give them 95% of the lakefront left open, and now it is time for them to give something back... for God's sake stop whinning about the last 5%! We know that is your favorite thing to do, and some of you are starting to take it to a true art form, but don't worry, you still have the gas station to play with. Oh, by the way, how much more money do you want the city to spend on it?

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#907286 --- 10/29/08 03:33 PM Re: Building 12 on the Lakefront [Re: Wally]
hummm Offline
Member

Registered: 10/05/07
Posts: 235
Loc: new york
How about getting rid of the gas station and putting building 12 there. \:\) And developing the lakefront to attract ecotourists!!!

With hotels, maybe small "botique" hotels in some of the vacant buildings, etc. in downtown and the lakefront virtually under-developed and enhanced to attract more wildlife. Wintertime is great for ecotourists here with all the ducks flocking throughout those dark dreary months, but it must be supported with a vital downtown. and summer with walkways for hiking, docks, etc. also needs a vibrant downtown. think about developing downtown and stop trying to do what everyone else is doing around us. let's bust out and try something new and green. That lakefront is just too beautiful to trash-up with developments that profit a few. try something different that will benefit all of Geneva.

(Note: At present, downtown has quite a few "antique" or "thrift" shops. People go from one to the other. This theme might be developed. It does presently attract a lot of people. Just ask the folks in The Second Hand Shop, or the shops on Exchange Street.)

Here is ecotourism from Wikipedia:

"According to the definition and principles of ecotourism established by The International Ecotourism Society (TIES) in 1990, ecotourism is "Responsible travel to natural areas that conserves the environment and improves the well-being of local people." (TIES, 1990). Those who implement and participate in ecotourism activities should follow the following ecotourism principles:

minimize impact
build environmental and cultural awareness and respect
provide positive experiences for both visitors and hosts
provide financial benefits and empowerment for local people."

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#907300 --- 10/29/08 03:57 PM Re: Building 12 on the Lakefront [Re: hummm]
VIKING33NY Offline
Member

Registered: 02/09/05
Posts: 88
I think Jackie's problem is that she keeps trying to keep Geneva's interest at heart. Shame on you Jackie!

If you take the time to listen to what she says and why she (Jackie says it, you'll understand) most people won't or don't.

She has a very decent point of view about Geneva..Personally I like her plan.

Jackie, Keep up the good work!

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#907405 --- 10/29/08 04:57 PM Re: Building 12 on the Lakefront [Re: Qwill Pen]
Taxpayer14456 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/23/06
Posts: 8109
Loc: Geneva
Originally Posted By: caseyseneca
They are taxed different until tax law than other residential property and would not make the tax base increase the way developers would like us to believe.



These will not be condos like you see near the lake in Canandaigua.

Call them what you like but anyways you will have residential space on the top floor of a commercial building. The entire building will assessed accordingly and there will not be a seperate assessment between the commercial part and the residential part.

I got a flyer stuck to my front door awhile back that said condos are assessed differently. It was an apparent attempt to mislead people.

Residential units on top of commercial buildings...sound familiar? Sounds like buildings we already have downtown. There is no assessment difference between the commercial part of the building and the residential part.
_________________________
Maybe we should chug on over to mamby pamby land...

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#907422 --- 10/29/08 05:12 PM Re: Building 12 on the Lakefront [Re: Taxpayer14456]
Taxpayer14456 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/23/06
Posts: 8109
Loc: Geneva
Back in the 80's the 5&20 highway was moved in order to make way for lakefront development. I do believe us taxpayers are still to this day paying on that debt.

In those presented plans the lakefront development is minor. It's a small space between the Ramada and the Chamber with the rest of it being left open.

A long time city resident told me that lakefront development talks have been going on for 40 YEARS. 40 YEARS!

Council can't seem to make a decision on an old run down gas station. The old Cookery block was sold, the buyer was going to demolish it and then what...the city gave the guy his money back and now its been torn down. I am guessing it was a cost to us taxpayers.

So does anyone really think the city can get any type of this development going? I don't. I don't think I will see it in my lifetime.

And for you people who are so bent on seeing the lake as you drive by...don't worry. It will be like the way it is now for many more years. Empty and the burden will continue to be on the taxpayers.
_________________________
Maybe we should chug on over to mamby pamby land...

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#907516 --- 10/29/08 06:32 PM Re: Building 12 on the Lakefront [Re: Taxpayer14456]
metsno1 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/21/03
Posts: 738
Loc: Geneva
Originally Posted By: Taxpayer14456
Originally Posted By: caseyseneca
They are taxed different until tax law than other residential property and would not make the tax base increase the way developers would like us to believe.



These will not be condos like you see near the lake in Canandaigua.

Call them what you like but anyways you will have residential space on the top floor of a commercial building. The entire building will assessed accordingly and there will not be a seperate assessment between the commercial part and the residential part.

I got a flyer stuck to my front door awhile back that said condos are assessed differently. It was an apparent attempt to mislead people.

Residential units on top of commercial buildings...sound familiar? Sounds like buildings we already have downtown. There is no assessment difference between the commercial part of the building and the residential part.


The difference is that the residential units downtown are not privately owned, but rather rented. Those buildings constitute single taxable entities. My understanding is that the condos would be individually owned by their occupants, making them taxable on a separate basis.

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#907535 --- 10/29/08 06:50 PM Re: Building 12 on the Lakefront [Re: hummm]
hummm Offline
Member

Registered: 10/05/07
Posts: 235
Loc: new york
Further to my post on eco-tourism, there is agri-tourism where people come to rural areas to experience farm life. it is conceivable people might come to Geneva, stay in the city, and be driven (either van, car or buggy) to the farms for a few hours to enjoy farm life. Then taken to a restaurant that serves good country food, or any restaurant, or vineyard, of their choice. Similar to what is offered by the Amish in Pennsylvania, etc. only scaled to Geneva which has much more to offer because of the lake and the historic elements.

Along with the farm experience, the nature experience (eco-) would include a trip around, along, or on our beautiful lake to view the wildlife (no, not the bar crowd). Guides would point out subjects of interest on the lake. Along with this would be a historic tour of our area. We do have many historic buildings and this would tie the Geneva experience together.

We have much to offer eco- and agri- tourists if you think about it and it preserves and develops this area in a way that is good for all. Building big buildings and condos on the lake is old stuff, most tourists have been there, done that over and over again.

The world is changing. Food is being grown locally again. Community is being re-discovered. We are surrounded by large cities with many families who long to experience the outdoors. And wow! does Geneva have outdoors!!! And an exciting history, and vineyards, and farms, and if we develop the downtown antique shop theme, and discover some other themes, it spells a wonderful summer or winter trip with the family. This sounds much better to me than looking at a developed or over-developed lakefront and lots of bars to accommodate bored tourists.

This would be my dream. Just a dream, I fear...

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#907590 --- 10/29/08 08:09 PM Re: Building 12 on the Lakefront [Re: hummm]
mackey Offline
Member

Registered: 08/25/08
Posts: 137
Loc: geneva
Hate to say it but Hummm has a point with the old gas station. Maybe this will please everyone.

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#907624 --- 10/29/08 08:39 PM Re: Building 12 on the Lakefront [Re: metsno1]
Taxpayer14456 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/23/06
Posts: 8109
Loc: Geneva
Originally Posted By: metsno1
The difference is that the residential units downtown are not privately owned, but rather rented. Those buildings constitute single taxable entities. My understanding is that the condos would be individually owned by their occupants, making them taxable on a separate basis.



If that's the case then it's a win-win for the city. The building itself will have an assessed value for taxes and the condos, so to speak, will also be taxed. If that's the plan then I am more for it now then I was before.
_________________________
Maybe we should chug on over to mamby pamby land...

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#907884 --- 10/30/08 07:25 AM Re: Building 12 on the Lakefront [Re: Taxpayer14456]
Genevan Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 1914
Loc: Geneva
Wow, suddenly Taxpayer14456 supports more taxes...imagine that...

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#907956 --- 10/30/08 09:20 AM Re: Building 12 on the Lakefront [Re: mackey]
Geneva_grl Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/20/05
Posts: 1313
Loc: G-Town
Here's an idea: Put Building 12 where the eyesore gas station is. It will make everyone happy. They will have their Building 12 and save the gas station (sort of).

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#907973 --- 10/30/08 09:29 AM Re: Building 12 on the Lakefront [Re: Genevan]
Taxpayer14456 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/23/06
Posts: 8109
Loc: Geneva
It's more development and a greater tax base I support. That helps everyone.

I am also support forward thinking. Forward thinking has done wonders for places like Canandaigua and Victor.

It's too bad the negative thinking and the live in the past mentality is what shapes Geneva.
_________________________
Maybe we should chug on over to mamby pamby land...

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#908078 --- 10/30/08 11:53 AM Re: Building 12 on the Lakefront [Re: Taxpayer14456]
TLC127 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 02/24/04
Posts: 540
I do not believe Canandaigua has it right either. The whole lakeshore has been bought up by Geneco. There are a lot of the property he hasn't done anything with since his purchase. The Lincoln Hill Inn is a good example.

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#908090 --- 10/30/08 12:05 PM Re: Building 12 on the Lakefront [Re: TLC127]
Taxpayer14456 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/23/06
Posts: 8109
Loc: Geneva
Canandaigua development is slated around the park/green space. Much like it would be here in Geneva if people had some positive forward thinking.

Ever see those old homes along Gibson Street? They are fabulous. The positive forward thinking energy is reflected in the way those homes are kept up and maintained.

What does Geneva have? Older historic homes owned by the colleges and off the tax rolls and older historic homes converted into welfare apartments. Negative backwards thinking is reflected in Geneva.
_________________________
Maybe we should chug on over to mamby pamby land...

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#908128 --- 10/30/08 01:35 PM Re: Building 12 on the Lakefront [Re: Taxpayer14456]
hereagain Offline
Member

Registered: 05/16/08
Posts: 65
Loc: NY
You are so right Taxpayer. We need to have positive thinkers. The Building 12 plan may not be exactly what is needed but something needs to be done. Too many naysayers will just leave all the plans sitting on the shelf for another 40 years and what will we have - NOTHING AGAIN!!!

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#908278 --- 10/30/08 05:07 PM Re: Building 12 on the Lakefront [Re: Wally]
Miatasportscar Offline
Member

Registered: 12/04/05
Posts: 52
Loc: Geneva, NY
Wally:
Yes, I have traveled, and I'll bet I've been (and stayed) in more lake front cities than you have. I watched the Inner Harbor go up in Baltimore, and I've seen cities where all the lake front had at the focal point of access is grass and beauty. Like I said and you can't see this. There's more than money to think of here. You do NOT destroy natural beauty for dollars. Why? Because there aren't enough dollars in the world to replace the natural beauty of things, such as our lake front. Putting a five story building there is insane, no matter what you or anyone else says. The first impression people (tourists) driving by have is one of natural beauty, unspoiled, and huge. They will stop if you have something for them to stop for, and they will spend money here.The already are spending money here due to the various wine trail attraction. Geneva is a focal point that many times have attracted them to the Finger Lakes in the first place. Advertise the region and it's benefits to tourists. That five story piece of crap at the very spot where a majority of us do not want it is absolutely not needed there. Put it elsewhere. Worried about increasing the tax base? Build things on Exchange Street and other locations, away from the lake front and the view.
As for the gas station, Geneva spent approximately $20,000 to let someone else tell them what the human eye can readily see. The place is tumbling down and needs to be demolished. Spend $20,000 to have someone tell you what any keen eye knows? Ridiculous. Foolish money spent, could have anyone with good eyesight tell this tale....$20,000 worth? Not hardly. Wasted money in an economy where money is king.
Leave the lake front alone, clean it up, keep it attractive, put things in the city for tourists to enjoy, build a better lake front marina complex, sit back and the tourists will come.
I live here and have paid taxes for over 40 years, and I like the lake front for what it is, natural beauty. Anything else is not needed at any cost. You cannot replace natural beauty at any cost, natural beauty only occurs once, then gone forever. Wake up!!!!!


Edited by Miatasportscar (10/30/08 05:12 PM)

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#908402 --- 10/30/08 07:51 PM Re: Building 12 on the Lakefront [Re: Miatasportscar]
hereagain Offline
Member

Registered: 05/16/08
Posts: 65
Loc: NY
Good point on the gas station! It's too bad that there are those still on council that listen to the very, very small voal minority on this. Wasn't there some vote a while back to take that eyesore down? Why is it still there? Now the same people say the lakefront process is a sham. My goodnees nothing has been voted on yet!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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#908887 --- 10/31/08 09:29 AM Re: Building 12 on the Lakefront [Re: Miatasportscar]
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32556
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Miatasportscar
... I live here and have paid taxes for over 40 years...


Do you live in the town or the city?



.
_________________________
"OUR COUNTRY IS IN MOURNING, A SOLDIER DIED TODAY."

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#908922 --- 10/31/08 10:19 AM Re: Building 12 on the Lakefront [Re: Taxpayer14456]
tubby Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/12/08
Posts: 1341
Loc: N.Y.
What does the fact that a few rich home owners taking care of their properties have to do with forward thinking ? If true I think the beautifully kept row houses in Geneva blow away Gibson St.

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#908939 --- 10/31/08 10:43 AM Re: Building 12 on the Lakefront [Re: tubby]
Miatasportscar Offline
Member

Registered: 12/04/05
Posts: 52
Loc: Geneva, NY
Bluezone:
I live in the town, and I STILL can voice my opinion. As can someone from another state or country can. Opinions are what it takes to save this valuable natural treasure. Everyone no matter WHERE he/she lives can comment, and should. To alter natural beauty for a few extra dollars is insane in my opinion, but the Geneva council will have the final say, along with the very few who will show up for meetings.
Lastly, I owned and paid taxes on a piece of Geneva city property for many years as well, if that answers your question.
Let's SAVE THE LAKE FRONT!!!!!!!!!!

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#908947 --- 10/31/08 10:52 AM Re: Building 12 on the Lakefront [Re: Genevan]
VIKING33NY Offline
Member

Registered: 02/09/05
Posts: 88
building 12...what's it gonna do for Geneva? Tax wise? Nothing!!

That's what our City Council is worried about!!!

Good for them!!

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#908972 --- 10/31/08 11:36 AM Re: Building 12 on the Lakefront [Re: Miatasportscar]
Taxpayer14456 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/23/06
Posts: 8109
Loc: Geneva
Originally Posted By: Miatasportscar
Let's SAVE THE LAKE FRONT!!!!!!!!!!



The lakefront is being saved. A small parcel between the Chamber and the Ramada isn't going to ruin the lakefront.
_________________________
Maybe we should chug on over to mamby pamby land...

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#908974 --- 10/31/08 11:38 AM Re: Building 12 on the Lakefront [Re: tubby]
Taxpayer14456 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/23/06
Posts: 8109
Loc: Geneva
Originally Posted By: tubby
What does the fact that a few rich home owners taking care of their properties have to do with forward thinking ? If true I think the beautifully kept row houses in Geneva blow away Gibson St.



That's assuming they are rich. I don't know if they are or not. If your community is positive then it's people are positive.
_________________________
Maybe we should chug on over to mamby pamby land...

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#909041 --- 10/31/08 02:49 PM Re: Building 12 on the Lakefront [Re: Taxpayer14456]
hummm Offline
Member

Registered: 10/05/07
Posts: 235
Loc: new york
WHERE ARE THE PETITIONS THAT ARE BEING TALKED ABOUT? I'D LIKE TO SIGN ON. IN STORES? BARS? THANKS!

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#909057 --- 10/31/08 03:16 PM Re: Building 12 on the Lakefront [Re: hummm]
BuckCompton Offline
Member

Registered: 07/09/07
Posts: 128
Loc: New York
DON'T NEED TO YELL!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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#909117 --- 10/31/08 06:11 PM Re: Building 12 on the Lakefront [Re: bluezone]
mackey Offline
Member

Registered: 08/25/08
Posts: 137
Loc: geneva
I live in the city and the old gas station is in my district. As far with the minor of people that want the gas station do not live in the 5th ward. I for one have not heard any thing from my city counselman.

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#909422 --- 11/01/08 09:31 AM Re: Building 12 on the Lakefront [Re: Miatasportscar]
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32556
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Miatasportscar
Bluezone:
I live in the town,

To alter natural beauty for a few extra dollars is insane in my opinion,


Does the town of Geneva have 60 acres of lakefront for public use?



.
_________________________
"OUR COUNTRY IS IN MOURNING, A SOLDIER DIED TODAY."

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#909451 --- 11/01/08 10:13 AM Re: Building 12 on the Lakefront [Re: bluezone]
Miatasportscar Offline
Member

Registered: 12/04/05
Posts: 52
Loc: Geneva, NY
What's that got to do with "spoiling natural beauty"? Wake up, preserving natural beauty only can occur once. That's my point, and that's what should be considered. You can be sure if the Town of Geneva DID have 60 acres of lake front, it would be "natural beauty" and preserved in that regard.
The town has nothing to do with this decision, but opinions should come from everywhere to preserve something as treasured as this parcel. Wake up, there isn't enough money on the planet to spoil the lake front with commercial enterprise. Don't you get it? My views are my own, and yes I live in Town of Geneva. It shouldn't bother anyone if someone from overseas viewed his opinion, let alone views from town folks, this is America, not some other country. Anyone's views should be heard and tossed into the pile. You're talking about developing a piece of property that will no longer be in a natural state. I like to hear views from everyone on any subject, particularly this one which can change the lake front dramatically.
This is how you learn things, by listening. Post your views, let everyone see them, and with enough input the job will be done properly. With money federal, state, county, city in short supply, this will also have a factor on this. Whatever is done, my view is simple, don't spoil the natural beauty with a building hiding views from ANYONE!

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#909625 --- 11/01/08 04:58 PM Re: Building 12 on the Lakefront [Re: Miatasportscar]
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32556
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Miatasportscar
... You can be sure if the Town of Geneva DID have 60 acres of lake front, it would be "natural beauty" and preserved in that regard.


Is not Lochland road/Route 14 along the lake in the town of Geneva and represents about 7 miles of waterfront?

Why did you move from the city of Geneva to the town of Geneva?

.
_________________________
"OUR COUNTRY IS IN MOURNING, A SOLDIER DIED TODAY."

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#909690 --- 11/01/08 07:12 PM Re: Building 12 on the Lakefront [Re: bluezone]
Miatasportscar Offline
Member

Registered: 12/04/05
Posts: 52
Loc: Geneva, NY
I don't think it's any of your business why I moved here...but I will say this: "I LOVE IT!!!!Especially because of the natural beauty that surrounds me." Again, it's none of your business why I moved here. Stick to building "12" issues.....

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#909742 --- 11/01/08 09:06 PM Re: Building 12 on the Lakefront [Re: Miatasportscar]
Taxpayer14456 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/23/06
Posts: 8109
Loc: Geneva
One building between the Ramada and the Chamber is hardly spoiling the natural beauty of the area.
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Maybe we should chug on over to mamby pamby land...

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#909760 --- 11/01/08 09:36 PM Re: Building 12 on the Lakefront [Re: Taxpayer14456]
hummm Offline
Member

Registered: 10/05/07
Posts: 235
Loc: new york
HEY TAXPAYER, ONE BUILDING WILL DESTROY THE NATURE BEAUTY OF THE LAKE. ESPECIALLY A BLDG LIKE #12. ALSO, WHAT ABOUT ALL THE WASTE THAT WILL BE EMPTYING INTO THE LAKE?

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#909769 --- 11/01/08 09:56 PM Re: Building 12 on the Lakefront [Re: hummm]
Taxpayer14456 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/23/06
Posts: 8109
Loc: Geneva
Originally Posted By: hummm
HEY TAXPAYER, ONE BUILDING WILL DESTROY THE NATURE BEAUTY OF THE LAKE. ESPECIALLY A BLDG LIKE #12. ALSO, WHAT ABOUT ALL THE WASTE THAT WILL BE EMPTYING INTO THE LAKE?



LOL!

Oh golly I just naturally thought this new building would have a sewer system. Who da thunk the sewer would flow directly into the lake.
_________________________
Maybe we should chug on over to mamby pamby land...

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#909789 --- 11/01/08 10:40 PM Re: Building 12 on the Lakefront [Re: Taxpayer14456]
hummm Offline
Member

Registered: 10/05/07
Posts: 235
Loc: new york
AND WHERE WILL IT GO TAXPAYER? PLEASE EXPLAIN THE GENEVA SEWER SYSTEM TO ME.

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#909919 --- 11/02/08 07:23 AM Re: Building 12 on the Lakefront [Re: Taxpayer14456]
jojotaxpayer Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/04/08
Posts: 2500
Loc: Ontario County
Originally Posted By: Taxpayer14456
One building between the Ramada and the Chamber is hardly spoiling the natural beauty of the area.


It's certainly not contributing to it either numb-nuts. Step away from the computer once in a while and enjoy it.

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#909938 --- 11/02/08 07:53 AM Re: Building 12 on the Lakefront [Re: hummm]
Qwill Pen Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/17/08
Posts: 821
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: hummm
WHERE ARE THE PETITIONS THAT ARE BEING TALKED ABOUT? I'D LIKE TO SIGN ON. IN STORES? BARS? THANKS!


You can sign a petition at the Public Library in Geneva.

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#909949 --- 11/02/08 08:05 AM Re: Building 12 on the Lakefront [Re: Qwill Pen]
Qwill Pen Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/17/08
Posts: 821
Loc: New York
I have to agree with Hummmm. It is very shortsighted not to consider the pollution that comes with office buildings and condos. I am talking about the obvious - air pollution (increased traffic), sight pollution (views of parking lots and dumpsters instead of lakeviews), noise pollution- traffic, deliveries etc.

In addition, I don't see Geneva City or any other government entity "owning" that area of land. They may consider they own the ground - but the beautiful lakeview is not owned by anyone and no matter where you live - even if you come once a year to visit - the natural beauty of the area belongs to every person from every where and not just a group of officials who come and go in office.

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#909950 --- 11/02/08 08:07 AM Re: Building 12 on the Lakefront [Re: hummm]
Taxpayer14456 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/23/06
Posts: 8109
Loc: Geneva
Originally Posted By: hummm
AND WHERE WILL IT GO TAXPAYER? PLEASE EXPLAIN THE GENEVA SEWER SYSTEM TO ME.




LOOK IT UP YOURSELF.
_________________________
Maybe we should chug on over to mamby pamby land...

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#909951 --- 11/02/08 08:08 AM Re: Building 12 on the Lakefront [Re: jojotaxpayer]
Taxpayer14456 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/23/06
Posts: 8109
Loc: Geneva
Originally Posted By: jojotaxpayer
It's certainly not contributing to it either numb-nuts. Step away from the computer once in a while and enjoy it.



LOL! I don't care who you are, thats funny.
_________________________
Maybe we should chug on over to mamby pamby land...

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#909952 --- 11/02/08 08:11 AM Re: Building 12 on the Lakefront [Re: Qwill Pen]
Taxpayer14456 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/23/06
Posts: 8109
Loc: Geneva
Originally Posted By: caseyseneca
I have to agree with Hummmm. It is very shortsighted not to consider the pollution that comes with office buildings and condos. I am talking about the obvious - air pollution (increased traffic), sight pollution (views of parking lots and dumpsters instead of lakeviews), noise pollution- traffic, deliveries etc.



Yeah we wouldn't want increased traffic. Lets close down access to the lake so tourists don't increase their traffic and cause air pollution.

I don't see dumpsters now at the lakefront buildings. I am not at all bothered by the occassional delivery trucks at the Ramada.
_________________________
Maybe we should chug on over to mamby pamby land...

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#910015 --- 11/02/08 11:13 AM Re: Building 12 on the Lakefront [Re: Taxpayer14456]
Qwill Pen Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/17/08
Posts: 821
Loc: New York
I am not talking about the Ramada, Taxpayer, nor do I care what you as an individual are bothered or not bothered about about. I am talking about the future and those who inherit what we do - our children, grandchildren and beyond. You can be as sarcastic as you like, and you seem to love being sarcastic. teh fact remains that with offices and with living spaces comes additional stress on the environment and the surroundings. What is tolerable now with the Ramada would increase many fold with residential area and with office buildings.

Look to the future. That area is a great asset to this area as a whole. Let it remain for development in a green and pleasant environmentally friendly place, i.e., gardens, nature park, etc.

Condos can be built elsewhere and so can office buildings.

Taxpayer, I really would enjoy your posts if they were not always so sarcastic - no matter what anyone says - you seem to enjoy sarcasm. It would be pleasant to have a nice conversation and discussion without the sarcasm. I hope for your own sake, that once in a while you have a pleasant thought, or give a smile to someone.

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#910051 --- 11/02/08 12:41 PM Re: Building 12 on the Lakefront [Re: Miatasportscar]
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32556
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Miatasportscar
I don't think it's any of your business why I moved here...but I will say this: "I LOVE IT!!!!Especially because of the natural beauty that surrounds me." Again, it's none of your business why I moved here. Stick to building "12" issues.....


Then should it be your business if you do not live or pay taxes in the City of Geneva?

Could one reason be that you moved from the city to the town was lower taxes?

You do not mind paying lower town taxes but still having use of the "city" lake front. Odd?

Did you protest when the town of Geneva wanted to develop any of the land along "their" waterfront?

Why not let the city of Geneva develop all 60 acres and then have the town of Geneva buy back 60 acres of lakefront in the town for public use? ----Or would your taxes go up?

Did your supervisor "alter" the tax assessment of a town property from $10 million down to $6 million? ---the newspaper article stated that is the reason the previous tax assessor left.

The city of Geneva loses money by this "deflated" lower assessment.

The town of Geneva recently lost in court regarding paying the same water/sewer rates that city residents pay. How about the town reimburse the city for the last 30 years of "deflated" water/sewer rates so the city does not have to develop the lakefront? ----- or would your taxes go up?


I ran some numbers and found that the city loses around $2 million in taxes per year with this space being "natural" but yet the town residents have every inch of their waterfront developed and are happy to collect taxes for these developed town properties. This would equal about $1,400 more per house in the town per year. Would you be willing to pay $1,400 more per year to keep it "natural"?



Should the city charge non city residents a fee to use the lake front in order to keep this view undeveloped as they do in Canandaigua lakeshore park?

or set up "toll" booths along 5/20 and charge to experience the view in order to keep this "natural".
_________________________
"OUR COUNTRY IS IN MOURNING, A SOLDIER DIED TODAY."

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#910062 --- 11/02/08 01:12 PM Re: Building 12 on the Lakefront [Re: Qwill Pen]
Taxpayer14456 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/23/06
Posts: 8109
Loc: Geneva
Originally Posted By: caseyseneca
I am not talking about the Ramada, Taxpayer, nor do I care what you as an individual are bothered or not bothered about about.



Yes, you do care or we wouldn't be having these discussions.


Originally Posted By: caseyseneca
I am talking about the future and those who inherit what we do - our children, grandchildren and beyond.



I do care about what the future holds for my kids. My kids will inherit the house, it will be fully paid for and if they decide to stay in the city and New York they will hopefully be able to afford to do so with a much broader tax base.

Hopefully my kids won't be still paying the debt that has been accrued due to moving Routes 5&20 to make room for devlopment like we are still doing now.



Originally Posted By: caseyseneca
You can be as sarcastic as you like, and you seem to love being sarcastic.



Thank you and yes.


Originally Posted By: caseyseneca
teh fact remains that with offices and with living spaces comes additional stress on the environment and the surroundings. What is tolerable now with the Ramada would increase many fold with residential area and with office buildings.



Wouldn't the so called additional stress be created on the environment no matter where new development took place? The colleges aren't going to fully support this city the way they should so there isn't really alot of options.



Originally Posted By: caseyseneca
Look to the future. That area is a great asset to this area as a whole. Let it remain for development in a green and pleasant environmentally friendly place, i.e., gardens, nature park, etc.



I am looking towards the future. All but 5 acres will be preserved as a park, with an addition of a public beach/swimming area and marina. The walking/bicycling paths will still be maintained. We are not losing what we have now. What we have now will see a much needed enhancement of the area.



Originally Posted By: caseyseneca
I hope for your own sake, that once in a while you have a pleasant thought, or give a smile to someone.



Please, don't worry about my sake, worry about you. I am a pleasant and positive person. Who knows, maybe our paths have crossed and I did pass along a smile. But thank you for your concern.
_________________________
Maybe we should chug on over to mamby pamby land...

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#910108 --- 11/02/08 02:27 PM Re: Building 12 on the Lakefront [Re: bluezone]
Miatasportscar Offline
Member

Registered: 12/04/05
Posts: 52
Loc: Geneva, NY
Bluzone:
You do not know what property I own or did own both in Geneva and Town. As to why I moved here, like I said it's none of your business. Go to another subject.....stop ranting and raving, your question was "Why did you move here?" My answer is it is none of your business why I moved here.


Edited by Miatasportscar (11/02/08 02:30 PM)

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#910210 --- 11/02/08 04:10 PM Re: Building 12 on the Lakefront [Re: Miatasportscar]
SFisWonderful Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/30/08
Posts: 1928
Loc: NEW YORK
I say build it, the BIGGER the BETTER! Let the building be 60-70-80 stories high! Let the people from Watkins Glen see this monster. Every successful town or city incorporates their waterfront, not turn their back on it, as Geneva has done. As this beautiful building is being built, build a pedestrian overpass so that people can safely walk back and forth from the lake to the condos and other commercial buildings.

When the Ramada has live bands on fridays, the place is packed.

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#910570 --- 11/03/08 08:26 AM Re: Building 12 on the Lakefront [Re: Miatasportscar]
Wally Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 03/15/07
Posts: 19
Loc: Ontario County
Mia... you seem to have questioned my credentials so I thought a few points from my qualifications might help. I don't know who you are, but for you to say you have been or seen more waterfronts then me is probably foolish. Having traveled and worked in the field of oceanography for most of my life, I really doubt that is a valid point, so cross that one off your list. I have seen all sorts of waterfronts (good and bad). Your point of blocking the view and destroying Geneva's lakefront is ridiculous. You act as if the lake will disappear all together. The plan calls for 95% of the lake to be left wide open and that will still give Geneva one of, if not, the largest OPEN PUBLIC city waterfronts in New York State, if not the entire country. What is proposed is a way to utilized our best asset to the best advantage of Geneva, while at the same time having the lease amount of disruption to the lakefront. The area in front of the proposed building is still public (by law). If you took the time to even consider another point of view (I don't really expect that by the way), you might realize that even if the proposed building was built (and the final building won't be anywhere near that large), you still would have most of the lake view anyways because the majority of the view is over the Ramada parking lot or behind the other buildings on Exchange St. The city has had at least 3 major studies over the past 40 years on the lakefront that have ALL stated that connecting the city to the lake is critical to the growth of Geneva's tourist trade. People talk about those plans being a "waste of money", but they will only be a waste of money if we don't listen to what the EXPERTS say. These are the people who do this for a living say! For you to think that simply keeping things as they are and the city will begin to draw tourists is foolish (it's not working now). Let's stop being the "GATEWAY" to the Finger Lakes where people drive though and start being a DESTINATION where they come and stay.

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#910657 --- 11/03/08 10:22 AM Re: Building 12 on the Lakefront [Re: bluezone]
metsno1 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/21/03
Posts: 738
Loc: Geneva
Originally Posted By: bluezone

Should the city charge non city residents a fee to use the lake front



Absolutely 100% YES. But only with regard to a public beach. We should most definitely charge non-residents a fee, just as they do in Canandaigua.

IMO, all other areas of the lakefront should be open and free of charge.

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#910876 --- 11/03/08 01:31 PM Re: Building 12 on the Lakefront [Re: metsno1]
kimmer Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/26/07
Posts: 1403
Loc: here,there and back again
How will you charge someone a fee to use the lakefront if they come in from their boat? How about if they pay the state park fee, in Seneca Co, and walk along the bath to the "Geneva" lakefront? I'm not familiar with the charges in Canandaigua. Do you only enter the lakefront area from one place? Just curious.....
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Why is it so hard for some to properly use your and you're??

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#910943 --- 11/03/08 02:22 PM Re: Building 12 on the Lakefront [Re: kimmer]
metsno1 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/21/03
Posts: 738
Loc: Geneva
The beach I'm referring to in Canandaigua is only accessed via a single entrance, which consists of a small brick building that houses two locker areas (I believe with showers), and an office in the center, with a walk-through that you use to access the beach itself. It's a pretty attractive building, and they charge $3.00 or so for non-residents. The beach is staffed with lifeguards and is maintained by their Recreation department. There are (fairly attractive) fences on either side of the beach area that prevent the walk-ins.

I would propose the following fee schedule for admission:

City Residents (with city issued ID)-Free

Non-Residents- $3.00 per person (maybe with a family Max of $10)

Town of Geneva Residents- $18.00 Each.

\:\) \:\) \:\)

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#910970 --- 11/03/08 03:18 PM Re: Building 12 on the Lakefront [Re: metsno1]
kimmer Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/26/07
Posts: 1403
Loc: here,there and back again
ok, thanks. It seems fair enough to charge non-residents. Would the city issued ID cost anything?

Off topic a little, but does anyone else think the picture in the google ad "who's more likely to cheat: mccain or obama?" look funny. Michelle looks she's scolding Barack, like don't you dare cheat or I'll whoop your butt and Cindy is saying Did you do it again??? Well, did you?
_________________________
Why is it so hard for some to properly use your and you're??

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#911047 --- 11/03/08 04:36 PM Re: Building 12 on the Lakefront [Re: kimmer]
Redbutch Offline
Member

Registered: 02/27/08
Posts: 119
Loc: Geneva
Canandaigua charges residents $1.00 for a laminated photo ID that they can use the whole summer. One-time fee.

Charging the town residents...love it! I had to laugh out loud!

I think that the proposed development on the lakefront is essential to building Geneva as the destination it deserves to be. I went to college here 14 years ago and just recently moved back because of everything Geneva currently has to offer. Imagine the possibilities if we have more! And I wouldn't mind having a big building on the lakefront...anything that distracts the eye from the Ramada's parking lot. I just hope they incorporate a dog beach...my kids would be so happy!
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Protect our lakes!

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#911133 --- 11/03/08 05:14 PM Re: Building 12 on the Lakefront [Re: Miatasportscar]
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32556
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Miatasportscar
Bluzone:
You do not know what property I own or did own both in Geneva and Town.


Checked the county records and it shows you only have one property in the town.

is the 2nd number of your house a -- 1?
is the 2nd letter of the road you live on a -- U?
is the 2nd number of your recently paid tax bill a -- 9?
is the 2nd letter of your first name an -- E?

\:\) \:o

Wonder if the town will spend $11 million for their own water treatment plant?

The city of Geneva should quadruple the connection/usage fee for water/sewer for new 70 room motel that will be built between tractor supply and cole muffler in the town.

.
_________________________
"OUR COUNTRY IS IN MOURNING, A SOLDIER DIED TODAY."

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#911138 --- 11/03/08 05:16 PM Re: Building 12 on the Lakefront [Re: Miatasportscar]
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32556
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Miatasportscar
Bluzone:
.... why I moved here.


Would you be willing to pay in additional $1,400 per year to keep the lakefront natural?


.
_________________________
"OUR COUNTRY IS IN MOURNING, A SOLDIER DIED TODAY."

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#911140 --- 11/03/08 05:16 PM Re: Building 12 on the Lakefront [Re: bluezone]
SFisWonderful Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/30/08
Posts: 1928
Loc: NEW YORK
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Miatasportscar
Bluzone:
You do not know what property I own or did own both in Geneva and Town.


Checked the county records and it shows you only have one property in the town.

is the 2nd number of your house a -- 1?
is the 2nd letter of the road you live on a -- U?
is the 2nd number of your recently paid tax bill a -- 9?
is the 2nd letter of your first name an -- E?

Wonder if the town will spend $11 million for their own water treatment plant?

The city of Geneva should quadruple the connection/usage fee for water/sewer for new 70 room motel that will be built between tractor supply and cole muffler in the town.

.


Spooooky. and I thought halloween was all over with. or maybe bluezone is david copperfield! whats the 2nd letter of the road I live on?

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#911148 --- 11/03/08 05:20 PM Re: Building 12 on the Lakefront [Re: SFisWonderful]
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32556
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: SFisWonderful
:
Spooooky. and I thought halloween was all over with. or maybe bluezone is david copperfield! whats the 2nd letter of the road I live on?


Want to know the last 5 calls you made?

;\)
_________________________
"OUR COUNTRY IS IN MOURNING, A SOLDIER DIED TODAY."

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#911194 --- 11/03/08 05:43 PM Re: Building 12 on the Lakefront [Re: bluezone]
SFisWonderful Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/30/08
Posts: 1928
Loc: NEW YORK
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: SFisWonderful
:
Spooooky. and I thought halloween was all over with. or maybe bluezone is david copperfield! whats the 2nd letter of the road I live on?


Want to know the last 5 calls you made?

;\)


surre!

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