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#1161232 --- 03/18/10 07:31 PM Re: Trust Lawsuit [Re: grinch]
bluezone Offline
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Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32545
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: grinch
If I remember correctly you said you did something similar on another such form.


I think you are referring to his new york state fair entrance episode
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#1161239 --- 03/18/10 07:34 PM Re: Trust Lawsuit [Re: Rich_Tallcot]
Rich_Tallcot Offline
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Registered: 01/19/03
Posts: 5565
Loc: Greeneville, TN
PS: Knowing the census BS, if you write in "American Native" they will ID you as a "Native American" anyway. All that will do is allow the tribe more federal funding.

One does not have to prove what race they are or verify anything on a census form. I make it fun.

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#1161251 --- 03/18/10 07:38 PM Re: Trust Lawsuit [Re: Rich_Tallcot]
Rich_Tallcot Offline
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Registered: 01/19/03
Posts: 5565
Loc: Greeneville, TN
PPS: Having flashbacks - wow that was a long time ago - like ten years ago during the last census. I even remembered the web site. http://www.checkother.com/

You have a good memory.

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#1161400 --- 03/19/10 06:24 AM Re: Trust Lawsuit [Re: Rich_Tallcot]
grinch Offline
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Registered: 08/28/01
Posts: 4613
Loc: New York State
Thanks for the web site.

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#1162075 --- 03/20/10 11:35 PM Re: Trust Lawsuit [Re: Rich_Tallcot]
Rich_Tallcot Offline
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Registered: 01/19/03
Posts: 5565
Loc: Greeneville, TN
Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
Notice:
CITIZENS EQUAL RIGHTS ALLIANCE (CERA), CENTRAL NEW YORK FAIR BUSINESS, INC. AND MICHAEL HENNESSEY ARE HOLDING AN OPEN FORUM TO DISCUSS THE AMENDED COMPLAINT ON THE RECORD OF DECISION AND THE STATUS OF IT IN LIGHT OF JUDGE KAHN'S DECISION OF MARCH 1ST, 2010.

THE forum which is open to the public is being held Tuesday March 16th, 7:30 at the Vernon Town Office Building Vernon, 4305 Peterboro Rd., New York.


Here is a news article covering the forum in Vernon followed by a more in depth audio interview with Lana Marcussen that preceeded the forum meeting.

As she explains we are actually excited in having the rulings made because this is one case that will actually be argued based on the merits. We'll have this case wrapped up before the Supreme Court within three years.

One reason I think Judge Hurd will likely reverse his position of these being federal reservation lands is because the Second Circuit already ruled they were state lands. No, I'm not referring to Sherrill.

Hawaii v. OHA is at least the third SCOTUS ruling that said the feds cannot take state sovereign land without the state's consent.

Furthermore, Congress cannot authorize the Sec. of Interior to do what Congress does not have the power to do itself.

The IRA is constitutional. But it does not apply here because there are not and never were any federal public domain lands.

Under these set of facts, it is highly unethical for any public official to try and negotiate away New York State sovereignty.

That is ESPECIALLY directed at Oneida County Executive Picente.



http://www.wibx950.com/LocalNewsHeadlines/tabid/11470/newsid13176/41693/mid/13176/Default.aspx
CERA Attorney: Land-into-Trust Litigation NOT DEAD! "We don't want Picente screwing you behind your backs!"

TALKING Land-into-Trust Litigation, against the Oneida Indian Nation; the message from the Citizens Equal Rights Alliance to the people of Vernon is:

"We Have Not Lost!"

Legal Consultant Lana Marcuseen says there is still a huge constitutional question pending in the courts, of whether the secretary of the interior can take the Oneida's land out of state jurisdiction AT ALL, she says the U.S. will have to answer that question next Wednesday, March 24, 2010.

Marcussen told those who attended her informational meeting in Vernon last night "We don't want the county executive screwing you behind your backs...I think it's completely unethical for any official of the state of NY to be talking about conceding sovereignty when we have a constitutional question pending over whether the federal government has any right to take the sovereignty of NY away."

Oneida County Executive Tony Picente says, "I have never done anything unethical to the people of Oneida County and those statements show the great divide on this issue, and the fact that certain people don't want to be reasonable and civil."

Citizens Equal Rights Alliance is fighting to have other constitutional claims against the Oneida Nation land-into-trust decision reconsidered.

Listen to the eight minute, post-meeting interview with Lana Marcussen and WIBX News Reporter Jenn Ringrose. (Below)

Audio interview link with Lana Marcussen It takes a couple minutes to load.
http://www.wibx950.com/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=8XSHfhXzocc%3d&tabid=11470

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#1162534 --- 03/22/10 10:53 AM Re: Trust Lawsuit [Re: Rich_Tallcot]
bluezone Offline
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Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32545
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot

Oneida County Executive Tony Picente says, "I have never done anything unethical to the people of Oneida County and those statements show the great divide on this issue, and the fact that certain people don't want to be reasonable and civil."


and the one sided deal picente made with ray was reasonable...only from the tribes side
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#1162571 --- 03/22/10 11:55 AM Re: Trust Lawsuit [Re: bluezone]
Dinky Dau Offline
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Posts: 304
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I'm NOT looking to start a feud,But i would like to ask a question.

A big question seems to be can the Feds Take State land.

If the state can take any land under eminent domain. ( Yours or mine ).

Can the Feds take state land under Eminent Domain as well?

If the Feds can claim eminent domain would that not allow the feds to hold said land in trust for the Tribes?


Under the supreme court ruling even historical land marks can now be taken by eminent domain.
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#1162617 --- 03/22/10 01:42 PM Re: Trust Lawsuit [Re: Dinky Dau]
SilverFox Offline
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Registered: 11/19/00
Posts: 6483
Loc: Waterloo
I think there is a legal technicality because NYS is one of the original 13 colonies. My understanding is that the orginal 13 colonies that became states have a unique legal status that the rest of the states don't have. They maintained a "sovereign" status and NYS lands are sovereign to NYS. Because of this status the state treaties with the Indians also have a special status of Sovereign to Sovereign government. Because of this status the Federal government should not be able to take NYS lands into trust, etc. unless NYS agrees to it. Unfortunately, too many of our politicians are prone to ignorantly go along with things without sufficient thought to the long term consequences.

Rich is the expert and perhaps he can explain this better than I have.
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#1162682 --- 03/22/10 04:33 PM Re: Trust Lawsuit [Re: SilverFox]
Dinky Dau Offline
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Registered: 01/12/09
Posts: 304
Loc: Confused
Silver i think you are right. However Eminent Domain would not be dependent on treaties.
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#1162692 --- 03/22/10 04:38 PM Re: Trust Lawsuit [Re: Dinky Dau]
SilverFox Offline
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Registered: 11/19/00
Posts: 6483
Loc: Waterloo
Would Eminent Domain take president over NYS's sovereign status dating back to colonial days? Any one know?
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#1162731 --- 03/22/10 06:36 PM Re: Trust Lawsuit [Re: Dinky Dau]
bluezone Offline
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Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32545
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Dinky Dau
A big question seems to be can the Feds Take State land.

Originally Posted By: Rich Tallcot
Hawaii v. OHA is at least the third SCOTUS ruling that said the feds cannot take state sovereign land without the state's consent.

Originally Posted By: Dinky Dau
If the state can take any land under eminent domain. ( Yours or mine ).

Originally Posted By: bluezone
then I guess the state has a right to take back all state "reservations" and collect all taxes and enforce all NYS laws

Originally Posted By: Dinky Dau
If the Feds can claim eminent domain would that not allow the feds to hold said land in trust for the Tribes?


Originally Posted By: bluezone
have the tribes not benefited many times over with their illegal cigs sales and you want to give them more?
how much do we "owe" japan for their attack at pearl harbor?
Let the british give them their land as they sided with them and lost

Originally Posted By: Dinky Dau
Under the supreme court ruling even historical land marks can now be taken by eminent domain.

Originally Posted By: bluezone
Supreme Court???
since when does the tribes listen to those rulings......Sherrill / Carcieri rulings should have shut the tribes operations down

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#1162817 --- 03/22/10 10:38 PM Re: Trust Lawsuit [Re: SilverFox]
Rich_Tallcot Offline
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Registered: 01/19/03
Posts: 5565
Loc: Greeneville, TN
From Article 1 Section 8 clause 17 of the U.S. Constitution.

To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the Acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings;--And

Surely if the Congress needed the consent of the particular states to procure a seat of government for the new nation and if it needed consent of the Legislature of the State in which it purposed to purchase and build forts, arsenals etc for the National Defense it is difficult to reason that the Congress has any authority to take land from a State for a tribe or any other purpose without the consent of that state's legislature.

Congress can not delegate authority or authorities it simply does not have and has never had to the Sec. of the Interior or any other entity. Regulations should not trump the United States Constitution but then when is the last time anyone in DC actually read the Constitution - especially anyone at Interior.

Congress has authority over federal lands. As such, they had and have authority to pass and follow through on the Indian Reorganization Act. Remember, the purpose of this Act was to compensate tribal Indians that became homeless as a result of the Dawes Act. It was a good Act and it is a good Act. It applies to any states that have federal public domain lands, which included all the states affected by the Dawes Act. As such it is constitutional. That is why all challenges to its constitutionality have been defeated.

But the colony states do not and never did have any federal public domain lands.

In CERA's lawsuit, we do not assert that a constitutional defect exists in the IRA. Plaintiffs assert that the Secretary has no authority under 25 U.S.C. § 465 to create a federal Indian reservation or federal Indian land in New York. At this point, no land has been taken into trust under 25 U.S.C. § 465 for the OIN.

When the Secretary misinterprets a law enacted by Congress like the IRA, to confer upon himself a power that Congress itself does not possess, his action is not only ultra vires but it also violates separation of power principles by treating the State of New York as if it were a federal territory of the United States. This is a violation of federalism. Congress does have the authority to buy land for Indians. Congress itself does not have the authority to restore sovereignty over the land it has purchased by withdrawing the land from state jurisdiction. See Hawaii v. Office of Hawaiian Affairs, 129 S.Ct 1436 (2009).

Eminent domain refers to the power possessed by the state over all property within the state, specifically its power to appropriate property for a public use. In some jurisdictions, the state delegates eminent domain power to certain public and private companies, typically utilities, such that they can bring eminent domain actions to run telephone, power, water, or gas lines. In most countries, including the United States under the Fifth Amendment to the Constitution, the owner of any appropriated land is entitled to reasonable compensation, usually defined as the fair market value of the property.

Lands held in trust for Indian tribes are not for public use. They are lands set aside specifically for the use of an Indian tribe. The public does not have a right to enter without permission from the tribe.

So for the United States to argue that taking state sovereign land and giving it to a race based government whose subjects do not have Constitutional rights is for the good of the general public, then they are going to have to argue that the Dred Scott decision was correct.

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#1163665 --- 03/24/10 04:47 PM Re: Trust Lawsuit [Re: Rich_Tallcot]
bluezone Offline
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Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32545
Loc: USA
sounds logical
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#1164429 --- 03/26/10 10:12 AM Re: Trust Lawsuit [Re: Rich_Tallcot]
bluezone Offline
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Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32545
Loc: USA
have the cayugas paid their federal cig taxes?
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#1169394 --- 04/08/10 10:03 AM Re: Trust Lawsuit [Re: Rich_Tallcot]
bluezone Offline
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Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32545
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
All that will do is allow the tribe more federal funding.


and they claim sovereignty
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#1169900 --- 04/09/10 02:40 PM Re: Trust Lawsuit [Re: Dinky Dau]
bluezone Offline
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Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32545
Loc: USA
navajo tribe to recieve $33 milion for high speed internet from the government. if the navajo tribe needs federal money with all the land they have why does the cayuga need trust land?
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#1226799 --- 10/17/10 09:32 AM Re: Trust Lawsuit [Re: Rich_Tallcot]
Rich_Tallcot Offline
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Registered: 01/19/03
Posts: 5565
Loc: Greeneville, TN
This thread ONLY deals with the Oneida trust lawsuits. It is NOT a new thread. There are several lawsuits fighting trust in Oneida-Madison. The outcome will assuredly affect attempted trust takeover in Cayuga-Seneca.

This is separate from all the tribal sales tax lawsuits in two different federal courts, the foreclosure case regarding property tax lawsuit headed to SCOUTS, and separate from any land claims.

I know at times there appears to be an excess of threads that appear to be related. But lately there appears to be an excess of different tribal issues.

Oneida trust case - it appears that the BIA is corrupt. Imagine that. You should have learned that much at our EIS hearing.

You should also understand that there is no federal trust land in New York State, including the 18 acres the news media keep reporting as being taken into trust. Those 18 acres have become part of the trust lawsuit. The feds tried using the Quiet Title Act and claimed sovereign immunity to block a lawsuit challenge, which is why one cannot make a challenge after the fact.

But until property is listed in the federal register as being taken into trust, it has not been accepted by the federal government, regardless of what the BIA says, and the Quiet Title Act does not apply. Deals the state makes in the interim may be reversed in the end.

Once again, the feds got caught breaking their own regulations. The ultimate question is, just how much bias does Judge Kahn dare to show?

Remember, our own federal misrepresentatives support and sustain this system. If you want more of the same, then reelect those in office.

Then again, there are wall flowers like Rep. Barney Frank who recently introduced a bill to rescind the ability to make FOIA requests. Yes, there is opposition to equality under the law within Congress. But we have the choice to reelect or replace our federal misrepresentatives, who all support this opposition through their actions and inactions. Actions speak louder than words. Your votes, or lack of, this November is an action.


In April, U.S. Magistrate David Peebles issued a decision saying the counties and state had introduced sufficient evidence of bias and prejudgment on the part of the DOI to take land into trust to allow greater access to DOI documents and depositions, Madison County Attorney John Campanie said.

According to Campanie, the counties' evidence suggests that the decision to take thousands of acres of land into trust was made before notification that an application was filed and that the decision was made before the application was even complete.

Movement in the case is paused while Kahn decides whether to affirm Peebles' decision or overturn it.


http://oneidadispatch.com/articles/2010/10/14/news/doc4cb66e6e52ba9361812927.txt
Land into trust case still in lower court
Thursday, October 14, 2010
By CAITLIN TRAYNOR
Dispatch Staff Writer

As the land foreclosure case between the Oneida Indian Nation and Madison and Oneida counties moves to the United States Supreme Court, the land-into-trust case sits in trial-level federal court.

The Nation's application with the Bureau of Indian Affairs to put land into trust came quickly after its defeat in the Supreme Court with the City of Sherrill case, where an 8-1 vote decided newly-purchased land was not subject to tribal sovereignty. The April 2005 application requested the federal government take 17,370 acres of land into trust for the benefit of the Nation.

In 2008, the U.S. Department of Interior granted 13,000 acres into federal trust - about 9,000 in Oneida County and 4,000 in Madison County. The counties, along with the state, sued to stop the DOI's action and a second lawsuit from the towns of Vernon and Verona followed. [For whatever reason, the Oneida Dispatch neglects to point out that lawsuits were also filed by UCE, the CNYFBA & CERA, and the National Grid. ]

Northern New York District Judge Lawrence Kahn, in late 2009, ruled to eliminate three of the 17 original causes of action in the state and counties' cases and five other causes of action filed after 18 acres of surplus U.S. Air Force land in Verona were granted into trust. Fourteen causes of action still need to be decided on by Kahn.

In April, U.S. Magistrate David Peebles issued a decision saying the counties and state had introduced sufficient evidence of bias and prejudgment on the part of the DOI to take land into trust to allow greater access to DOI documents and depositions, Madison County Attorney John Campanie said.

According to Campanie, the counties' evidence suggests that the decision to take thousands of acres of land into trust was made before notification that an application was filed and that the decision was made before the application was even complete. The Oneida Nation subsequently appealed Peebles' decision to grant the counties and state greater access to documentation and an opportunity to depose DOI Associate Deputy Secretary James Cason.

Movement in the case is paused while Kahn decides whether to affirm Peebles’ decision or overturn it.

"We're simply waiting for Judge Kahn's decision on that," Campanie said.

Beyond that decision are 14 causes of actions that still waiting judgment. Until then, no land is in federal custody.

Once the case is concluded, Kahn's decision is subject to appeal, Campanie said. The land into trust case could see a similar progression as the land foreclosure case, as Kahn's decision, whatever it is, will likely be appealed to the Second Circuit Court of Appeals and then to the U.S. Supreme Court.

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#1227116 --- 10/18/10 01:33 PM Re: Trust Lawsuit [Re: Rich_Tallcot]
bluezone Offline
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Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32545
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot

According to Campanie, the counties' evidence suggests that the decision to take thousands of acres of land into trust was made before notification that an application was filed and that the decision was made before the application was even complete.


another back door scam by ray
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#1230884 --- 11/01/10 02:57 PM Re: Trust Lawsuit [Re: bluezone]
bluezone Offline
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Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32545
Loc: USA
deny it
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#1232701 --- 11/10/10 09:57 AM Re: Trust Lawsuit [Re: bluezone]
bluezone Offline
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Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32545
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot

According to Campanie, the counties' evidence suggests that the decision to take thousands of acres of land into trust was made before notification that an application was filed and that the decision was made before the application was even complete.


I did not sign up for trust so can I have some trust land?
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