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#843942 --- 07/17/08 11:34 PM Re: FISA Unlimited spying.... [Re: Brad ONeill]
Senecamom Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 02/03/06
Posts: 7411
Loc: On a journey......
All I am saying is that the continual stripping of the Fourth amendment is collectivley what is chipping away at what our Founding Fathers had in mind. The idea that government can straddle the definitions and use statements such as " reasonable suspicion", and that without any oversight, checks and balances, to keep them within the context of the Constitution, we are sacrificing what we as a nation have been fighting for all along. That is all I am worried about...
The Fourth Amendment (Amendment IV) to the United States Constitution is one of the provisions included in the Bill of Rights. The Fourth Amendment guards against unreasonable searches and seizures, and was designed as a response to the controversial writs of assistance (a type of general search warrant), which were a significant factor behind the American Revolution.

Toward that end, the amendment specifies that judicially sanctioned search and arrest warrants must be supported by probable cause and be limited in scope according to specific information supplied by a person (usually a peace officer) who has sworn by it and is therefore accountable to the issuing court.
End of story, the bill passed.
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#843945 --- 07/17/08 11:40 PM Re: FISA Unlimited spying.... [Re: Senecamom]
Brad ONeill Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/10/08
Posts: 567
Loc: Seneca Falls NY
Originally Posted By: senecamom
All I am saying is that the continual stripping of the Fourth amendment is collectivley what is chipping away at what our Founding Fathers had in mind. The idea that government can straddle the definitions and use statements such as " reasonable suspicion", and that without any oversight, checks and balances, to keep them within the context of the Constitution, we are sacrificing what we as a nation have been fighting for all along. That is all I am worried about...
The Fourth Amendment (Amendment IV) to the United States Constitution is one of the provisions included in the Bill of Rights. The Fourth Amendment guards against unreasonable searches and seizures, and was designed as a response to the controversial writs of assistance (a type of general search warrant), which were a significant factor behind the American Revolution.

Toward that end, the amendment specifies that judicially sanctioned search and arrest warrants must be supported by probable cause and be limited in scope according to specific information supplied by a person (usually a peace officer) who has sworn by it and is therefore accountable to the issuing court.
End of story, the bill passed.


Thats not all you said. You came in here with a copy/paste from the ACLU site about opposition to a bill that passed last year and expired 6 months ago, lol. If you cant even get your own facts and claims straight why should anybody take you seriously?

Everyone wants to be an Internet activist around here. How about you go read the new FISA act and then make a decision instead of just reading what you see on TV and the Internet? The maybe you will be more informed and not come off as a fool.

And if you read the new act (which you obviously didnt) there is checks and balances, its called the need for the warrant after 7 days. That is a judicial branch check on the executive branch. The only thing up for debate really is the 7 day window and even that debate is done because the bill is now law.

The left hates this law but the best part is the lord barack obama, the savior of the left, voted for it. Hows that for change you can believe in?
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#843948 --- 07/17/08 11:49 PM Re: FISA Unlimited spying.... [Re: Brad ONeill]
Senecamom Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 02/03/06
Posts: 7411
Loc: On a journey......
There is much more up for debate and if you read it you would know the controversey is not only 7 days....

I am only ONE of the 65,000 people so far who are active in preserving OUR rights.

Your kids will be thankful for patriots like me A**HOLE
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#843950 --- 07/17/08 11:51 PM Re: FISA Unlimited spying.... [Re: Duude]
VM Smith Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 11/28/05
Posts: 38160
Loc: Ship of Fools
Originally Posted By: Duude
Exactly. Afterall, just because the government can eavesdrop on you without any warrant or probable cause does not mean you are any less free.

If you are doing nothing wrong, you have nothing to worry about. Right?
(I think Stalin probably used that phrase at some point.)


"Conservatives will repeat endlessly that Americans who are doing nothing wrong have nothing to fear. If this argument held any water, there would have been no point in the Founding Fathers writing the Constitution." -- Paul Craig Roberts.
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#843953 --- 07/17/08 11:55 PM Re: FISA Unlimited spying.... [Re: Senecamom]
Brad ONeill Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/10/08
Posts: 567
Loc: Seneca Falls NY
Originally Posted By: senecamom
There is much more up for debate and if you read it you would know the controversey is not only 7 days....

I am only ONE of the 65,000 people so far who are active in preserving OUR rights.

Your kids will be thankful for patriots like me A**HOLE


If I read it? Are you serious? You couldnt even figure out which bill you were so against. Dont be mad at me because you couldnt even get the right bill.

I bet you are real active in preserving rights because posting threads with the wrong bills on the local web forum is real activist of you along with clicking petitions on the internet. The founders would be proud.

What else is up for debate from the new FISA bill then since now all of a sudden you know all about that? The amendments purpose was to establish the 7 day window and that was pretty much all it did so what else is to debate about it? Come on enlighten me please. Or will you resort to call me an a**hole again?

Patriot, lol, if thats what you call posting your thoughts from behind a keyboard on a web forum.
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#843958 --- 07/18/08 12:14 AM Re: FISA Unlimited spying.... [Re: Brad ONeill]
Brad ONeill Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/10/08
Posts: 567
Loc: Seneca Falls NY
Here is the introduced bill again in case you missed it. What other points would you like to inquire about?




6/19/2008--Introduced.
Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978 Amendments Act of 2008 or FISA Amendments Act of 2008 - Amends the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978 (FISA) to authorize the Attorney General (AG) and Director of National Intelligence (DNI) to jointly authorize the targeting (electronic surveillance) of persons located outside the United States in order to acquire foreign intelligence information, subject to specified requirements, including:
(1) prior certification to the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court (Court); and
(2) certain targeting and minimization procedures. Authorizes:
(1) the AG and DNI to direct an electronic communication service provider (provider) to provide the government with all necessary assistance to accomplish the acquisition of information from targeted persons; and
(2) the provider to challenge such a directive through the Court. Requires the AG and DNI to conduct semiannual assessments of compliance with targeting and minimization procedures. Provides Court jurisdiction for approving the targeting of a U.S. person located outside the United States when the acquisition is conducted within the United States. Allows the AG to authorize an emergency acquisition of such a target in certain circumstances, upon application within seven days for a Court order authorizing the surveillance. Provides similar Court jurisdiction and outlines similar procedures for the acquisition (and emergency acquisition) of a physical search. Authorizes:
(1) joint applications and concurrent approvals of requests for acquisitions proposed to be conducted both inside and outside the United States; and
(2) concurrent authorizations of electronic surveillance and physical searches. Directs the AG to report semiannually to the intelligence and judiciary committees concerning the implementation of information acquisition requirements. States that, other than by express statutory authorization, FISA and the procedures of chapters 119 (Wire and Electronic Communications Interception and Interception of Oral Communications), 121 (Stored Wire and Electronic Communications and Transactional Records Access), and 206 (Pen Registers and Trap and Trace Devices) of the federal criminal code shall be the exclusive means by which electronic surveillance and the interception of domestic wire, oral, or electronic communications may be conducted. Requires the AG to submit semiannually to the intelligence committees copies of any orders of the Court or the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court of Review that include significant construction or interpretation of FISA, including any such orders issued during the five-year period before the enactment of this Act. Requires the AG, after authorizing the installation and use of a pen register or trap and trace device on an emergency basis, to apply to the Court for an authorization order within seven days (current law requires 48 hours) after the emergency installation and use. Authorizes the Court to sit en banc when:
(1) necessary to secure or maintain uniformity of Court decisions; or
(2) the proceeding involves a question of exceptional importance. Authorizes the acquisition of foreign intelligence information from an entity not substantially composed of U.S. persons that is engaged in the international proliferation of weapons of mass destruction. Provides certain protections for entities (including a provider, custodian, or landlord) providing surveillance assistance at the request of the AG or the intelligence community. Requires the review of surveillance actions conducted during the period beginning on September 11, 2001, and ending on January 17, 2007.
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#843962 --- 07/18/08 12:47 AM Re: FISA Unlimited spying.... [Re: Brad ONeill]
La Revolucion Offline
Member

Registered: 06/25/08
Posts: 348
Loc: Waterloo
Yea, thats how they get their foot in the door of your personal life with this 7 day BS. After that they will find a reason to spy on you more, even if it means making something up.

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#843966 --- 07/18/08 01:32 AM Re: FISA Unlimited spying.... [Re: La Revolucion]
VM Smith Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 11/28/05
Posts: 38160
Loc: Ship of Fools
Speaking here at a political conference on Friday, Barr focused almost exclusively on privacy and eavesdropping–and argued that both major parties are far too surveillance-happy. “Both of them will continue down the same track,” Barr said, noting that both McCain and Obama supported last week’s bill to immunize telecommunications companies that illegally opened their networks to government snoops.

Congress’ legislative rewrite of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA) is “not about surveilling al-Qaida,” Barr said. “It’s about surveilling U.S. citizens in America.” He added, for good measure: “This administration is the most anti-privacy, the most anti-individual freedom, in our nation’s history, certainly in my lifetime.”
[...]
Barr also likes to swipe at the Real ID Act, a law creating a federalized identity card that’s effectively on hold until December 31. “It was passed by the Congress not as a national ID, which it is in every way except a name,” he said. “It is a national ID for the first time in our nation’s history…If certain people were elected president, it would not go into effect.”

During the Libertarian Party’s presidential debate in Denver, the candidates were asked what they’d do about Real ID and the Patriot Act. Barr’s reply was captured on video by C-SPAN: “Fear has become the driving force behind all public policy in our country…(For the Patriot Act), I’d drive a stake through its heart, shoot it, burn it, cut off its head, burn it again, and scatter its ashes to the four corners of the world.”
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#843968 --- 07/18/08 01:49 AM Re: FISA Unlimited spying.... [Re: Brad ONeill]
past tense Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 03/05/03
Posts: 29711
Loc: Houston, TX
Originally Posted By: Brad ONeill
Thats not all you said. You came in here with a copy/paste from the ACLU site about opposition to a bill that passed last year and expired 6 months ago, lol. If you cant even get your own facts and claims straight why should anybody take you seriously?


senecamom ONLY cuts and pastes. And she doesn't bother citing sources, either. For example:

Originally Posted By: senecamom
All I am saying is that the continual stripping of the Fourth amendment is collectivley what is chipping away at what our Founding Fathers had in mind. The idea that government can straddle the definitions and use statements such as " reasonable suspicion", and that without any oversight, checks and balances, to keep them within the context of the Constitution, we are sacrificing what we as a nation have been fighting for all along. That is all I am worried about...
The Fourth Amendment (Amendment IV) to the United States Constitution is one of the provisions included in the Bill of Rights. The Fourth Amendment guards against unreasonable searches and seizures, and was designed as a response to the controversial writs of assistance (a type of general search warrant), which were a significant factor behind the American Revolution.

Toward that end, the amendment specifies that judicially sanctioned search and arrest warrants must be supported by probable cause and be limited in scope according to specific information supplied by a person (usually a peace officer) who has sworn by it and is therefore accountable to the issuing court.
End of story, the bill passed.


...is a lot of stuff from MY FAVORITE, Wikipedia.

Originally Posted By: Brad ONeill
Everyone wants to be an Internet activist around here.


Including you, Mr. Yahoo-Internet-Search Results, Mr. Wikipedia-Citation-Boy.

Originally Posted By: Brad ONeill
How about you go read the new FISA act and then make a decision instead of just reading what you see on TV and the Internet? The maybe you will be more informed and not come off as a fool.


Please don't ruin my fun!

She won't - I already asked her to post ONE THING that wasn't written by someone else. Still waiting.
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#843969 --- 07/18/08 01:50 AM Re: FISA Unlimited spying.... [Re: Brad ONeill]
past tense Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 03/05/03
Posts: 29711
Loc: Houston, TX
Originally Posted By: Brad ONeill
Patriot, lol, if thats what you call posting your thoughts from behind a keyboard on a web forum.


As opposed to writing anonymously on paper ?
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#843974 --- 07/18/08 02:29 AM Re: FISA Unlimited spying.... [Re: past tense]
VM Smith Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 11/28/05
Posts: 38160
Loc: Ship of Fools
"
"Silence Dogood" has been pointed to as the mother of a rich history of anonymity in American journalism. What is true is that between April and October of 1722 New England Courant Publisher James Franklin printed 14 articles that had been slipped under his door.

The author "Silence Dogood" claimed to be the widow of a country minister, but Franklin suspected the name was a pseudonym for someone else. It was common for eighteenth century journalists, including Franklin's, to use pseudonyms when writing articles that the authorities might have been considered to be libelous or illegal.

Historical records infer that James Franklin knew the identities of his other pseudonymous contributors, but not that of "Silence Dogood." That failing was perhaps one of many reckless publishing decisions by Franklin, who soon served jail time for his own writings in the Courant and who the Boston authorities later banned from publishing newspapers. He was meanwhile not amused to learn that "Silence Dogood" was actually his 16-year-old brother and apprentice Benjamin Franklin.

Unlike James Franklin, American Weekly Mercury Publisher Andrew Bradford of Philadelphia knew before publication that "Caelia Shortface" and "Martha Careful" were pseudonyms for Ben Franklin, who had fled Boston and joined Bradford’s employ.

When Franklin himself later became a newspaper publisher, he occasionally published his own articles under the pseudonyms "Anthony Afterwit" and "Alice Addertongue." Yet the "Richard Saunders" of the eponymous book "Poor Richard's Almanac" was probably publisher Ben Franklin's best-known, self-permitted pseudonym.

There is a rich history of pseudonymity in American opinion journalism. Alexander Hamilton, James Madison and John Jay wrote "The Federalist Papers" using the pseudonym "Publius," but not without their publisher's prior permission and knowledge of their true identities. A more recent example occurred in 1947 when the publisher of Foreign Affairs granted the Moscow-based American diplomat George Kennan the pseudonym "X" to write the renowned political essay proposing the geographic containment of Communism.

Though I can't think of a current American periodical that regularly grants pseudonyms to its writers, the British publishers of the Financial Times and The Economist regularly grant them for some of their columnists.

In all the examples I've mentioned, the publishers not only knew the pseudonymous writers' true identities but also vetted the writers' submissions before publication. That's a far cry from publishing anonymous blog postings.

Though there is a rich history of pseudonymity in American journalism, there is none of anonymity. It has long been understood that if the publisher of a reputable periodical grants a writer use of a pseudonym, then that publisher knows the writer's true identity and takes responsibility -- legal and otherwise -- for that writer's words."


"A Conversation on Slavery

On January 30, 1770, an annonymous missive, entitled A Conversation on Slavery appeared in the Public Advertiser, a Philadelphia newspaper. Written in the style of three individuals -- an Englishman, an American, and a Scotsman -- having a discussion concerning the problem of slavery and the slave trade, the three present a daming testimony of the moral failings of each participant's society. The American character is forced to deflect criticisms from his two companions about the practice of keeping slaves while still clamoring for political liberty at home, turns the tables on the Scot and Englishman by pointing out that their own societies kept men in bondage in the same manner as Americans kept African-Americans. A Conversation would remain an anonymous writing until 1934, when its authorship was proven to belong to one of America's Founding Fathers: Benjamin Franklin. The Conversation is considered the turning point in Franklin's long relationship with the institution of slavery away from his younger years as a slave owner, to an abolitionist."
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#844036 --- 07/18/08 06:19 AM Re: FISA Unlimited spying.... [Re: La Revolucion]
Al Kida Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/14/06
Posts: 3102
Originally Posted By: La Revolucion
You republicans always praise how free you are in this country, not even realising we are all becoming prisoners. You republicans consider yourselves true Americans right?



Yes!!!

Is all republicans fault!!!

Forget fact majority of congress are Democrats!!!

Is republicans fault!!!
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#844075 --- 07/18/08 07:45 AM Re: FISA Unlimited spying.... [Re: past tense]
Brad ONeill Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/10/08
Posts: 567
Loc: Seneca Falls NY
Originally Posted By: past tense
Originally Posted By: Brad ONeill
Patriot, lol, if thats what you call posting your thoughts from behind a keyboard on a web forum.


As opposed to writing anonymously on paper ?


No, as opposed to actually doing something of value.
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#844118 --- 07/18/08 09:54 AM Re: FISA Unlimited spying.... [Re: Brad ONeill]
past tense Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 03/05/03
Posts: 29711
Loc: Houston, TX
Originally Posted By: Brad ONeill
Originally Posted By: past tense
Originally Posted By: Brad ONeill
Patriot, lol, if thats what you call posting your thoughts from behind a keyboard on a web forum.


As opposed to writing anonymously on paper ?


No, as opposed to actually doing something of value.


Frankly, you have no idea if she's also doing anything that you would deem "of value" just as none of us have any idea if you are doing anything besides "posting your thoughts from behind a keyboard on a web forum".

Calling the kettle black a lot in this thread, aren't we Brad?
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