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#843222 --- 07/16/08 08:53 PM FISA Unlimited spying....
Senecamom Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 02/03/06
Posts: 7411
Loc: On a journey......
Tell Congress: Fix FISA, Defend the Constitution!

I am absolutely outraged that the "Protect America Act" allows for no meaningful oversight by either Congress or the courts of interception of my private emails and phone calls.

It's unbelievable that it leaves decisions about the collection, mining and use of information up to the Bush Administration's Attorney General and Director of National Intelligence. Please do everything in your power to protect my rights before you consider making ANY of the powers in the "Protect America Act" permanent.It's also critical that Congress not grant immunity to telecommunications companies for past violations of the law, or grant government spying operations direct and unfettered access to the internet backbone and telecommunications infrastructure.

Legislation that's passed must protect my privacy and restore checks and balances.

Before leaving for August recess, Congress caved in to President Bush and his demand for out-of-control authority to spy on Americans' emails and phone calls by passing the so-called "Protect America Act." We're calling this bill the "Police America Act," because it allows for the massive, untargeted collection of Americans international communications without court order.

The only good news about this bill is that it's set to expire 6 months after it was signed into law. But Congress is rushing forward. Critical votes happening this week that could permanently grant vast new spying powers to Bush and all future presidents, with no meaningful oversight by Congress or any court.

http://www.aclu.org/
go to ACTIONS and e-sign acopy of a letter like this one then CLICK send...make a difference. Thanks.

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#843542 --- 07/17/08 12:26 PM Re: FISA Unlimited spying.... [Re: Senecamom]
Greymane Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/09/06
Posts: 6848
Loc: Central PA
It is absurd that you are so concerned with this. First, if you are so concerned about people listening to your phone calls, maybe you should think about what you are saying. More importantly, when you are trying to find the money to pay your heating bill this winter, will this be very important? Criminals can access your phone calls and email with absolutely zero checks and balances. Get over it.
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Against logic there is no armor like ignorance. - Dr. Lawrence J. Peter

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#843543 --- 07/17/08 12:30 PM Re: FISA Unlimited spying.... [Re: Greymane]
Duude Offline
Member

Registered: 05/01/08
Posts: 425
Loc: Seneca Falls
Exactly. Afterall, just because the government can eavesdrop on you without any warrant or probable cause does not mean you are any less free.

If you are doing nothing wrong, you have nothing to worry about. Right?
(I think Stalin probably used that phrase at some point.)
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"History, in general, only informs us of what bad government is."
Thomas Jefferson

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#843545 --- 07/17/08 12:37 PM Re: FISA Unlimited spying.... [Re: Duude]
Brad ONeill Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/10/08
Posts: 567
Loc: Seneca Falls NY
I believe it only allows for unwarranmted tapping for 7 days, after that a warrant is required for further tapping. Of course the article from the ACLU didnt mention that part.
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#843546 --- 07/17/08 12:42 PM Re: FISA Unlimited spying.... [Re: Brad ONeill]
La Revolucion Offline
Member

Registered: 06/25/08
Posts: 348
Loc: Waterloo
I agree with senecamom completely. And the "if your doing nothing wrong, you have nothing to worry about" arguement is flawed. What if the people in the government who are doing this monitoring, are the ones who need to be monitored? Who are these people? How do we know they are not a bunch of low life sumbags? (Which I believe they are.)

And Greymane, ee are supposed to have the right to say whatever we feel like saying in our private conversations. What right do you have to tell someone they should "watch what they say" in a private phone conversation? How dare you, my good sir. No one has that right.

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#843776 --- 07/17/08 06:43 PM Re: FISA Unlimited spying.... [Re: La Revolucion]
threeputt Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/08/01
Posts: 2800
Loc: Waterloo
Obama's vote on this cost him my support. I cannot believe anyone could think this is OK in America. When St. Ronnie called the Soviet Union an "evil empire" he was referring in part to the repression of their own people using the same techniques FISA allows. I visited the Soviet Union in 1975 (with a group of other professionals) and our Intourist guide was asked about this very issue (spying on their citizens, secret police, etc) and she was surprisingly candid that yes indeed, the state did do these things. Why? NATIONAL SECURITY. The irony is that if dubya wants to spy on people in complete secrecy, he can. There is already a mechanism in place to obtain a warrant quickly if need be. But, of course, that raises the possibility he could be turned down. Those of you who are unconcerned about this have apparently forgotten what it is to live in a society free from unwarranted government intrusion.

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#843794 --- 07/17/08 07:24 PM Re: FISA Unlimited spying.... [Re: threeputt]
Senecamom Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 02/03/06
Posts: 7411
Loc: On a journey......
Originally Posted By: threeputt
Obama's vote on this cost him my support. I cannot believe anyone could think this is OK in America. When St. Ronnie called the Soviet Union an "evil empire" he was referring in part to the repression of their own people using the same techniques FISA allows. I visited the Soviet Union in 1975 (with a group of other professionals) and our Intourist guide was asked about this very issue (spying on their citizens, secret police, etc) and she was surprisingly candid that yes indeed, the state did do these things. Why? NATIONAL SECURITY. The irony is that if dubya wants to spy on people in complete secrecy, he can. There is already a mechanism in place to obtain a warrant quickly if need be. But, of course, that raises the possibility he could be turned down. Those of you who are unconcerned about this have apparently forgotten what it is to live in a society free from unwarranted government intrusion.


Freedom....
Is the Government concerned about security-or is it about power?

Why are some fighting so hard for retroactive immunity? The answer, I believe, is that immunity means secrecy, and secrecy means power.
_________________________
~Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing, there is a field. I'll meet you there.~

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#843844 --- 07/17/08 08:53 PM Re: FISA Unlimited spying.... [Re: Senecamom]
La Revolucion Offline
Member

Registered: 06/25/08
Posts: 348
Loc: Waterloo
As threeputt stated, those of you who are perfectly OK with this unwarranted, uncalled for spying have forgotten what it means to live in a free society. You republicans always praise how free you are in this country, not even realising we are all becoming prisoners. You republicans consider yourselves true Americans right? Well apparently you've forgotten that this is the exact sort of government the founding fathers fought against. This is exactly what they wanted to rid themselves of, a tyrant government and too much governmental control. Perhaps it is YOU who have forgotten what it means to be American.

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#843859 --- 07/17/08 09:14 PM Re: FISA Unlimited spying.... [Re: La Revolucion]
threeputt Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/08/01
Posts: 2800
Loc: Waterloo
There has been a "shadow government" in America since dubya took over. There is so much secrecy that no one can even guess how much there is. Why? People who abuse their power need to protect themselves from the light of truth. Historians are going to have a field day when the current White House occupant is sent on his way.

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#843915 --- 07/17/08 10:15 PM Re: FISA Unlimited spying.... [Re: threeputt]
Brad ONeill Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/10/08
Posts: 567
Loc: Seneca Falls NY
Its only unwarranted for up to 7 days, after that they need a warrant. I can understand needing some time in immediate situations is they are tipped off about something. 7 days is fair to me. Its not like they are able to do it unlimited.

Dubya is leaving in 6 months, I doubt he cares to spy on anyone.
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#843918 --- 07/17/08 10:19 PM Re: FISA Unlimited spying.... [Re: La Revolucion]
Senecamom Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 02/03/06
Posts: 7411
Loc: On a journey......
I am the one who posted oppisition....I started this thread to end the invasions of privacy....
_________________________
~Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing, there is a field. I'll meet you there.~

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#843920 --- 07/17/08 10:26 PM Re: FISA Unlimited spying.... [Re: Senecamom]
Brad ONeill Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/10/08
Posts: 567
Loc: Seneca Falls NY
Originally Posted By: senecamom
I am the one who posted oppisition....I started this thread to end the invasions of privacy....


You think this thread on a finger lakes web forum is going to end this?? hahahaha Thats about as useless as sitting in a tree without food for days to stop global warming.

You Internet activists are a joke. How about spend your time doing something that will actually have results such as getting into local government where the difference is most made.



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On Site and In Store Services for Homes and Businesses

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#843921 --- 07/17/08 10:27 PM Re: FISA Unlimited spying.... [Re: La Revolucion]
Senecamom Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 02/03/06
Posts: 7411
Loc: On a journey......
Originally Posted By: La Revolucion
As threeputt stated, those of you who are perfectly OK with this unwarranted, uncalled for spying have forgotten what it means to live in a free society. You republicans always praise how free you are in this country, not even realising we are all becoming prisoners. You republicans consider yourselves true Americans right? Well apparently you've forgotten that this is the exact sort of government the founding fathers fought against. This is exactly what they wanted to rid themselves of, a tyrant government and too much governmental control. Perhaps it is YOU who have forgotten what it means to be American.


I know exactly what it means to be an American, I started the thread.....AGAINST FISA........geesh \:\(
_________________________
~Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing, there is a field. I'll meet you there.~

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#843922 --- 07/17/08 10:31 PM Re: FISA Unlimited spying.... [Re: Brad ONeill]
Senecamom Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 02/03/06
Posts: 7411
Loc: On a journey......
Originally Posted By: Brad ONeill
Originally Posted By: senecamom
I am the one who posted oppisition....I started this thread to end the invasions of privacy....


You think this thread on a finger lakes web forum is going to end this?? hahahaha Thats aboput as useless as sitting in a tree without food for days to stop global warming.





Just tried to get some folks to sign a document opposing the FISA Act before the Legislature goes on August break and the bills are passed without restrictions, and maybe some restrictions being lifted...
_________________________
~Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing, there is a field. I'll meet you there.~

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#843924 --- 07/17/08 10:36 PM Re: FISA Unlimited spying.... [Re: Senecamom]
Brad ONeill Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/10/08
Posts: 567
Loc: Seneca Falls NY
What I dont understand is what your major problem with a 7 day unwarranted wiretap is? What is the big deal if its just for a few days? Unlimited I would be against 100%, but a few days while waiting for a warrant in a situation that could be extremely important I can deal with. With the warrant still needed there is a check on the executive branch by the judicial branch just like the constitution intented.

I could give a damn what the government hears me say on the phone anyway, if they want to hear me talk dirty to my wife then thats their problem.

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#843928 --- 07/17/08 10:53 PM Re: FISA Unlimited spying.... [Re: Brad ONeill]
Senecamom Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 02/03/06
Posts: 7411
Loc: On a journey......
That was someone elses post, gawd.

I NEVER said anything about 7 days!


I am against the passing of the FISA ACT!
_________________________
~Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing, there is a field. I'll meet you there.~

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#843929 --- 07/17/08 10:56 PM Re: FISA Unlimited spying.... [Re: Senecamom]
Brad ONeill Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/10/08
Posts: 567
Loc: Seneca Falls NY
Originally Posted By: senecamom
That was someone elses post, gawd.

I NEVER said anything about 7 days!


I am against the passing of the FISA ACT!


Wait a second, you are whining about the new FISA act yet the new FISA act does not allow for unlimited unwarranted wiretapping, it allows for 7 days of unwarranted wiretapping.

Are you against a 7 day window period where a warrant is not required?
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#843931 --- 07/17/08 10:58 PM Re: FISA Unlimited spying.... [Re: Brad ONeill]
Brad ONeill Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/10/08
Posts: 567
Loc: Seneca Falls NY
6/19/2008--Introduced.
Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978 Amendments Act of 2008 or FISA Amendments Act of 2008 - Amends the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978 (FISA) to authorize the Attorney General (AG) and Director of National Intelligence (DNI) to jointly authorize the targeting (electronic surveillance) of persons located outside the United States in order to acquire foreign intelligence information, subject to specified requirements, including:
(1) prior certification to the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court (Court); and
(2) certain targeting and minimization procedures. Authorizes:
(1) the AG and DNI to direct an electronic communication service provider (provider) to provide the government with all necessary assistance to accomplish the acquisition of information from targeted persons; and
(2) the provider to challenge such a directive through the Court. Requires the AG and DNI to conduct semiannual assessments of compliance with targeting and minimization procedures. Provides Court jurisdiction for approving the targeting of a U.S. person located outside the United States when the acquisition is conducted within the United States. Allows the AG to authorize an emergency acquisition of such a target in certain circumstances, upon application within seven days for a Court order authorizing the surveillance. Provides similar Court jurisdiction and outlines similar procedures for the acquisition (and emergency acquisition) of a physical search. Authorizes:
(1) joint applications and concurrent approvals of requests for acquisitions proposed to be conducted both inside and outside the United States; and
(2) concurrent authorizations of electronic surveillance and physical searches. Directs the AG to report semiannually to the intelligence and judiciary committees concerning the implementation of information acquisition requirements. States that, other than by express statutory authorization, FISA and the procedures of chapters 119 (Wire and Electronic Communications Interception and Interception of Oral Communications), 121 (Stored Wire and Electronic Communications and Transactional Records Access), and 206 (Pen Registers and Trap and Trace Devices) of the federal criminal code shall be the exclusive means by which electronic surveillance and the interception of domestic wire, oral, or electronic communications may be conducted. Requires the AG to submit semiannually to the intelligence committees copies of any orders of the Court or the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court of Review that include significant construction or interpretation of FISA, including any such orders issued during the five-year period before the enactment of this Act. Requires the AG, after authorizing the installation and use of a pen register or trap and trace device on an emergency basis, to apply to the Court for an authorization order within seven days (current law requires 48 hours) after the emergency installation and use. Authorizes the Court to sit en banc when:
(1) necessary to secure or maintain uniformity of Court decisions; or
(2) the proceeding involves a question of exceptional importance. Authorizes the acquisition of foreign intelligence information from an entity not substantially composed of U.S. persons that is engaged in the international proliferation of weapons of mass destruction. Provides certain protections for entities (including a provider, custodian, or landlord) providing surveillance assistance at the request of the AG or the intelligence community. Requires the review of surveillance actions conducted during the period beginning on September 11, 2001, and ending on January 17, 2007.
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#843934 --- 07/17/08 11:04 PM Re: FISA Unlimited spying.... [Re: Brad ONeill]
Senecamom Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 02/03/06
Posts: 7411
Loc: On a journey......
THE GUTTING OF FISA SAFEGUARDS
For five years, on presidential orders, the National Security Agency has been reading email and tapping phones without a warrant - actions explicitly forbidden by the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978.
Despite this 30-year precedent, Congress and the president colluded in a last-minute Patriot-Act-style vote just before the 2007 summer recess. The resulting legislation lifts longstanding protections between government spying and Americans international communications. Congress' "Police America Act" now gives the NSA a blank check to wiretap Americans without judicial oversight.

I am all for protecting America but the changes made to the original provisions are too much power without checks and balances....that's all
_________________________
~Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing, there is a field. I'll meet you there.~

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#843937 --- 07/17/08 11:14 PM Re: FISA Unlimited spying.... [Re: Senecamom]
Brad ONeill Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/10/08
Posts: 567
Loc: Seneca Falls NY
Originally Posted By: senecamom
I am against the passing of the FISA ACT!


The FISA amendment of 2008 alreadsy did pass. The Protect America Act of 2007 expired in Febuary of 2008 so I dont get why you are talking about it in your first post.

The new bill right now is the 2008 amendment to the FISA law which has already beed passed through the house, senate, and signed into law by the president. It allows for 7 days of unwarranted wiretapping, after that a warrant is required. Before it was passed last week we were allowed only 48 hours according to the previous version on FISA.

I find it funny that you arent even talking about the right bill, lol. You are rallying against the bill from last year that already expired. Way to go, lol. Good demonstration of pure internet, copy and paste activism.

Get you facts straight then come back and try to make your arguement, which judging by this thread you will have a hard time doing.


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