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#818780 --- 05/31/08 01:26 AM Drama queen issues, etc-
almostrelieved Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/16/05
Posts: 999
Loc: Waterloo, NY
Ok we have a 5 year old girl who we've been having trouble with and her behavior. She is such a drama queen and has a smart comment for just about everything you say. When we ask her to go upstairs to take a shower, she has to put up a fuss and then starts the drama. Or when her cousins leave (like they always do after their parent comes to pick them up after they get out of work), she has to start in with, "I'm so bored now. I won't be able to finish the game.", then proceeds to "throw" herself down on the ground and get all dirty. Does anyone have any suggestions as to how to handle/deal with this? This has been going on for over 3 years now and as time goes by, it's getting worse. Would behavioral counseling help? She's our oldest and we just had a baby 6 weeks ago (her little brother). We thought that she was acting this way to get attention but she's been doing this even before the baby came. Ugh! My hubby and I are at wits end and this summer is going to be hell. She's playing kickball thru the local rec and then taking swimming lessons. After that, nothing. Any advice here would be greatly appreciated.

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#818792 --- 05/31/08 04:49 AM Re: Drama queen issues, etc- [Re: almostrelieved]
HeavenlyPlaces Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 02/26/02
Posts: 21990
Loc: Someplace Else
First I have to wonder why you've let it go on for 3 years. That's over 1/2 this child's life at this point and makes it much more difficult to re-train. The time to nip bad behavior in the bud is when it starts. That said, I'd just keep pushing through the drama until she's done whatever it is she's been told (NOT asked - you are the parent after all) to do. For instance, while you're telling her to take a shower you should be calmly and gently moving her body in that direction, using a firm but even tone of voice and ignoring any and all resistence tactics until the task is done. It will take more effort initially but when her dramatics aren't rewarded she'll eventually just stop.
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#818825 --- 05/31/08 05:48 AM Re: Drama queen issues, etc- [Re: HeavenlyPlaces]
sparky's back Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 9386
Loc: At Home..in the kitchen!!
You really have to let them know you're in charge first of all..My son who is 6 gets a time for alot of things..8:30 am he HAS to brush his teeth..8:30 pm he HAS to take a shower..my daughter knows that on Tuesday's she HAS to clean the litterbox. You have to follow through with what you expect from her. I have a 9 month old that I watch..that listens to me when I say NO..he stops whatever he is doing and goes onto something else that he knows he is allowed to do. I have 2 year olds that eat at the table with spoons or forks who's parents say..they won't do it at home..cause they don't make them behave at home..that's why!!!Maybe you could have an activity for you and your daughter to do WHEN the friends/cousins leave..just you and her time.My son and I have cuddle/reading time everyday for just us.My Grand Daughters and I have our gardening time,for just us..I bet if you give her just you and her time and TELL her what she has to do..things will change.
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BBQ..June 27th..be there or be square..
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#818834 --- 05/31/08 05:58 AM Re: Drama queen issues, etc- [Re: sparky's back]
Scottie2Hottie Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 01/27/03
Posts: 16463
Loc: aka Brightside
Watch Nanny 911 or SuperNanny on TV for more tips

The ONLY reason she behaves this way, is because you ALLOW her to act this way. You have to nip it NOW or before you know it your newborn will start acting the same way.. they learn by example if he sees her acting this way and getting away with it... soon enough he will be doing it as well.
My daughter is 14 and my wife can still make her stop dead in her tracks from across the room with just a raised eyebrow. No words, no yelling, no screaming, no hitting,... just "the look"! It is actually rather comical to watch
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#818839 --- 05/31/08 06:02 AM Re: Drama queen issues, etc- [Re: Scottie2Hottie]
sparky's back Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 9386
Loc: At Home..in the kitchen!!
LOL..yup..I have the "LOOK" too!!!
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BBQ..June 27th..be there or be square..
Bring something for The House of Concern please!












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#818845 --- 05/31/08 06:08 AM Re: Drama queen issues, etc- [Re: sparky's back]
Scottie2Hottie Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 01/27/03
Posts: 16463
Loc: aka Brightside
LOL it's great! Holly learned "the Look" from her Mother.... My wife is going to be 34 this year and her mother's "look" still works too!
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No Mullet...NO Glory!!

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#818849 --- 05/31/08 06:18 AM Re: Drama queen issues, etc- [Re: sparky's back]
Where's the love Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/16/04
Posts: 5841
Loc: Tahiti - I can dream...
I had these same issues when my daughter was 10 yrs old. She wanted attention. (she's 14 now - and really wants me to leave her alone now - but too late, she drove me crazy at 10 and I'm gonna pay her back at 14!)
Her behavior is all based on YOU. Surprisingly, she has the behavior problem but you are to blame (doesn't seem quite fair, right?) When it comes time for her cousins to leave, start an activity with her ... 5:30pm is 15 minutes of snuggle time, take a walk with Mom, or helping to stir whats cooking on the stove. Anything YOU can do with her that you make fun. Something that makes her look forward to her cousins leaving. You don't have to do more than 15 minutes because kids don't have long attention spans! Follow it up with allowing something creative with Dad in the evening for 15 minutes. Giving an extra hug and positive feedback helps. Hold your tongue and don't ever tell her "not now" or "I'm busy with the baby". Just say, "that sounds like fun".
Train yourself first and your kids will ease into this. Kids learn faster than us adults!
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Nope...more like borrowing the bull, but not having to put up with the "manure"

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#818855 --- 05/31/08 06:29 AM Re: Drama queen issues, etc- [Re: Where's the love]
Where's the love Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/16/04
Posts: 5841
Loc: Tahiti - I can dream...
When I do get irratated by my kids behavior, I change their names and call them Julia (Roberts) and Sandra (Bullock) - because they act like drama queens. One will have the tiniest scratch and insists she is bleeding to death, I say it only works if you put the back of your hand to your forehead and sway a little, that way I know your going to faint. The last time I laid her on the couch, grabbed toilet paper and duct tape and made this monstrous bandage for a tiny scrape and I tell them how I saw this done on TV.
My kids rarely bug me about this stuff anymore. I think I'm going to get paid back one day by living in a nursing home...the county or state run one!
_________________________
Nope...more like borrowing the bull, but not having to put up with the "manure"

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#818929 --- 05/31/08 09:36 AM Re: Drama queen issues, etc- [Re: Where's the love]
goingcrazyinny Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 02/05/05
Posts: 1632
Loc: NY
Unfortunatley, I have to agree that her drama is your own fault. It can be a result of not being firm enough, and her being used to you being home with her alone for so many years. She got things on demand, and your undivided attention for years, and now acts out to try to compete for attention.
Don't let her get away with being mouthy when it really matters (like when told to get ready for bed), take away privledges like treats or time on the swingset or watching tv. But the rest of the time, Ignore her. Choose your battles.
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***Mean People Suck & So Do Stereoytpes***

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#819015 --- 05/31/08 11:37 AM Re: Drama queen issues, etc- [Re: Where's the love]
The Brain Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/08/06
Posts: 3457
Loc: Looking to deport Rappers.
Originally Posted By: Where's the love
The last time I laid her on the couch, grabbed toilet paper and duct tape and made this monstrous bandage for a tiny scrape and I tell them how I saw this done on TV.


Well done. This made me chuckle.
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Be careful what you wish for. If that was the case, you'd be deported. - threeputt

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#819048 --- 05/31/08 12:41 PM Re: Drama queen issues, etc- [Re: The Brain]
almostrelieved Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/16/05
Posts: 999
Loc: Waterloo, NY
Thanks everyone but we've tried EVERYTHING that you've suggested. We've tried ignoring her, taking away privileges, being firm with her (this really doesn't work since she either mouths back or says a smart comment or starts arguing with you)...we thought she was doing this to get any kind of attention but seems like she just is like this. We've tried spending more time with her (reading books, etc) but once again, we suggest something to her or correct her for something and she starts in. No matter what we do, she starts in. We've even thought of returning her to counseling but not sure even if that will help. We thought by enrolling her into kickball and swim lessons would help (but that only takes an hour out of the day). She keeps asking to have either friends/family come over or go over to their houses. Another words, she can't wait until her brother gets big enough to play with. She wants to play with someone NOW! We've tried being "the boss" but it doesn't work. I wish I could just give her "the look" and get a response from her. Some day...thanks again everyone.

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#819097 --- 05/31/08 03:16 PM Re: Drama queen issues, etc- [Re: almostrelieved]
Where's the love Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/16/04
Posts: 5841
Loc: Tahiti - I can dream...
stop and think about this. If this was you...you get yelled at, ignored, had your stuff taken away...what would be your first impulse? Probably the snotty comeback remark, right? Your daughter is acting rationally. We all do it as adults. Electric bill comes, its $900 and no matter how little you pay, the threat is there that they will come and turn it off. How do we respond? We blame the electric company, we go off how they are ripping us off...blah blah blah, right? Your child is normal. She doesn't need therapy. As a parent, we need a book to go to for behavior issues, turn to page 152, paragraph 6. Wish it was that easy. Your daughter is bored. She likes to be stimulated with playmates and fun times. It's time to tap into the positive sides of her behavior and reward her for the good stuff; not punish her for the bad. Punishing her for the bad is just your knee jerk reaction to her mouthiness. Politely tell her, those are not nice words and are not appreciated in this house. When you can talk politely we can talk. In the meantime, please sit quietly until you can apologize and we can have a nice conversation. Training yourself not to react to the negative is hard! Your childs behavior centers around YOU.
_________________________
Nope...more like borrowing the bull, but not having to put up with the "manure"

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#819098 --- 05/31/08 03:16 PM Re: Drama queen issues, etc- [Re: almostrelieved]
Where's the love Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/16/04
Posts: 5841
Loc: Tahiti - I can dream...
stop and think about this. If this was you...you get yelled at, ignored, had your stuff taken away...what would be your first impulse? Probably the snotty comeback remark, right? Your daughter is acting rationally. We all do it as adults. Electric bill comes, its $900 and no matter how little you pay, the threat is there that they will come and turn it off. How do we respond? We blame the electric company, we go off how they are ripping us off...blah blah blah, right? Your child is normal. She doesn't need therapy. As a parent, we need a book to go to for behavior issues, turn to page 152, paragraph 6. Wish it was that easy. Your daughter is bored. She likes to be stimulated with playmates and fun times. It's time to tap into the positive sides of her behavior and reward her for the good stuff; not punish her for the bad. Punishing her for the bad is just your knee jerk reaction to her mouthiness. Politely tell her, those are not nice words and are not appreciated in this house. When you can talk politely we can talk. In the meantime, please sit quietly until you can apologize and we can have a nice conversation. Training yourself not to react to the negative is hard! Your childs behavior centers around YOU.
_________________________
Nope...more like borrowing the bull, but not having to put up with the "manure"

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#819142 --- 05/31/08 06:45 PM Re: Drama queen issues, etc- [Re: Where's the love]
sparky's back Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 9386
Loc: At Home..in the kitchen!!
We focus on "choices"..and how there are good and bad ones..I also use re-direction,with the smaller ones. They get 3 strikes..which never gets past one with my son..he has to explain his actions in his own words,then we talk about what happened and what the better choices would have been. I am very lucky that he is very well behaved..for now.
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BBQ..June 27th..be there or be square..
Bring something for The House of Concern please!












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#819310 --- 06/01/08 06:27 AM Re: Drama queen issues, etc- [Re: sparky's back]
Stella Offline
Member

Registered: 06/01/08
Posts: 295
Loc: NY,Seneca County
Aren't you just mother of the year. As far as the posters problem it is HER fault she has been raising a little brat and once they hit the age of 3 you pretty much can not re train them,good luck.
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whiners and haters gotta love 'em

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#819334 --- 06/01/08 07:59 AM Re: Drama queen issues, etc- [Re: Stella]
Where's the love Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/16/04
Posts: 5841
Loc: Tahiti - I can dream...
WRONG! Kids are meant to learn. They are trainable. Adults are too. Patience. Time.
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Nope...more like borrowing the bull, but not having to put up with the "manure"

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#819609 --- 06/01/08 08:04 PM Re: Drama queen issues, etc- [Re: Stella]
Yetta Nother Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 12/26/06
Posts: 17682
Loc: Sunny and warm
Originally Posted By: Stella
Aren't you just mother of the year. As far as the posters problem it is HER fault she has been raising a little brat and once they hit the age of 3 you pretty much can not re train them,good luck.


Wow. Registered for a day and already your such a nice person. First off....Sparky has had 7 kids...plenty of grandchildren....oh and runs a full daycare. I would say my personal opinion that she handles everything pretty well and if I had to vote I would damn sure vote her mother of the year. She has the patience of a Saint....so stick that in your 2nd day of posting!

Oh and my advice for this situation....send your 5 year old to Sparkys house for a week.....when she comes home...the bahavior will be gone. I'll almost bet money on it. Hi Sparky......I missed you while I was away. \:D
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Never go to a doctor whose office plants have died...

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#819657 --- 06/01/08 10:30 PM Re: Drama queen issues, etc- [Re: Yetta Nother]
past tense Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 03/05/03
Posts: 29711
Loc: Houston, TX
I always cringe when a parent comes on here and starts a thread like this because responses like Stella's are inevitable.

No one - NO ONE - is more judgemental than another parent about how others parent their kids.

#2138739017389017 on the list of reasons I love being childless.
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#819663 --- 06/01/08 10:49 PM Re: Drama queen issues, etc- [Re: Stella]
VM Smith Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 11/28/05
Posts: 38160
Loc: Ship of Fools
Originally Posted By: Stella
Aren't you just mother of the year. As far as the posters problem it is HER fault she has been raising a little brat and once they hit the age of 3 you pretty much can not re train them,good luck.


Judging by your understanding, sensitive response, your solution would most likely be to taser both the mother and child. Did I guess wrong? Have I misjudged your attitude?
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If you vote for government, you have no right to complain about what government does.

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#819696 --- 06/02/08 04:15 AM Re: Drama queen issues, etc- [Re: Yetta Nother]
sparky's back Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 9386
Loc: At Home..in the kitchen!!
Originally Posted By: Yetta Nother
Originally Posted By: Stella
Aren't you just mother of the year. As far as the posters problem it is HER fault she has been raising a little brat and once they hit the age of 3 you pretty much can not re train them,good luck.


Wow. Registered for a day and already your such a nice person. First off....Sparky has had 7 kids...plenty of grandchildren....oh and runs a full daycare. I would say my personal opinion that she handles everything pretty well and if I had to vote I would damn sure vote her mother of the year. She has the patience of a Saint....so stick that in your 2nd day of posting!

Oh and my advice for this situation....send your 5 year old to Sparkys house for a week.....when she comes home...the bahavior will be gone. I'll almost bet money on it. Hi Sparky......I missed you while I was away. \:D



I missed you too baby!!..(Thanks for the back up here)
I am NOT Mother of the year.. unless you ask one of my kids ...I was sharing what works for me..which with my Max I rarely have to use cause he IS well mannered and behaved..ask anyone that knows him. \:\)
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BBQ..June 27th..be there or be square..
Bring something for The House of Concern please!












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#819711 --- 06/02/08 04:42 AM Re: Drama queen issues, etc- [Re: past tense]
sparky's back Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 9386
Loc: At Home..in the kitchen!!
Originally Posted By: past tense
I always cringe when a parent comes on here and starts a thread like this because responses like Stella's are inevitable.

No one - NO ONE - is more judgemental than another parent about how others parent their kids.

#2138739017389017 on the list of reasons I love being childless.


awww come on..you guys would make great parents ;\)
_________________________
BBQ..June 27th..be there or be square..
Bring something for The House of Concern please!












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#819728 --- 06/02/08 05:19 AM Re: Drama queen issues, etc- [Re: past tense]
Scottie2Hottie Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 01/27/03
Posts: 16463
Loc: aka Brightside
Originally Posted By: past tense
I always cringe when a parent comes on here and starts a thread like this because responses like Stella's are inevitable.

No one - NO ONE - is more judgemental than another parent about how others parent their kids.

#2138739017389017 on the list of reasons I love being childless.


I agree! My EX girlfriend had a daughter like that ... that is why she is my EX! I do have a step daughter .... but she is GREAT.... if she wasn't we would of NEVER gotten married!
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No Mullet...NO Glory!!

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#819808 --- 06/02/08 07:48 AM Re: Drama queen issues, etc- [Re: past tense]
Yetta Nother Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 12/26/06
Posts: 17682
Loc: Sunny and warm
Originally Posted By: past tense
I always cringe when a parent comes on here and starts a thread like this because responses like Stella's are inevitable.

No one - NO ONE - is more judgemental than another parent about how others parent their kids.

#2138739017389017 on the list of reasons I love being childless.



Its probably just as well sometimes. It's scarey raising kids in the world.
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Never go to a doctor whose office plants have died...

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#819811 --- 06/02/08 07:57 AM Re: Drama queen issues, etc- [Re: Yetta Nother]
Yetta Nother Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 12/26/06
Posts: 17682
Loc: Sunny and warm
I must say....my kids are great. They are both beautiful people....inside and out. I just came back from visiting both of them and I am prouder of them then I have ever been. They were great little people and are wonderful adults. Anyone that comes in contact with them knows that they were raised well. They are not perfect....but they are mine.....and my weekend was the best weekend I have had in a long time. They both work.....they both have nice apartments. Life is good.....as long as my daughter doesn't call me to move her again. Ugh.

AR......Your child is crying for attention in my opinion. Punishment is not the answer here. Filling her void and using the rest of the family to be invloved is what I think you should do. We all parent different......but I do know that positive reinforcement works better than negative. If she is bored.....hand her a rag with some dust polish on it and let her go to town. Tell her that when she finishes dusting that you will sit down with her and eat some ice cream with her. Give her a hug and kiss on the forehead and tell her that she did a wonderful job. It will give her something to look forward to the next time she acts out or is bored.
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Never go to a doctor whose office plants have died...

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#819979 --- 06/02/08 02:52 PM Re: Drama queen issues, etc- [Re: Yetta Nother]
Scottie2Hottie Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 01/27/03
Posts: 16463
Loc: aka Brightside
I agree yetta....with a lot of kids NEGATIVE attention is better than NO attention at all... and I am sure in the last 6 months since the new baby was born the neagative behavior has intensified
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No Mullet...NO Glory!!

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#820047 --- 06/02/08 05:24 PM Re: Drama queen issues, etc- [Re: Scottie2Hottie]
Yetta Nother Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 12/26/06
Posts: 17682
Loc: Sunny and warm
Another child seems to always bring this kind of behavior. I mean seriously....my kids were only 9 months and 3 weeks apart in age.....when I had my kids the only one affected was the dog....he was jealous over the kids and starting acting out. Even a dog has this behavior over change. The baby now gets most of the attention and you have to make sure that you still spend quality time with the other siblings. New moms are tired. They sometimes don't have the energy to actually spend quality time and most of the time expect the child to entertain themselves.....this is where the boredum part comes in. They don't like to entertain themselves. they want you to entertain them. My kids loved to help clean the house so that always kept them busy and the house always got cleaned.
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Never go to a doctor whose office plants have died...

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#820219 --- 06/03/08 02:12 AM Re: Drama queen issues, etc- [Re: Yetta Nother]
almostrelieved Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/16/05
Posts: 999
Loc: Waterloo, NY
Thanks again for everyone's input. Like I said, we've tried everything-positive reinforcement, reverse psychology...you should hear her on the phone though-she does have great phone etiquette. Things have been better. Just any 5 year old, she does has her moments. Hopefully as the baby gets older, she will grow out of this stage. Then she'll have someone to play with. Thanks again!

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#820248 --- 06/03/08 05:57 AM Re: Drama queen issues, etc- [Re: almostrelieved]
Where's the love Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/16/04
Posts: 5841
Loc: Tahiti - I can dream...
Hate to dump on you...but, once you get this under control - then you have to deal with PMS and the blessed monthly CURSE. LOL. It only gets better (i'm hoping) when she meets prince charming and you run for the hills! (or a 1 bedroom condo in a senior citizen development where no kids are allowed!) ;\)
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Nope...more like borrowing the bull, but not having to put up with the "manure"

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#820267 --- 06/03/08 06:40 AM Re: Drama queen issues, etc- [Re: Where's the love]
Yetta Nother Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 12/26/06
Posts: 17682
Loc: Sunny and warm
Wait till she is 14-15.
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Never go to a doctor whose office plants have died...

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#820485 --- 06/03/08 02:13 PM Re: Drama queen issues, etc- [Re: Where's the love]
almostrelieved Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/16/05
Posts: 999
Loc: Waterloo, NY
I think she already has PMS-she loves chocolate. I'm hoping she's not like me in that she's more regular (unlike me who really don't have a monthly and had to go thru fertility treatments to get pregnant) yet I'm hoping she is then we don't have to deal with her moodiness.

Yetta-you should hear her talk about becoming a teenager already...UGH! Not looking forward to that at all. Hopefully by then she won't be like this and will have learned that throwing tantrums and acting the way she did won't get her any place. I'm dreading her wanting a cell phone by then too (if not sooner-NO!).

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#820804 --- 06/04/08 05:51 AM Re: Drama queen issues, etc- [Re: almostrelieved]
Scottie2Hottie Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 01/27/03
Posts: 16463
Loc: aka Brightside
Originally Posted By: almostrelieved
Thanks again for everyone's input. Like I said, we've tried everything-positive reinforcement, reverse psychology...you should hear her on the phone though-she does have great phone etiquette. Things have been better. Just any 5 year old, she does has her moments. Hopefully as the baby gets older, she will grow out of this stage. Then she'll have someone to play with. Thanks again!


I am afraid to say that your dreams of a miracle cure after your son is old enough to play with her is far fetched...it will only get worse... she will start having tantrums because she doesn't want to share, or the baby took all the good toys, etc. etc. etc. My niece is 5 and she isn't allowed to have the *tantrum moments* come to think about it...none of my nieces and nephews acted that way...if they did I would of avoided their house like the plague, and I wouldn't have volunteered to babysit like I did for them.
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No Mullet...NO Glory!!

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#821540 --- 06/05/08 05:35 AM Re: Drama queen issues, etc- [Re: Scottie2Hottie]
Where's the love Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/16/04
Posts: 5841
Loc: Tahiti - I can dream...
don't stop trying. it takes a long time to change your habits; like dieting, nothing happens overnight. by the way, don't reward with food, store bought items, or events. Just use praise! (for a while I thought I was going to go to the poor house for rewarding my daughter with trips to the MALL!!)
_________________________
Nope...more like borrowing the bull, but not having to put up with the "manure"

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#821567 --- 06/05/08 06:16 AM Re: Drama queen issues, etc- [Re: almostrelieved]
Yetta Nother Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 12/26/06
Posts: 17682
Loc: Sunny and warm
Originally Posted By: almostrelieved
I think she already has PMS-she loves chocolate. I'm hoping she's not like me in that she's more regular (unlike me who really don't have a monthly and had to go thru fertility treatments to get pregnant) yet I'm hoping she is then we don't have to deal with her moodiness.

Yetta-you should hear her talk about becoming a teenager already...UGH! Not looking forward to that at all. Hopefully by then she won't be like this and will have learned that throwing tantrums and acting the way she did won't get her any place. I'm dreading her wanting a cell phone by then too (if not sooner-NO!).



As long as you don't give her her way when she acts like that....then you are still in control. \:\)
_________________________
Never go to a doctor whose office plants have died...

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#821693 --- 06/05/08 11:07 AM Re: Drama queen issues, etc- [Re: Yetta Nother]
almostrelieved Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/16/05
Posts: 999
Loc: Waterloo, NY
Update: Things are getting better. Since it's getting warmer out, she's been wanting to play outside a lot more. Hopefully this will tire her out so she can sleep better. I think that was part of her problem-not getting enough sleep (especially since her room is right next door to her baby brother's and at times he wakes her up early in the am, like around 5 or 6 which is way too early for her-and me too). Thanks again for everyone's input. I'm sure as she gets older she will change. We (my hubby and I) tell her all the time who's boss and that doesn't even help. Like I said things are a bit better.

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#823335 --- 06/08/08 07:55 PM Re: Drama queen issues, etc- [Re: almostrelieved]
MAKOLLIG JEZVAHTED Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/17/00
Posts: 4467
Loc: Five Points C25, upon return c...
a 5 year old DRAMA queen...better take care of it now, or forever be sorry you didn't

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#823381 --- 06/08/08 08:51 PM Re: Drama queen issues, etc- [Re: almostrelieved]
VM Smith Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 11/28/05
Posts: 38160
Loc: Ship of Fools
" Since it's getting warmer out, she's been wanting to play outside a lot more."

Yeah, now you can keep her on a leash in the yard.

"Hopefully this will tire her out so she can sleep better."

Have you considered making her run behind the car when you go places?
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#823423 --- 06/09/08 01:09 AM Re: Drama queen issues, etc- [Re: VM Smith]
almostrelieved Offline
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Registered: 06/16/05
Posts: 999
Loc: Waterloo, NY
Oh stop it! I wouldn't do this to anyone, especially in this heat.

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#823428 --- 06/09/08 03:21 AM Re: Drama queen issues, etc- [Re: almostrelieved]
VM Smith Offline
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Registered: 11/28/05
Posts: 38160
Loc: Ship of Fools
LOL! I guess my hope of starting an advice column was just a foolish dream.
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#823581 --- 06/09/08 09:44 AM Re: Drama queen issues, etc- [Re: VM Smith]
Yetta Nother Offline
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Registered: 12/26/06
Posts: 17682
Loc: Sunny and warm
Originally Posted By: VM Smith
" Since it's getting warmer out, she's been wanting to play outside a lot more."

Yeah, now you can keep her on a leash in the yard.

"Hopefully this will tire her out so she can sleep better."

Have you considered making her run behind the car when you go places?


LMAO. Now VM.....this was priceless on a Monday morning.
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#823603 --- 06/09/08 10:46 AM Re: Drama queen issues, etc- [Re: VM Smith]
The Brain Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/08/06
Posts: 3457
Loc: Looking to deport Rappers.
Originally Posted By: VM Smith
Have you considered making her run behind the car when you go places?


Poor little guy. Must have kept up with you for a mile or so.
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#823643 --- 06/09/08 11:43 AM Re: Drama queen issues, etc- [Re: The Brain]
almostrelieved Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/16/05
Posts: 999
Loc: Waterloo, NY
"Poor little guy."

Guy? Guess you didn't pay attention to which gender this thread was about. And no, I didn't do this either. AND it's not funny! Darn right cruel!

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#823653 --- 06/09/08 12:36 PM Re: Drama queen issues, etc- [Re: almostrelieved]
The Brain Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/08/06
Posts: 3457
Loc: Looking to deport Rappers.
It was a movie quote. In reference to what VM posted.

Regarding your little bundle of joy, I DO have some serious recommendations. They may have been mentioned before, but I don't care, here they are, in no particular order.

Stop making excuses.

Stop using Disney to watch and educate your child.

Ask yourself why your child acts this way when their parent has the wherewithal to ask for help on a public forum.

The longer you tolerate incorrect behavior, the more it persists.

There is no debate, there is no discussion, you are the adult, take charge.
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Be careful what you wish for. If that was the case, you'd be deported. - threeputt

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#823686 --- 06/09/08 01:58 PM Re: Drama queen issues, etc- [Re: The Brain]
Scottie2Hottie Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 01/27/03
Posts: 16463
Loc: aka Brightside
Originally Posted By: The Brain
It was a movie quote. In reference to what VM posted.

Regarding your little bundle of joy, I DO have some serious recommendations. They may have been mentioned before, but I don't care, here they are, in no particular order.

Stop making excuses.

Stop using Disney to watch and educate your child.

Ask yourself why your child acts this way when their parent has the wherewithal to ask for help on a public forum.

The longer you tolerate incorrect behavior, the more it persists.

There is no debate, there is no discussion, you are the adult, take charge.


Great movie and funny quote

What's funny yet sad is when I was 17 on a family trip to Colorado when my grandmother died next to me.... for month's every called me "Rusty"
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#823716 --- 06/09/08 02:48 PM Re: Drama queen issues, etc- [Re: Scottie2Hottie]
The Brain Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/08/06
Posts: 3457
Loc: Looking to deport Rappers.
Consider it done, Rusty.
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Be careful what you wish for. If that was the case, you'd be deported. - threeputt

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#823717 --- 06/09/08 02:53 PM Re: Drama queen issues, etc- [Re: The Brain]
VM Smith Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 11/28/05
Posts: 38160
Loc: Ship of Fools
I was trying to keep my tongue in my cheek, to use a little humor, and not to administer too hard a judgemental slap to almost relieved, but you say it well, and your approach may be best.

Succinctly, almostrelieved: I wouldn't put up with the child's crap for ONE second.

For instance, if she told me she was bored, I'd say, "Well dear, why don't you try banging your head against the wall for a wHile; that'll take your mind off your boredom. Now, if you'll excuse me, dear, I've got housework to do, even though I'd rather be doing ANYTHING else; being your constant servant isn't an easy job, you should realize.".
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#823724 --- 06/09/08 03:05 PM Re: Drama queen issues, etc- [Re: VM Smith]
VM Smith Offline
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Registered: 11/28/05
Posts: 38160
Loc: Ship of Fools
I've long thought that something has gone awry with the way we raise children nowadays, almostrelieved, and this article explains what I think it is as well as anything I've seen; there's some good advice herein; maybe you'll let it help you. I found it in "Arts and Letters Daily"; it's from "Weekly Standard":



The Kindergarchy
Every child a dauphin.
by Joseph Epstein
06/09/2008, Volume 013, Issue 37


In America we are currently living in a Kindergarchy, under rule by children. People who are raising, or have recently raised, or have even been around children a fair amount in recent years will, I think, immediately sense what I have in mind. Children have gone from background to foreground figures in domestic life, with more and more attention centered on them, their upbringing, their small accomplishments, their right relationship with parents and grandparents. For the past 30 years at least, we have been lavishing vast expense and anxiety on our children in ways that are unprecedented in American and in perhaps any other national life. Such has been the weight of all this concern about children that it has exercised a subtle but pervasive tyranny of its own. This is what I call Kindergarchy: dreary, boring, sadly misguided Kindergarchy.

With its full-court-press attention on children, the Kindergarchy is a radical departure from the ways parents and children viewed one another in earlier days. Ten or so years ago I began to notice that a large number of people born around the late 1930s and through the 1940s had, as I do, a brother or sister five or six years younger or older than they. So often was this the case that I began to wonder if there wasn't some pattern here that I had hitherto missed? Then it occurred to me that mothers in those days decided not to have a second child until their first child, at five or six, had gone off to school.

Born into the middle class in the Middle West, growing up I did not know any married woman who worked. So the mothers I am talking about here did not put a five- or six-year separation between the birth of their kids for economic reasons, or because it gave them more time to devote to their first-born children, or any other reason I can think of other than their own damn convenience. They did it because--insensitive, selfish, appalling really to contemplate--it was easier not to have two children under four years old to worry about at once; it made more sense to them not to have to deal with two or more needy greedy little children simultaneously. Let one go off to school, then we shall think of having another--much easier for everyone all around. Or so I believe thinking on the matter went.

Did this arrangement make sense for the children? Five or six years' age difference between siblings is probably not an ideal difference for the development of closeness between brothers and sisters. When my younger brother entered boyhood, at eight or nine, I was already in high school; when he was in high school, I was away at college; and when he was in college, I was a married man with a son of my own. No, a five- or six-year separation is doubtless not the best spacing between two kids growing up in the same household. If you had confronted my mother and father with this psychological datum, they might have said, "Interesting." But I doubt that they would have found it very interesting at all.

Let me quickly insert that I had the excellent luck of having good parents. Neither was in the least neurotic, both were fair to my brother and me, neither of us ever doubted the love of either of them. I can also say with no hesitation that my parents' two sons were never for a moment at the center of their lives. The action in their lives was elsewhere than in childraising.

In my father's case the action was at his business--"the place," as he sometimes called it. A small businessman, he came most alive when at work. Without hobbies or outside interests, he worked a five-and-a-half day week, and didn't in the least mind if he had an excuse to drop in for a few hours on occasional Sundays.

My mother, who was not in any way a trivial person as the following details might make her seem, played cards at least three afternoons a week. She kept up a fairly brisk social round. She was at home to provide us lunch when my brother and I were in grammar school, and she cooked substantial dinners, baked, and was a careful housekeeper. Later she took an interest in charities and paid for and helped organize occasional fundraising luncheons. When her children were grown, she went to work in her husband's business as a secretary-bookkeeper-credit-manager, at all of which she did a first-class job.

When I was a boy my parents might go off to New York or to Montreal (my father was born in Canada) for a week or so and leave my brother and me in the care of a woman in the neighborhood, a spinster named Charlotte Smucker--Mrs. Smucker to us--who was a professional childsitter. Sometimes an aunt, my mother's sister who had no children, would stay with us. We seldom went on vacation as a family. When I was eight years old, my parents sent me off for an eight-week summer camp session in Eagle River, Wisconsin, where I learned all the dirty words if not their precise meanings. None of these things made me unhappy or in any way dampened my spirits. I cannot recall ever thinking of myself as an unhappy kid.

My mother never read to me, and my father took me to no ballgames, though we did go to Golden Gloves fights a few times. When I began my modest athletic career, my parents never came to any of my games, and I should have been embarrassed had they done so. My parents never met any of my girlfriends in high school. No photographic or video record exists of my uneven progress through early life. My father never explained about the birds and the bees to me; his entire advice on sex, as I clearly remember, was, "You want to be careful."

I don't recall many stretches of boredom in my boyhood. Life was lived among friends on the block and, later, during games on the playground. Winter afternoons after school were filled up by "Jack Armstrong," "Captain Midnight," and other radio programs for kids. Boredom, really, wasn't an option. I recall only once telling my mother that I was bored. "Oh," she said, a furtive smile on her lips, "why don't you bang your head against the wall. That'll take your mind off your boredom." I never mentioned boredom again.

After the age of ten, I made every decision about my education on my own. The one I didn't make, at ten, was to go to Hebrew school in order to be bar-mitzvahed; this was a decision made for me and was nonnegotiable. But my parents felt no need to advise me on what foreign language to take in high school, where I ought to go to college--though my father paid every penny of my tuition and expenses--or what I ought to study once there. That I was a thoroughly mediocre student seemed not much to bother them. Neither of my parents had gone to college, and my father never finished high school, moving to the United States and going off on his own at 17, and so they did not put great value in doing well at school.

At roughly the age of 11, I had the run of the city of Chicago, taking buses, streetcars, or the El with friends to Wrigley Field, downtown, or to nearby neighborhoods for Saturday afternoon movies. Beginning at 15, the age when driver's licenses were then issued in Chicago, I had frequent use of my mother's cream-and-green Chevy Bel-Air, which greatly expanded my freedom. I don't recall either of my parents asking me where I had been, or with whom, even when I came in at early morning hours on the weekends.

When we were together, at family meals and at other times, we laughed a lot, my parents, my brother, and I, but we did not openly exhibit exuberant affection for one another. We did not hug, and I do not remember often kissing my mother or her kissing me. Neither my mother nor my father ever told me they loved me; nor did I tell them that I loved them. I always assumed their love, and, as later years would prove, when they came to my aid in small crises, I was not wrong to do so.

I did not seek my parents' approval. All I wished was to avoid their--and particularly my father's--disapproval, which would have cut into my freedom. Avoiding disapproval meant staying out of trouble, which for the most part I was able to do. Punishment would have meant losing the use of my mother's car, or having my allowance reduced, or being made to stay home on school or weekend nights, and I cannot remember any of these things ever happening, a testament less to my adolescent virtue than to the generous slack my parents cut me.

The older I become the more grateful I am to my parents for staying off my case. Yet they were not unusual in this. Most of the parents of my contemporaries acted much the same, which is why very little anger or animus on the part of my friends against their parents was in evidence. Some parents were more generous to their kids than others, a few mothers showed anxiety about their sons and daughters, but no parents that I knew of seemed oppressive enough to give cause for feelings of revolt on the part of their children. Free and almost wildly uncontrolled though it may seem today, my upbringing was quite normal for middle-class boys of my generation.

I don't for a moment mean to suggest that such an upbringing produced a superior generation of adults. What it produced was another group of people who later spent their lives going about the world's business, with no strong grudges against their parents or anger at such abstract enemies as The System. All I would claim is that to be free from so much parental supervision seemed a nice way to grow up, and it surely resulted in a lot less wear and tear on everyone all round.

Parents generally didn't feel under any obligation to put heavy pressure on their children. Nor, except in odd, neurotic cases, did they feel any need to micromanage their lives. My own father once told me that he felt his responsibilities extended to caring for the physical well-being of my brother and me, paying for our education, teaching us right from wrong, and giving us some general idea about how a man ought to live, but that was pretty much it. Most fathers during this time, my guess is, must have felt the same.

A single generation later, I have to confess, I didn't--at least, not quite. I tried to bring up my two sons on the model on which I had been brought up, but I was unable to bring it off very successfully. My own confidence in my doing the right thing as a parent was considerably less than that of my own parents. I was always telling my two sons how much I loved them. I told them this so often that I should imagine they must have begun to doubt that I had any real feeling for them whatsoever.

The time was the 1960s and early 1970s. The culture was beginning to change radically. Lots of marriages were falling apart, my own among them. (After divorce, I had custody of my sons, who were then eight and six.) Drugs seemed to be everywhere. Crime was getting a lot more press. The rise of political hippyism followed by feminism, itself in part a reaction to the male dominance of the political movement of the Sixties, brought on a strong contempt for the middle class, and what was thought its stolid ways and left a wide swath for anyone who wished to make a jolly damn fool of him- or herself, which lots of people did. The business of therapy appeared to be picking up; more and more people seemed to be undergoing it, and its assumptions became more deeply ingrained in middle-class life.

One of the direct results of the 1960s was that the culture put a new premium on youthfulness; adulthood, as it had hitherto been perceived, was on the way out, beginning with clothes and ending with personal conduct. Everyone, even people with children and other adult responsibilities, wanted to continue to think of himself as still young, often well into his 40s and 50s. One of the consequences of this was that one shied away from the old parental role of authority figure, dealing out rewards and punishments and passing on knowledge, somewhat distant, carefully rationing out intimacy, establishing one's solidity and strength. Suddenly parents wanted their children to think of them as, if not exactly contemporaries, then as friends, pals, fun people. Parents of my own parents' generation may have been more or less kind, generous, humorous, warm, but, however attractive, they never thought of themselves as their children's friends. When your son becomes a man (or your daughter a woman), make him (or her) your brother (or sister), an old Arab proverb has it. But it's probably a serious mistake to make a kid of 9 or 14 your brother or sister.

Childrearing became a highly self-conscious activity, in all of its facets. Husbands were now called in not merely to help out with childrearing but in actual childbirth. They went to Lamaze classes with their wives; there they were, not infrequently videocam in hand, in the delivery room cheerleading and rehearsing breathing exercises with their laboring wives. Pregnant women were advised not to smoke, not to drink, not to do a great many other things that generations of expectant mothers had always done, lest their children pay the price in ill-health, if not actual birth defects.

A child being the most dear of all possessions, instructions--maintenance manuals, really--for his or her early upbringing were everywhere. Pacific mobiles swayed gently over cribs, nursery rooms were designed with the kind of care devoted to the direct descendants of the Sun King--and why not, for every child suddenly became his or her own dauphin or dauphine. In the background the music of Mozart--so good, parents were told, for heightening the intelligence quotient--played on at just the right volume. Impossible to be too careful about these matters, when so much was at stake.

"Children are best seen not heard," was a maxim once in frequent use. "Speak only when spoken to," was another piece of advice regularly issued to children. Now kids are encouraged to come forth, as soon and as frequently as they wish, to demonstrate their brightness, cuteness, creativity. A few years ago, I found it noteworthy (and still memorable) that when on the phone with an editor I was dealing with--he was working at home at the time--he said to his daughter, "Faith, don't disturb Daddy right now. He's working." Most people today would have put one on hold or offered to call back later. Kids, after all, come first.

On visits to the homes of friends with small children, one finds their toys strewn everywhere, their drawings on the refrigerator, television sets turned to their shows. Parents in this context seem less than secondary, little more than indentured servants. Under the Kindergarchy, all arrangements are centered on children: their schooling, their lessons, their predilections, their care and feeding and general high maintenance--children are the name of the game.

No other generations of kids have been so curried and cultivated, so pampered and primed, though primed for what exactly is a bit unclear. Children are given a voice in lots of decisions formerly not up for their consideration. "If it's your child, not you, who gets to choose your weekend brunch spot," writes David Hochman in the magazine Details, "or if he's the one asking how the branzino is prepared, it's probably time to take a hard look at your own behavior."

Where once childrearing was an activity conducted largely by instinct and common sense, today it takes its lead from self-appointed experts whose thinking is informed by pop psychology. Here, for example, is a blogger calling herself Millennium Mom on the subject of punishment. On spanking, Millennium Mom's view--quoting from an article posted on the iVillage website--is that:

spanking may give children a clear message about the unacceptability of their behavior and sometimes stops the behavior in the short run. However, in the long run, it teaches children that it is all right to hit, and that it is all right to be hit. Even children are confused by the irony of the statement, "This spanking will teach you not to hit your brother."

On the subject of "time-outs"--those enforced recesses when children are asked to go off to contemplate their bad behavior--Millennium Mom notes:

the problem with time-outs is that they take a child away from a valuable learning experience. A child who hits another child can begin to learn empathy from watching the other child's response to being hurt, and if he stays around, he may also be able to participate in helping the other child feel better.

Bountiful is your heart, Millennium Mom; it is only your insight into human nature that is troubling.

The relentless cultural enrichment of children under Kindergarchy is not an option; it will be seen to, whatever the toll in time or money. At a minimum, visits must be made to Disneyland, the Epcot Center, national parks, children's museums, youth concerts, every new movie designed for the children's market. Various lessons--ballet, tennis, guitar, more--must be contracted, with mom or dad driving the kids to them and picking them up afterwards. ("Parenting," that dreary neologism, has given the old role of parent the status of a job, and no part-time one, either.) Each child must have a vast arsenal of toys, with emphasis currently on the wireless. The appropriate CDs and DVDs need to be acquired, and books, lots and lots of books. "Mackenzie has read Harry Potter, all seven books, three times." How nice for Mackenzie! "Gideon adores books about mythology, and, did I tell you, he's learning French?" Merveilleux! A parent can report nothing more satisfying than that her child is an eager reader, years and years ahead of himself, and, though only nine, already reading at the postdoctoral level of comprehension.

The names Mackenzie and Gideon are a reminder of how important the naming of children has become under the Kindergarchy. No more Edward, Robert, David, when you can have Luc, Guthrie, and Colby; no more Jane, Barbara, Lois, when Lindsay, Courtney, and Kelsey are available. Sometimes, in the naming of children, there is a dip back to the deliberately out-of-date--Jake and Max, Emily and Becky--but such names are tainted by an historical falsity, in the same way that Balanchine said that every beard grown after those worn by men in his father's generation was a fake.

One reads occasional stories about the spoiled children of the rich, those little tyrants of private schools, who wear designer clothes and mock classmates who do not; or about the kids whose parents drop a couple hundred grand on their bar-mitzvahs or sweet 16 parties; or of affluent suburban high-school parking lots filled with their students' BMWs and Porsches. In a rich country, a fair amount of this kind of sad vulgarity figures to go on. But what I have in mind is something more endemic--a phenomenon that affects large stretches of the middle class: the phenomenon, heightened under Kindergarchy, of simply paying more attention to the upbringing of children than can possibly be good for them.

The craze of attentiveness hits its most passionate note with schooling, and schooling starts now younger and younger. When Lyndon Johnson began the War on Poverty in 1965, its most popular, perhaps because least controversial, program was Headstart, which provided the children of the poor with preschooling, so that they would catch up with the children of the middle class by the time all began kindergarten at the age of five. But the middle class soon set in motion a headstart program of its own, sending its children to nursery and preschools as early as is physiologically possible. Where one's child goes to school, how well he does in school, which schools give him the best shot at even better schools later on--these are all matters of the most intense concern.

Under Kindergarchy, no effort on behalf of one's children's schooling is too extensive, no expense too great, no sacrifice in time and energy on the part of parents too exacting. In a scandal of a few years ago, a New York stock-market analyst named Jack Grubman arranged some complicated stock shenanigans to get to a member of the board of the coveted 92nd Street Y Nursery School in Manhattan, whom he hoped would smooth the way for his twin children to get into this school, which he felt would in turn pave the way into the better New York private elementary schools and high schools, and thence obviously to the very Valhalla of the Ivy League itself. The Grubman story shows how much parents feel is riding on their kids' schooling and how far some are willing to go to get what they think is the best for them.

The pressure on the children upon whom all this attention is lavished is not slight. At New Trier, the upper-middle-class suburban high school on Chicago's North Shore, children load up their backpacks with SAT study guides to get as close to being toll free--present parlance for scoring two 800s on the SATs--as possible, carry lacrosse sticks and tennis racquets wherever they go, hoke up their sad little résumés to make themselves look like miniature Dr. Albert Schweitzers in search of lepers to whose aid they might come, and generally plow away at what they call Preparation H, shorthand for preparing to apply to Harvard.

Every high school now has its battery of counselors: guidance, psychological, college. A larger and larger segment of the student population seems to bring its own psychological tics and jiggeroos to school with them: ADHD, dyslexia and other learning disabilities, various degrees of depression requiring regimens of pills and therapy sessions. Some of these defects and disabilities are the result of parents' having their children at a later age. Might others be that the children are so intensely watched over and tested that more and more defects and disabilities show up, some among them possibly imaginary?

School is the pressure point. More and more teachers in grade and high schools complain not about the children they are asked to teach, but about the endless contact with children's parents. Parents are in situ, on the scene, unstintingly on the job. "How come Corey only got a B in physics? He's always been so wonderful in science." "Why isn't Lettice a better speller? Her father won the state spelling bee in Iowa." One wonders how many teachers have been driven out of the profession by parents' bombarding them with emails, phone calls, and requests for meetings?

As my sons were growing up, I began to notice parents taking a great deal of interest in their education, much more so than previous generations of middle-class parents had done. Everyone wanted his or her kids to get into one of the better-regarded colleges, and a lot more than education seemed to be riding on it. A son at Princeton, a daughter at Yale, such things seemed a validation of one's own virtue as a good parent, and hence, somehow, as a superior human being. Much snobbery was entailed, of course; having a child at Harvard being obviously thought more impressive than one at a nearby community college, but more than snobbery alone was involved. Payback time, getting into a good college is the child's return on his parents' immense psychological investment in him.

These much loved children eventually do, at staggering expense (but who's complaining?), go off to college. First, of course, there are the de rigueur pre-college visits, where parents load up the car during junior year of high school to tour all the colleges that are within the child's range of possibility. ("Thaddeus hated Tufts, loved Reed.") Then, the applications completed, the acceptances garnered, the decision made, one last trip: carting the kid off to the school of choice, with a carload of his clothes and appliances, with stereos, computers, television, DVD-player, PlayStation, cell phone, credit card. There he will learn from teachers raised not so very differently than he that it is precisely people like his parents--that would be you, Mom and Dad--who have made life hell for the wretched people of Africa, Bangladesh, and underdogs everywhere round the world. Which may not be the payback most contemporary parents quite envisioned.

How did earlier generations of parents seem able to manage raising children while putting in so much less time, avoiding so much Sturm und Drang? People raising children today will tell you that the world is a more frightening place now than it was 50 years ago. Much more crime out there, drugs are easily obtained, sex offenders are everywhere, lots of children turn up missing, as the back of your milk cartons will inform you. The spirit of therapy having triumphed, we now see more clearly than heretofore how fragile the young human personality is, how easily it can be smashed by mistreatment or mismanagement or want of affection. Add to all this that the options for children are much greater today; a child can go in any number of ways in education and in life, and all these need to be thoroughly investigated.

Failure today seems a much more dismal prospect; 50 or so years ago, if one didn't, for example, get into what was thought a good school, life didn't seem permanently dim, if not effectively over. America seemed to offer more then than now in the way of second chances. Today everything seems so much riskier, so much more appears to be at stake.

Why shouldn't parents do all in their power to make their children's lives less bumpy, more concentrated and carefully planned, thereby increasing their prospects for a happier, more satisfying life? No reason at all, really, except that trying to do so often comes to seem so joyless and the children who emerge from such ultra-careful upbringing so often turn out far from the perfect specimens their parents had imagined.

As a teacher at Northwestern University (not long retired), I found the students in my classes in no serious way I could discern much improved for all the intensity of home and classroom attention most of them received under the Kindergarchy. A very small number, those who had somehow found passion for books and the life of the mind, were remarkable, a number proportionally probably little different than in any generation of students; the rest were like students everywhere and at all times: just wanting to get the damn thing called their education over with and get on with life with the best start possible.

The most impressive students I had over my 30 years of university teaching were those I encountered when I first began, in the early 1970s, who almost all turned out to have been put through Catholic schools, during a time when priests and nuns still taught and Catholic education hadn't become indistinguishable from secular education. Many of these kids resented what they felt was the excessive constraint, with an element of fear added, of their education. Most failed to realize that it was this very constraint--and maybe a touch of the fear, too--that forced them to learn Latin, to acquire and understand grammar, to pick up the rudiments of arguing well, that had made them as smart as they were.

So often in my literature classes students told me what they "felt" about a novel, or a particular character in a novel. I tried, ever so gently, to tell them that no one cared what they felt; the trick was to discover not one's feelings but what the author had put into the book, its moral weight and its resultant power. In essay courses, many of these same students turned in papers upon which I wished to--but did not--write: "D-, Too much love in the home." I knew where they came by their sense of their own deep significance and that this sense was utterly false to any conceivable reality. Despite what their parents had been telling them from the very outset of their lives, they were not significant. Significance has to be earned, and it is earned only through achievement. Besides, one of the first things that people who really are significant seem to know is that, in the grander scheme, they are themselves really quite insignificant.

Growing up with only minimal attention sharpened this sense of one's insignificance. One's fierce little opinions were all very well, but without the substance of accomplishment behind them, they meant nothing. Not long after I had graduated from the University of Chicago, at a family dinner, an aggressively confident cousin of my father's asked what I planned to do with my life. I mentioned, rather diffidently, that I hoped one day to be a writer. "You ought to try to get something in the Reader's Digest," he replied, in a challenging way. The Reader's Digest was not what I had in mind; in those days publishing in the New Yorker, in my young highbrow's view, would have meant selling out. Naturally, I wanted to tell this man how stupid his notion of literary success was and that he should stick to his own damn business (which was the hardware business), and to bugger off, thank you very much. I knew, though, that I daren't do so; I was untried, untested, still a kid (even though one of 22), without authority. Instead I nodded, as if I thought publishing in the Reader's Digest an interesting notion, and returned to my roast beef.

Had that incident occurred today, had I been raised under the Kindergarchy, I no doubt would have lectured him on his ignorance, put him properly in place, my approving parents ("Wonderful how young Joseph always speaks his mind!") looking on. I say this based on the fact that I note today many of the young, in late high-school or college years, suffer no shyness in putting forth their own opinions, observations, and usually less than penetrating insights. So many I have encountered also greatly overestimate their charm. But, then, why shouldn't they; their parents have for years been telling them how tremendously charming they are.

Every generation must have its journalistic label, and the most recent generation to depart school to enter the larger world has begun to be called "the millenniums," after the fact of their coming into their maturity in the 21st century. Newspapers stories are beginning to report that, on the job, these people, raised under the Kindergarchy, don't tolerate criticism well, and need lots of praise to buck them up and get them through the day. A friend of mine, who works for a financial consulting firm, tells me that the brightest of the young men and women going into financial work he meets are almost all interested in hedge funds--they want big scores, 20 or so million before they reach 30. They didn't have to wait long for their toys or attention or anything else as children, so why should they wait for the world's prizes as adults?

The consequences of so many years of endlessly attentive childrearing in young people can also be witnessed in many among them who act as if certain that they are deserving of the interest of the rest of us; they come off as very knowing. Lots of their conversation turns out to be chiefly about themselves, and much of it feels as if it is formulated to impress some dean of admissions with how very extraordinary they are. Despite all the effort that has been put into shaping these kids, things, somehow, don't seem quite to have worked out. Who would have thought that so much love in the home would result in such far from lovable children? But then, come to think of it, apart from their parents, who would have thought otherwise?

Well, in the words of Vladimir Illych Lenin, who had no children, what is to be done? Not very much, I suspect. When such seismic shifts in the culture as that represented by the rise of Kindergarchy take hold, there isn't much anyone can do but wait for things to work themselves out. My own hope is that the absurdity of current arrangements will in time be felt, and people will gradually realize the foolishness of continuing to lavish so much painstaking attention on their children. When that time comes, children will be allowed to relax, no longer under threat of suffocation by love from their parents, and grow up more on their own. Only then will parents once again be able to live their own lives, free to concentrate on their work, life's adult pleasures, and those responsibilities that fall well outside the prison of the permanent kindergarten they have themselves erected and have been forced to live in as hostages.



Edited by VM Smith (06/09/08 03:12 PM)
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#823944 --- 06/10/08 05:28 AM Re: Drama queen issues, etc- [Re: VM Smith]
Where's the love Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/16/04
Posts: 5841
Loc: Tahiti - I can dream...
a quick cure to keep your kids from bugging you when they are bored...keep a list on the refrigerator...of all the stuff you need to get done...
make beds, sweep, vacuum, dust, clean bathroom, laundry, do dishes (be rather specific so that you don't get the half *ss job and still have to finish doing it).
Once the list is done...to your satifaction then let them hang out with you at the kitchen table and have a cup of coffee. Once they realize HOW BORING you really are, they will never bug you again!
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Nope...more like borrowing the bull, but not having to put up with the "manure"

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#823949 --- 06/10/08 05:45 AM Re: Drama queen issues, etc- [Re: The Brain]
Scottie2Hottie Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 01/27/03
Posts: 16463
Loc: aka Brightside
Originally Posted By: The Brain
Consider it done, Rusty.


UGGGGGHHHHhhh it starts again! Are you gonna be like everyone else and ask if we covered her in a tarp and tied her to the roof rack LOL
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#823950 --- 06/10/08 05:49 AM Re: Drama queen issues, etc- [Re: Where's the love]
Scottie2Hottie Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 01/27/03
Posts: 16463
Loc: aka Brightside
Originally Posted By: Where's the love
a quick cure to keep your kids from bugging you when they are bored...keep a list on the refrigerator...of all the stuff you need to get done...
make beds, sweep, vacuum, dust, clean bathroom, laundry, do dishes (be rather specific so that you don't get the half *ss job and still have to finish doing it).
Once the list is done...to your satifaction then let them hang out with you at the kitchen table and have a cup of coffee. Once they realize HOW BORING you really are, they will never bug you again!



My daughter knows better than to tell us she is bored.... if she is hovering or complaining she is bored....all I have to say is "Is your room clean"??? Next thing you know she disappears and not a peep out of her for hours cause she doesn't want me to add anymore chores to her *bored* list LOL
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#823951 --- 06/10/08 06:04 AM Re: Drama queen issues, etc- [Re: Scottie2Hottie]
Where's the love Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/16/04
Posts: 5841
Loc: Tahiti - I can dream...
my kids now have a "cleaner" room. Hard lesson in life. One of the families my daughter babysits for live like PIGS. She told me that the house was messy, so I said, then just pick up and help out the mom. Well, while babysitting, I had to run over and give her something - OMG even after 3 hours of cleaning - there was NO WAY one person could clean this place (without a backhoe or better, a match!) Since then, my daughter has kept her room clean. She now repeats me to her sister, it only takes 5 minutes to pick up. I can't believe how some people live!
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Nope...more like borrowing the bull, but not having to put up with the "manure"

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#824037 --- 06/10/08 08:35 AM Re: Drama queen issues, etc- [Re: Where's the love]
almostrelieved Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/16/05
Posts: 999
Loc: Waterloo, NY
No comments..............................guess I should have known better to ask for "advice" on a public forum. Oh well. I know the next time I need advice NOT to ask the public.

Thanks again for everyone's input. Things are going just fine.

Stay cool!

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#824073 --- 06/10/08 09:53 AM Re: Drama queen issues, etc- [Re: almostrelieved]
The Brain Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/08/06
Posts: 3457
Loc: Looking to deport Rappers.
Well, at least someone in your family has learned something out of this.
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#824379 --- 06/10/08 09:40 PM Re: Drama queen issues, etc- [Re: Where's the love]
Z Genius Lusifer Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 11/16/01
Posts: 27999
Loc: inside your head & under your ...
Originally Posted By: Where's the love
my kids now have a "cleaner" room. Hard lesson in life. One of the families my daughter babysits for live like PIGS. She told me that the house was messy, so I said, then just pick up and help out the mom. Well, while babysitting, I had to run over and give her something - OMG even after 3 hours of cleaning - there was NO WAY one person could clean this place (without a backhoe or better, a match!) Since then, my daughter has kept her room clean. She now repeats me to her sister, it only takes 5 minutes to pick up. I can't believe how some people live!



There is no reason for people to live like pigs.....but they do. Kudos to you and your daughter being aware of the benefits of neatness and organization. It will pay off by saving time over the future years and lead to a clean and respectful life.
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#824658 --- 06/11/08 12:44 PM Re: Drama queen issues, etc- [Re: almostrelieved]
Yetta Nother Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 12/26/06
Posts: 17682
Loc: Sunny and warm
Originally Posted By: almostrelieved
No comments..............................guess I should have known better to ask for "advice" on a public forum. Oh well. I know the next time I need advice NOT to ask the public.

Thanks again for everyone's input. Things are going just fine.

Stay cool!


Actually....I think alot of good advice has been given....but your problem miraculously cured itself......big star for you.
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#838654 --- 07/09/08 12:12 PM Re: Drama queen issues, etc- [Re: Yetta Nother]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I also feel good advice was given, after reading all this.
I do not understand why you seem upset about it.
Is it because we made you see how it was your fault for allowing the child to boss you?
I had 4 children in row. Treated them all as equals. They would pick up their toys as early as two years old while we sang a song. They were taught please and thank you... they were taught to respect their elders... they were taught to say sir and ma'am. to this day my sons will greet another male with a handshake. when they were teenagers they were not too bad... because all the basics of respect were already taught to them.Our kids will do as they please if we allow them too. Start early.

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#838734 --- 07/09/08 01:54 PM Re: Drama queen issues, etc- [Re: ]
The Brain Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/08/06
Posts: 3457
Loc: Looking to deport Rappers.
Way to show up late to the party. Slow day?
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Be careful what you wish for. If that was the case, you'd be deported. - threeputt

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#838737 --- 07/09/08 01:57 PM Re: Drama queen issues, etc- [Re: The Brain]
Yetta Nother Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 12/26/06
Posts: 17682
Loc: Sunny and warm
You're coming to right Brainy?
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Never go to a doctor whose office plants have died...

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#838747 --- 07/09/08 02:13 PM Re: Drama queen issues, etc- [Re: Yetta Nother]
The Brain Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/08/06
Posts: 3457
Loc: Looking to deport Rappers.
I am leaving for the party at 11am Saturday my dear.
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Be careful what you wish for. If that was the case, you'd be deported. - threeputt

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#838784 --- 07/09/08 03:03 PM Re: Drama queen issues, etc- [Re: The Brain]
VM Smith Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 11/28/05
Posts: 38160
Loc: Ship of Fools
It'll be great to meet you. I've been under the apparently mistaken belief that you are somebody I know, when you are not that, I think.
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If you vote for government, you have no right to complain about what government does.

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#838795 --- 07/09/08 03:11 PM Re: Drama queen issues, etc- [Re: VM Smith]
The Brain Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/08/06
Posts: 3457
Loc: Looking to deport Rappers.
You're making the trip for it as well? Excellent. And you know better, we don't know one another.
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Be careful what you wish for. If that was the case, you'd be deported. - threeputt

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#838798 --- 07/09/08 03:14 PM Re: Drama queen issues, etc- [Re: The Brain]
The Brain Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/08/06
Posts: 3457
Loc: Looking to deport Rappers.
I didn't figure you would go in for the music angle of it Smith. You impress me.

I'll bring my camera with me. Capture some memories.
_________________________
Be careful what you wish for. If that was the case, you'd be deported. - threeputt

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#838819 --- 07/09/08 03:55 PM Re: Drama queen issues, etc- [Re: The Brain]
VM Smith Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 11/28/05
Posts: 38160
Loc: Ship of Fools
No long trip for me. If you're there, you'll be amused at who I thought you were. If you are that person, you'll be amused that I've been fooled once again.
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If you vote for government, you have no right to complain about what government does.

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#839276 --- 07/10/08 06:48 AM Re: Drama queen issues, etc- [Re: The Brain]
Yetta Nother Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 12/26/06
Posts: 17682
Loc: Sunny and warm
Originally Posted By: The Brain
I am leaving for the party at 11am Saturday my dear.


Geez how far do ya have to drive....I mean 11 is kinda early no. Lol.
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Never go to a doctor whose office plants have died...

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#839302 --- 07/10/08 07:52 AM Re: Drama queen issues, etc- [Re: Yetta Nother]
The Brain Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/08/06
Posts: 3457
Loc: Looking to deport Rappers.
It's a little over 5 hours. But I haven't seen a gathering like this in I don't know how long. Should be worth the gas money spent.
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Be careful what you wish for. If that was the case, you'd be deported. - threeputt

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#839381 --- 07/10/08 09:48 AM Re: Drama queen issues, etc- [Re: The Brain]
Yetta Nother Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 12/26/06
Posts: 17682
Loc: Sunny and warm
Ok Brain.
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