# NEW: Newspaper: Gunman had filed lawsuit on right to speak at meetings
# NEW: Gunman's brother says "my brother went to war tonight"
# Gunman who opens fire at meeting also killed
# Two of those killed were police officers; three were city employees

http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/02/07/city.council.shooting/index.html

....
A correspondent for the St. Louis Post-Dispatch, Janet McNichols, who was in the city council meeting when the shooting took place, identified the gunman as Charles Lee Thornton, the newspaper reported.

Thornton sued the city of Kirkwood after he was arrested twice for disorderly conduct at two council meetings in 2006. He was later convicted, according to the First Amendment Center, a group that says it works to preserve First Amendment freedoms.

According to a Thursday article written by the center -- before the shooting -- Thornton asked to speak during public-comment portions of 2006 meetings on specific topics, but instead spoke on what he alleged was harassment of him by city officials.
....
In the lawsuit, Thornton said his First Amendment rights had been violated. However, U.S. District Judge Catherine Perry said in a January 28 ruling that the public-comment portion of a meeting could be reserved for certain groups and topics of discussion.
....

I guess he showed 'em. They won't be pushing him around anymore. No siree.

Nothing or no place is safe anymore. A person has to watch out what they say or do to anyone now....Jeez..now I know why i don't like guns, but of course, guns don't kill people..people kill people....

Strange scary world today...
....

This could happen anywhere.

Saw headlines, but this was not Geneva council!!

No it was not in Geneva or even NY; it was in MO. I posted it because it could happen anywhere and a sad story.

Heated arguments getting out of control, understatement I know.

Tempers flare and people not listening to each other and only hearing what they want to hear, sound familiar?

Thought that only happen in the postal world.

Thornton was listening. He apparently didn't like what he heard, though.

"guns don't kill people..people kill people"

Exactly right. In this case, the person was named Thornton, not Sam Colt. If he hadn't had a gun, he could have used a bomb, a machete, or a great, huge, freakin' SUV, for a little sidewalk bowling.

What I do not understand is how do people become so upset and frustrated that they feel the 'need' to go to extremes and kill innocent people. Almost happened at the Superbowl but the man came to his 'senses' and turned himself over to the authorities.

Apparently he had issues with the Mayor and Board members but instead of discussing the issues he would engage in personal attacks on the city officials. How does that help any and what was the point?

No matter what his issue was, why kill innocent people? I know this is an old story and unfortunately we will continue to see this type of crime, I just wanted to here people's thoughts and opinions on it.

Have you ever been so angered that you went into a blind rage?

"Have you ever been so angered that you went into a blind rage?"

No, but some people have 6 blind rages before breakfast.

"What I do not understand is how do people become so upset and frustrated that they feel the 'need' to go to extremes and kill innocent people."

If you're sane, and most people are, you never will understand it.

Even the whackos probably never understand why they do these things; they just listen to the voices.

It just seems to happen more and more. I used to try and tell myself that with mass media and internet that we just hear about it more.

No just more people in the world!
You are right though. Nothing seems hush hush any more.

Here's the biggest school killing to date, which happened in 1927, when the US population was 119,000,000. It's now over 300,000,000, so there are even more whackos around:

Bath School disaster is the name given to three bombings in Bath Township, Michigan, USA, on May 18, 1927, which killed 45 people and injured 58. Most of the victims were children in the second to sixth grades (7-12 years of age) attending the Bath Consolidated School. Their deaths constitute the deadliest act of mass murder in a school in U.S. history. The perpetrator was school board member Andrew Kehoe, who was upset by a property tax that had been levied to fund the construction of the school building. He blamed the additional tax for financial hardships which led to foreclosure proceedings against his farm. These events apparently provoked Kehoe to plan his attack.

On the morning of May 18, Kehoe first killed his wife and then set his farm buildings on fire. As fire fighters arrived at the farm, an explosion devastated the north wing of the school building, killing many of the people inside. Kehoe used a detonator to ignite dynamite and hundreds of pounds of pyrotol which he had secretly planted inside the school over the course of many months. As rescuers started gathering at the school, Kehoe drove up, stopped, and detonated a bomb inside his shrapnel-filled vehicle, killing himself and the school superintendent, and killing and injuring several others. During the rescue efforts, searchers discovered an additional 500 pounds (230 kg) of unexploded dynamite and pyrotol planted throughout the basement of the school's south wing.
Contents

One factor, I believe, is that the rage, frustration, and self-righteousness are fed by our culture. Look at the number of movies where "the good guy" gets pissed off and does some damage.

True, but those people had mental health issues to begin with.

Popular culture does not cause it, popular culture is one part of the environment in which a bad seed is nourished and begins to grow.

I think we also have to tecognize that a large proportion of our population gets the greater part of their education from televison and movies. And most shooters seem to be fairly young; they don't have much real-world experience to balance out the foolishness that they see on the tube. Also, I think that a lot of people grow up thinking that what they see in the media is real life.

Then why aren't they getting help?

Agreed, and in part answers your question in your second post.

A fals sense of reality makes it difficult to recognize there is a problem.

Good point. It's been a long time since I've seen a movie or show where the hero wasn't expected to bust heads once in a while. Whatever happened to heroes like Atticus Finch? Today, a movie like To Kill a Mockingbird would be a critical success, but would tank at the box office. The average American doesn't want quiet, dignified, intelligent, non-violent heroes. People want Rambo, John McClane and the 300 Spartans. Is it a surprise that nearly a quarter of Americans think that it's acceptable to use violence to get what they want?

Because the movies show that it is OK to have anger when it is justified and to the individual they are justified.

As for the kids, their mothers and fathers say that there baby is OK and could not possibly be a harm to anyone else. Our world is in denial when it comes to themselves as part of the problem, the "It cannot happen to me" mentality. Of course they feel it is clear when it happens to someone else that their baby had a problem.

The principal of one of the schools said, "I can be a principal living in fear and turn every incident over to the police or I can take action and deal with the children as it happens" So how do we really know who to send to the psychologist? How do we know when the kid is just a bully or a mentally disturbed person?

How do we know to psychos from the level headed every day crazies? It is usually the quiet one that goes on the rampage, the one that no one notices.

Yes, I believe you're right.

The movies, the movies...

I normally take claims that violent music, TV, video games, movies, etc. make people more violent with a grain of salt, but I have to admit that after watching the movie Varsity Blues I was overcome by a momentary but intense urge to bludgeon someone to death.

Its not the movie that makes one go out and kill innocent people. It is the mentality of so called justified anger that makes the mentally ill go out and kill who they 'think' are the problem.

Popular culture does not reinforce that mentality?

If you feel your feelings are justified any means to an end are justified.

Sounds like a common theme in popular media doesn't it?

The movie Pay it Forward made me want to do more to help others

So why wouldn't watching a movie like Rambo make someone want revenge on someone who has done them wrong. After all wasn't Rambo considered a hero?

Its not one movie.

And


It was justified to them, as described in your own words.

Correct, in their mind and those two movies were just examples

I wasn't saying different

Justified in your mind, of course.

Please clarify?

What is justified in my mind?

Certainly not that the movies justify an excuse for the crazies to kill, just explaining how the crazies THINK they have there idea's reinforced and justifed.

After watching 'Roadhouse' I had same urge!!!

But only towards writer and director!!!

I am very sure George W. Bush and Dick Cheney were behind it!!!

They probably don't realize or admit that they have issues, or others don't, or others can't force them to get help, because nothing violent or illegal has yet occurred.

"How do we know when the kid is just a bully or a mentally disturbed person?"

I think that a bully IS a mentally disturbed person.

True, question should be how do we tell who are dangerous and who are not.

When I say dangerous, I mean, who will kill and who will just give you a wedgie

Look at the VT killings, the killer had a history of mental illness and teachers had concerns about him but the police could not do anything since nothing violent or illegal had occurred, to their knowledge.

So what are we to do in a politically correct society and protecting the rights of others. Is there really a way to tell when this kind of horror is going to happen?

The context of the conversation seems to have been lost.

Except of course in your mind where it is what it is.

Insults do not carry good conversation

I never said movies caused violence, I said that people watch them and feel justified by seeing, what their mentally challenged mind seems to see as someone who understands them and hence justified in killing innocent people, for whatever reason.

If you want to discuss why these horrific events happen and how to prevent it then lets continue.

No it is not due to the movies, it is complex and I thought it would be a good conversation to have.

If I am lost then please tell me what the context was supposed to be

Ya think?

Why would my statement be an insult?

I never said movies caused violence, I said that people watch them and feel justified by seeing, what their mentally challenged mind seems to see as someone who understands them and hence justified in killing innocent people, for whatever reason.

If you want to discuss why these horrific events happen and how to prevent it then lets continue.

No it is not due to the movies, it is complex and I thought it would be a good conversation to have.

"So what are we to do in a politically correct society and protecting the rights of others. Is there really a way to tell when this kind of horror is going to happen?"

Well, this society can be too PC, but I'd rather describe it as one that's still relatively free, and as long as it is, and given that our knowledge of what's really in another's head and heart are incomplete, then we'll have to accept that some will do weird and violent things.

Even if we locked up everyone who seemed a little different, that would be still be true, because some people go dangerously and violently nuts after having exhibited no signs of danger or deviancy.

Of course, it would probably be fun, anyway, to bind or restrain some of these people, throw them into water, and see if they floated or sank. But hey, that's just the voices in my head speaking.

I think I would have been in a straight jacket years ago LOL

If they float then are they normal and the crazies sink to the bottom, HAHAHA That idea didn't work with the witches either.

Sure it worked. You don't see any witches around, do you?

Good point

You round up the lynch mob and I will prepare the water tanks, or would the area pond be easier BAHAHAHA

No problem; I live on the lake, and we could just use the pitch fork and torch crowd that always seems to be following me. I know I could talk them into it; I'll just tell them that the weirdo is possessed by Satan, and that this is what Jesus would do. I'll even forge some notes from their mothers, so they won't worry about the authorities.

Justified anger: big idea there. We are led to believe that there is something right and good about getting angry.

Ya know...I've been looking at your monkey movie, and thinking that it might push some nutjob over the edge. Would you really want to be responsible for that?

I can see the headline: "Madman Mimics Monkey; Women and Children Suffer Most. Abu Denies Responsibility, Says he Was Teaching Class". Be careful; expats are already viewed with suspicion.

I do not understand how a discussion can continue when you talk in circles and the context of a discussion becomes lost.

Actually, it is out of Abu's hands now. I rec'd the "shooting monkey" as a text message on my phone instructing me to "shoot" eveyone in my phone book with him by forwarding it on. Funny, I haven't heard from any of them since.

Bad lil shooting monkey!

LOL!

Now Homeland Security will be knocking at his door. I tried to warn him, but too late.

Wasn't it the other way around?

Okay, Annie, you're new here, so I'm going to give you a couple of tips. It's a rough place, and I see that you can use some help.



Never begin a post by saying, "I never said [x]". Instead, call your interlocutor an idiot and ask him why he never learned to read. Then you can proceed with laying out your argument.

You have to work from a position of strength, or you'll be like a kitty in front of a lawn mower.



This is a veiled sarcastic apology, on the order of "Excuse me for living." Don't do this. It is lame. Instead, tell him you hope the lid of the toilet falls on his head while he's drinking his evening martini.

You have to make him respect you.

AS FOR THESE SHOOTING MONKEY JOKES, you people keep it up and I'll go back to the Hitler avatar. You have been warned.

Awww now don't do that! I love the adorable monkey.

My bad, I think you are right

HAHAHAHA

How am I talking in circles? Movies do not cause violence, the morons who see them and THINK that the movie is based on reality so that gives them the SUPPOSED rationale that they THINK that they are justified in killing when in fact they are NOT justified.

Movies do not make normal, rational people kill because rational people know the movie is fiction and that killing people is ignorant and violence is never the way to solve a problem.

"violence is never the way to solve a problem."

Depends on the problem. It ended Manuel Noriega's killing and torture spree, for instance.

True, but I was talking about senseless violence in terms of everyday America

Like Iraq?

Conversing with you about how you appear to talk in circles is an infinitely more difficult conversation then the one we were having on violence and pop culture that is at the moment really no longer on track.

sorry, you must be educated by monkeys, wait they could follow.

If you don't understand then why continue to read this thread, go throw poop, it is legal for monkeys to do so so the PYPD would not bother you

Not touching that subject, I avoid those threads

How so? and where did that come from?

I thought insults were not warranted and we were having an enlightened exchange of ideas?

See I told you this conversation was going off track.

And just for that you call me a monkey’s uncle?

Thought I would liven things up with a stupid comment, TEHE

You keep telling me I am talking in circles so what the hay, throwing monkey poop is fun. Not as witty as others on this board but I am a newbie

http://www.addictinggames.com/supermonkeypoopflinging.html

Tell me o wise one, what do you think causes people to kill innocent people and why do they feel justified in doing so and where do they get the ignorant idea of following through on their misguided outburst?

I tried discussing this with you, you kept stating contrasting ideas in disagreement but not necessarily elaborate on previous posts.

Then you ended up stating what I had originally said.

I am done.

No my ideas remained consistent. You do not understand, sorry for you.

Why are you refusing to discuss what you think causes people to kill innocent people and why do they feel justified in doing so and where do they get the ignorant idea of following through on their misguided outburst?

Dude, the colors are purty.

Pretty crafty for a newbie

Ones understanding is largely limited to ones biased perception.

Yours of course, suites you.

Have Fun newbie; don't go getting yourself into trouble.

I have been having fun so far. Learning from the pro's on this forum, I am slow but will get there in time I hope,

Hopefully the next topic you will give your thoughts and what your biased perception is. I love different ideas and if they prove me wrong what a fun trip it will be getting there.

Would love to hear them ;0)

Never said I wasn’t biased, everyone is biased.

But that’s hard to figure out if you’re stuck on your own biased opinions. Don’t be so quick to write a response instead trying to grasp the meaning of an individual’s last post.

Additionally, writing better would certainly help people figure out where you’re going in a discussion. And help keep them from forming, biased opinions about you that may not have been your intention.

Once that happens it’s a never ending spiral of chaos into meaningless banter.

Just some helpful tips for ya, Newbie.

No one ever discussed other idea's and I wasn't the one to start the topic of movie violence, just went with it like a blind sheep.

I love different ideas and if they prove me wrong what a fun trip it will be getting there.

Earth to Newbie

Earth to Newbie

Come in Newbie

I am to tired to continue - I have asked for your opinion and others. All you want to do is tell me how I talk in circles and do not listen to any one else. Also how I like to continue on with meaningless banter.

Unless you want to provide new ideas as to why needless violence happens and what we can do to prevent it, shut up or put up.

For meaninglessness here you go

Touchy!

I never said you continue with meaningless banter?

When will you provide new Ideas?

How are you, as a newbie an authority on ideas?

Do you have a thing for dead or violent cats?

Perhaps we are closing in on the cause of senseless violence, YOU!

You are promoting it!

I knew it all along.

I am not an authority on anything, I was asking others for ideas.



What are some of the other factors besides popular culture that nourish the crazies?

Maybe no one has the answer and that is why I wasted 4 pages on trying to find them with discussion.

All I wanted to know is why do people think killing innocent others and themselves will help anything, where did they get that ignorant idea?

As for the killer kitty, thought is was funny, in a sarcastic way, due to the subject at hand.

Message boards?

Am I getting warm?

Smart Alec LOL

Hey! That's more like it. Welcome to the forums.

I think that all of this builds on a foundation of natural, inborn tendencies: We tend to be defensive, to overgeneralize others' behavior as threatening, etc. Look at a group of toddlers playing; what you see there is what is inside all of us. As we mature, we learn to moderate the tendency to act out our feelings -- or we don't. It takes a lot of guidance to reach social maturity successfully. A lot of people don't get that guidance.

"what do you think causes people to kill innocent people and why do they feel justified in doing so"

There's probably a behavioral "why?", but maybe there doesn't have to be a justification. Maybe that's just how we are, and how we act. Do we worry about how the other apes justify their behavior, even though we guess that we know why they do things"

"Justify" has to do with "justice" and the concept of justice is very recently acquired, in our species of ape; a very thin and tenuous veneer over a very rough piece of wood. It's sort of like putting lipstick on an ape and expecting it to stay neat and presentable.

That's a perspective that explains a lot. I think that a lot of us, socialized as we are, forget that what we can see is only the top layer.

So then how do we give and get the guidance? Or is this a lost cause since there are so many more people now in the world.

I know there will always be, sad to say, violence in the world and since there are more people in the world we see more violence.





This scares me too, "maybe it is just who we are"

The top layer is so deceiving, I know people have thought I was this or that just by looking at me and they were so wrong. Don't judge a book by its cover they say. But we do, and as we all know it gets us in trouble. We judge someone who may not dress as we would so he must be a criminal, or the guy in a suit we think must have it together. When in actuality they poorly dressed man is the good one and the one in the suit is the killer.

Maybe we are all apes wearing lipstick.

I only see Abu and Makolig? are there more?

Door number two. I cannot believe that mankind will ever find a way to get itself out of the traps set by its own nature. There is hope for individuals, but not for the great mass. We cannot stop being what we are. And evolution only aims at helping us reproduce; it does not aim at making us happy.

I am not wearing lipstick. Not even on special days.

Sad but true.

So then, should we expect more killings in small towns and school across the country because we are what we are and the population is so much greater now?

Reminds me of the story about the frog and the scorpion I knew from childhood.

One day a scorpion was looking to cross a stream when he happened upon a frog.

“Frog!” the scorpion called out “Could you carry me to the other side of the stream?”

“No! Scorpion”, replied the frog

“Why, may I ask?” asked the scorpion

“Because you will surly sting me.”, said the frog.

The Scorpion replied, “If I were to sting you, you would sink and I would drown. I would not sting you.

The frog paused in thought and said, “That sounds logical, I would be happy to help you. I’ll come over to the bank, you can climb on board and we will be off to the other side. Perhaps one day you might even return the favor.”

The Scorpion smiled with a reassuring nod and proceeded to climb on board the frog. As the two crossed the river, the frog felt a sense of accomplishment in helping the scorpion. He even felt this may be a great new beginning of brotherhood and camaraderie between all frogs and scorpions.

Suddenly, about half way across the stream, the frog felt a searing pain deep into his back as the scorpion thrust his sharp jagged hook into the his flesh. As he felt his legs go cold and numb, he cried out in agonizing pain, “WHY? WHY WOULD YOU STING ME IF YOU TILL WILL DIE TOO? YOU SAID YOU WOULD NOT STINK ME?

As the scorpion began to sink below the surface atop the back of the convulsing frog he said, “I can’t help it. It’s in my nature”

Without education and self discipline, we are all only animals.

We should expect more killings because they have become a part of the status quo. "Columbine" and "going postal" are metonyms for a type of personal expression that is swiftly becoming ACCEPTABLE in our culture. The size of the population is not a causal factor, although it will figure in our seeing a higher number of these events.

So, because it is the status quo there is nothing more that can be done about it?

Do not get me wrong, there have been people who lost their jobs because others felt threatened by them and there was no reason to feel threatened. People are jumpy and have every right to be. Then you have the VT killings, the killer had a history of mental illness and teachers had concerns about him but the police could not do anything since nothing violent or illegal had occurred, to their knowledge.

So I guess there is no easy way to tell the difference between someone is upset with regular frustration from someone who is going to go 'postal'.

I do not know what I am trying to say, I guess I was hoping I was missing something and someone could tell me how we as a society can help the problem instead of becoming desensitized to it all.

The answer to all of our social problems is contained in the notion of "poitical will". Where there is political will, almost anything is possible. We put people up on the moon, didn't we?

And where there is no political will, you may as well be whistlin' Dixie.

Have you heard any of our illustrious presidential wannabes speaking out in favor of a new deal for the mentally ill or of a personal commitment to make safety in our schools the nation's overriding priority?

"Have you heard any of our illustrious presidential wannabes speaking out in favor of a new deal for the mentally ill or of a personal commitment to make safety in our schools the nation's overriding priority?"

Wouldn't that distract us from the gay marriage problem?

That and the tax rebate.

One of the reasons our "leaders" can get away with being irresponsible is because we the people are intently focused on nonsense.

The politicians are trying to please EVERYONE that complains to them and eventually they are running around in circles and NOTHING gets done.

Bingo

Its takes both, a well informed objective people and leaders that actually lead those people, not dogmatic feel good legislation that cost money, occupies time and accomplishes nothing.

Sounds like it would be easier to just put Valium in the drinking water along with the fluoride.

Do they still put fluoride in the water?

Some places they do, but not in SF.