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#690371 --- 11/16/07 07:03 PM To vaccinate or not to vaccinate-that is the ??
almostrelieved Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/16/05
Posts: 999
Loc: Waterloo, NY
Ok here:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071116/ap_on_re_us/shots_getting_tough


What do you think about this article? Was just wondering what people's opinion about getting their child(ren) vaccianted for school.

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#690685 --- 11/17/07 11:27 AM Re: To vaccinate or not to vaccinate-that is the ?? [Re: almostrelieved]
goingcrazyinny Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 02/05/05
Posts: 1632
Loc: NY
NOT!!!!!!
http://www.vaclib.org/exempt/newyork.htm
Vaccinations (PLEASE do not call them immunizations, they do NOT guarantee immunity) actually weaken your immune system. Not only do they contain DNA particles and any number of other cross-contaminants, they contain preservatives like ANTIFREEZE, ALUMINUM, and FORMELDAHYDE (sp?). And sure, they say they don't make vaccines with MERCURY anymore, but the ones that WERE made with mercury are still out there and being used up- just not on my children ;\)

Even if they could make a vaccine without any of these preservatives or additives, I personally still would not inject my children with them. Our immune systems become stronger as they develop their own naturally formed antibodies.


Many people credit modern medicine with improved maternity rates and disease control. This is really not modern medicine's doing! It's because of the improvements in basic sanitation, standards of living, and general health. If you look back at ANY disease throughout history, they all have their own natural pattern of rising and falling, and the diseases that are typically vaccinated against today were already on the natural decline when the vaccines came into use. Yes, vaccines may have sped up the decline process, but at what cost? Weakened immune systems, allergic reactions, autism, learning disabilities?

And WTF is with the chicken pox vaccine people?!?! Seriously. It has one of the lowest effectivity rates, and what little bit of 'immunity' it may provide is only a TEMPORARY immunity. A chicken pox vaccine means that to continue to receive 'protection' your child will need booster shots for his or her whole life. Now let's be honest here: as an adult, when's the last time you've gone in for a booster shot? Children vaccinated with the chicken pox vaccine are not going to be likely to keep up on it as adults, and because the 'protection' the shot gives is only temporary, they will be left with little defenses against it as an adult, and we all know that chicken pox is MUCH more serious to catch as an adult, as opposed to catching it when you're a child, which is typically pretty mild. Chicken pox was a 'right of passage,' if you will, for my generation and generations before mine; why we are vaccinating against this normal, common, rarely deadly childhood disease?

Also, most people forget that you don't need to be actively sick to have acheived natural immunity.

So, back to where I started: you do NOT need to have your child vaccinated for school. We ALL have federally guaranteed rights that allow us to make our own medical decisions and practice our own beliefs. Federally guaranteed rights trump any state laws (which all have exemptions anyways). Many states won't 'allow' for a philosophical exemption, but it is worth noting that there have been numerous cases where parents' personal beliefs have been considered acceptable for religious exemption, and you don't need to be a member of an organized religion for a religious exemption, either.

It just amazes- and scares- me how many people don't realize this. You DO have a choice, and there's a REASON you have choice: because there are very real risks that come along with choosing to vaccinate. Everyone has to make the choices that are right for their own family. I don't look down on anyone who chooses to vaccinate because they feel it's best for their family, and I don't expect to be looked down on by anyone because we choose not to vaccinate because that's what we feel is safest for our family. But I do feel badly for anyone who 'chooses' to vaccinate without all of the information, and for anyone who doesn't realize that they even have a choice or reason to need to choose.
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#691418 --- 11/18/07 06:53 AM Re: To vaccinate or not to vaccinate-that is the ?? [Re: goingcrazyinny]
~Ellie~ Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/28/00
Posts: 8233
Loc: FL1 Auxiliary Member 506
Get the facts not opinions before you decide:

Before Polio vaccination was available, 13,000 to 20,000 cases were reported each year in the U.S. None were reported in 2000.

Measles is one of the most infectious diseases in the world, and is frequently imported into the U.S. If vaccinations were stopped, 2.7 million measles deaths worldwide could be expected.

Before the vaccination, Hib meningitis killed 600 children a year, and infected 20,000. If we were to stop immunizing, we would likely return to the pre-vaccine numbers of infections and deaths.

Whooping Cough-Before immunization, up to 260,000 cases were reported in the U.S. each year, with up to 9,000 deaths. Pertussis still occurs worldwide.

Rubella-Before the 1965 vaccination was used routinely in the U.S., rubella resulted in an estimated 20,000 infants born with CRS, 2,100 neonatal deaths and 11,250 miscarriages in a two-year time span.

Chickenpox was responsible for an estimated 4 million cases, 11,000 hospitalizations and 100 deaths each year before the licensing of the chickenpox vaccine in 1995.

Hepatitis B-Approximately 25% of children who become infected with life-long hepatitis are expected to die of a related disease as adults. In addition to the 12,000 infants infected by their mother during birth, approximately 33,000 children under the age of 10 were infected before the vaccination.

Diphtheria-The death rate before vaccinations was up to 20% in the young and elderly. Although Diphtheria is primarily in other countries, international travels make it easy to contract. In 1921, a diphtheria outbreak caused 12,230 deaths in the U.S. Only one case was reported in 1998, due to vaccinations.

Tetanus-Approximately 30% of reported cases of tetanus end in death. Tetanus kills 300,000 newborns and 30,000 birth mothers worldwide, from lack of immunization. Tetanus is not contagious, and can only be prevented by immunization. People of all ages can be infected.

Mumps-Before the vaccination was developed in 1967, an estimated 212,000 cases occurred in the U.S. annually. In 1986 and 1987, there was a resurgence of mumps with 12,848 cases reported. Since 1989, the incidence has declined, with a total of 323 cases last year.

WHO summaries
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#691503 --- 11/18/07 10:13 AM Re: To vaccinate or not to vaccinate-that is the ?? [Re: ~Ellie~]
Della Offline
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Registered: 12/22/04
Posts: 16305
Loc: Seneca Falls
Thanks Ellie... it's easy to not vaccinate when you haven't lived in an era that didn't have the option.
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#691550 --- 11/18/07 11:46 AM Re: To vaccinate or not to vaccinate-that is the ?? [Re: Della]
Red High Heels Offline
Member

Registered: 02/13/07
Posts: 453
Loc: Geneva, NY
I immunized all of my children, my three daughters got the chicken pox - my boys didn't have them before school so they had to have the immunization. While I'm not all for the chicken pox immunization I didn't argue with the doctor or school about having it done. The more protected my kids are - the better I feel. I would not want to be the one to live with the guilt if my child developed whooping cough and it turned fatal.

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#691557 --- 11/18/07 12:11 PM Re: To vaccinate or not to vaccinate-that is the ?? [Re: Red High Heels]
Della Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 12/22/04
Posts: 16305
Loc: Seneca Falls
My only problem w/the chickenpox vaccine is how long does it last? You hear how bad chicken pox is for adults. What if all these kids don't get the boosters and get it at 30?
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#691676 --- 11/18/07 04:51 PM Re: To vaccinate or not to vaccinate-that is the ? [Re: Della]
Thena Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/16/01
Posts: 2445
Loc: The places of my mind
i think pumping infant fulls of vaxes before giving their bodies a chance to start building their own immunization is assicine.

i have 3 children, and it's only been in the last few moths has my position on vaxes has changed. While, i think they can/are important... i think waiting till a child is older, but maybe not yet in school, to give shots, and then 1 at a time and not 4 or 5 together.

And for those who don't want them all together - that is their right. a child can always go and gets vaxes as an adult as they see fit... but you can't undo getting vaxes.

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#691692 --- 11/18/07 05:44 PM Re: To vaccinate or not to vaccinate-that is the ? [Re: Thena]
MAKOLLIG JEZVAHTED Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/17/00
Posts: 4467
Loc: Five Points C25, upon return c...
Parents that do not get immunizations for their Children in my mind are committing passive child abuse. The data and facts are not disputable as to the risk/safety of getting immunized versus "waiting" to see what happens or "waiting" for them to get older.

If a parent ever took a Tylenol for a headache to me it is hypocritical not to get their children immunized.

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#691716 --- 11/18/07 06:43 PM Re: To vaccinate or not to vaccinate-that is the ?? [Re: Della]
Sunshine2007 Offline
Member

Registered: 07/21/07
Posts: 81
Loc: My little slice of heaven
Originally Posted By: Della
My only problem w/the chickenpox vaccine is how long does it last? You hear how bad chicken pox is for adults. What if all these kids don't get the boosters and get it at 30?


Indeed! Adult Chicken POX is horrible. I thought I had it as a baby, but come to find out it was the measles. I caught it from my son when he started kindergarten. It was so painful! Took me out of work for 3 weeks.

It had just been released when they were asking if I wanted to give it to my kids. I decided not to for the very reason you state Della...there was no data available on the long term. I would much rather my kids went through what they did which was nothing compared to what I had as an adult.

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#691739 --- 11/18/07 07:55 PM Re: To vaccinate or not to vaccinate-that is the ? [Re: Thena]
almostrelieved Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/16/05
Posts: 999
Loc: Waterloo, NY
Not sure if you know Thena but some vaccines are combined now so the child doesn't have to get poked 4 or 5 times. I just heard there is a new vaccine out for the stomach bug, given when the child is only a few months old. Good grief! My daughter currently has a stomach bug-fever and vomiting. She's been on the couch all day except for getting up and going to the bathroom. Poor kid. I hate it when she's sick but it's kinda good for her to have her body build up antibodies to help ward off the next time it comes around, or at least so it won't be as bad. I was vaccinated as well as my 2 younger brothers. We all survived. Of course that was years and years ago. I would hate to have whooping cough or even the measles now. I know of 2 people who had the chicken pox when they were older-one was in high school (we had to take a Regents Chem test and she was just gettin gover it) and the other is my hubby who had it in college. No thanks. He said it was horrible! I know shingles is even worse and very painful.


Edited by almostrelieved (11/18/07 07:56 PM)

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#691910 --- 11/18/07 09:55 PM Re: To vaccinate or not to vaccinate-that is the ? [Re: almostrelieved]
goingcrazyinny Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 02/05/05
Posts: 1632
Loc: NY
I STRONGLY disagree with vaxes for children for something like the flu, or chicken pox, and especially a bug. Of course if a child gets sick they will be miserable, and it's an inconvenience for the parent, but I would rather my children build up a natural immunity instead of getting injected with some fake crap that won't last, has side effects, and isn't guaranteed anyway (not to mention the toxins and preservatives that would put into my children's systems!!).
I have no issue with parents having their kids immunized- I just want them to realize they do have a choice and need to do their research first.
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#691917 --- 11/18/07 11:26 PM Re: To vaccinate or not to vaccinate-that is the ? [Re: almostrelieved]
VM Smith Offline
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Registered: 11/28/05
Posts: 38160
Loc: Ship of Fools
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Sickness and death from vaccine-preventable diseases has fallen to an all-time low in the U.S., according to researchers at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. Last year, there were no reported deaths in the U.S. from measles, diphtheria, mumps, polio, or rubella (German measles), according to research published this week in the Journal of the American Medical Association (JAMA). The number of deaths for tetanus, pertussis (whooping cough), and Hib disease (a major cause of meningitis) had all fallen more than 99% since vaccines were introduced against them. Vaccines have cut the number of deaths from hepatitis A, acute hepatitis B, and chickenpox by more than 80% each. And deaths from invasive pneumococcal disease (a cause of pneumonia, meningitis, and blood infection) have been cut by a quarter. Smallpox has been eradicated worldwide.
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Why, then, is there so much concern about vaccines? In the U.S., few health issues get people as riled up as the persistent, though almost completely discredited, argument that routine childhood immunizations cause autism. In the U.K., doctors and policy makers are debating whether to encourage universal vaccination against chickenpox, a step that U.S. medical authorities took in 1995. Even that debate — focused not on the vaccine's safety, but on whether it's really necessary — has become surprisingly bitter.

Vaccines, like any drug, do carry some risk — but in healthy children, that risk is minute. A very small number of immunized children will have an allergic reaction to the vaccine, sometimes so severe it kills them. The trouble is that people are very bad at translating the practical danger from such miniscule statistical risks. Most people, given the choice to vaccinate their kids and run a tiny risk of an allergic reaction, or not to vaccinate their kids and — as in the case of polio — face a risk of contracting a crippling, sometimes lethal disease, can't figure out what to do: So, they'll ask a doctor. And doctors know that most people can't assess the risks clearly, which is why they get frustrated when a parent refuses to vaccinate a child.

The JAMA authors note their study is not a cost-benefit analysis of any of the vaccines that it analyzes. But the figures do put immunization debates in perspective. "Vaccines," the authors write, "are one of the greatest achievements of biomedical science and public health." The authors cite a 2001 paper, estimating that every year, seven of the 12 routine childhood vaccinations given in the U.S. prevent 14 million disease cases and 33,000 deaths. The JAMA authors believe their own death-rate reduction figures may in fact underestimate the true benefits of vaccination. The numbers don't account for chronic disease averted because of a prevented infection: Hepatitis B, for example, is a major risk factor for liver cancer.

The potential gains of vaccination aren't limited to infants and children, say the CDC researchers. Adults can ask their doctors whether they're good candidates for immunization against shingles, meningococcal illnesses, the human papillomavirus (a cause of cervical cancer in women), and, of course, the flu, among other diseases. "By improving vaccine coverage to adolescents and adults, there could be much greater public health benefit," says co-author Sandra Roush.
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#692157 --- 11/19/07 12:36 PM Re: To vaccinate or not to vaccinate-that is the ? [Re: VM Smith]
Yetta Nother Offline
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Registered: 12/26/06
Posts: 17682
Loc: Sunny and warm
To not vaccinate is just playing with your childs life. Vaccinating is far less dangerous than actually getting the disease itself.
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#692373 --- 11/19/07 06:02 PM Re: To vaccinate or not to vaccinate-that is the ? [Re: Yetta Nother]
VM Smith Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 11/28/05
Posts: 38160
Loc: Ship of Fools
Originally Posted By: Yetta Nother
To not vaccinate is just playing with your childs life. Vaccinating is far less dangerous than actually getting the disease itself.


For you, that's a no-brainer, but some don't understand how to evaluate relative risk, so they panic and don't vaccinate.

http://www.metrokc.gov/health/immunization/compare.htm
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#692407 --- 11/19/07 06:39 PM Re: To vaccinate or not to vaccinate-that is the ? [Re: VM Smith]
goingcrazyinny Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 02/05/05
Posts: 1632
Loc: NY
Unfortunatley it is very rare to find info that is not biased in one direction or another (all depends on who puts it out). Any kind of statistics can be stretched to suit the purpose of either side of the debate no matter which way you look at it. This is a topic that ultimatly comes down to personal choice and/or religious beliefs. Not anything that you will find on the internet. Just educate yourself as much as possible from a variety of sources that look at both sides of the issue and make a decision you can lve with.
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#692516 --- 11/19/07 08:28 PM Re: To vaccinate or not to vaccinate-that is the ? [Re: goingcrazyinny]
Thena Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/16/01
Posts: 2445
Loc: The places of my mind
Originally Posted By: goingcrazyinny
Unfortunatley it is very rare to find info that is not biased in one direction or another (all depends on who puts it out). Any kind of statistics can be stretched to suit the purpose of either side of the debate no matter which way you look at it. This is a topic that ultimatly comes down to personal choice and/or religious beliefs. Not anything that you will find on the internet. Just educate yourself as much as possible from a variety of sources that look at both sides of the issue and make a decision you can lve with.


exactually

i know my post come off very anti-vax (i'm not).. i just believe bombarding little new bodies before they have a chance to grow and develop is insane.

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#765773 --- 03/06/08 11:00 AM Re: To vaccinate or not to vaccinate-that is the ? [Re: Thena]
lncooper Offline
Member

Registered: 09/12/06
Posts: 68
We don't vaccinate. It is a combination of moral, philosophical, religious, and lifestyle reasoning that we don't. There are certain risks and benefits to both vaccinating and not vaccinating.

My oldest was vaccinated, but not my younger two, and I can tell you that an even bigger problem than the additives and contanimanates in the vaccines is the lack of true informed consent and refusal in the vaccine process (or most medical treatments, for that matter). With my oldest, I can tell you without a doubt that I was never told the truth about vaccines not being mandatory, and I was never explained the risks involved.

What many people forget to take into consideration is that most of what is vaccinated for today is not as deadly as it was when the vaccine for it was introduced. This is not because of the vaccines; this is due to better standards of living. Remember, things like the flu and diarrhea used to kill people. These things can still kill people in higher risk health situations, like the immuno-depressed, but for most of the general public these things are common (although still unpleasant), but not life-threatening in and of itself.

Most illnesses that vaccines are developed for are already on the decline by the time they become implemented routinely. ALL diseases have a natural rise and decline. The elimination of a disease may be sped up due to vaccines, but it certainly is not the CAUSE for its elimination.

I personally do not agree with routine vaccines (or eye drops and vitamin K injections at birth) for a variety of reasons that I will not get in to, BUT I am thankful that they exist for those families who choose to have them for their children. Just because *I* don't agree with them doesn't mean I don't think anyone should have access to them if they make an informed choice to do so.

There isn't a one-size-fits-all answer for vaccination. We could debate it all we want but I can guarantee we'd all never agree. Maybe what we could all agree on though is that it's the parents' right and responsibility to make an educated, informed decision on what they feel is in the best interests of their children. ;\)

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#765798 --- 03/06/08 11:55 AM Re: To vaccinate or not to vaccinate-that is the ? [Re: Thena]
AbuDhabi Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 6474
Loc: Doha, Qatar
Originally Posted By: Thena
i think pumping infant fulls of vaxes before giving their bodies a chance to start building their own immunization is assicine.


Assicine? There goes your credibility, with one swift keystroke. Good thing, too, because you medical Luddites are all wrong.

VACCINATE YOUR CHILDREN, PEOPLE!! IT'S NOT A GOVERNMENT PLOT.
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#766269 --- 03/07/08 06:48 AM Re: To vaccinate or not to vaccinate-that is the ? [Re: AbuDhabi]
Strawberry Jam Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 07/11/04
Posts: 34421
Loc: Herkimer County NY
Originally Posted By: AbuDhabi
Originally Posted By: Thena
i think pumping infant fulls of vaxes before giving their bodies a chance to start building their own immunization is assicine.


Assicine? There goes your credibility, with one swift keystroke. Good thing, too, because you medical Luddites are all wrong.

VACCINATE YOUR CHILDREN, PEOPLE!! IT'S NOT A GOVERNMENT PLOT.


AMEN!

Smallpox and polio come to mind. Eradicated because of the advent of vaccines. The suffering those infants, children and families went through in those days because there were no vaccines at the time, I could not imagine, nor want to.

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#766402 --- 03/07/08 10:22 AM Re: To vaccinate or not to vaccinate-that is the ? [Re: Strawberry Jam]
Red High Heels Offline
Member

Registered: 02/13/07
Posts: 453
Loc: Geneva, NY
And to sit there and argue the whole MMR being linked to Autism. I was so glad to read the article where the little girl was diagnosed with autism and they are still pro-vaccine. I'd much rather have a child with autism than lose a child to such a devastating illness and watch them suffer. Now, the next smarta@# don't ask a question about me having a child w/ autism - I do and he was born that way!!!

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#766423 --- 03/07/08 10:45 AM Re: To vaccinate or not to vaccinate-that is the ? [Re: Red High Heels]
Strawberry Jam Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 07/11/04
Posts: 34421
Loc: Herkimer County NY
I have a small scar on my left arm. My children do not. It is from a smallpox vaccination. I would much rather have that small scar than had to have faced that dreadful disease. Fortunatley, for now, my kids and I did not have to worry about them getting that disease.

In the age of possible bio-chemical warfare, how much longer before they may need to bring that vaccine back?

I am glad my children and my grandchildren are protected from the diseases covered by the vaccines. NONE of my children have questioned the vaccinations and told me they regretted my following through with them.

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#766430 --- 03/07/08 10:58 AM Re: To vaccinate or not to vaccinate-that is the ? [Re: Strawberry Jam]
TRD_Tacoma Offline
Silver Member

Registered: 09/19/02
Posts: 12952
Loc: Rochester
I think the peace of mind a vaccine brings is all the reason a parent would need to ensure their children get vaccinated.
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#766431 --- 03/07/08 11:03 AM Re: To vaccinate or not to vaccinate-that is the ? [Re: TRD_Tacoma]
sparky's back Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 9386
Loc: At Home..in the kitchen!!
My kids have had all the vaccines offered to then from their doctors. My last child is Autistic,and never once did it enter my mind that it was from his shots...Happy to say he has out grown most of his Autisum.
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#766432 --- 03/07/08 11:03 AM Re: To vaccinate or not to vaccinate-that is the ? [Re: Strawberry Jam]
lncooper Offline
Member

Registered: 09/12/06
Posts: 68
Originally Posted By: Strawberry Jam

Smallpox and polio come to mind. Eradicated because of the advent of vaccines.


All diseases have their own natural rise and fall! It is NOT solely BECAUSE of vaccines.

Improved standards of living and general health are the REAL cause for when a disease is eradicated. It is also the best form of prevention of any disease.

Originally Posted By: Strawberry Jam
The suffering those infants, children and families went through in those days because there were no vaccines at the time, I could not imagine, nor want to.


No one is saying that those families didn't suffer from these conditions, and I agree that I can't even imagine how awful it must have been for them. It certainly wasn't because there were no vaccines though- it was because living conditions weren't as good as they are today, and not as much was known about general good sanitation, how germs and diseases are spread, not as easy access to good nutirition, etc.

Hand washing wasn't seen as important! A doctor would go from performing an autopsy to catching a baby to examining a child with a fever without once washing his hands. No wonder those diseases ran rampant at the time!



I am willing to bet that it is going to be practically impossible to pin many of these conditions such as autism, ADHD, etc to any one thing because THERE IS SO MUCH THAT MESSES WITH OUR BODIES and our cellular make-up, starting when we are forming.

Whatever toxins our mothers were exposed to before conceiving, or before knowing they'd conceived.

Tests and drugs and toxins our mothers were exposed to while gestating. Think: ultrasounds, prescriptions, etc. All with risks.

Drugs and interventions in birth. Think ultrasounds, artificial pitocin, antibiotics, narcotics, opioids, need I go on? Not even to mention the ramifications of instrumental birth, or the ramifications of when a baby is born by cesarean, and the way THAT affects an infants' body functions and systems (something to think about when 1 in 3 babies is born by cesarean today). All with risks.

Antibiotic eye drops and an injection of vitamin K at birth. With risks.

The breastfeeding vs. formula feeding debate, that I won't even get into here \:\)

Additives in vaccines. Whether you are pro- or anti- vaccines, I don't know of ANYONE who thinks it's a GOOD thing to inject a child with thimerosol, formeldahyde, aluminum, etc. All with risks.

Chemical exposure through foods. All with risks.

Flouridated water. With risks.

All homes have some forms of mold, mildew and bacteria; countless people still live in housing with asbestos and lead present. With risks.

SO much affects the individual health, immune system, and behaviors of each person, that it would be impossible to blame one thing for a particular problem; which also means it would be impossible to give credit to just one thing like vaccines for eradicating certain diseases.


I said it before, and I'll say it again:

Originally Posted By: lncooper

There isn't a one-size-fits-all answer for vaccination. We could debate it all we want but I can guarantee we'd all never agree. Maybe what we could all agree on though is that it's the parents' right and responsibility to make an educated, informed decision on what they feel is in the best interests of their children. ;\)

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#766434 --- 03/07/08 11:06 AM Re: To vaccinate or not to vaccinate-that is the ? [Re: TRD_Tacoma]
lncooper Offline
Member

Registered: 09/12/06
Posts: 68
Originally Posted By: TRD_Tacoma
I think the peace of mind a vaccine brings is all the reason a parent would need to ensure their children get vaccinated.


They're not a guarantee, and they're not risk-free. It's not a choice between guaranteed health and sure death.

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#766436 --- 03/07/08 11:10 AM Re: To vaccinate or not to vaccinate-that is the ? [Re: AbuDhabi]
lncooper Offline
Member

Registered: 09/12/06
Posts: 68
Originally Posted By: AbuDhabi
Originally Posted By: Thena
i think pumping infant fulls of vaxes before giving their bodies a chance to start building their own immunization is assicine.


Assicine? There goes your credibility, with one swift keystroke. Good thing, too, because you medical Luddites are all wrong.

VACCINATE YOUR CHILDREN, PEOPLE!! IT'S NOT A GOVERNMENT PLOT.


I think it's awfully petty to say what someone says isn't credible based on a typo ;\)

Maybe I missed something, but I haven't seen anyone claim it's a government plot yet. . . not everyone who chooses not to vaccinate is an extremist or conspirarcy theorist.

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#766437 --- 03/07/08 11:12 AM Re: To vaccinate or not to vaccinate-that is the ? [Re: Strawberry Jam]
lncooper Offline
Member

Registered: 09/12/06
Posts: 68
Originally Posted By: Strawberry Jam
I have a small scar on my left arm. My children do not. It is from a smallpox vaccination. I would much rather have that small scar than had to have faced that dreadful disease.


It's not a choice of A) vaccine and maybe a small scar from the shot but guaranteed health or B) no vaccine and definite illness. There is an option C) no vaccine and still have a high likelihood of not getting the illness, especially when you take good care of your general health.

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#766438 --- 03/07/08 11:18 AM Re: To vaccinate or not to vaccinate-that is the ? [Re: Strawberry Jam]
lncooper Offline
Member

Registered: 09/12/06
Posts: 68
Double post, sorry. Site was messing up.


Edited by lncooper (03/07/08 11:25 AM)

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#766444 --- 03/07/08 11:38 AM Re: To vaccinate or not to vaccinate-that is the ? [Re: VM Smith]
lncooper Offline
Member

Registered: 09/12/06
Posts: 68
Originally Posted By: VM Smith
Originally Posted By: Yetta Nother
To not vaccinate is just playing with your childs life. Vaccinating is far less dangerous than actually getting the disease itself.


For you, that's a no-brainer, but some don't understand how to evaluate relative risk, so they panic and don't vaccinate.

http://www.metrokc.gov/health/immunization/compare.htm


I don't pressume that people who do vaccinate are ignorant, and I'd hope that people who do vaccinate don't think of me as ignorant because I choose not to.

It's not just about relative risks. . .

I wasn't going to get into this, but on top of my concerns about risks vs. benefits, there are many of us who have serious moral, religious, and philosophical reservations and objections to vaccines. For us, we are Christian, and part of our beliefs are that God made us in His imagine, just the way that He intended us to be. He gave us what He wanted us to have; if He wanted us to have these automatic abilities to be immune to disease, then we'd be born with such. We also believe the body He gave us is sacred, and doubting His abilities by injecting artifical chemicals, animal and human matter, and other cross-contaminants is going against His will.

That's not to say that everyone who believes in God or is Christian feels the same way or should feel that way, but it was a HUGE factor in our decision to not vaccinate. . . among other things, which certainly DID include researching the relative risks and benefits of both vaccinating or not. It certainly was not an easy decision, or one based on ignorance or panic.

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#766462 --- 03/07/08 12:20 PM Re: To vaccinate or not to vaccinate-that is the ? [Re: lncooper]
stargatersg1 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 993
Loc: Geneva, NY
For us, we are Christian, and part of our beliefs are that God made us in His imagine, just the way that He intended us to be. He gave us what He wanted us to have; if He wanted us to have these automatic abilities to be immune to disease, then we'd be born with such.

We are born with it ..it's called your immune system, but with all of the crap in the world today, our immune systems need help sometimes. Especially those who are unfortunate enough to have weak immunbe systems. I am a Christian also , and I beleive in God, but God also saw the importance of Doctors to help us. He has answered many prayers through the working of others, Doctors, Nurses etc.
In a similar context, a child born with a defective heart. This may be the way God intended, But should we just not do anything and let the child die or should we use the toos avaliable to us to cure the child?
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Some of us go to the grave with our music still in us!!!

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#766465 --- 03/07/08 12:21 PM Re: To vaccinate or not to vaccinate-that is the ? [Re: lncooper]
Coach64 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/22/03
Posts: 3120
Loc: Houghton, MI
If he gave you everything, he also gave you these immunizations.
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"Every man dies, not every man truly lives"

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#766474 --- 03/07/08 12:40 PM Re: To vaccinate or not to vaccinate-that is the ? [Re: Coach64]
TRD_Tacoma Offline
Silver Member

Registered: 09/19/02
Posts: 12952
Loc: Rochester
I guess they must have been born with cloths, a house, an education, a career, eye glasses, etc etc etc.
_________________________
It's hard for a gay man to feel bad about himself when his urologist asks him out on a date!

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#766476 --- 03/07/08 12:43 PM Re: To vaccinate or not to vaccinate-that is the ? [Re: TRD_Tacoma]
Coach64 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/22/03
Posts: 3120
Loc: Houghton, MI
TMTH
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"Every man dies, not every man truly lives"

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#766478 --- 03/07/08 12:44 PM Re: To vaccinate or not to vaccinate-that is the ? [Re: stargatersg1]
lncooper Offline
Member

Registered: 09/12/06
Posts: 68
Originally Posted By: stargatersg1

We are born with it ..it's called your immune system, but with all of the crap in the world today, our immune systems need help sometimes. Especially those who are unfortunate enough to have weak immunbe systems. I am a Christian also , and I beleive in God, but God also saw the importance of Doctors to help us. He has answered many prayers through the working of others, Doctors, Nurses etc.
In a similar context, a child born with a defective heart. This may be the way God intended, But should we just not do anything and let the child die or should we use the toos avaliable to us to cure the child?


Yes, I completely understand and agree that sometimes, God works through humans, sometimes in the form of doctors or knowledge and access to modern medicine or alternative medicines. I agree that God did see the importance of various care providers to help us- when we can't help ourselves.

We don't totally reject modern medicine, but we feel there is a definite difference between using what He has given us access to to fix a medical problem, and overusing it in the name of prevention and 'just in case.' Kind of like having an entire pie in front of you. . . you can eat the entire thing because it looks and tastes good, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's healthy, or that you should.

FWIW, my oldest daughter was born with a birth defect that would have been fatal without the assistance of modern medicine, and my husband is insulin-dependant diabetic. I am thankful for the work that God does through humans *when we need it.* In our beliefs, 'just in case' is not a matter of necessity, especially when we are given other tools to maximize prevention non-interventatively.

I'm not saying I'm right and you're wrong- vaccine or religion-wise- not at all! I see what you're saying on the religion/modern medicine point and I respect your beliefs and choices, but I'm just trying to clarify a little bit of our beliefs and how we came to our decision not to vaccinate. \:\)

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#766486 --- 03/07/08 12:51 PM Re: To vaccinate or not to vaccinate-that is the ? [Re: lncooper]
Red High Heels Offline
Member

Registered: 02/13/07
Posts: 453
Loc: Geneva, NY
We're also very Christian and while everybody has their own beliefs or opinions I'm not here to bash that. God Bless You and your family - I guess the way I look at it is Jesus was able to heal people. While he did this in miraculous ways I believe he meant for us to be able to heal each other also and this is the way we can accomplish this. If that makes sense (???) Oh well, to me it does \:o

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#766489 --- 03/07/08 12:54 PM Re: To vaccinate or not to vaccinate-that is the ? [Re: TRD_Tacoma]
lncooper Offline
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Registered: 09/12/06
Posts: 68
Look. This is why I didn't even want to get into how our beliefs influenced our decision. I don't appreciate the remarks implying that my religious beliefs are wrong. I'm not saying they're right for everyone; you (generally speaking) believe whatever you believe in and do it with all your heart, and if you do that, then that's what's right for you. I'd really rather not continue with a great religious debate just to have others tell me what I should or should not believe in, just as I'd really appreciate others not telling me what to do to my children concerning whether or not to vaccinate.

I was just trying to clarify that just because someone chooses not to vaccinate doesn't mean they are ignorant or selective in the information they take in.

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#766492 --- 03/07/08 12:55 PM Re: To vaccinate or not to vaccinate-that is the ? [Re: Red High Heels]
lncooper Offline
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Registered: 09/12/06
Posts: 68
Originally Posted By: Red High Heels
If that makes sense (???) Oh well, to me it does \:o


If it makes sense to you and is what's right for your family, then yes, it does make sense and that's all that matters \:\)

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#766494 --- 03/07/08 01:00 PM Re: To vaccinate or not to vaccinate-that is the ? [Re: Red High Heels]
lncooper Offline
Member

Registered: 09/12/06
Posts: 68
Originally Posted By: Red High Heels
Jesus was able to heal people. While he did this in miraculous ways I believe he meant for us to be able to heal each other also and this is the way we can accomplish this.


*Healing* is different than *prevention* in my book \:\)

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#766526 --- 03/07/08 01:51 PM Re: To vaccinate or not to vaccinate-that is the ? [Re: lncooper]
stargatersg1 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 993
Loc: Geneva, NY
Originally Posted By: lncooper
Originally Posted By: Red High Heels
Jesus was able to heal people. While he did this in miraculous ways I believe he meant for us to be able to heal each other also and this is the way we can accomplish this.


*Healing* is different than *prevention* in my book \:\)


That's true. Prevention doesn't always mean vaccinations etc either. I think a lot of the present day "ailments" are because of our lazy life styles. If we took more pride in the bodies God gave us, we would be far better off.Diabetes and Obesity are two life style diseases that could be prevented by making smart choices.
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Some of us go to the grave with our music still in us!!!

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#766528 --- 03/07/08 01:57 PM Re: To vaccinate or not to vaccinate-that is the ? [Re: lncooper]
stargatersg1 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 993
Loc: Geneva, NY
Originally Posted By: lncooper
Originally Posted By: Red High Heels
If that makes sense (???) Oh well, to me it does \:o


If it makes sense to you and is what's right for your family, then yes, it does make sense and that's all that matters \:\)


That's right. We make decisions based on our experience and knowledge and beliefs. Nothing wrong with that. It would be a pretty weird world if we all thought alike lol.
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Some of us go to the grave with our music still in us!!!

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#766553 --- 03/07/08 02:24 PM Re: To vaccinate or not to vaccinate-that is the ? [Re: lncooper]
TRD_Tacoma Offline
Silver Member

Registered: 09/19/02
Posts: 12952
Loc: Rochester
Originally Posted By: lncooper
Look. This is why I didn't even want to get into how our beliefs influenced our decision. I don't appreciate the remarks implying that my religious beliefs are wrong. I'm not saying they're right for everyone; you (generally speaking) believe whatever you believe in and do it with all your heart, and if you do that, then that's what's right for you. I'd really rather not continue with a great religious debate just to have others tell me what I should or should not believe in, just as I'd really appreciate others not telling me what to do to my children concerning whether or not to vaccinate.

I was just trying to clarify that just because someone chooses not to vaccinate doesn't mean they are ignorant or selective in the information they take in.


You brought religion into the discussion. If you didn't want to go there, then you shouldn't have taken it there.
_________________________
It's hard for a gay man to feel bad about himself when his urologist asks him out on a date!

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#766558 --- 03/07/08 02:28 PM Re: To vaccinate or not to vaccinate-that is the ? [Re: TRD_Tacoma]
TRD_Tacoma Offline
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Registered: 09/19/02
Posts: 12952
Loc: Rochester
When I hear people making the excuse that a vaccine isn't something that God gave them and therefore they don't have their children vaccinated against deadly infections, I wonder just how they would feel if their child did get something that could have been prevented by the vaccine?
_________________________
It's hard for a gay man to feel bad about himself when his urologist asks him out on a date!

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#766579 --- 03/07/08 03:09 PM Re: To vaccinate or not to vaccinate-that is the ? [Re: TRD_Tacoma]
lncooper Offline
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Registered: 09/12/06
Posts: 68
Originally Posted By: TRD_Tacoma
You brought religion into the discussion. If you didn't want to go there, then you shouldn't have taken it there.


The only reason I 'went there' in the first place is because it feels pretty insulting when others keep saying that those of us who don't vaccinate must be ignorant on the risks and facts, and I was just trying to make a point that for most of us, there is more to it than just numbers.

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#766580 --- 03/07/08 03:12 PM Re: To vaccinate or not to vaccinate-that is the ? [Re: lncooper]
Strawberry Jam Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 07/11/04
Posts: 34421
Loc: Herkimer County NY
Originally Posted By: lncooper
Originally Posted By: Strawberry Jam
I have a small scar on my left arm. My children do not. It is from a smallpox vaccination. I would much rather have that small scar than had to have faced that dreadful disease.


It's not a choice of A) vaccine and maybe a small scar from the shot but guaranteed health or B) no vaccine and definite illness. There is an option C) no vaccine and still have a high likelihood of not getting the illness, especially when you take good care of your general health.


Take a look at some remote thrid world countries without the options of immunizations for all. Something the free world is trying to help with.
It is your right and your choice not to vaccinate your child, no matter why you make that choice as you feel this is protecting your children.

It is also my choice and others, to choose to have had or to have our children vaccinated to protect them.

As much as you say we are hammering on you for your beliefs, you are hammering back, and that is what started the thread in the first place.

I have a friend whose Mother was afflicted with polio. She lived, but now has a permanent limp and great amount of pain. She has lived with this since childhood, and you will not hear her complain. But, her daughter knows the pain she feels.

I would not want to watch my children suffer.

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#766582 --- 03/07/08 03:17 PM Re: To vaccinate or not to vaccinate-that is the ? [Re: TRD_Tacoma]
lncooper Offline
Member

Registered: 09/12/06
Posts: 68
Originally Posted By: TRD_Tacoma
When I hear people making the excuse that a vaccine isn't something that God gave them and therefore they don't have their children vaccinated against deadly infections, I wonder just how they would feel if their child did get something that could have been prevented by the vaccine?


This is definetely something that factors into making the decision. As a parent, NO MATTER WHAT YOU CHOOSE, if something happens to your child, there is always the thoughts of 'what could I have done differently?'

My family is healthy and not immuno-supressed. We have healthy living conditions. They were/are breastfed. We eat mostly natural/organic foods. We have a pretty healthy lifestyle. The chances of any of us getting any of these diseases to the extent that it would have a tragic outcome is very very very rare. I realize that's not a guarantee of anything. The risks of a permanent, tragic outcome from a vaccine is also very rare. I know that. This is especially where our faith factors in, and we just had to make what we felt was the best decision for our family. It's not 'just an excuse.'

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#766583 --- 03/07/08 03:18 PM Re: To vaccinate or not to vaccinate-that is the ? [Re: lncooper]
Strawberry Jam Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 07/11/04
Posts: 34421
Loc: Herkimer County NY
Originally Posted By: lncooper
Originally Posted By: TRD_Tacoma
You brought religion into the discussion. If you didn't want to go there, then you shouldn't have taken it there.


The only reason I 'went there' in the first place is because it feels pretty insulting when others keep saying that those of us who don't vaccinate must be ignorant on the risks and facts, and I was just trying to make a point that for most of us, there is more to it than just numbers.


Well, sorry but "your side" threw the first insult (and Thena and I usually get along pretty well)
Originally Posted By: Thena
i think pumping infant fulls of vaxes before giving their bodies a chance to start building their own immunization is assicine.



It is your choice, yes. You decide. You want to educate on us on why not to vaccinate, and we choose to educate on why you should. Pretty simple. We don't agree.

As far as God, I believe He created those who discovered the way to make vaccinations. I do believe He intends to have diseases and such, but He also gives the gift of scientists and such to find the cures, slow the progression, etc.

It is your right to believe in your religious aspects, but it is also my right to believe they are not what God intended.

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#766587 --- 03/07/08 03:27 PM Re: To vaccinate or not to vaccinate-that is the ? [Re: Strawberry Jam]
lncooper Offline
Member

Registered: 09/12/06
Posts: 68
Originally Posted By: Strawberry Jam
Take a look at some remote thrid world countries without the options of immunizations for all. Something the free world is trying to help with.


Yes, *third world countries* with awful, unsanitary living conditions. Disgusting water. Many people living together in close, dirty shelters. Vaccines *may* help protect them against some of the diseases that obviously run rampant in these conditions, but vaccines alone don't solve what make a third world country a third world county \:\)


Originally Posted By: Strawberry Jam
It is your right and your choice not to vaccinate your child, no matter why you make that choice as you feel this is protecting your children.

It is also my choice and others, to choose to have had or to have our children vaccinated to protect them.


I totally agree. I have never said otherwise.

Originally Posted By: Strawberry Jam
As much as you say we are hammering on you for your beliefs, you are hammering back, and that is what started the thread in the first place.


Can you please show me where I 'hammered' anyone?

I don't think I've been anything but clear in this thread about my beliefs being just that- MY beliefs- and they don't have to be anyone else's, and that I am in total support of each parent making the decision that they feel is best for their children. I have explained some of our personal reasons for not vaccinating simply b/c others have seemed to imply that not vaccinating=ignorance and endangerment.

Originally Posted By: Strawberry Jam
I have a friend whose Mother was afflicted with polio. She lived, but now has a permanent limp and great amount of pain. She has lived with this since childhood, and you will not hear her complain. But, her daughter knows the pain she feels.


Counting back the generations, yes, that was a time when polio was an awful disease, and I'm sorry for what she has to live with as a result.

Originally Posted By: Strawberry Jam
I would not want to watch my children suffer.


Neither would I. Again, it's not a choice of suffer or don't suffer, and just because I don't vaccinate doesn't mean that I'm not doing other things to help protect them.

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#766589 --- 03/07/08 03:31 PM Re: To vaccinate or not to vaccinate-that is the ? [Re: Strawberry Jam]
lncooper Offline
Member

Registered: 09/12/06
Posts: 68
Originally Posted By: Strawberry Jam

Well, sorry but "your side" threw the first insult


I don't think Thena meant it as an insult. I don't know her personally, and obviously I can't speak on her behalf, but that's not how I read her comment. Even so, *I* didn't say it. . .

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#766664 --- 03/07/08 06:31 PM Re: To vaccinate or not to vaccinate-that is the ? [Re: lncooper]
Strawberry Jam Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 07/11/04
Posts: 34421
Loc: Herkimer County NY
Originally Posted By: lncooper
Originally Posted By: Strawberry Jam

Well, sorry but "your side" threw the first insult


I don't think Thena meant it as an insult. I don't know her personally, and obviously I can't speak on her behalf, but that's not how I read her comment. Even so, *I* didn't say it. . .


No you didn't say it, but you did lump all of us together that choose to vaccinate into being "insultive".

Third world countires are not the only places that are dirty and unsanitary. We have our own places that are below the poverty line and have had places that have had sanitary problems. Not an insult to New Orleans at all here, but look what happened after Katrina, and much work is needed there to clean it up.

Vaccinations are important. It is what has decreased diseases such as polio and such.

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#767500 --- 03/09/08 12:51 PM Re: To vaccinate or not to vaccinate-that is the ? [Re: Strawberry Jam]
goingcrazyinny Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 02/05/05
Posts: 1632
Loc: NY
Lcooper and I are on the same page on this one. We are not necessarily advocating for not having your child(ren) vaccinated, but simply to educate yourselves on the potential effects of the vaccines as opposed to the potential risks of not vaccinating and make an informed, educated decision about how you want to approach the health and wellness of your family.

Don't assume that doctors know what is in the best interest of your health, but seek out your own information from various sources, then choose. This should apply in everything health related, not just vaccinations (vitamins, supplements, flouride treatments, preventative treatments, or general health).
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#767522 --- 03/09/08 01:24 PM Re: To vaccinate or not to vaccinate-that is the ? [Re: lncooper]
VM Smith Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 11/28/05
Posts: 38160
Loc: Ship of Fools
"I think it's awfully petty to say what someone says isn't credible based on a typo"

Typo? Even if the "c" is replaced with an "n", it's still misspelled.

Here's another one:

"pressume"

Did you get a large box of esses for xmas, that you feel you must use up before they spoil?


Edited by VM Smith (03/09/08 01:54 PM)
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#767536 --- 03/09/08 01:40 PM Re: To vaccinate or not to vaccinate-that is the ? [Re: Strawberry Jam]
VM Smith Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 11/28/05
Posts: 38160
Loc: Ship of Fools
Here's a great short article on the effectiveness of vaccines. I would have copied it, but it's got some neat graphs that support the text:

http://www.apologia.com/vaccines/vac_effective.html
_________________________
If you vote for government, you have no right to complain about what government does.

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#767547 --- 03/09/08 01:51 PM Re: To vaccinate or not to vaccinate-that is the ? [Re: lncooper]
VM Smith Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 11/28/05
Posts: 38160
Loc: Ship of Fools
"*Healing* is different than *prevention* in my book"

I'd rather prevent a broken arm than heal it, and I feel the same way about polio.

My father was paralyzed on his right side from polio for 10 days. He mostly recovered, but it bothered him for life. The vaccine came when I was 3, and I am thankful that my parents were smart enough to have me vaccinated.
_________________________
If you vote for government, you have no right to complain about what government does.

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#767559 --- 03/09/08 01:57 PM Re: To vaccinate or not to vaccinate-that is the ?? [Re: goingcrazyinny]
Strawberry Jam Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 07/11/04
Posts: 34421
Loc: Herkimer County NY
This post does not reflect a stance to just "educate" people. Especially the big "NOT!" to start it off and rhe "WTF" about the chicken pox vaccine.


Originally Posted By: goingcrazyinny
NOT!!!!!!
http://www.vaclib.org/exempt/newyork.htm
Vaccinations (PLEASE do not call them immunizations, they do NOT guarantee immunity) actually weaken your immune system. Not only do they contain DNA particles and any number of other cross-contaminants, they contain preservatives like ANTIFREEZE, ALUMINUM, and FORMELDAHYDE (sp?). And sure, they say they don't make vaccines with MERCURY anymore, but the ones that WERE made with mercury are still out there and being used up- just not on my children ;\)

Even if they could make a vaccine without any of these preservatives or additives, I personally still would not inject my children with them. Our immune systems become stronger as they develop their own naturally formed antibodies.


Many people credit modern medicine with improved maternity rates and disease control. This is really not modern medicine's doing! It's because of the improvements in basic sanitation, standards of living, and general health. If you look back at ANY disease throughout history, they all have their own natural pattern of rising and falling, and the diseases that are typically vaccinated against today were already on the natural decline when the vaccines came into use. Yes, vaccines may have sped up the decline process, but at what cost? Weakened immune systems, allergic reactions, autism, learning disabilities?

And WTF is with the chicken pox vaccine people?!?! Seriously. It has one of the lowest effectivity rates, and what little bit of 'immunity' it may provide is only a TEMPORARY immunity. A chicken pox vaccine means that to continue to receive 'protection' your child will need booster shots for his or her whole life. Now let's be honest here: as an adult, when's the last time you've gone in for a booster shot? Children vaccinated with the chicken pox vaccine are not going to be likely to keep up on it as adults, and because the 'protection' the shot gives is only temporary, they will be left with little defenses against it as an adult, and we all know that chicken pox is MUCH more serious to catch as an adult, as opposed to catching it when you're a child, which is typically pretty mild. Chicken pox was a 'right of passage,' if you will, for my generation and generations before mine; why we are vaccinating against this normal, common, rarely deadly childhood disease?

Also, most people forget that you don't need to be actively sick to have acheived natural immunity.

So, back to where I started: you do NOT need to have your child vaccinated for school. We ALL have federally guaranteed rights that allow us to make our own medical decisions and practice our own beliefs. Federally guaranteed rights trump any state laws (which all have exemptions anyways). Many states won't 'allow' for a philosophical exemption, but it is worth noting that there have been numerous cases where parents' personal beliefs have been considered acceptable for religious exemption, and you don't need to be a member of an organized religion for a religious exemption, either.

It just amazes- and scares- me how many people don't realize this. You DO have a choice, and there's a REASON you have choice: because there are very real risks that come along with choosing to vaccinate. Everyone has to make the choices that are right for their own family. I don't look down on anyone who chooses to vaccinate because they feel it's best for their family, and I don't expect to be looked down on by anyone because we choose not to vaccinate because that's what we feel is safest for our family. But I do feel badly for anyone who 'chooses' to vaccinate without all of the information, and for anyone who doesn't realize that they even have a choice or reason to need to choose.



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#767563 --- 03/09/08 02:01 PM Re: To vaccinate or not to vaccinate-that is the ? [Re: lncooper]
VM Smith Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 11/28/05
Posts: 38160
Loc: Ship of Fools
"If it makes sense to you and is what's right for your family, then yes, it does make sense and that's all that matters"

Some think that way that about serpent handling; I think they're just plain ignorant.
_________________________
If you vote for government, you have no right to complain about what government does.

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#767578 --- 03/09/08 02:10 PM Re: To vaccinate or not to vaccinate-that is the ?? [Re: Strawberry Jam]
Strawberry Jam Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 07/11/04
Posts: 34421
Loc: Herkimer County NY

You want education? Here ya go.

Originally Posted By: goingcrazyinny


And WTF is with the chicken pox vaccine people?!?! Seriously. It has one of the lowest effectivity rates, and what little bit of 'immunity' it may provide is only a TEMPORARY immunity. A chicken pox vaccine means that to continue to receive 'protection' your child will need booster shots for his or her whole life. Now let's be honest here: as an adult, when's the last time you've gone in for a booster shot? Children vaccinated with the chicken pox vaccine are not going to be likely to keep up on it as adults, and because the 'protection' the shot gives is only temporary, they will be left with little defenses against it as an adult, and we all know that chicken pox is MUCH more serious to catch as an adult, as opposed to catching it when you're a child, which is typically pretty mild. Chicken pox was a 'right of passage,' if you will, for my generation and generations before mine; why we are vaccinating against this normal, common, rarely deadly childhood disease?


Can a healthy person who gets varicella die from the disease?
Yes. Many of the deaths and complications from chickenpox occur in previously healthy children and adults. From 1990 to 1994, before a vaccine was available, about 50 children and 50 adults died from chickenpox every year; most of these persons were healthy or did not have a medical illness (such as cancer) that placed them at higher risk of getting severe chickenpox. Since 1999, states have been encouraged to report chickenpox deaths to CDC. These reports have shown that some deaths from chickenpox continue to occur in healthy, unvaccinated children and adults. Most of the healthy adults who died from chickenpox contracted the disease from their unvaccinated children.


http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd-vac/varicella/dis-faqs-gen.htm

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#767589 --- 03/09/08 02:21 PM Re: To vaccinate or not to vaccinate-that is the ?? [Re: Strawberry Jam]
VM Smith Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 11/28/05
Posts: 38160
Loc: Ship of Fools
From the article I linked above:


There is one other very important thing to note from the graphs. Anti-vaccination advocates often try to explain the dramatic decrease in vaccine-preventable diseases in terms of increased sanitation. They say that these disease rates are so low because we have developed better sanitary practices over the years. However, these graphs show that this is just not true. After all, the polio disease rates decreased dramatically in the late 1950s. However, the measles rates did not decrease dramatically for another 10 years. If good sanitary practices were responsible for the drop in disease rates, you should see the disease rates fall roughly at the same time. That’s just not the case. The disease rates fell only when vaccines were tested and then approved. Also, note the short time over which the disease rates fell so dramatically. Do sanitation practices change so quickly that they completely "clean up" a country in a matter of a few years? Definitely not! Improved sanitation just does not explain the data.

In fact, most medical historians blame increased sanitation for the rise in polio from 1944 to 1952. When sanitary practices were rather poor, people were regularly exposed to small amounts of the polio virus, usually when they were babies and therefore had the extra protection given to them by the antibodies they received through their mothers’ milk. Their immune systems were able to conquer the weak exposure to the virus with the help of their mothers’ antibodies, and thus they became immune. As a result, the poor sanitation was actually acting like a "dirty" vaccine! As sanitary practices improved, fewer people were exposed to small amounts of the virus as infants. As a result, when they were exposed to concentrated amounts of the virus (from a person who already had the disease, for example), they would succumb to the disease4. Note that this makes sense in the light of the data, because the rise in the polio rate occurred slowly, which is what you expect when sanitation is playing a role.

Although these graphs are very effective illustrations of the power of vaccines, as we stated before, they are not definitive evidence. After all, coincidences could explain the graphs. By far, the best evidence of how effective vaccines are comes from controlled studies. In these studies, vaccinated people are compared directly to unvaccinated people, and the results are astounding,

For example, Feikin and others studied all measles and pertussis cases among children (age 3-18) in Colorado from 1987 to 19885. When they compared the vaccinated children to the unvaccinated children, they found that vaccinated children were 22.2 times less likely to contract measles than were the unvaccinated children. In the same way, vaccinated children were 5.9 times less likely to contract pertussis than were unvaccinated children. In other words, according to this study, if you do not vaccinate your children, you have increased their risk of getting measles by 2,220%, and you have increased their risk of getting pertussis by 590%!

Another finding from this study is that schools in which outbreaks occur have 2.9 times the percentage of unvaccinated students as do schools in which outbreaks do not occur. Thus, this study tells us that those who do not vaccinate their children are not only putting their own children in danger, but they are also putting other people’s children in danger, because the larger the number of unvaccinated children in a group setting, the more likely an outbreak is to occur.

But face it, SJ; we're not going to convince them; they'll continue to put their children and other people at risk.
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#767596 --- 03/09/08 02:40 PM Re: To vaccinate or not to vaccinate-that is the ?? [Re: VM Smith]
Strawberry Jam Offline
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Registered: 07/11/04
Posts: 34421
Loc: Herkimer County NY
I understand that, VM. I also think Goingcrazy needs to realize just because we choose to vaccinate our children, does not mean we did not educate ourselves on the vaccinations.

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#767678 --- 03/09/08 05:24 PM Re: To vaccinate or not to vaccinate-that is the ?? [Re: Strawberry Jam]
VM Smith Offline
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Registered: 11/28/05
Posts: 38160
Loc: Ship of Fools
Exactly. Some of us are not afraid of science.
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#767759 --- 03/09/08 06:51 PM Re: To vaccinate or not to vaccinate-that is the ?? [Re: Strawberry Jam]
goingcrazyinny Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 02/05/05
Posts: 1632
Loc: NY
Originally Posted By: Strawberry Jam
I understand that, VM. I also think Goingcrazy needs to realize just because we choose to vaccinate our children, does not mean we did not educate ourselves on the vaccinations.

I'm so sorry SBJ. I didn't realize that something I post on a public forum should be directed to you and only as it applies to you. And here I was under the impression that something posted here could be read by numerous people, some of whom have not yet developed an opinion, or who may not have considered researching what they put in their child's body at the recommendation of government forces.
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#767788 --- 03/09/08 07:30 PM Re: To vaccinate or not to vaccinate-that is the ? [Re: lncooper]
VM Smith Offline
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Registered: 11/28/05
Posts: 38160
Loc: Ship of Fools
"Maybe I missed something, but I haven't seen anyone claim it's a government plot yet. . . not everyone who chooses not to vaccinate is an extremist or conspirarcy theorist."

You didn't miss it; you just hadn't waited long enough:

"or who may not have considered researching what they put in their child's body at the recommendation of government forces."

Next, they'll have legions of evil doctors practicing mind control.
_________________________
If you vote for government, you have no right to complain about what government does.

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#768027 --- 03/10/08 07:06 AM Re: To vaccinate or not to vaccinate-that is the ?? [Re: goingcrazyinny]
Strawberry Jam Offline
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Registered: 07/11/04
Posts: 34421
Loc: Herkimer County NY
Originally Posted By: goingcrazyinny
Originally Posted By: Strawberry Jam
I understand that, VM. I also think Goingcrazy needs to realize just because we choose to vaccinate our children, does not mean we did not educate ourselves on the vaccinations.

I'm so sorry SBJ. I didn't realize that something I post on a public forum should be directed to you and only as it applies to you. And here I was under the impression that something posted here could be read by numerous people, some of whom have not yet developed an opinion, or who may not have considered researching what they put in their child's body at the recommendation of government forces.


I never said it was directed at only me, Goingcrazy. I said "we", meaning those who do choose to vaccinate their children. Not just those who read this board or are replying to the posts. You were assuming that every person who gets their child vaccinated is not educated on the subject.


Originally Posted By: Strawberry Jam
I understand that, VM. I also think Goingcrazy needs to realize just because we choose to vaccinate our children, does not mean we did not educate ourselves on the vaccinations.

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#768101 --- 03/10/08 10:05 AM Re: To vaccinate or not to vaccinate-that is the ? [Re: Strawberry Jam]
TRD_Tacoma Offline
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Registered: 09/19/02
Posts: 12952
Loc: Rochester
Originally Posted By: Strawberry Jam
I would not want to watch my children suffer.


Therefore, a very good reason to ensure your kids are vaccinated against deadly or permenently disabling illnesses.
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#768166 --- 03/10/08 12:38 PM Re: To vaccinate or not to vaccinate-that is the ?? [Re: Strawberry Jam]
goingcrazyinny Offline
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Registered: 02/05/05
Posts: 1632
Loc: NY
I am not assuming that people who vaccinate are not educated on the subject. What I am assuming is that there are more people who go along with immunizations because the doctor says so, than those who research and make an informed decision. In my experience that is a pretty safe assumption. If parents feel that vaccinations are in the best interest of their kids, great for them, but it is often the case that parents do not know all the details, or even that they have a choice to immunize or not.
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#768195 --- 03/10/08 01:25 PM Re: To vaccinate or not to vaccinate-that is the ? [Re: TRD_Tacoma]
Strawberry Jam Offline
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Registered: 07/11/04
Posts: 34421
Loc: Herkimer County NY
Originally Posted By: TRD_Tacoma
Originally Posted By: Strawberry Jam
I would not want to watch my children suffer.


Therefore, a very good reason to ensure your kids are vaccinated against deadly or permenently disabling illnesses.


Exactly.

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#768396 --- 03/10/08 06:53 PM Re: To vaccinate or not to vaccinate-that is the ?? [Re: Strawberry Jam]
lncooper Offline
Member

Registered: 09/12/06
Posts: 68
Originally Posted By: VM Smith
But face it, SJ; we're not going to convince them;


I don't need to be convinced to vaccinate, just like you don't need to be convinced to NOT vaccinate. The only thing ANY of us need to do is do what we feel is best for our children, period. We've each done that. May not be the same thing, but that doesn't necessarily mean either of us is wrong. No need to 'convince' one way or the other.

Originally Posted By: VM Smith
they'll continue to put their children and other people at risk.


Who else are we putting at risk? If your child is vaccinated, and you are that confident in the vaccines, then what harm are we doing to anyone else?

Originally Posted By: Strawberry Jam
I understand that, VM. I also think Goingcrazy needs to realize just because we choose to vaccinate our children, does not mean we did not educate ourselves on the vaccinations.


I know this wasn't directed at me, but I agree that vaccination does not necessarily equate being uneducated, but I think you would agree that most people don't realize that they do have a choice, or the right and responsibility to look into the risks vs benefits of whether or not to vaccinate.

Risks vs benefits aside, do most people you know know that they have a choice in the matter? If they do, then great! But in my personal experience, most of the people I know do not know they have a choice, or reason to look into the risks and benefits of their vaccination decisions.

Are there any typos there you'd like to pick on? I'm sorry if there are. It's hard to type with a wiggly baby on one's lap. . . must be the lack of vaccines making him so unruly! Or maybe it's just my neglectful parenting; since I don't vaccinate, I'm *obviously* a neglectful, bad, ignorant parent, eh? ;\) :P \:\) Now go ahead and say something witty and original about how you think I am!

Seriously people, lighten up! It's just the internet ;\) \:\) Each side understands where the other is coming from. . . can we just agree to disagree and let it go? There really isn't any need to keep bickering over this. . .

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#768503 --- 03/10/08 08:27 PM Re: To vaccinate or not to vaccinate-that is the ?? [Re: lncooper]
TRD_Tacoma Offline
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Registered: 09/19/02
Posts: 12952
Loc: Rochester
Who else are you putting to risk?

One answer I can come up with is your future grandchildren. By failing to innoculate your kids against measles, they could very possibly contract it as adults especially if they visit other countries. I know you will say it is a big "if", but in the event they get pregnant and have the measles, the birth defects can be pretty devestating.
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#768619 --- 03/10/08 10:04 PM Re: To vaccinate or not to vaccinate-that is the ?? [Re: TRD_Tacoma]
lncooper Offline
Member

Registered: 09/12/06
Posts: 68
Originally Posted By: TRD_Tacoma
Who else are you putting to risk?

One answer I can come up with is your future grandchildren. By failing to innoculate your kids against measles, they could very possibly contract it as adults especially if they visit other countries. I know you will say it is a big "if", but in the event they get pregnant and have the measles, the birth defects can be pretty devestating.


It's not like my kids aren't going to know they haven't been vaccinated. I'll raise them the way I see best, just as any other parent, but when they are adults they can make their own decisions for themselves. If *they* feel that it is too big of a risk to not be vaccinated and it fits in with their set of beliefs, then they can choose to get the vaccines any time in their adult life.

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#768913 --- 03/11/08 11:15 AM Re: To vaccinate or not to vaccinate-that is the ?? [Re: lncooper]
Strawberry Jam Offline
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Posts: 34421
Loc: Herkimer County NY
They had two Mother's on the Today show. One was a mother who had three children, she had vaccinated the first two and they were healthy. She chose not to vaccinate the last one, that child went to a birthday party and was exposed to meningitis, luckily her doctor was very astute and they caught it early enough she will not have any lasting problems. The mother now advocates for vaccinations.

The other mother has twin boys, they rec'd their 15 month vaccinations.Shortly there after, they were diagnosed with autism. She now advocates for not vaccinating.

The one person on the panel that made any sense was a pediatrician, who cautioned the loose assosciation (not scientifically proven) of vaccinations to Autism should not be preached as fact. He did advocate for more research in to making vaccinations for all children.

Another peditrician who wants to totally associate vaccinations with autism, didn't really help himself. He said it is more a genetic factor that is the root cause of the autism because of a gene that reacts differently to some additives in vaccinations.

I think the first pediatrician is right on the mark: let's put more money into research. Let's becareful of what we pass off as facts.

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#769276 --- 03/11/08 09:40 PM Re: To vaccinate or not to vaccinate-that is the ? [Re: Strawberry Jam]
Thena Offline
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Registered: 08/16/01
Posts: 2445
Loc: The places of my mind
i have stayed away from this for a long time... and while i did attempt to post a very long reply, i lost power and therefore lost my post.

I will simply say this:
It is no more right for those who choose to vaccinate their children to bash parents who choose not to, as it is for those who choose not to vaccinate to bash parents who do.

I have made the INFORMED choice to DELAY vaccinations. My oldest was fully vaccinated according to the schedule that was out at her time of birth (late 1998)... and i have seen a change, a push, to do more shots sooner... and i don't think it's good for my children's body to be bombarded with so much so quickly.

I have had a child who has had a bad reaction to a vaccination (my middle child, who is considered a preschooler with special needs, and receives services through the school district for such at our local Head Start). Is it just her, or did something happen with her reaction - i don't know... but i do know i have the chance to reduce the risk of my youngest by delaying even for a short time to give his body time to grow and mature and perhaps better handle it.

So for now i have decided to delay for a time the time frame of shots my middle child reacted to until he is 2... the shot specifically i am thinking of (and gets a lot of press) is the MMR. Originally, it was a shot started at age 2 (was when my oldest was that age)... it's now given at 12 months. Will he get all his shots, yes... he has no received all his "scheduled" shots that are due up to age 12 months. So for the MMR at least - he is getting it for when it was intinally intended to be given at.

And personally - i think too many people put too much stock in vaccinations. They have been known to fail, not take (i personally have experienced, i have received a full course of the Hep B vaccination (a full course is 3 shots over a series of 6 months), had the blood work to see if i was innoculaed and i am not, and had a "booster" to try and see if it would take (so a total of 7 Hep B shots) and i am still not immunized.

Anyways... again i repeat - it's no more right for one side of the fence to bash the other...we are ALL only try to do what we believe is best for your children and families with the information we are given


Edited by Thena (03/11/08 09:54 PM)

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#769340 --- 03/12/08 02:56 AM Re: To vaccinate or not to vaccinate-that is the ? [Re: Thena]
sparky's back Offline
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Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 9386
Loc: At Home..in the kitchen!!
Good post Thena
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#769346 --- 03/12/08 03:30 AM Re: To vaccinate or not to vaccinate-that is the ? [Re: Thena]
VM Smith Offline
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Registered: 11/28/05
Posts: 38160
Loc: Ship of Fools
" it's no more right for one side of the fence to bash the other."

You're right, it's wrong to flat out bash, but I don't think it's wrong to hold the opinion that vaccinating makes more sense, and most often offers protection, with little risk, and to feel sorry for the children who aren't vaccinated.


Edited by VM Smith (03/12/08 03:30 AM)
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#769470 --- 03/12/08 09:02 AM Re: To vaccinate or not to vaccinate-that is the ? [Re: Thena]
TRD_Tacoma Offline
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Registered: 09/19/02
Posts: 12952
Loc: Rochester
Thena, it doesn't sound like you are anti-vaccination. I understand your position and where you are coming from. I somehow have a feeling that the reason the recommended age has decreased is because more kids are in daycare at a much younger age then when people my age were. When I was a kid, we didn't go to daycare and really didn't have exposure to many other kids until we started school. By having the vaccines at an earlier age, the doctors are probably hoping to prevent accidental infection due to earlier socialization.
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#769512 --- 03/12/08 09:45 AM Re: To vaccinate or not to vaccinate-that is the ? [Re: TRD_Tacoma]
Strawberry Jam Offline
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Registered: 07/11/04
Posts: 34421
Loc: Herkimer County NY
I think Thena's post shows much education on that matter, not taking things lightly or jumping on the bandwagon to pass rumors on.

That is what I worry the nost, taking something that is not proven to be fact and helping to spread it like wildfire.

Education is key. But, as was pointed about parents not realizing they DO have a choice and going to get vaccinations, it lends to the other way as well.

How many people will hear soemthing "bad" about vaccinations and just decide "nope, not going to do it!" without truly educating themselves at all on the benefits vs the risks? All because people want to say, without scientific proof, vaccinations are harmful.

I commend Thena for taking the steps she has taken.

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#769573 --- 03/12/08 11:32 AM Re: To vaccinate or not to vaccinate-that is the ? [Re: Strawberry Jam]
Thena Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/16/01
Posts: 2445
Loc: The places of my mind
Thank you for seeing that SBJ \:\) And i agree with you saying before that more research needs to be done into the making of new vaccinations (for example - at this point i wouldn't give my daughters the HPV vaccinations. Not cause i think it will make them immoral - but i don't believe there is enough research on the safety of this vaccination yet), as well as in the changing of what age a child gets certain vaccinations. While, as TRD pointed out that it maybe to get them in before day care, etc, doesn't mean that it is safe to do so. Research (independent of those who make these vaccinations, IMHO) is badly needed.

Now if only the information that parents have now wasn't always skewed one way or the other and was always truly objective (and i don't mean this just for vaccinations, but other issues, parenting or not, as well) so that everyone can make a true informed choice, true informed consent. Most of the info on vaccinations I've found have been given out by those that make vaccinations (think the little sheet the Dr gives you at the visit, and that is if they given them to you with time to read BEFORE the shot is given), and it's only been through what I've seen and experienced with my own children and taking everything else with a grain of salt that I've gotten to where I am now.

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