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#766553 --- 03/07/08 02:24 PM Re: To vaccinate or not to vaccinate-that is the ? [Re: lncooper]
TRD_Tacoma Offline
Silver Member

Registered: 09/19/02
Posts: 12952
Loc: Rochester
Originally Posted By: lncooper
Look. This is why I didn't even want to get into how our beliefs influenced our decision. I don't appreciate the remarks implying that my religious beliefs are wrong. I'm not saying they're right for everyone; you (generally speaking) believe whatever you believe in and do it with all your heart, and if you do that, then that's what's right for you. I'd really rather not continue with a great religious debate just to have others tell me what I should or should not believe in, just as I'd really appreciate others not telling me what to do to my children concerning whether or not to vaccinate.

I was just trying to clarify that just because someone chooses not to vaccinate doesn't mean they are ignorant or selective in the information they take in.


You brought religion into the discussion. If you didn't want to go there, then you shouldn't have taken it there.
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#766558 --- 03/07/08 02:28 PM Re: To vaccinate or not to vaccinate-that is the ? [Re: TRD_Tacoma]
TRD_Tacoma Offline
Silver Member

Registered: 09/19/02
Posts: 12952
Loc: Rochester
When I hear people making the excuse that a vaccine isn't something that God gave them and therefore they don't have their children vaccinated against deadly infections, I wonder just how they would feel if their child did get something that could have been prevented by the vaccine?
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#766579 --- 03/07/08 03:09 PM Re: To vaccinate or not to vaccinate-that is the ? [Re: TRD_Tacoma]
lncooper Offline
Member

Registered: 09/12/06
Posts: 68
Originally Posted By: TRD_Tacoma
You brought religion into the discussion. If you didn't want to go there, then you shouldn't have taken it there.


The only reason I 'went there' in the first place is because it feels pretty insulting when others keep saying that those of us who don't vaccinate must be ignorant on the risks and facts, and I was just trying to make a point that for most of us, there is more to it than just numbers.

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#766580 --- 03/07/08 03:12 PM Re: To vaccinate or not to vaccinate-that is the ? [Re: lncooper]
Strawberry Jam Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 07/11/04
Posts: 34421
Loc: Herkimer County NY
Originally Posted By: lncooper
Originally Posted By: Strawberry Jam
I have a small scar on my left arm. My children do not. It is from a smallpox vaccination. I would much rather have that small scar than had to have faced that dreadful disease.


It's not a choice of A) vaccine and maybe a small scar from the shot but guaranteed health or B) no vaccine and definite illness. There is an option C) no vaccine and still have a high likelihood of not getting the illness, especially when you take good care of your general health.


Take a look at some remote thrid world countries without the options of immunizations for all. Something the free world is trying to help with.
It is your right and your choice not to vaccinate your child, no matter why you make that choice as you feel this is protecting your children.

It is also my choice and others, to choose to have had or to have our children vaccinated to protect them.

As much as you say we are hammering on you for your beliefs, you are hammering back, and that is what started the thread in the first place.

I have a friend whose Mother was afflicted with polio. She lived, but now has a permanent limp and great amount of pain. She has lived with this since childhood, and you will not hear her complain. But, her daughter knows the pain she feels.

I would not want to watch my children suffer.

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#766582 --- 03/07/08 03:17 PM Re: To vaccinate or not to vaccinate-that is the ? [Re: TRD_Tacoma]
lncooper Offline
Member

Registered: 09/12/06
Posts: 68
Originally Posted By: TRD_Tacoma
When I hear people making the excuse that a vaccine isn't something that God gave them and therefore they don't have their children vaccinated against deadly infections, I wonder just how they would feel if their child did get something that could have been prevented by the vaccine?


This is definetely something that factors into making the decision. As a parent, NO MATTER WHAT YOU CHOOSE, if something happens to your child, there is always the thoughts of 'what could I have done differently?'

My family is healthy and not immuno-supressed. We have healthy living conditions. They were/are breastfed. We eat mostly natural/organic foods. We have a pretty healthy lifestyle. The chances of any of us getting any of these diseases to the extent that it would have a tragic outcome is very very very rare. I realize that's not a guarantee of anything. The risks of a permanent, tragic outcome from a vaccine is also very rare. I know that. This is especially where our faith factors in, and we just had to make what we felt was the best decision for our family. It's not 'just an excuse.'

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#766583 --- 03/07/08 03:18 PM Re: To vaccinate or not to vaccinate-that is the ? [Re: lncooper]
Strawberry Jam Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 07/11/04
Posts: 34421
Loc: Herkimer County NY
Originally Posted By: lncooper
Originally Posted By: TRD_Tacoma
You brought religion into the discussion. If you didn't want to go there, then you shouldn't have taken it there.


The only reason I 'went there' in the first place is because it feels pretty insulting when others keep saying that those of us who don't vaccinate must be ignorant on the risks and facts, and I was just trying to make a point that for most of us, there is more to it than just numbers.


Well, sorry but "your side" threw the first insult (and Thena and I usually get along pretty well)
Originally Posted By: Thena
i think pumping infant fulls of vaxes before giving their bodies a chance to start building their own immunization is assicine.



It is your choice, yes. You decide. You want to educate on us on why not to vaccinate, and we choose to educate on why you should. Pretty simple. We don't agree.

As far as God, I believe He created those who discovered the way to make vaccinations. I do believe He intends to have diseases and such, but He also gives the gift of scientists and such to find the cures, slow the progression, etc.

It is your right to believe in your religious aspects, but it is also my right to believe they are not what God intended.

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#766587 --- 03/07/08 03:27 PM Re: To vaccinate or not to vaccinate-that is the ? [Re: Strawberry Jam]
lncooper Offline
Member

Registered: 09/12/06
Posts: 68
Originally Posted By: Strawberry Jam
Take a look at some remote thrid world countries without the options of immunizations for all. Something the free world is trying to help with.


Yes, *third world countries* with awful, unsanitary living conditions. Disgusting water. Many people living together in close, dirty shelters. Vaccines *may* help protect them against some of the diseases that obviously run rampant in these conditions, but vaccines alone don't solve what make a third world country a third world county \:\)


Originally Posted By: Strawberry Jam
It is your right and your choice not to vaccinate your child, no matter why you make that choice as you feel this is protecting your children.

It is also my choice and others, to choose to have had or to have our children vaccinated to protect them.


I totally agree. I have never said otherwise.

Originally Posted By: Strawberry Jam
As much as you say we are hammering on you for your beliefs, you are hammering back, and that is what started the thread in the first place.


Can you please show me where I 'hammered' anyone?

I don't think I've been anything but clear in this thread about my beliefs being just that- MY beliefs- and they don't have to be anyone else's, and that I am in total support of each parent making the decision that they feel is best for their children. I have explained some of our personal reasons for not vaccinating simply b/c others have seemed to imply that not vaccinating=ignorance and endangerment.

Originally Posted By: Strawberry Jam
I have a friend whose Mother was afflicted with polio. She lived, but now has a permanent limp and great amount of pain. She has lived with this since childhood, and you will not hear her complain. But, her daughter knows the pain she feels.


Counting back the generations, yes, that was a time when polio was an awful disease, and I'm sorry for what she has to live with as a result.

Originally Posted By: Strawberry Jam
I would not want to watch my children suffer.


Neither would I. Again, it's not a choice of suffer or don't suffer, and just because I don't vaccinate doesn't mean that I'm not doing other things to help protect them.

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#766589 --- 03/07/08 03:31 PM Re: To vaccinate or not to vaccinate-that is the ? [Re: Strawberry Jam]
lncooper Offline
Member

Registered: 09/12/06
Posts: 68
Originally Posted By: Strawberry Jam

Well, sorry but "your side" threw the first insult


I don't think Thena meant it as an insult. I don't know her personally, and obviously I can't speak on her behalf, but that's not how I read her comment. Even so, *I* didn't say it. . .

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#766664 --- 03/07/08 06:31 PM Re: To vaccinate or not to vaccinate-that is the ? [Re: lncooper]
Strawberry Jam Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 07/11/04
Posts: 34421
Loc: Herkimer County NY
Originally Posted By: lncooper
Originally Posted By: Strawberry Jam

Well, sorry but "your side" threw the first insult


I don't think Thena meant it as an insult. I don't know her personally, and obviously I can't speak on her behalf, but that's not how I read her comment. Even so, *I* didn't say it. . .


No you didn't say it, but you did lump all of us together that choose to vaccinate into being "insultive".

Third world countires are not the only places that are dirty and unsanitary. We have our own places that are below the poverty line and have had places that have had sanitary problems. Not an insult to New Orleans at all here, but look what happened after Katrina, and much work is needed there to clean it up.

Vaccinations are important. It is what has decreased diseases such as polio and such.

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#767500 --- 03/09/08 12:51 PM Re: To vaccinate or not to vaccinate-that is the ? [Re: Strawberry Jam]
goingcrazyinny Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 02/05/05
Posts: 1632
Loc: NY
Lcooper and I are on the same page on this one. We are not necessarily advocating for not having your child(ren) vaccinated, but simply to educate yourselves on the potential effects of the vaccines as opposed to the potential risks of not vaccinating and make an informed, educated decision about how you want to approach the health and wellness of your family.

Don't assume that doctors know what is in the best interest of your health, but seek out your own information from various sources, then choose. This should apply in everything health related, not just vaccinations (vitamins, supplements, flouride treatments, preventative treatments, or general health).
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#767522 --- 03/09/08 01:24 PM Re: To vaccinate or not to vaccinate-that is the ? [Re: lncooper]
VM Smith Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 11/28/05
Posts: 38160
Loc: Ship of Fools
"I think it's awfully petty to say what someone says isn't credible based on a typo"

Typo? Even if the "c" is replaced with an "n", it's still misspelled.

Here's another one:

"pressume"

Did you get a large box of esses for xmas, that you feel you must use up before they spoil?


Edited by VM Smith (03/09/08 01:54 PM)
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#767536 --- 03/09/08 01:40 PM Re: To vaccinate or not to vaccinate-that is the ? [Re: Strawberry Jam]
VM Smith Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 11/28/05
Posts: 38160
Loc: Ship of Fools
Here's a great short article on the effectiveness of vaccines. I would have copied it, but it's got some neat graphs that support the text:

http://www.apologia.com/vaccines/vac_effective.html
_________________________
If you vote for government, you have no right to complain about what government does.

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#767547 --- 03/09/08 01:51 PM Re: To vaccinate or not to vaccinate-that is the ? [Re: lncooper]
VM Smith Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 11/28/05
Posts: 38160
Loc: Ship of Fools
"*Healing* is different than *prevention* in my book"

I'd rather prevent a broken arm than heal it, and I feel the same way about polio.

My father was paralyzed on his right side from polio for 10 days. He mostly recovered, but it bothered him for life. The vaccine came when I was 3, and I am thankful that my parents were smart enough to have me vaccinated.
_________________________
If you vote for government, you have no right to complain about what government does.

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#767559 --- 03/09/08 01:57 PM Re: To vaccinate or not to vaccinate-that is the ?? [Re: goingcrazyinny]
Strawberry Jam Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 07/11/04
Posts: 34421
Loc: Herkimer County NY
This post does not reflect a stance to just "educate" people. Especially the big "NOT!" to start it off and rhe "WTF" about the chicken pox vaccine.


Originally Posted By: goingcrazyinny
NOT!!!!!!
http://www.vaclib.org/exempt/newyork.htm
Vaccinations (PLEASE do not call them immunizations, they do NOT guarantee immunity) actually weaken your immune system. Not only do they contain DNA particles and any number of other cross-contaminants, they contain preservatives like ANTIFREEZE, ALUMINUM, and FORMELDAHYDE (sp?). And sure, they say they don't make vaccines with MERCURY anymore, but the ones that WERE made with mercury are still out there and being used up- just not on my children ;\)

Even if they could make a vaccine without any of these preservatives or additives, I personally still would not inject my children with them. Our immune systems become stronger as they develop their own naturally formed antibodies.


Many people credit modern medicine with improved maternity rates and disease control. This is really not modern medicine's doing! It's because of the improvements in basic sanitation, standards of living, and general health. If you look back at ANY disease throughout history, they all have their own natural pattern of rising and falling, and the diseases that are typically vaccinated against today were already on the natural decline when the vaccines came into use. Yes, vaccines may have sped up the decline process, but at what cost? Weakened immune systems, allergic reactions, autism, learning disabilities?

And WTF is with the chicken pox vaccine people?!?! Seriously. It has one of the lowest effectivity rates, and what little bit of 'immunity' it may provide is only a TEMPORARY immunity. A chicken pox vaccine means that to continue to receive 'protection' your child will need booster shots for his or her whole life. Now let's be honest here: as an adult, when's the last time you've gone in for a booster shot? Children vaccinated with the chicken pox vaccine are not going to be likely to keep up on it as adults, and because the 'protection' the shot gives is only temporary, they will be left with little defenses against it as an adult, and we all know that chicken pox is MUCH more serious to catch as an adult, as opposed to catching it when you're a child, which is typically pretty mild. Chicken pox was a 'right of passage,' if you will, for my generation and generations before mine; why we are vaccinating against this normal, common, rarely deadly childhood disease?

Also, most people forget that you don't need to be actively sick to have acheived natural immunity.

So, back to where I started: you do NOT need to have your child vaccinated for school. We ALL have federally guaranteed rights that allow us to make our own medical decisions and practice our own beliefs. Federally guaranteed rights trump any state laws (which all have exemptions anyways). Many states won't 'allow' for a philosophical exemption, but it is worth noting that there have been numerous cases where parents' personal beliefs have been considered acceptable for religious exemption, and you don't need to be a member of an organized religion for a religious exemption, either.

It just amazes- and scares- me how many people don't realize this. You DO have a choice, and there's a REASON you have choice: because there are very real risks that come along with choosing to vaccinate. Everyone has to make the choices that are right for their own family. I don't look down on anyone who chooses to vaccinate because they feel it's best for their family, and I don't expect to be looked down on by anyone because we choose not to vaccinate because that's what we feel is safest for our family. But I do feel badly for anyone who 'chooses' to vaccinate without all of the information, and for anyone who doesn't realize that they even have a choice or reason to need to choose.



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#767563 --- 03/09/08 02:01 PM Re: To vaccinate or not to vaccinate-that is the ? [Re: lncooper]
VM Smith Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 11/28/05
Posts: 38160
Loc: Ship of Fools
"If it makes sense to you and is what's right for your family, then yes, it does make sense and that's all that matters"

Some think that way that about serpent handling; I think they're just plain ignorant.
_________________________
If you vote for government, you have no right to complain about what government does.

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#767578 --- 03/09/08 02:10 PM Re: To vaccinate or not to vaccinate-that is the ?? [Re: Strawberry Jam]
Strawberry Jam Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 07/11/04
Posts: 34421
Loc: Herkimer County NY

You want education? Here ya go.

Originally Posted By: goingcrazyinny


And WTF is with the chicken pox vaccine people?!?! Seriously. It has one of the lowest effectivity rates, and what little bit of 'immunity' it may provide is only a TEMPORARY immunity. A chicken pox vaccine means that to continue to receive 'protection' your child will need booster shots for his or her whole life. Now let's be honest here: as an adult, when's the last time you've gone in for a booster shot? Children vaccinated with the chicken pox vaccine are not going to be likely to keep up on it as adults, and because the 'protection' the shot gives is only temporary, they will be left with little defenses against it as an adult, and we all know that chicken pox is MUCH more serious to catch as an adult, as opposed to catching it when you're a child, which is typically pretty mild. Chicken pox was a 'right of passage,' if you will, for my generation and generations before mine; why we are vaccinating against this normal, common, rarely deadly childhood disease?


Can a healthy person who gets varicella die from the disease?
Yes. Many of the deaths and complications from chickenpox occur in previously healthy children and adults. From 1990 to 1994, before a vaccine was available, about 50 children and 50 adults died from chickenpox every year; most of these persons were healthy or did not have a medical illness (such as cancer) that placed them at higher risk of getting severe chickenpox. Since 1999, states have been encouraged to report chickenpox deaths to CDC. These reports have shown that some deaths from chickenpox continue to occur in healthy, unvaccinated children and adults. Most of the healthy adults who died from chickenpox contracted the disease from their unvaccinated children.


http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd-vac/varicella/dis-faqs-gen.htm

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#767589 --- 03/09/08 02:21 PM Re: To vaccinate or not to vaccinate-that is the ?? [Re: Strawberry Jam]
VM Smith Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 11/28/05
Posts: 38160
Loc: Ship of Fools
From the article I linked above:


There is one other very important thing to note from the graphs. Anti-vaccination advocates often try to explain the dramatic decrease in vaccine-preventable diseases in terms of increased sanitation. They say that these disease rates are so low because we have developed better sanitary practices over the years. However, these graphs show that this is just not true. After all, the polio disease rates decreased dramatically in the late 1950s. However, the measles rates did not decrease dramatically for another 10 years. If good sanitary practices were responsible for the drop in disease rates, you should see the disease rates fall roughly at the same time. Thatís just not the case. The disease rates fell only when vaccines were tested and then approved. Also, note the short time over which the disease rates fell so dramatically. Do sanitation practices change so quickly that they completely "clean up" a country in a matter of a few years? Definitely not! Improved sanitation just does not explain the data.

In fact, most medical historians blame increased sanitation for the rise in polio from 1944 to 1952. When sanitary practices were rather poor, people were regularly exposed to small amounts of the polio virus, usually when they were babies and therefore had the extra protection given to them by the antibodies they received through their mothersí milk. Their immune systems were able to conquer the weak exposure to the virus with the help of their mothersí antibodies, and thus they became immune. As a result, the poor sanitation was actually acting like a "dirty" vaccine! As sanitary practices improved, fewer people were exposed to small amounts of the virus as infants. As a result, when they were exposed to concentrated amounts of the virus (from a person who already had the disease, for example), they would succumb to the disease4. Note that this makes sense in the light of the data, because the rise in the polio rate occurred slowly, which is what you expect when sanitation is playing a role.

Although these graphs are very effective illustrations of the power of vaccines, as we stated before, they are not definitive evidence. After all, coincidences could explain the graphs. By far, the best evidence of how effective vaccines are comes from controlled studies. In these studies, vaccinated people are compared directly to unvaccinated people, and the results are astounding,

For example, Feikin and others studied all measles and pertussis cases among children (age 3-18) in Colorado from 1987 to 19885. When they compared the vaccinated children to the unvaccinated children, they found that vaccinated children were 22.2 times less likely to contract measles than were the unvaccinated children. In the same way, vaccinated children were 5.9 times less likely to contract pertussis than were unvaccinated children. In other words, according to this study, if you do not vaccinate your children, you have increased their risk of getting measles by 2,220%, and you have increased their risk of getting pertussis by 590%!

Another finding from this study is that schools in which outbreaks occur have 2.9 times the percentage of unvaccinated students as do schools in which outbreaks do not occur. Thus, this study tells us that those who do not vaccinate their children are not only putting their own children in danger, but they are also putting other peopleís children in danger, because the larger the number of unvaccinated children in a group setting, the more likely an outbreak is to occur.

But face it, SJ; we're not going to convince them; they'll continue to put their children and other people at risk.
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If you vote for government, you have no right to complain about what government does.

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#767596 --- 03/09/08 02:40 PM Re: To vaccinate or not to vaccinate-that is the ?? [Re: VM Smith]
Strawberry Jam Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 07/11/04
Posts: 34421
Loc: Herkimer County NY
I understand that, VM. I also think Goingcrazy needs to realize just because we choose to vaccinate our children, does not mean we did not educate ourselves on the vaccinations.

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#767678 --- 03/09/08 05:24 PM Re: To vaccinate or not to vaccinate-that is the ?? [Re: Strawberry Jam]
VM Smith Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 11/28/05
Posts: 38160
Loc: Ship of Fools
Exactly. Some of us are not afraid of science.
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If you vote for government, you have no right to complain about what government does.

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#767759 --- 03/09/08 06:51 PM Re: To vaccinate or not to vaccinate-that is the ?? [Re: Strawberry Jam]
goingcrazyinny Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 02/05/05
Posts: 1632
Loc: NY
Originally Posted By: Strawberry Jam
I understand that, VM. I also think Goingcrazy needs to realize just because we choose to vaccinate our children, does not mean we did not educate ourselves on the vaccinations.

I'm so sorry SBJ. I didn't realize that something I post on a public forum should be directed to you and only as it applies to you. And here I was under the impression that something posted here could be read by numerous people, some of whom have not yet developed an opinion, or who may not have considered researching what they put in their child's body at the recommendation of government forces.
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