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#580451 --- 05/22/07 09:55 PM Cayuga settlement offer - has anyone heard ?
Rich_Tallcot Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/19/03
Posts: 5565
Loc: Greeneville, TN
Received a call from the Auburn Citizen tonight asking what my comment was on the 10,000 acres limit on a Cayuga reservation and casino deal regarding their fee to trust applications.

Seems there has been MORE behind closed door negotiations after the fact without a land claim to even settle.

I told her there was no land claim to settle and IGRA didn't have a casino exception for trust applications on lands purchased after 1988. The Citizen replied that the Cayuga tribe claims their land claim is still alive, that it was only settled in the courts.

It would seem humerous if it weren't for the idiot politcians in this state that want to screw us over for a dollar and a dream.

Then there are those that are scared if we don't make a deal, we might lose it all. Hmmmm. I've heard that before.

Seems the Harris Beach law firm didn't make enough money on the land claim that only lasted 26 years.

Reply to uce@rochester.rr.com

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#580604 --- 05/23/07 08:34 AM Re: Cayuga settlement offer - has anyone heard ? [Re: Rich_Tallcot]
Mysteryman Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/08/04
Posts: 2173
Loc: laughing in your face
Not for nothing but it was inevitable that there would be a settlement.

The revenue from this hopefully will relieve some of the burden on the taxpayers.

There is no state income tax in the state of Nevada.

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#580798 --- 05/23/07 02:48 PM Re: Cayuga settlement offer - has anyone heard ? [Re: Rich_Tallcot]
justaxme Offline
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Registered: 08/31/05
Posts: 2351
Loc: On top?
"I expected more development, more spin-offs," he said. "This is a small, depressed city (Niagara falls, NY). There are no jobs; the young people leave. Nobody wants to invest here."

We, and now Seneca and Cayuga counties can look forward to the same.

http://www.news-register.net/News/articles.asp?articleID=19780

Professional lifetime politicians, a few indian chiefs, lawyers and a couple developers are the only winners.


Edited by justaxme (05/23/07 02:49 PM)
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#580839 --- 05/23/07 03:27 PM Re: Cayuga settlement offer - has anyone heard ? [Re: justaxme]
LittleKing Offline
Member

Registered: 05/08/01
Posts: 168
This deal may not save the counties but I somehow doubt the fifteen million will make them worse off.

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#580901 --- 05/23/07 06:03 PM Re: Cayuga settlement offer - has anyone heard ? [Re: LittleKing]
Laker Offline
Member

Registered: 04/13/00
Posts: 239
Loc: SF, NY USA
folks - not again. this governor is as dumb as the last.

Doesn't any one get it. Casinos are just another means of taxing you. Go stick your nickel/quarter into a slot machine and the state and tribe will collect it from you. I guess you must feel better about paying the tax than getting the bill in the mail and writing a check.

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#580911 --- 05/23/07 06:35 PM Re: Cayuga settlement offer - has anyone heard ? [Re: Laker]
justaxme Offline
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Registered: 08/31/05
Posts: 2351
Loc: On top?
Originally Posted By: Laker
folks - not again. this governor is as dumb as the last.

Doesn't any one get it. Casinos are just another means of taxing you. Go stick your nickel/quarter into a slot machine and the state and tribe will collect it from you. I guess you must feel better about paying the tax than getting the bill in the mail and writing a check.


And who are these clowns that have negotiated a "deal" in secret with no public input, behind closed doors (with their hands out) and that they will now be trying to cram down our throats?
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#580931 --- 05/23/07 07:44 PM Re: Cayuga settlement offer - has anyone heard ? [Re: justaxme]
Driver8 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/19/00
Posts: 1081
Loc: Seneca Falls
A prediction: the rednecks and bigots will find a way to torpedo this deal. The Cayugas will then turn around, apply to the federal government and get the casino anyway. The only difference will be that instead of $15 million we won't get anything.

Talcott, Richie and the rest will pat themselves on the back for screwing the rest of us out of this money and then move out of state when their property taxes get too high.

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#580937 --- 05/23/07 08:11 PM Re: Cayuga settlement offer - has anyone heard ? [Re: Driver8]
justaxme Offline
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Registered: 08/31/05
Posts: 2351
Loc: On top?
i love the responses from the pro casino folks. If you aren't for the casinos your a "redneck or bigot".
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#580955 --- 05/23/07 08:50 PM Re: Cayuga settlement offer - has anyone heard ? [Re: justaxme]
Rich_Tallcot Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/19/03
Posts: 5565
Loc: Greeneville, TN
Originally Posted By: justaxme
And who are these clowns that have negotiated a "deal" in secret with no public input, behind closed doors (with their hands out) and that they will now be trying to cram down our throats?


UCE is working on an official press release that may be a few days before finalized. All I've had to work with is the official "joint" press release and newspaper articles. Neither the Cayuga Co. attorney, chairman, or legislators were involved and were only handed a summary three days ago by Harris Beach. None of them have even seen the proposal and the devil is always in the details.

Hopefully they'll have a chance to read it before being asked to vote on it, UNlike the proposed settlements of yesteryear.

I know Dave Dresser, the Seneca Co. Land Claim Committee Chairman, is in favor of it. I'm guessing Harris Beach was paid by the state to work out another casino deal.

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#581288 --- 05/24/07 01:11 PM Re: Cayuga settlement offer - has anyone heard ? [Re: Rich_Tallcot]
Don Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/12/00
Posts: 1854
Loc: Seneca Falls, NY
This is crap. The Supreme Court rules one way so the Cayugas go back door to the BIA. I say we fight them again tooth and nail. Everytime they try to find a loophole we should be there to shut it down. A lawsuit against the federal government might be in order. Instead, our politicians are figuring out how to divvy up $15 million.

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#581332 --- 05/24/07 02:41 PM Re: Cayuga settlement offer - has anyone heard ? [Re: LittleKing]
justaxme Offline
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Registered: 08/31/05
Posts: 2351
Loc: On top?
Originally Posted By: LittleKing
This deal may not save the counties but I somehow doubt the fifteen million will make them worse off.


Better make sure you know where this $15 million (pocket change) is going:

"When the Seneca Niagara came to his community, Anderson said, he saw it as an opportunity to fix the streets and sidewalks of the decaying city. In September, the Seneca Nation presented New York state officials with more than $68 million as part of the state’s revenue share payment agreement. But Anderson said “politics” have kept that money from helping the city."
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#581498 --- 05/24/07 11:06 PM Re: Cayuga settlement offer - has anyone heard ? [Re: Don]
Rich_Tallcot Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/19/03
Posts: 5565
Loc: Greeneville, TN
Originally Posted By: Don
This is crap. I say we fight them again tooth and nail.


Don, I'm with you and we're not alone. As Wisner Kinne said, "Fight Like Hell".

This proposal has so many holes in it, one couldn't hit it with a shotgun. Details later - not enough minutes in a day.

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#581980 --- 05/26/07 07:34 AM Re: Cayuga settlement offer - has anyone heard ? [Re: Rich_Tallcot]
Gio Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 08/01/03
Posts: 16476
Loc: Cleveland
What is the economic condition of the non-indian businesses and residents in the imediate area of Turning Stone? How did the school district that Turning Stone is in make out with having the casino? How many new jobs and "support" businesses were created when Turning Stone started?
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#582385 --- 05/28/07 05:50 AM Re: Cayuga settlement offer - has anyone heard ? [Re: Gio]
Rich_Tallcot Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/19/03
Posts: 5565
Loc: Greeneville, TN
What is the economic condition of the non-indian businesses and residents in the imediate area of Turning Stone? How did the school district that Turning Stone is in make out with having the casino? How many new jobs and "support" businesses were created when Turning Stone started?
_________________________

The non-Indian businesses in the immediate area, convenience stores have all either been shut down or bought off by the tribe. Locally, the one in Union Springs lost 84% of it's business, which is why it will not reopen thanks to Governor Spitzer. The restaurants were also affected and some have been bought by the tribe. Grocery stores are also losing business. No non-tribal marinas on the end of the lake the Turning Stone is on sell gas anymore. The county coroner's business is booming and he sometimes needs help, but he's been told not to brag about all the new business he's received thanks to the Turning Stone.

As to "support" businesses, well let's see, they all received letters telling them they had to support Halbritter's applications to place 17,000 acres into federal trust or lose their business with the resort. Assemblywoman RoAnn DeStito's husband got a contract with the tribe, that's one job created. Maybe that's why she isn't as vocal as Townsend. Oh, and the sales tax there is ten percent now to make up for the businesses that were lost that used to pay into the tax structure and loss in property taxes. The school distrrict get silver trinket awards donated to it at a fraction of what the taxes would be and such donations have been witheld in the past.

Two days ago, Assemblyman Townsend held a news conference at Arnott's grocery store at the corner of Route 31 and Main Street in Verona, urging the Nation to "start paying property taxes" and appealing to Gov. Eliot Spitzer to follow through on his plan to collect sales taxes from Indian enterprises across the state.

He said the Arnott's site was selected for the news conference as "just an example of a...family business trying to stay alive...hang on," while paying regular taxes in the face of the Nation's competitive advantage from not making such payments.

"This is costing local residents and businesses millions and millions of dollars," Townsend said. "We are calling on Ray Halbritter to finally live up to his words as a good neighbor and start paying property taxes they owe."

Townsend said the nation owes $248 million in property and sales taxes.

Also speaking in agreement with Townsend were county legislator Michael Hennessy, D-2, Sherrill, and representatives of Citizens Equal Rights Alliance, Empire State Restaurant and Tavern Association and Central New York Fair Business Association.

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#582655 --- 05/29/07 06:34 AM Re: Cayuga settlement offer - has anyone heard ? [Re: Don]
Laker Offline
Member

Registered: 04/13/00
Posts: 239
Loc: SF, NY USA
There's a difference this time," said Cayuga attorney Dan French.

"When the courts threw out the Cayuga judgment and land claim, they also took away the Seneca-Cayugas' standing as a successor in interest," said French.

"There is no claim. You can't be a successor of interest to nothing," French said .


Edited by Laker (05/29/07 06:38 AM)

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#582810 --- 05/29/07 04:28 PM Re: Cayuga settlement offer - has anyone heard ? [Re: Laker]
grinch Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/28/01
Posts: 4617
Loc: New York State
He has it right however he should have expanded on that and included the Cayuga faction out of Buffalo. They have an interest in nothing.

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#583918 --- 05/31/07 09:00 PM Re: Cayuga settlement offer - has anyone heard ? [Re: Rich_Tallcot]
Rich_Tallcot Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/19/03
Posts: 5565
Loc: Greeneville, TN
Upstate Citizens for Equality (UCE) is opposed to the Cayuga Trust Land settlement.

Recently lawyers from Governor Spitzer's office, the Harris Beach law firm that is supposed to be protecting the counties from Indian claims, Cayuga spokesman Clint Halftown's lawyer (Dan French, who by the way is not the lawyer for the Cayuga tribe. The lawyer for the Cayuga tribe is Joe Heath, who is opposing the proposed "deal") and a few others made another behind closed door negotiation to create a 10,000 acre Cayuga reservation in six parcels spread over two counties in exchange for the Cayuga tribe dropping their trust applications and not filing any more.

Some politicians caught the "we can't win disease" and were prescribed Alice in Wonderland's Magic pill and things aren't as they appear. This effort to place a cap on how much trust land a tribe can apply for throws the laundry out with the wash water.

UCE opposes this because the trust land applications circumventing the loss of the Cayuga land claim to create a reservation in an attempt to qualify for a casino can be defeated in the courts. There are lawsuits in process challenging the applicability of trust lands to the colony states that have a good chance of winning. If trust land status is ruled to be illegal in the colony states, any trust land forcibly established in the meantime would be rescinded and revert back to what it was. This deal of allowing the Cayuga tribe 10,000 acres of restricted fee land instead of trust land, which the Cayuga know they could lose in court, would not qualify to revert back to fee simple taxable status when the anti-trust lawsuits win.

Trust lands for tribes were authorized for public domain lands under the 1934 Indian Reorganization Act (IRA). The IRA gave tribes one year, later extended to two years to vote on accepting or rejecting the Act's provision. 258 elections were held, 181 accepted and 77 rejected. Groups rejecting the IRA included the Hopi, who saw it as culturally alien, and the "fiercely independent" Iroquois tribes, which include the Cayuga.

The Commissioner of Indian Affairs, John Collier, warned the tribes that those who reject the Act must reject all of it and do not have the trust period automatically extended. Alleged pro-Communist John Collier was the author of the IRA and was at odds with Congress, which removed or modified most of the original IRA in the Wheeler-Howard Bill authorizing its implementation.

The original IRA authorized landless tribes to use their own funds to purchase lands for trust applications. In the Wheeler-Howard Bill, Congress removed that authorization and limited any purchasing of lands to Congress. Furthermore, the stipulation was included that such tribe must not be affiliated with any tribe that still had land upon which they may settle. The Cayuga have such lands on the Seneca Cattaraugus Reservation.

Congress has appropriated no funds for purchasing lands for the Cayuga. The Cayuga rejected the Act and have lands for their use with an affiliated tribe.

Furthermore, the Secretary of the Interior does not have the authority to impose Indian reservations within this State and Congress, itself, has no Constitutional power to do so. There never were federal public domain lands or federal reservations here to revert back. Plus, the State can't simply give land to an Indian tribe. State law (Section 10) forbids the Governor from diminishing the State's sovereignty for any reason; federal Indian law only allows for land to be given to a tribe if the tribe drops a pending land claim in exchange for such a settlement. There is no land claim.

UCE maintains that the reference in Sherrill to Trust Lands was dictum, and merely showed that the court considered all possibilities. They could not address that issue because it was not part of the lawsuit. That reference made no ruling, gave no such authority, and made no promises. The Court's reasoning for ruling the way it did emphasized the "disruptive" effects that would result from it. Nothing has changed.

Currently, a 1954 permanent easement to the State for the Thruway is being "rescinded" by the Senecas because they feel like taxing cars at $1 per car - despite the finality of the 1954 agreement. There is no such thing as a permanent fix unless and until the government recognizes that all citizens should be equal under the law.

State Assemblyman Dave Townsend recently urged people to send letters to the Oneida tribe requesting they start paying taxes on their lands, as ruled upon by the U.S. Supreme Court. But the tribes aren't so much the problem as are our own local, state and federal officials who promote racial divides and refuse to enforce existing laws. Those letters should have been directed at elected officials.

UCE maintains that tribes in New York could not win a trust land battle in the courts and if it weren't for UCE pushing and a few honorable politicians we wouldn't have defeated the tribe's 1980 land claim lawsuit and won.

The fundamental issue here is not casinos or how much money may go to the counties or state. At issue is the sanctity of our state's sovereignty and the U.S. Constitution. Let the Department of Interior make their decision so we can fight it in the courts.

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#584067 --- 06/01/07 07:45 AM Re: Cayuga settlement offer - has anyone heard ? [Re: Rich_Tallcot]
justaxme Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/31/05
Posts: 2351
Loc: On top?
Did King Tim L and his developer buddy go to Albany so they could discuss the Mayors cut in this casino if he helps cram it down our throats? Sounds like he has made this decision without any "OPEN" discussion with the city or county citizens. He is a typical professional lifetime politician that figures he knows what is best for us even though they don't ask or listen.
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#584488 --- 06/01/07 03:50 PM Re: Cayuga settlement offer - has anyone heard ? [Re: justaxme]
grinch Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/28/01
Posts: 4617
Loc: New York State
Here are a few excerpts from recent Federal and State Court opinions involving sovereign immunity of Indian Tribes. the courts are starting to understand the absurdity of court established sovereign immunity. Things are and will change rapidly as the current Indian doctrine is not sustainable.



"Tribal sovereign immunity - the legal principle that Indian tribal governments, like other sovereigns, may not be sued without their own consent - is under a full frontal attack. Consider these passages from recent federal and state court opinions:

Tribal immunity is ''divorced from the realities of the modern world.''

''[H]opefully [tribes] will eventually conclude that this litigation tactic [of asserting sovereign immunity] is not the best policy to promote a profitable business.''

''[T]he constitutional right of the State to preserve its republican form of government trumps the common law doctrine of tribal immunity""


The Seneca and Cayuga CO Boards of supervisors should pay attention to what is happening in Indian Affairs throughout the country and not be quick to accept proposals being hawked by those who stand to gain by them. That includes the empty promises to provide a cut (bribe) from projected casino revenues to the counties if they agree to the most recent proposal.

For the large amount of revenue being discussed in that proposal to be available it is obvious they will need to locate a casino nearer to a large center of population, NYC for instance. There is no reason to promise Seneca and Cayuga CO any phantom money, remember this is projected money that may never materialize if there is no casino. Offering such sums is a blatant bribe to diffuse local opposition to establishing a land base that would be free of taxes and local law. In essence they are asking for a settlement of a non existent land claim as that is the easiest way they might establish sovereignty that is necessary to open a casino.

And that can create any number of problems for local governmental jurisdictions. Take a moment to read the Indian Times or Today in Indian County and read of the myriad law suits being filed, currently in the courts or recently ruled on by the courts.


The BIA's authority to take land into trust or fee status in New York State is highly suspect and should be tested in court before any proposal to establish sovereignty for individual groups is approved.

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#586287 --- 06/05/07 03:40 PM Re: Cayuga settlement offer - has anyone heard ? [Re: grinch]
grinch Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/28/01
Posts: 4617
Loc: New York State
Mr. Dresser chairman of the Indian Affairs committee for Seneca CO recently said and I quote:


"Federal Indian policy is fundamentally flawed. Both law and statute support tribal sovereignty, an arrangement that promotes segregation on the basis of race, deprives Native Americans living on reservations of their constitutional rights and exempts them from following regulations that apply to other citizens. Many feel this special treatment violates the 14th Amendment to our Constitution "

I believe in that statement and I continue to support the concept of racial equality. Reservations are a product of the 1800's and have no place in today's society. It is a disservice to the Indian and to all other citizens of this country.


Many years ago I attended a meeting at the NYSC campus and we were told by the US Justice department to either support the governments position on the Cayuga claim or lose all 64000 acres plus possibly our homes.. In a private conversation when a State official was questioned over one of the many proposals to provide trust land to the Cayuga he remarked" Do not rock the boat".


Many of us did not support that position then and we do not now., Time has proven the government was wrong and the Cayuga Claim was dismissed by the courts.


I hold firm to my belief that Indian sovereignty is wrong, must be curtailed, not expanded.


The authority of the BIA to take New York State land into trust or restricted fee status should be tested in court. By agreeing to the most recent proposal they avoid the crucial court test of that authority.

It is my opinion this latest proposal from those who stand to gain by it is not a compromise, but complete surrender.

The Cayuga have been paid 8 different times for that land and I remain opposed to any offer to the Cayugas.

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