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#579957 --- 05/21/07 09:24 PM Another Land Claim Bites the Dust
Rich_Tallcot Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/19/03
Posts: 5565
Loc: Greeneville, TN
http://blog.syracuse.com/news/2007/05/judge_rejects_oneida_land_clai.html

From the Syracuse Post Standard

Judge rejects Oneidas' claim for land
Posted by Glenn Coin May 21, 2007 1:34PM
Categories: Breaking News, Cayuga County, Government, Madison County

A federal judge today rejected the Oneida Indian Nation's claim to land in Central New York, but said the Oneidas may deserve to be paid retroactively for the low prices the state paid more than 100 years ago.

U.S. District Court Judge Lawrence Kahn said it would be too disruptive to give back to the Oneidas the land they say was taken illegally from them in the 18th and 19th centuries. But Kahn did side with the Oneidas in ruling that the state paid the Oneidas just a fraction of what the land was worth on the open market.

The Oneidas say they were underpaid by about $500,000. With inflation, they say, they are owed $500 million today. The decision will almost certainly be appealed. In his ruling, in fact, Kahn gave lawyers the go-ahead to appeal to the 2nd U.S. District Court of Appeals.

The land claim was filed in 1974. Three tribes of Oneidas claim that about 250,000 acres in Madison and Oneida counties was bought from them illegally.

Staff writer Glenn Coin will have a full report in Tuesday's Post-Standard.

---------------------------------------------
From UticaOD.com
JUDGE KAHN'S RULING
Posted: May 21. 2007 3:57PM

Judge: Oneidas can't obtain land through claim


U.S. District Court Judge Lawrence E. Kahn today barred the Oneida Indian Nation from regaining property through the Nation's 33-year-old land-claim lawsuit.

"Past injustices suffered by the Oneidas cannot be remedied by creating present and future injustices," Kahn wrote in his ruling.

But Kahn's ruling left open the possibility that the Oneidas could seek redress including monetary compensation approaching $500 million for injustices committed against it when the state bought most of the Oneidas' land more than 150 years ago.

Kahn ruled after New York state and Oneida and Madison counties sought dismissal of the Oneidasí land claim, first filed in federal court in 1974. They cited the U.S. Supreme Court ruling in 2005 that said Sherrill could tax Nation property, and also on a federal court ruling limiting the Cayuga Indian Nation's land claim.

Kahn acknowledged these two cases are important precedents now.

"The courts have held themselves open to Plaintiffs' land claims for generations, however, recent legal developments raise the possibility that this Court might be compelled to close its doors now," Kahn wrote. "The Court does not believe that the higher courts intended to or have barred Plaintiffs from receiving any relief; to do so would deny the Oneidas the right to seek redress for long-suffered wrongs."

But he also acknowledged that other federal district courts have ruled differently on land-claim issues, and he gave the parties 10 days to file an immediate appeal of his ruling.

While the Nation lost out on its right to obtain property through its land claim, it issued a statement focusing on other aspects of Kahn's ruling.

"The Oneida people are gratified by the federal court ruling today," the Nation's statement said. "Although one count was dismissed, the land claim is alive and well and has a value exceeding a half a billion dollars. The court has reaffirmed that the transactions that took the Oneida land were illegal."

In his ruling, Kahn notes that the state entered into an agreement with the Oneidas on Sept. 15, 1795, to purchase about 100,000 acres of land. The state paid about 50 cents per acre but obtained seven times that amount when it resold the land to white settlers," Kahn said.

"The Court finds that Plaintiffs have adequately met their burden and have raised material facts as to the inadequacy of the consideration paid to the Oneida Indian Nation and the State's knowledge with respect to those payments," Kahn wrote.

The ruling concluded, "As explained above, the Second Circuit's Cayuga decision holds that equity bars the Oneidas' attempts to vindicate their rights to the lands promised to them by the United States and the State because of the disruption that would be caused to Defendants' expectations and those innocent third parties who now reside related lands. However, the equities also mandate that the Court not pass judgment without noting that the Oneidas and their ancestors have been subjected to historic levels of disruption -- disruption that forms the heart of this action and merits this Court's consideration."

Visit uticaOD.com later for more detail and reaction to this historic ruling.

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#580003 --- 05/21/07 11:33 PM Re: Another Land Claim Bites the Dust [Re: Rich_Tallcot]
reilley Offline
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Registered: 01/17/05
Posts: 11744
Loc: between here and there
but they are gonna get money ....i would rather have money ..you can buy the land
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#580007 --- 05/22/07 12:05 AM Re: Another Land Claim Bites the Dust [Re: reilley]
Rich_Tallcot Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/19/03
Posts: 5565
Loc: Greeneville, TN
Yes Reilley.

But there are catches

1 - lands they purchase will not be reservation

2 - they'll still owe taxes on them (however, untill Judge Hurd's ruling that a municipality can't enforce tax laws on a tribe because they can't sue them to foreclose is overturned, their tax bills pile up.

3 - the BIA will not even consider lands for trust applications unless the taxes are paid up.

4 - the case will be appealed to the 2nd circuit and IF the attorneys THERE weren't so dumb as to not include laches in their arguments, the monetary award (which is all the Cayuga claim had left at that point) could be thrown out as well.

and 5- the Oneida tribe makes over a million a day anyway. What they're claiming is only a year's income for them.

I question the merits argued and am not up on the Oneida claim arguments in court like I was the Cayuga claim. The Oneida, in 1788, and the Cayuga, in 1789, each sold their lands to NYS and section 3 of each treaty both stated "of the ceded lands" in reference to the state reservations created. This acknowledges that the lands in debate were sold pre 1790 and all the tribe had was a use right to the state lands. But the Judge refers to the 1795 use right sale as a land sale. I don't know if they included their Treaty of Ft. Schyyler or not in the arguments.

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#580008 --- 05/22/07 12:08 AM Re: Another Land Claim Bites the Dust [Re: Rich_Tallcot]
Rich_Tallcot Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/19/03
Posts: 5565
Loc: Greeneville, TN
One more thing - if you recall the 60 Minutes coverage of their claim - the tribe wanted Twenty Two Billion Dollars PLUS the 225,000 acres of land.

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#1001363 --- 03/30/09 12:35 PM Re: Another Land Claim Bites the Dust [Re: Rich_Tallcot]
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32556
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
3 - the BIA will not even consider lands for trust applications unless the taxes are paid up.


The Oneida, in 1788, and the Cayuga, in 1789, each sold their lands to NYS and section 3 of each treaty both stated "of the ceded lands" in reference to the state reservations created. This acknowledges that the lands in debate were sold pre 1790 and all the tribe had was a use right to the state lands.



You think the tribe knows this?
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#1001619 --- 03/31/09 04:23 AM Re: Another Land Claim Bites the Dust [Re: Rich_Tallcot]
justaxme Offline
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Registered: 08/31/05
Posts: 2351
Loc: On top?
"...said the Oneidas may deserve to be paid retroactively for the low prices the state paid more than 100 years ago."

I hope the French don't hear this, we only paid them about 3 cents an acre for the Louisiana purchase!!

And while we're on the subject, I got a good deal on a house I bought, do I have to worry about being sued for more money because the seller thinks he got screwed? WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!
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#1001716 --- 03/31/09 06:53 AM Re: Another Land Claim Bites the Dust [Re: justaxme]
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32556
Loc: USA
The tribes claims are laughable.
How about we ask to have all the money paid out to the tribes for the past 200 years that had nothing to do with a treaty provision?
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"OUR COUNTRY IS IN MOURNING, A SOLDIER DIED TODAY."

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#1001717 --- 03/31/09 06:55 AM Re: Another Land Claim Bites the Dust [Re: reilley]
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32556
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: reilley
but they are gonna get money ....i would rather have money ..you can buy the land


They have been paid 8 times over and over and over and over and over....
But I doubt you comprehend this basic logic.
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"OUR COUNTRY IS IN MOURNING, A SOLDIER DIED TODAY."

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#1014994 --- 04/26/09 11:27 PM Re: Another Land Claim Bites the Dust [Re: bluezone]
helenkk Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 04/26/09
Posts: 1
Loc: washington,USA

Hi,

The above thought is smart and doesnít require any further addition. Itís perfect thought from my side.

Helen



Edited by FL1 Mod 2 (04/27/09 07:59 AM)

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#1015587 --- 04/27/09 11:33 PM Re: Another Land Claim Bites the Dust [Re: helenkk]
queenbee Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/22/08
Posts: 1758
Loc: soul quest
Finally some good news.
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IF I DON'T MIND, IT DON'T MATTER!!

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#1015609 --- 04/28/09 04:29 AM Re: Another Land Claim Bites the Dust [Re: queenbee]
justaxme Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/31/05
Posts: 2351
Loc: On top?
Wasn't there supposed to be some court decision to come down on friday the 24th? I can't keep track of all the lawsuits. Anyone?
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#1015639 --- 04/28/09 05:26 AM Re: Another Land Claim Bites the Dust [Re: justaxme]
BJ Radford Offline
Member

Registered: 03/30/09
Posts: 314
Loc: Geneva
Originally Posted By: justaxme
Wasn't there supposed to be some court decision to come down on friday the 24th? I can't keep track of all the lawsuits. Anyone?


The 24th was potentially decision day but alas, no decision. The next possible decision date is May 1.

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#1015701 --- 04/28/09 07:05 AM Re: Another Land Claim Bites the Dust [Re: BJ Radford]
justaxme Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/31/05
Posts: 2351
Loc: On top?
Originally Posted By: BJ Radford
Originally Posted By: justaxme
Wasn't there supposed to be some court decision to come down on friday the 24th? I can't keep track of all the lawsuits. Anyone?


The 24th was potentially decision day but alas, no decision. The next possible decision date is May 1.


Thanks. And what are we deciding this time?
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#1016131 --- 04/29/09 04:51 AM Re: Another Land Claim Bites the Dust [Re: justaxme]
BJ Radford Offline
Member

Registered: 03/30/09
Posts: 314
Loc: Geneva
Originally Posted By: justaxme
Originally Posted By: BJ Radford
Originally Posted By: justaxme
Wasn't there supposed to be some court decision to come down on friday the 24th? I can't keep track of all the lawsuits. Anyone?


The 24th was potentially decision day but alas, no decision. The next possible decision date is May 1.


Thanks. And what are we deciding this time?


All the issues associated with the County raids of 11/25 on the stores. The issue of whether or not the Nation can resume selling cigarettes, whether ot not the counties will be able to prosecute and the disposition of the cigarettes and computers taken during the raid. The NYS Appellate Court - Fourth Dept is deciding an appeal of Justice Fisher's earlier decision which said that the Nation can not sell cigarettes, the counties can prosecute and the counties can continue to keep the computers and cigarettes as evidence.

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#1016182 --- 04/29/09 05:29 AM Re: Another Land Claim Bites the Dust [Re: BJ Radford]
Ranger Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 10/23/00
Posts: 25141
Loc: GOD's 1/2 acre
I would hope the decision is pretty obvious, seeing as how Lakeside is not on Reservation land, but obvious never really seems to apply in my estimation.
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#1016266 --- 04/29/09 08:30 AM Re: Another Land Claim Bites the Dust [Re: BJ Radford]
justaxme Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/31/05
Posts: 2351
Loc: On top?
Originally Posted By: BJ Radford
Originally Posted By: justaxme
Originally Posted By: BJ Radford
Originally Posted By: justaxme
Wasn't there supposed to be some court decision to come down on friday the 24th? I can't keep track of all the lawsuits. Anyone?


The 24th was potentially decision day but alas, no decision. The next possible decision date is May 1.


Thanks. And what are we deciding this time?


All the issues associated with the County raids of 11/25 on the stores. The issue of whether or not the Nation can resume selling cigarettes, whether ot not the counties will be able to prosecute and the disposition of the cigarettes and computers taken during the raid. The NYS Appellate Court - Fourth Dept is deciding an appeal of Justice Fisher's earlier decision which said that the Nation can not sell cigarettes, the counties can prosecute and the counties can continue to keep the computers and cigarettes as evidence.


Thanks. I had some crazy idea that this would all end someday. Doesn't look like it in my lifetime.
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#1016386 --- 04/29/09 11:25 AM Re: Another Land Claim Bites the Dust [Re: justaxme]
BJ Radford Offline
Member

Registered: 03/30/09
Posts: 314
Loc: Geneva
Originally Posted By: justaxme
Originally Posted By: BJ Radford
Originally Posted By: justaxme
Originally Posted By: BJ Radford
Originally Posted By: justaxme
Wasn't there supposed to be some court decision to come down on friday the 24th? I can't keep track of all the lawsuits. Anyone?


The 24th was potentially decision day but alas, no decision. The next possible decision date is May 1.


Thanks. And what are we deciding this time?


All the issues associated with the County raids of 11/25 on the stores. The issue of whether or not the Nation can resume selling cigarettes, whether ot not the counties will be able to prosecute and the disposition of the cigarettes and computers taken during the raid. The NYS Appellate Court - Fourth Dept is deciding an appeal of Justice Fisher's earlier decision which said that the Nation can not sell cigarettes, the counties can prosecute and the counties can continue to keep the computers and cigarettes as evidence.


Thanks. I had some crazy idea that this would all end someday. Doesn't look like it in my lifetime.


I'm with you justaxme.

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#1016456 --- 04/29/09 12:22 PM Re: Another Land Claim Bites the Dust [Re: Rich_Tallcot]
Santa_Cruzer Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/22/09
Posts: 2225
Loc: Westside
Suface the Cayuga Nation!

What a great day that will be.
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#1016465 --- 04/29/09 12:38 PM Re: Another Land Claim Bites the Dust [Re: justaxme]
SilverFox Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/19/00
Posts: 6485
Loc: Waterloo
Told you the horse wasn't dead yet. The Cayugas keep reviving him and hauling him into court. They don't seem to understand the SCOTUS ruling. It doesn't matter whether the sale is on a reservation or not. Sales to non-Natives are taxable period.

Cayuga Nation = 150 Native Americans. Look at the damage they have done to NYS and Cayuga and Seneca Counties by court actions and defying court rulings.
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#1016809 --- 04/30/09 04:34 AM Re: Another Land Claim Bites the Dust [Re: SilverFox]
justaxme Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/31/05
Posts: 2351
Loc: On top?
Originally Posted By: SilverFox
Told you the horse wasn't dead yet. The Cayugas keep reviving him and hauling him into court. They don't seem to understand the SCOTUS ruling. It doesn't matter whether the sale is on a reservation or not. Sales to non-Natives are taxable period.

Cayuga Nation = 150 Native Americans. Look at the damage they have done to NYS and Cayuga and Seneca Counties by court actions and defying court rulings.


I don't doubt that the counties and state will eventually win, it's just the frivilous lawsuit mentality of the tribes and the weakness of the state and feds that's draining. If our professional lifetime politicians had any balls, they would end this.
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