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#574093 --- 05/08/07 05:16 PM Re: Bombshell Cripples Case Against Haditha Marines [Re: Strawberry Jam]
Retired Soldier Offline
Silver Member

Registered: 12/23/05
Posts: 12945
Loc: Rochester, NY
I realize that it is impossible to educate you, but I hope that I can educate others.
The Marines originally covered up the story because they realized what a public relations disaster it was. However, if they had swiftly acted to declare it a crime and begun the investigation they could have shown the Iraqis that we believe Iraqi lives are just as valuable as American lives, and we will not tolerate the killing of innocent Iraqi civilians by US troops. Unfortunately, that did not happen and even though those that committed the crimes are being brought to trial, the Iraqis no longer trust or believe that Americans will do it unless they are forced to. In fact, recent surveys have shown only 40% of American servicemembers would report such crimes.

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#574113 --- 05/08/07 06:13 PM Re: Bombshell Cripples Case Against Haditha Marines [Re: Retired Soldier]
Strawberry Jam Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 07/11/04
Posts: 34421
Loc: Herkimer County NY
Originally Posted By: Retired Soldier
I realize that it is impossible to educate you, but I hope that I can educate others.
The Marines originally covered up the story because they realized what a public relations disaster it was. However, if they had swiftly acted to declare it a crime and begun the investigation they could have shown the Iraqis that we believe Iraqi lives are just as valuable as American lives, and we will not tolerate the killing of innocent Iraqi civilians by US troops. Unfortunately, that did not happen and even though those that committed the crimes are being brought to trial, the Iraqis no longer trust or believe that Americans will do it unless they are forced to. In fact, recent surveys have shown only 40% of American servicemembers would report such crimes.


Infact, people are waking up and smelling something rotten in Pennsylvania called Murtha. The truth will come out, RS.

Educate me? Please...you do not want to educate, you want to "propagandate" me.

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#574128 --- 05/08/07 06:42 PM Re: Bombshell Cripples Case Against Haditha Marines [Re: Strawberry Jam]
Retired Soldier Offline
Silver Member

Registered: 12/23/05
Posts: 12945
Loc: Rochester, NY
A special Marine unit in Afghanistan is now under investigation in Afghanistan for the killing and wounding of over 60 Afghans after a suicide bomber attacked their convoy.
Their Army Brigade Commander has made a public apology and criminal investigations are under way.

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#574172 --- 05/08/07 08:06 PM Re: Bombshell Cripples Case Against Haditha Marines [Re: Retired Soldier]
SkySoldier Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 08/18/01
Posts: 25300
Loc: Finger Lakes National Forest, ...
LOL Yeah, right. Lap it up you left wing piece of dog crap. I don't believe it and it will ultimately be proved false.


Real nice leg work for Al Qaieda though. they really should promote you to a real officer in the Jihad.



~
_________________________
America has problems.

We can fix that.

America is not THE problem.

Next time. Vote for the AMERICAN.


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#574213 --- 05/08/07 09:33 PM Re: Bombshell Cripples Case Against Haditha Marines [Re: SkySoldier]
Retired Soldier Offline
Silver Member

Registered: 12/23/05
Posts: 12945
Loc: Rochester, NY
Someday you will have to face reality. It is not only true, but it mirrors the massacre in Haditha except these Marines shot up all the Afghans they saw while the Marines were escaping from the site of the suicide bombing.

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#574214 --- 05/08/07 09:37 PM Re: Bombshell Cripples Case Against Haditha Marines [Re: Retired Soldier]
Strawberry Jam Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 07/11/04
Posts: 34421
Loc: Herkimer County NY
You take every story that is anti-military and run with it, yet you will not comment on how soldiers in training in Ft Dix were targets for terrorists right here in the US. Not one word.

These are you supposedly fellow soldiers who were to be killed, not one word said about it. Not one.

You are despicable.

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#574336 --- 05/09/07 06:57 AM Re: Bombshell Cripples Case Against Haditha Marines [Re: Strawberry Jam]
Retired Soldier Offline
Silver Member

Registered: 12/23/05
Posts: 12945
Loc: Rochester, NY
What is there to say about it? If this is the threat we are fighting in Iraq to prevent we should have stayed home.
They were a bunch of idiots that were lead on by the FBI.
I have asked you several times what you think we can accomplish by remaining in Iraq and how you would define victory there and you are unable to answer the question. You don't know. Yet you are willing for our soldiers to die at the rate of over a hundred a month. Not a half-a--- plot, but die and be wounded. You are willing to sacrifice another 1,000 or 2,000 for what?
Instead of spouting some more of your adolescent insults try to frame an intelligent reply that clearly frames your case.

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#574346 --- 05/09/07 07:10 AM Re: Bombshell Cripples Case Against Haditha Marines [Re: Retired Soldier]
Strawberry Jam Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 07/11/04
Posts: 34421
Loc: Herkimer County NY
Originally Posted By: Retired Soldier
What is there to say about it? If this is the threat we are fighting in Iraq to prevent we should have stayed home.
They were a bunch of idiots that were lead on by the FBI.
I have asked you several times what you think we can accomplish by remaining in Iraq and how you would define victory there and you are unable to answer the question. You don't know. Yet you are willing for our soldiers to die at the rate of over a hundred a month. Not a half-a--- plot, but die and be wounded. You are willing to sacrifice another 1,000 or 2,000 for what?
Instead of spouting some more of your adolescent insults try to frame an intelligent reply that clearly frames your case.


Why should we stay? We went in, we toppled Saddam, we owe it to the Iraqi people to help them get on their feet. Yes, they have to do more to show they are willing to get on their feet. But, running out on them is not the answer.

Frame that.

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#574434 --- 05/09/07 09:21 AM Re: Bombshell Cripples Case Against Haditha Marines [Re: Strawberry Jam]
SkySoldier Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 08/18/01
Posts: 25300
Loc: Finger Lakes National Forest, ...
Originally Posted By: Strawberry Jam
You take every story that is anti-military and run with it, yet you will not comment on how soldiers in training in Ft Dix were targets for terrorists right here in the US. Not one word.

These are you supposedly fellow soldiers who were to be killed, not one word said about it. Not one.

You are despicable.


Absolute truth in your post SBJ.



~
_________________________
America has problems.

We can fix that.

America is not THE problem.

Next time. Vote for the AMERICAN.


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#574463 --- 05/09/07 09:39 AM Re: Bombshell Cripples Case Against Haditha Marines [Re: SkySoldier]
Retired Soldier Offline
Silver Member

Registered: 12/23/05
Posts: 12945
Loc: Rochester, NY
SJ, What fails in your little analysis is progress. We have been at it for over 4 years and conditions are worse than when we started. We have wasted over 20,000 wounded and 3500 killed, and created more terrorists than we have killed; destroyed the US Army and Marines, and now the Air Force says its planes are worn out, too.
It will be a great time for the defense industry supplying all this new equipment and it will cost the tax payers more than the
$200 billion we have already wasted on this war.
How many more bodies and years are you willing to invest in this failed enterprise? The American people have already said that it is past time to pull the plug. They will restate that message in 2008. They are already saying that ANY DEMOCRAT beats any republican.

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#574468 --- 05/09/07 09:42 AM Re: Bombshell Cripples Case Against Haditha Marines [Re: Retired Soldier]
Strawberry Jam Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 07/11/04
Posts: 34421
Loc: Herkimer County NY
Originally Posted By: Retired Soldier
SJ, What fails in your little analysis is progress. We have been at it for over 4 years and conditions are worse than when we started. We have wasted over 20,000 wounded and 3500 killed, and created more terrorists than we have killed; destroyed the US Army and Marines, and now the Air Force says its planes are worn out, too.
It will be a great time for the defense industry supplying all this new equipment and it will cost the tax payers more than the
$200 billion we have already wasted on this war.
How many more bodies and years are you willing to invest in this failed enterprise? The American people have already said that it is past time to pull the plug. They will restate that message in 2008. They are already saying that ANY DEMOCRAT beats any republican.


Thank you for proving my point about you. It is not about lives lost with you, it is all about the politics for you. \:\/

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#574473 --- 05/09/07 09:46 AM Re: Bombshell Cripples Case Against Haditha Marines [Re: Strawberry Jam]
Retired Soldier Offline
Silver Member

Registered: 12/23/05
Posts: 12945
Loc: Rochester, NY
No, I was against the war from the beginning. As was Colin Powell, as was General Zinni, as was General Shineski, and a host of others. Even the president's father!
Unfortunately, all the reasons why we never should have invaded Iraq have been proven true.
I think we have wasted too many lives in Iraq already. How many more are you willing to waste?

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#574479 --- 05/09/07 09:48 AM Re: Bombshell Cripples Case Against Haditha Marines [Re: Retired Soldier]
Strawberry Jam Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 07/11/04
Posts: 34421
Loc: Herkimer County NY
Originally Posted By: Retired Soldier
No, I was against the war from the beginning. As was Colin Powell, as was General Zinni, as was General Shineski, and a host of others. Even the president's father!
Unfortunately, all the reasons why we never should have invaded Iraq have been proven true.
I think we have wasted too many lives in Iraq already. How many more are you willing to waste?


See, i do not look at those lives as "wasted". They were brave men and women who joined the military knowing what was at stake should they be called to pay the ultimate price. You desecrate their graves everytime you use the word "wasted".

But, then again you are the epitomy of that very word. \:\/

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#574487 --- 05/09/07 09:51 AM Re: Bombshell Cripples Case Against Haditha Marines [Re: Strawberry Jam]
Retired Soldier Offline
Silver Member

Registered: 12/23/05
Posts: 12945
Loc: Rochester, NY
No, you put no value on their lives. You have no limit on the number of lives you are willing to sacrifice in a war that was never necessary and cannot be won militarily.
After the next election we will begin doing what we should have done four years ago, call a regional conference and seek help from Iraq's neighbors and other Arab states. Unfortunately, we will have another 1,000+ KIA by then with no result.

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#574494 --- 05/09/07 09:54 AM Re: Bombshell Cripples Case Against Haditha Marines [Re: Retired Soldier]
Strawberry Jam Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 07/11/04
Posts: 34421
Loc: Herkimer County NY
Originally Posted By: Retired Soldier
No, you put no value on their lives. You have no limit on the number of lives you are willing to sacrifice in a war that was never necessary and cannot be won militarily.
After the next election we will begin doing what we should have done four years ago, call a regional conference and seek help from Iraq's neighbors and other Arab states. Unfortunately, we will have another 1,000+ KIA by then with no result.


Really? Because this morning you said 1000+ PER MONTH. Which is it.
I value their lives much more than you ever will, while you slam the military every chance you get. Yet, you blame the FBI for a plotted attack on the very lives you claim to value all to protect your twisted idea of America.
Tell me again how you "value" their lives?

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#574501 --- 05/09/07 10:00 AM Re: Bombshell Cripples Case Against Haditha Marines [Re: Strawberry Jam]
Retired Soldier Offline
Silver Member

Registered: 12/23/05
Posts: 12945
Loc: Rochester, NY
No way to win hearts and minds
May 9th 2007 | DELHI
From Economist.com

America apologises for killing more civilians in Afghanistan

AFP
THE American army delivered an apology and blood money on Tuesday May 8th to the families of 19 Afghan civilians killed in March by marines. As in similar cases in Afghanistan and Iraq the killings, which took place on a road near Jalalabad in eastern Afghanistan, were discovered by journalists and initially misrepresented by American commanders. Announcing the climb-down, an American colonel in Afghanistan told reporters: “I stand before you today deeply, deeply ashamed and terribly sorry that Americans have killed and wounded innocent Afghan people.”

This is unlikely to prevent many more such incidents. The killing of large numbers of civilians by American forces, through indisciplined firing or as a result of their heavy reliance on air-strikes, has been a bitter feature of the campaigns in Afghanistan and Iraq—just as it was in Vietnam. Indeed, later on Tuesday at least 21 civilians were killed in air-strikes in the southern province of Helmand, according to Asadullah Wafa, its pro-American governor. In Iraq on Wednesday, according to local security sources, an American helicopter involved in an attack against suspected insurgents killed a number of children at a primary school north of Baghdad.
Since the killings in Afghanistan in March, American troops in that country—mostly from a counter-terrorism contingent that is operating outside the main American-led NATO peacekeeping force—are alleged to have killed civilians on at least five occasions. Late in April at least 57 civilians are said to have been slain in American air-strikes at Shindand, in western Afghanistan.

The slaughter in Jalalabad appears to have occurred in similar circumstances to the better-known murder in 2005 of 24 Iraqi civilians in Haditha, in western Iraq. After being attacked by a suicide bomber, American marine special forces allegedly retaliated by shooting at every Afghan in sight. Another 50 civilians were wounded in their attack. As in Haditha, the marines then tried hiding their bloody tracks.
Afghan journalists at the scene had video film confiscated and digital photographs deleted from their cameras. American officials claimed that the marines had faced a “complex ambush”, with Taliban marksmen hidden among the civilians. The Taliban are capable of such tactics. Before last week’s violence in Shindand, a tally by the Associated Press showed 151 civilians had been killed in Afghanistan this year, including 100 by the Taliban. Another estimate, by Human Rights Watch, suggests that more than 1,000 Afghan civilians died in violent attacks in 2006, more than half of them the victims of Taliban assaults.

Yet there appears to be no evidence that the marines near Jalalabad came under attack after the bomb-blast. America’s Department of Defence has launched a criminal investigation into the incident. The family of each slain Afghan has received $2,000.
More such payouts could soon follow. The fighting in Shindand, between April 27th and 29th, began with a failed American special forces operation to grab a local warlord and suspected Taliban ally, Mullah Akhtar. A former Taliban commander, he had previously received support from the Afghan government (and allegedly from American forces) against another warlord, Ismael Khan. In the attempt to capture him, according to an American army press release, 136 Taliban fighters and one American soldier were killed, but no civilians.

A team of UN and government investigators sent to Shindand last week found several hundred houses destroyed by air-strikes and heard reports of many civilians dead and injured. Some 1,600 families had fled the area. Among the dead were said to be many children, including some who had drowned after diving into a river to escape the onslaught.

In response to early reports of a massacre in Shindand, Afghanistan’s leader, Hamid Karzai, warned that Afghans’ patience with the foreign troops in their midst was “wearing thin”. Mr Karzai has issued similar warnings after previous American atrocities. But there is evidence to suggest that he may be right. Last week several hundred students gathered near Jalalabad to protest against a separate, recent incident in which civilians, including at least one woman, were alleged to have been killed by American special-forces fighters. In their slogans they held George Bush and Mr Karzai himself to blame.

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#574506 --- 05/09/07 10:04 AM Re: Bombshell Cripples Case Against Haditha Marines [Re: Retired Soldier]
Strawberry Jam Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 07/11/04
Posts: 34421
Loc: Herkimer County NY
Yes, oh yes! Keep posting it over and over and over and over...it starts to make more truth out of it then. \:\/

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#574530 --- 05/09/07 10:27 AM Re: Bombshell Cripples Case Against Haditha Marines [Re: Strawberry Jam]
Retired Soldier Offline
Silver Member

Registered: 12/23/05
Posts: 12945
Loc: Rochester, NY
It is the truth. It has happened, it is happening, and it will happen again. Our presence in Iraq is counterproductive. We are creating more enemies than we are killing and paying a horrible price to do it.

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#574554 --- 05/09/07 10:55 AM Re: Bombshell Cripples Case Against Haditha Marines [Re: Strawberry Jam]
VM Smith Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 11/28/05
Posts: 38160
Loc: Ship of Fools
" this morning you said 1000+ PER MONTH."

Maybe my eyes are going bad, but I can't find that; got a quote?
_________________________
If you vote for government, you have no right to complain about what government does.

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#575016 --- 05/10/07 06:07 AM Re: Bombshell Cripples Case Against Haditha Marines [Re: VM Smith]
Retired Soldier Offline
Silver Member

Registered: 12/23/05
Posts: 12945
Loc: Rochester, NY
Squad Leader Shot Unarmed Iraqis
Associated Press | May 10, 2007
CAMP PENDLETON, Calif. - A Marine squad leader who led an attack that killed 24 Iraqi civilians shot five men as they stood with their hands up and told comrades to lie about it, a Marine sergeant testified Wednesday.

Sgt. Sanick P. Dela Cruz said that in the moments after a roadside bomb hit a Humvee in his convoy Nov. 19, 2005, killing a comrade, he saw five men standing by a white car with their hands interlocked behind their heads. The squad leader, Staff Sgt. Frank Wuterich, then fired about six to eight rounds at the men, Dela Cruz testified.

"They were just standing, looking around, had hands up," Dela Cruz said. "Then I saw one of them drop in the middle. I didn't know what was going on, sir. Looked to my left, saw Staff Sergeant Wuterich shooting."

Dela Cruz spoke at a preliminary hearing for Capt. Randy Stone, a Marine lawyer from Dunkirk, Md. Stone is accused along with three officers of dereliction of duty for failing to investigate the deaths.

Three enlisted Marines are charged with murder, including Wuterich, who is accused of killing 18 civilians. It is the biggest U.S. criminal case involving civilian deaths in the Iraq war.

Stone's civilian attorney, Charles Gittins, contends Stone, 34, did nothing wrong because he thought the killings were a legitimate outcome of combat. Gittins noted that Stone reported the incident up the chain of command and said he had been told not to investigate further.

After Wuterich shot the five men, Dela Cruz said, he "sprayed" the bodies with automatic gunfire.

"I knew they were dead, I wanted to make sure," Dela Cruz said.

Dela Cruz said Wuterich then shot the men again in the upper torso and head, and told him several times to lie if asked about the killings in Haditha, about 120 miles west of Baghdad.

"He told me that if anybody asked, they were running away and the Iraqi army shot them," Dela Cruz said.

Wuterich's attorney, Neal Puckett, said in a phone interview that Dela Cruz's account was false and that the Marine had given investigators up to five different versions of events.

"It's unfortunate that in exchange for his freedom he's being forced to testify against his brothers," Puckett said.

Dela Cruz initially was charged with murder, but prosecutors dismissed charges against him last month. He has been given immunity to testify.

After the five men died, a fire team led by Wuterich cleared two houses with grenades and gunfire in an effort to find insurgents. The dead included women, children and the elderly. The Marines involved have said their response was a legitimate action because they were under attack.

Earlier on Wednesday, 1st Sgt. Albert Espinosa testified that he repeatedly told higher-ups that the killings warranted an investigation, but he was told not to worry about it.

"Knowing what happened on Nov. 19, I knew something had to be done with an investigation," said Espinosa, who maintained casualty reports for Kilo Company at the time of the killings.

Espinosa said in the days after the killings, he told Stone and the company's commander, Capt. Lucas McConnell, that an investigation should be launched.

"They said don't worry about it, battalion will handle it," he said. "It wasn't the answer I was looking for."

Espinosa also testified that log books from Nov. 19 were incomplete or missing.

The hearing is part of an Article 32 investigation, the military's equivalent to a grand jury proceeding. Maj. Thomas McCann, the investigating officer, will hear evidence and recommend whether the charges should go to trial.

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