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#171795 --- 05/19/05 08:50 PM Going to Pieces
Rich_Tallcot Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/19/03
Posts: 5565
Loc: Greeneville, TN
Check out this web site: http://www.EQUILOCUS.COM

[the documentary and book cover 17 areas across the country including the Salamanca 16, Cayuga & Oneida land claims - I highly recommend ordering this book and DVD]

The Dismantling of the United States of America

A national DOCUMENTARY DVD and accompanying book exposing the factual real-time destruction of American Indian rights as well as the rights of all other Americans and their state's sovereignty by Federal Indian Policy.

Congress must halt and then end this destructive, unaccountable, racist and unconstitutional legislation.

Divisive tribalism in America can no longer be ignored.

To order please contact:
http://www.EQUILOCUS.COM

Oppression, violence, loss of civil & property rights....

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#171796 --- 05/19/05 10:50 PM Re: Going to Pieces
Okla.ndn Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/21/02
Posts: 3074
Loc: Osage Indian Nation in Oklahom...
"The Dismantling of the United States of America" And how many Tribes did the states diemantle to become the US.
Congress must follow the laws of this land they made deals with the Tribes that have to be kept. "Oppression, violence, loss of civil & property rights..." Oppression. violence and illegal dealings took or property rights but thats alright we are just Indians. But remember what Bush wants Bush gets. LOL
_________________________
I am a General Council member of the Seneca-Cayuga Tribe I speak for my self not my Tribe.

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#171797 --- 05/20/05 06:22 AM Re: Going to Pieces
Strawberry Jam Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 07/11/04
Posts: 34421
Loc: Herkimer County NY
Okla...you keep saying "remember, what Bush wants, Bush gets,lol"...well did you forget that Bush will not be president forever "lol", and this could be held up in courts for years "lol" and the fact is, Bush does NOT always get what bush wants. Period.

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#171798 --- 05/20/05 09:51 AM Re: Going to Pieces
Okla.ndn Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/21/02
Posts: 3074
Loc: Osage Indian Nation in Oklahom...
Your right but Bush or the next pres. will follow the Constitution and fed. laws and treaties. Remember the oath they take when elected to that office. The uce and others like them have been fighting to take our rights and do away with Tribal governments for over 200 years. They have lost every time and we are still here to fight them and the next ones that come along. We are getting stronger and richer by the day. LOL
_________________________
I am a General Council member of the Seneca-Cayuga Tribe I speak for my self not my Tribe.

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#171799 --- 05/20/05 10:45 AM Re: Going to Pieces
Twodogs Offline
Member

Registered: 04/01/03
Posts: 72
Loc: Wy do you ask ?
We are getting stronger and richer by the day. LOL

--------------------
I am a General Council member of the Seneca-Cayuga Tribe I speak for my self not my Tribe

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#171800 --- 05/20/05 10:48 AM Re: Going to Pieces
Strawberry Jam Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 07/11/04
Posts: 34421
Loc: Herkimer County NY
Quote:

We are getting stronger and richer by the day. LOL

--------------------
I am a General Council member of the Seneca-Cayuga Tribe I speak for my self not my Tribe





Sounds more like to me that you want the money more than your "forefather's tribal land"...that your "heritage" does not mean as much as the almighty dollar...at least with that statement, Okla and Twodogs.

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#171801 --- 05/20/05 11:02 AM Re: Going to Pieces
Okla.ndn Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/21/02
Posts: 3074
Loc: Osage Indian Nation in Oklahom...
Quote:

Quote:

We are getting stronger and richer by the day. LOL

--------------------
I am a General Council member of the Seneca-Cayuga Tribe I speak for my self not my Tribe





Sounds more like to me that you want the money more than your "forefather's tribal land"...that your "heritage" does not mean as much as the almighty dollar...at least with that statement, Okla and Twodogs.


We already have some of the land back now pay us the 247 mil. and we will buy more land back with that money. So you see money or land its all the same if you have land you have money, if you have money land is easy to get. So it doesn't matter give us the money and we can use it to buy land or give us the land back.
_________________________
I am a General Council member of the Seneca-Cayuga Tribe I speak for my self not my Tribe.

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#171802 --- 05/20/05 11:06 AM Re: Going to Pieces
Strawberry Jam Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 07/11/04
Posts: 34421
Loc: Herkimer County NY
Thank you for clarifying your real stance: money money money....not really about getting the tribal land back, but using the tribal land to make an almighty buck. Such warm tradition in your words. I am sure your forefathers are proud of you.

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#171803 --- 05/20/05 11:09 AM Re: Going to Pieces
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32556
Loc: USA
Okla's elders fought against the colonists and lost.

Usually, the losing party in a war is luck to get away with the clothes on their back or even their lives.
_________________________
"OUR COUNTRY IS IN MOURNING, A SOLDIER DIED TODAY."

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#171804 --- 05/20/05 11:12 AM Re: Going to Pieces
Okla.ndn Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/21/02
Posts: 3074
Loc: Osage Indian Nation in Oklahom...
Quote:

I am sure your forefathers are proud of you.


Don't you wish you could say the same thing about your self. LOL
_________________________
I am a General Council member of the Seneca-Cayuga Tribe I speak for my self not my Tribe.

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#171805 --- 05/20/05 11:14 AM Re: Going to Pieces
Strawberry Jam Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 07/11/04
Posts: 34421
Loc: Herkimer County NY
I ost certainly can say it with pride...and without trying to take someone's land or money in the name of my "forefathers".

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#171806 --- 05/20/05 11:24 AM Re: Going to Pieces
Okla.ndn Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/21/02
Posts: 3074
Loc: Osage Indian Nation in Oklahom...
Quote:

I ost certainly can say it with pride...and without trying to take someone's land or money in the name of my "forefathers".


It was your forefathers that took our land, the land you now call yours.
_________________________
I am a General Council member of the Seneca-Cayuga Tribe I speak for my self not my Tribe.

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#171807 --- 05/20/05 11:25 AM Re: Going to Pieces
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32556
Loc: USA
The land was paid for. Your elders have the money from the land. Sorry that you did not get your piece of the 'pie'.
_________________________
"OUR COUNTRY IS IN MOURNING, A SOLDIER DIED TODAY."

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#171808 --- 05/20/05 11:29 AM Re: Going to Pieces
Okla.ndn Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/21/02
Posts: 3074
Loc: Osage Indian Nation in Oklahom...
Quote:

The land was paid for. Your elders have the money from the land. Sorry that you did not get your piece of the 'pie'.


No it wasn't your just renting. Now pay your rent or get off our land.
_________________________
I am a General Council member of the Seneca-Cayuga Tribe I speak for my self not my Tribe.

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#171809 --- 05/20/05 11:31 AM Re: Going to Pieces
Strawberry Jam Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 07/11/04
Posts: 34421
Loc: Herkimer County NY
Wrong, it was my forefather's who WON the land in a war. You lost. You left, you took money then for retribution. Move on.
But in effect, my forefather's did not come here until later in the 1800's from my recollection. My forefathers would be proud of me that I do not try to swindle people out of land/money over and over again.
Native Americans have had a long proud heritage. In some instances I almost agreed with you Okla, until that statement about "getting richer and stronger". Your forefather's had no idea about "money" and being "rich" until the "white man" landed. Their riches were found in the land itself, and themselves. Stronger? No, weaker...morally speaking.

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#171810 --- 05/20/05 11:38 AM Re: Going to Pieces
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32556
Loc: USA
Quote:

Quote:

The land was paid for. Your elders have the money from the land. Sorry that you did not get your piece of the 'pie'.


No it wasn't your just renting. Now pay your rent or get off our land.




The US wants to be reimubursed for the land that you reside on-you are renting this land- now pay your rent or get off the land.
_________________________
"OUR COUNTRY IS IN MOURNING, A SOLDIER DIED TODAY."

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#171811 --- 05/20/05 11:51 AM Re: Going to Pieces
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32556
Loc: USA
Quote:

Quote:

The land was paid for. Your elders have the money from the land. Sorry that you did not get your piece of the 'pie'.


No it wasn't your just renting. Now pay your rent or get off our land.




If we are just renting then why do you have to BUY the land back?? (Because you are wrong)
_________________________
"OUR COUNTRY IS IN MOURNING, A SOLDIER DIED TODAY."

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#171812 --- 05/20/05 02:24 PM Re: Going to Pieces
E. Mousie Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 09/23/04
Posts: 15851
Loc: in my suite in the bookcase!
sheesh, can't blame me for any of it, I didn't arrive in America until 1965 or so, and my folks came from Lithuania. I've read all I can and all I can say is ridiculous, you heard the Supreme Court decision, so take a deep breath and start getting realistic.
_________________________
sanity......hmmm, I can't even remember what that is!

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#171813 --- 05/20/05 10:42 PM Re: Going to Pieces
Okla.ndn Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/21/02
Posts: 3074
Loc: Osage Indian Nation in Oklahom...
Quote:

Wrong, it was my forefather's who WON the land in a war. You lost. You left, you took money then for retribution. Move on.
But in effect, my forefather's did not come here until later in the 1800's from my recollection. My forefathers would be proud of me that I do not try to swindle people out of land/money over and over again.
Native Americans have had a long proud heritage. In some instances I almost agreed with you Okla, until that statement about "getting richer and stronger". Your forefather's had no idea about "money" and being "rich" until the "white man" landed. Their riches were found in the land itself, and themselves. Stronger? No, weaker...morally speaking.


Wrong again the land we claim we had after the war. The treaties made that took our land were illegal.
_________________________
I am a General Council member of the Seneca-Cayuga Tribe I speak for my self not my Tribe.

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#171814 --- 05/21/05 12:39 AM Re: Going to Pieces
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32556
Loc: USA
Ray Halbritter, the leader of the Oneida Indian Nation in upstate New York, is one of the wealthiest men in the state, according to other members of the tribe.

Halbritter has positioned himself as head of the extremely profitable Turning Stone casino on the reservation, which earns about $217 million in annual profits from over 2.5 million visitors per year, according to the Manhattan consulting group Christiansen Capital Advisors, and Halbritter is also the acting CEO of various for-profit companies under the umbrella of Oneida Inc. The Oneida Inc. enterprises, including construction, gas stations, land development, textiles and home cookware, employ about 2,000 people, making Oneida Inc. one of the largest employers in central New York. Though these enterprises function exactly like corporations, they are able to take advantage of the tax exempt status offered to Indian tribes. Halbritter also owns a media company, which among other things publishes the widely circulated newspaper Indian Country Today.

But many in the Oneida tribe say he is far from a progressive and generous force. Rather, they say, he has continued the tradition of oppression and control suffered by Indians at the hands of the U.S. government, and has in fact taken it upon himself to strip his people of their traditions and bind them under his control as part of his plan for profit. Not only that, but in the process his leadership has undermined the traditional matriarchial and democratic traditions of the Iroquois, with a patriarchal Men's Council that mirrors the white power structure of secrecy and exclusiveness rather than the inclusive, collective structure set up by the Iroquois League of Nations hundreds of years ago and followed by many tribes to this day.

"Among the Iroquois there is no such thing as a leader or king," said Danielle Patterson, Halbritter's cousin and outspoken opponent. "What Halbritter has done is taken this democratic form of government and turned it into a dictatorship.

In the mid-1980s Halbritter and two other Oneida men were appointed interim custodians of the tribe, called "peacekeepers" or "eyes and ears" for the Onondaga Grand Council. Each represented a different Wolf Clan, the traditional leadership structure of the tribe. They were supposed to turn over power to an elected leadership when the time came, and to respect the traditional, matriarchal and democratic leadership structures which centered around the Wolf Clan Mothers.

But, in 1990 after the other two interim leaders died, Halbritter took the opportunity to start seizing total control. He appointed a "Men's Council," something which is unheard of in Iroquois matrilineal tradition, and began making new laws and policies governing the lives of the tribe. He also started the for-profit company Oneida Inc. and named himself the CEO, with the Men's Council functioning as a sort of Board of Directors.

He staged a coup against the remaining vestiges of traditional leadership. One day the Wolf Clan went to the traditional Long House for their meeting, only to find the locks had been changed by Halbritter and the Men's Council, who were using it exclusively for their meetings. Halbritter hired a 50-plus-member private police force, which is not recognized by the county or state police, many of them non-Native. They have been widely charged with physical abuse and intimidation in carrying out Halbritter's wishes. Many call them "goons," a term which originated to describe the thuggish private police on the Pine Ridge reservation. Halbritter also set up a tribal court staffed with his own supporters and subject to his final say on all appeals.

In 1993 Halbritter won approval from the state and local government, including then Gov. Mario Cuomo, for construction of the Turning Stone casino, which soon became a vastly successful enterprise with reported profits of $217 million per year.

Halbritter violated tradition by making the casino deal without input from the tribe, fostering the nascient opposition to his leadership. The deal was also in violation of a 1988 ruling by the Indian Gaming Commission that required a tribal referendum before the construction of a casino.

In 1993 the Haudenosaunee (Iroquois Confederacy) Grand Council refused to recognize Halbritter's authority as leader of the Oneida.

That year the Bureau of Indian Affairs (BIA) also ruled that Halbritter's leadership was in fact illegal and invalid. But in just 24 hours the BIA had reversed their position, many say at the urging of New York elected officials, namely Congressman Sherwood Boehlert, and Sen. Alphonse D'Amato, who were known as gambling supporters and cronies of Halbritter.

Like many tribes, tribal members receive regular pay-outs of the casino profits, anywhere from $1,100 per month to about $5,000 per year according to different people. But many say that rather than uplifting the overall socioeconomic status of the reservation, the casino revenue has served as a tool for Halbritter to retain his stranglehold on power. Those who oppose him don't receive the casino benefits or other tribal benefits including college scholarships, insurance and health coverage.

"People are afraid to speak out because they are afraid to lose their housing and benefits," said Patterson. "It's a whole brainwashing theory he has to make people codependent. He has 'woodwork Oneidas' who support him, people who came out of the woodwork when they heard about the casino. Those people are so misled they don't know who they are. Many of them relocated here from Syracuse or other cities [after the casino revenue started flowing.]"

Patterson also noted that though they get stipends from the casino, many Oneida are paying that money right back to Oneida Inc. because they rent homes on Oneida Inc.-developed for-profit rental housing, such as a development called White Pines.
"A lot of our people are still at or near the poverty level, many are on welfare, while he's getting all this money from the casino," she said. "At White Pines it is all rental, there is no ownership, and the police control every aspect of it. They're paying the money he gave them right back to him in $500 or $1,000 per month rent."

In 1995, many Oneida protested in a March for Democracy opposing Halbritter's leadership. Many of them had their cash and benefits terminated. Other demonstrations against Halbritter's authority over the years have also resulted in people losing their benefits and intimidation and violence by the tribal police.

Opponents of Halbritter note that his leadership doesn't fall under either of the two accepted forms of Indian government, traditional roles inherited through the tribe or elected governments.

"Without a trial or hearing we have been found guilty by the Men's Council of conspiring with the Confederacy, meeting with Wisconsin Oneida and being in the company of unnamed, apparently dangerous 'Canadians,'" wrote Diane Shenandoah, Halbritter's cousin and another major critic. "Halbritter has taken away our benefits while denying us, at risk of arrest, access to our Oneida facilities, including the Long House. He has punished Oneida for speaking to the press, enacted ordinances which are unknown to residents and passed laws which he can change on a whim."
_________________________
"OUR COUNTRY IS IN MOURNING, A SOLDIER DIED TODAY."

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#171815 --- 05/21/05 05:38 PM Re: Going to Pieces
Devious Offline
Member

Registered: 11/17/04
Posts: 130
Loc: Seneca Falls New York
Quote:

Thank you for clarifying your real stance: money money money....not really about getting the tribal land back, but using the tribal land to make an almighty buck. Such warm tradition in your words. I am sure your forefathers are proud of you.




I see our GREAT WHITE FATHERS are not the only ones with deep pockets..
_________________________
Think I'm sarcastic?
Watch me pretend to care...

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#171816 --- 05/21/05 11:15 PM Re: Going to Pieces
EYRIE Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/14/05
Posts: 3279
Loc: Wherever Life leads me
So much for the Noble Red Man.
It's all about the money.
_________________________
He who gossips to u may also gossip about u.

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#171817 --- 05/22/05 12:50 AM Re: Going to Pieces
Della Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 12/22/04
Posts: 16305
Loc: Seneca Falls
are any of you Indian?
_________________________
What a shame to have to beg you to see we're not all the same

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#171818 --- 05/22/05 07:32 AM Re: Going to Pieces
Ovidian Offline
Silver Member

Registered: 12/02/02
Posts: 11435
Loc: gone
Probably many here have some Indian heritage. Oddly enough when I see Indians on the news they look like white guys with pony tails.

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#171819 --- 05/22/05 10:12 AM Re: Going to Pieces
EYRIE Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/14/05
Posts: 3279
Loc: Wherever Life leads me
Sorry, Della. That remark was not intended as a general remark, but rather as a statement of my disappointment in one particular native American and his "noble cause".
No, unlike a lot of people who claim native american ancestry, I have no native American blood, nor did any of my ancestors come over on the Mayflower.
I am of northern and central European stock. Immigrants who came to this great country to escape their own form of persecution. Just like Iron Eyes Codie (pictured). who was first generation American born of two Italian immigrants. But, who, I might add, did far more to champion the cause of the Native American than Okla appears to be doing. JMHO
_________________________
He who gossips to u may also gossip about u.

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#171820 --- 05/22/05 11:10 AM Re: Going to Pieces
Ovidian Offline
Silver Member

Registered: 12/02/02
Posts: 11435
Loc: gone
I was wondering if you knew who he was.

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#171821 --- 05/22/05 04:32 PM Re: Going to Pieces
EYRIE Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/14/05
Posts: 3279
Loc: Wherever Life leads me
Iron Eyes Codie? Who could ever forget him paddling up the poluted stream, and standing there with a single tear on his cheek. I found the picture under urban legends.
He may not have been a Native American by blood, but he did far more for the NA cause than any other person in modern history. I wonder what he would have thought of the dispute that has been going on for years in Seneca and Cayuga Counties.
_________________________
He who gossips to u may also gossip about u.

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#171822 --- 05/22/05 05:09 PM Re: Going to Pieces
Ovidian Offline
Silver Member

Registered: 12/02/02
Posts: 11435
Loc: gone
He was an actor. I doubt much beyond his paycheck mattered.

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#171823 --- 05/22/05 06:03 PM Re: Going to Pieces
EYRIE Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/14/05
Posts: 3279
Loc: Wherever Life leads me
Check out his bio. I found it under crying indian, but he's also there under Iron Eyes Codie. His "credits" on behalf on the Native American are very impressive.
_________________________
He who gossips to u may also gossip about u.

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#171824 --- 05/22/05 11:16 PM Re: Going to Pieces
Okla.ndn Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/21/02
Posts: 3074
Loc: Osage Indian Nation in Oklahom...
Quote:

Sorry, Della. That remark was not intended as a general remark, but rather as a statement of my disappointment in one particular native American and his "noble cause".
No, unlike a lot of people who claim native american ancestry, I have no native American blood, nor did any of my ancestors come over on the Mayflower.
I am of northern and central European stock. Immigrants who came to this great country to escape their own form of persecution. Just like Iron Eyes Codie (pictured). who was first generation American born of two Italian immigrants. But, who, I might add, did far more to champion the cause of the Native American than Okla appears to be doing. JMHO


He was an actor I was born Native American. If he did so much then why are things the way they are for the Natives. Thats what I find odd people came here to escape persecution, then did the same thing to the Native Americans.
_________________________
I am a General Council member of the Seneca-Cayuga Tribe I speak for my self not my Tribe.

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#171825 --- 05/22/05 11:33 PM Re: Going to Pieces
EYRIE Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/14/05
Posts: 3279
Loc: Wherever Life leads me
You seem to have missed the meaning of the message you copied.
Obviously you need to talk to some of the older members of your tribe. There was a time when the Native American was as persecuted and discriminated aginst as the Afridan American was 40 years ago.
I'm sorry, but you lost me when you colored your cause green.
_________________________
He who gossips to u may also gossip about u.

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#171826 --- 05/23/05 08:54 AM Re: Going to Pieces
Okla.ndn Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/21/02
Posts: 3074
Loc: Osage Indian Nation in Oklahom...
Quote:

You seem to have missed the meaning of the message you copied.
Obviously you need to talk to some of the older members of your tribe. There was a time when the Native American was as persecuted and discriminated aginst as the Afridan American was 40 years ago.
I'm sorry, but you lost me when you colored your cause green.


The judge colored it when he ruled we wouldn't get our land back. And it was our elders that filed the land claim. Your just one more that thinks its bad to defend ones self. I know I should be a good little ndn and be seen and not heard. LOL well think again joker this little ndn is going to speak and I don't give a rats ass what you think of me.
_________________________
I am a General Council member of the Seneca-Cayuga Tribe I speak for my self not my Tribe.

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#171827 --- 05/23/05 09:14 AM Re: Going to Pieces
Strawberry Jam Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 07/11/04
Posts: 34421
Loc: Herkimer County NY
I thought more of you before the statement about "getting richer".

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#171828 --- 05/23/05 09:20 AM Re: Going to Pieces
Strawberry Jam Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 07/11/04
Posts: 34421
Loc: Herkimer County NY
Quote:

are any of you Indian?




According to my family tree, there is Indian in my lineage. I am proud of that fact and have always cheered on various Indian benefits, for which I would never take a part in ( my "lineage" is not enough nor do I need it). But when I hear a Native American talking about getting richer off the backs of their fellow Americans, and laughing about it, it concerns me greatly. I guess my image of Indians of being spiritual beings was incorrect. I remember watching "cowboy and indians" as a kid, and being terrified of the thought of them as savages as they were so often protrayed. I no longer think they are "savages" in the sense they would cause harm to others. But to hear one say "we are getting richer and stronger...lol", well that bothers me a great deal. It is no longer about the land they claim to be hijacked from, nor the reparation for that land...it is about getting "rich". But, neither am I ignorant enough to believe that Okla speaks for ALL Native Americans, certainly not the ones who do not look at themselves as separted from our nation and continue to contribute to the society in which we all must live together. JMO

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#171829 --- 05/23/05 09:46 AM Re: Going to Pieces
Okla.ndn Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/21/02
Posts: 3074
Loc: Osage Indian Nation in Oklahom...
Quote:

I thought more of you before the statement about "getting richer".


And I hear the same thing every time you post. And my statement was to mean we now have the money to fight back. But I understand your statements to mean you don't think I have a right to fight for what was done to my forefathers. As long as its all one sided and we set back and take it you think more of us.
_________________________
I am a General Council member of the Seneca-Cayuga Tribe I speak for my self not my Tribe.

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#171830 --- 05/23/05 09:57 AM Re: Going to Pieces
Strawberry Jam Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 07/11/04
Posts: 34421
Loc: Herkimer County NY
No, I think you have a right to fight what you feel you have right to, this is America and should have equal rights. i just feel that the fight is being fought over and over again, and is not based on equality but for monetary strength. MY OPINION on your statement was based on what you posted. You did not post you wanted your land back, you did not state you were unfairly treated in that statement, you stated you were going to get "richer" and stronger. Anyone who makes the broad statement of getting richer because their forefathers were "unfairly treated", in my "opinion" sounds like they have lost focus on the issue, and just wants money in their pockets. Again, this is my opinion of you based on a post in a forum that you posted. Not on the entire population of Native Americans in the USA.
Laurie Pietowski comes to my mind of a Native American who stood up and proudly served this great Nation and made the supreme sacrifice. I have met and enjoyed the company of other not so well known NAs.
Do not infer from my post that I am "anti Native American", I am against someone who wants to get rich off the blood of their forefathers. Period.

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#171831 --- 05/23/05 10:18 AM Re: Going to Pieces
Okla.ndn Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/21/02
Posts: 3074
Loc: Osage Indian Nation in Oklahom...
We went to court to get the land back but the court ruled that we could only get money. So you think we should walk away and accept nothing because we couldn't get our land back. What money we have made didn't come from our land claim in New York. The land claim has done nothing but cost us money. "I am against someone who wants to get rich off the blood of their forefathers. Period." But you feel its okay that the white man has gotten rich off the blood of my forefathers. I would as soon have the land back as the money but that has been ruled on already by the court.
_________________________
I am a General Council member of the Seneca-Cayuga Tribe I speak for my self not my Tribe.

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#171832 --- 05/23/05 10:31 AM Re: Going to Pieces
Strawberry Jam Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 07/11/04
Posts: 34421
Loc: Herkimer County NY
I believe white men and other races, who have gotten rich off the blood of ANYONE is wrong. I am a white person who lives in the USA. I am not rich. I am not about to get rich off the blood of anyone.
Another broad statement that the 'white man" has caused you to be poor? How about a hard working individual who makes their way up the ladder? How about the hard wroking white person who works their way through college to become a successful businessman?
Quit throwing at me and others on here that we "owe" you something. My forefathers have also faced hard time, worked for everything they had and worked hard to get it.
Again, you argue "money for land". Yet you were already PAID for it long ago. You argue the treaty was "illegal" and now say the court says you cannot have the land but money. So if the USA pays you money this time for the land, will that be enough? Or will you again fight for the land that people will refuse to seel out to you for a price? And then again ask for more and more money each time you go to court to "fight" for land?
This is what I mean, the land was the issue, you are making it into money now. To make you "richer to fight", to fight what the same battle which funded your fight? Land? Yet you say you are not greedy? You want the money for the land because you cannot have the land and you need the money to fight for the land again? So you can get more money later??? Greed is what I hear, not pride in your "land" or people...greed.
Again, this is my opinion and you will not change it. It is my opinion of YOU Okla, by your posts, not all Native Americans. I know that most Native Americans have more pride than what you have shown here.

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#171833 --- 05/23/05 12:57 PM Re: Going to Pieces
EYRIE Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/14/05
Posts: 3279
Loc: Wherever Life leads me
Quote:

I thought more of you before the statement about "getting richer".




Exactly my point, SBJ.
A question for Okla. What are you (the tribe as a whole) going to do if you do win this land back? Do you intend to come back to NYS and live on it?
No rhetoric, please. Just a simple answer to a simple question.
_________________________
He who gossips to u may also gossip about u.

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#171834 --- 05/23/05 03:00 PM Re: Going to Pieces
Rich_Tallcot Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/19/03
Posts: 5565
Loc: Greeneville, TN
Okla says: "Your just one more that thinks its bad to defend ones self."

Ummmm: Okla, YOU are the plaintiff, WE are the DEFENDants.

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#171835 --- 05/23/05 04:14 PM Re: Going to Pieces
Ovidian Offline
Silver Member

Registered: 12/02/02
Posts: 11435
Loc: gone
Dick, your white. It is not okay for you to defend your self! SIT THERE AND TAKE WHAT EVER COMES YOUR WAY!!!!!!!

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#171836 --- 05/23/05 10:29 PM Re: Going to Pieces
Okla.ndn Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/21/02
Posts: 3074
Loc: Osage Indian Nation in Oklahom...
Quote:

Quote:

I thought more of you before the statement about "getting richer".




Exactly my point, SBJ.
A question for Okla. What are you (the tribe as a whole) going to do if you do win this land back? Do you intend to come back to NYS and live on it?
No rhetoric, please. Just a simple answer to a simple question.


I don't speak for the (Tribe as a whole).
_________________________
I am a General Council member of the Seneca-Cayuga Tribe I speak for my self not my Tribe.

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#171837 --- 05/23/05 11:32 PM Re: Going to Pieces
EYRIE Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/14/05
Posts: 3279
Loc: Wherever Life leads me
Still refusing to give a direct answer, Okla? Then speak for yourself. Speak for others in the tribe that you know. Do you intend to move to this land if the court finds in your favor? Yes or no?
_________________________
He who gossips to u may also gossip about u.

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#171838 --- 05/24/05 05:53 AM Re: Going to Pieces
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32556
Loc: USA
Quote:


A question for Okla. What are you (the tribe as a whole) going to do if you do win this land back? Do you intend to come back to NYS and live on it?
No rhetoric, please. Just a simple answer to a simple question.




Could it be that the only correct answer would be that his tribe ONLY wants a casino and he doesn't want to say that.

His tribe has a casino in Oklahoma.

They do not want the land, they do not want the 10, 30, 247... million dollars because a casino can bring in that kind of money in a short time. Over the long haul, a casino would bring more money (profits) than the return of the land or any court award. This is the reason that the tribes will look for any loophole to gain a casino. In addition, NY state has very little competition as it relates to casinos (illegal).
_________________________
"OUR COUNTRY IS IN MOURNING, A SOLDIER DIED TODAY."

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#171839 --- 05/24/05 06:44 AM Re: Going to Pieces
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32556
Loc: USA
Quote:

.
A question for Okla. What are you (the tribe as a whole) going to do if you do win this land back? Do you intend to come back to NYS and live on it?
No rhetoric, please. Just a simple answer to a simple question.





The state with the most tribal casinos--82--is Oklahoma, where tribes rake in as much as $2.2 billion a year--and the state doesn't get a cent. Oklahoma Indians, who comprise 7 percent of the state population, have become the most powerful political force there. Meanwhile, officials estimate that Oklahoma's 39 tribes cost the state over $700 million a year--in lost property taxes, lost revenues on tax-free cigarettes, and lost excise taxes and tag fees from cars sold by reservation dealerships. That's nearly the equivalent of the state's 2003 budgetary shortfall, enough to pay for 18,000 teachers.
_________________________
"OUR COUNTRY IS IN MOURNING, A SOLDIER DIED TODAY."

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#171840 --- 05/24/05 07:33 PM Re: Going to Pieces
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32556
Loc: USA
Quote:


The state with the most tribal casinos--82--is Oklahoma, where tribes rake in as much as $2.2 billion a year--and the state doesn't get a cent. Oklahoma Indians, who comprise 7 percent of the state population, have become the most powerful political force there. Meanwhile, officials estimate that Oklahoma's 39 tribes cost the state over $700 million a year--in lost property taxes, lost revenues on tax-free cigarettes, and lost excise taxes and tag fees from cars sold by reservation dealerships. That's nearly the equivalent of the state's 2003 budgetary shortfall, enough to pay for 18,000 teachers.




Okla - I have read you repeatedly indicate on this forum that you pay all your taxes just like you would in NY state but this newspaper article states otherwise. If the state of Oklahoma is not impressed by the tribes and their casinos why would NY state want to open the door to your tribe and a 'pandoras box'?
_________________________
"OUR COUNTRY IS IN MOURNING, A SOLDIER DIED TODAY."

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#171841 --- 05/24/05 11:41 PM Re: Going to Pieces
Okla.ndn Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/21/02
Posts: 3074
Loc: Osage Indian Nation in Oklahom...
Quote:

Quote:


The state with the most tribal casinos--82--is Oklahoma, where tribes rake in as much as $2.2 billion a year--and the state doesn't get a cent. Oklahoma Indians, who comprise 7 percent of the state population, have become the most powerful political force there. Meanwhile, officials estimate that Oklahoma's 39 tribes cost the state over $700 million a year--in lost property taxes, lost revenues on tax-free cigarettes, and lost excise taxes and tag fees from cars sold by reservation dealerships. That's nearly the equivalent of the state's 2003 budgetary shortfall, enough to pay for 18,000 teachers.


Oklahoma was never to be a state but like all the promises that were made were broke. But you think we should accept the illegal dealings done by New York. Oh by the way Oklahoma is going to get their cut from gaming.And we pay a state and fed. tax on our smokes, our land has never been taxed. We didn't have to share class II gaming money. But we do give a lot, but that news doesn't sale many news papers. The Tribes are the 2nd largest employer in the state. Tribal employes pay the same tax that any other employes in the state pay. Most of the employes don't live on Indian land so they pay the same as everyone does.

Okla - I have read you repeatedly indicate on this forum that you pay all your taxes just like you would in NY state but this newspaper article states otherwise. If the state of Oklahoma is not impressed by the tribes and their casinos why would NY state want to open the door to your tribe and a 'pandoras box'?


Thats an old article. LOL Watch and see how well Oklahoma makes out with the new gaming pacts made with the Tribes.
_________________________
I am a General Council member of the Seneca-Cayuga Tribe I speak for my self not my Tribe.

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#171842 --- 05/24/05 11:56 PM Re: Going to Pieces
Okla.ndn Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/21/02
Posts: 3074
Loc: Osage Indian Nation in Oklahom...
Quote:

Still refusing to give a direct answer, Okla? Then speak for yourself. Speak for others in the tribe that you know. Do you intend to move to this land if the court finds in your favor? Yes or no?


No I do not intend to move. I do intend to build a place there and spend part of the year there, win or lose. The issue has not been talked about much so I can't say about other members.
_________________________
I am a General Council member of the Seneca-Cayuga Tribe I speak for my self not my Tribe.

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#171843 --- 05/25/05 06:26 PM Re: Going to Pieces
EYRIE Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/14/05
Posts: 3279
Loc: Wherever Life leads me
Quote:

Quote:

Still refusing to give a direct answer, Okla? Then speak for yourself. Speak for others in the tribe that you know. Do you intend to move to this land if the court finds in your favor? Yes or no?


No I do not intend to move. I do intend to build a place there and spend part of the year there, win or lose. The issue has not been talked about much so I can't say about other members.





Thank you for an honest, direct answer.
_________________________
He who gossips to u may also gossip about u.

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#171844 --- 05/26/05 05:58 AM Re: Going to Pieces
Old Broad Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/12/02
Posts: 710
Loc: Whitewater, Ca. USA
Quote:

We are getting stronger and richer by the day. LOL

--------------------
I am a General Council member of the Seneca-Cayuga Tribe I speak for my self not my Tribe




If my memory serves me right and from what I have read , your ForeFathers signed a contract and was paid at least twice for the land that you are now saying still belongs to you and that we ran your people off.. It's been said that a certain Chief was not at the meeting where the contract was signed and money was exchanged.. That's why you feel that the land still belongs to you. Were you there and know that for a fact or are you just blowing smoke at us trying to make us believe it's coming from a peace pipe..
_________________________
I try to take one day at a time, but sometimes several days attack me all at once.

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#171845 --- 05/26/05 06:10 AM Re: Going to Pieces
Old Broad Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/12/02
Posts: 710
Loc: Whitewater, Ca. USA
From what I have just read, Mr Halbritter and his Henchmen are no better that Organized crime..
_________________________
I try to take one day at a time, but sometimes several days attack me all at once.

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#171846 --- 05/26/05 08:54 AM Re: Going to Pieces
Okla.ndn Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/21/02
Posts: 3074
Loc: Osage Indian Nation in Oklahom...
Quote:

Quote:

We are getting stronger and richer by the day. LOL

--------------------
I am a General Council member of the Seneca-Cayuga Tribe I speak for my self not my Tribe




If my memory serves me right and from what I have read , your ForeFathers signed a contract and was paid at least twice for the land that you are now saying still belongs to you and that we ran your people off.. It's been said that a certain Chief was not at the meeting where the contract was signed and money was exchanged.. That's why you feel that the land still belongs to you. Were you there and know that for a fact or are you just blowing smoke at us trying to make us believe it's coming from a peace pipe..


It was your Chief that was not represented at the meeting when the illegal deal was made. Now put that in your peace pipe old one.
_________________________
I am a General Council member of the Seneca-Cayuga Tribe I speak for my self not my Tribe.

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#171847 --- 05/26/05 02:53 PM Re: Going to Pieces
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32556
Loc: USA
Quote:

From what I have just read, Mr Halbritter and his Henchmen are no better that Organized crime..




Here is a difference, Ray doesn't have to worry about the feds coming after him for his illegal casino operations.
_________________________
"OUR COUNTRY IS IN MOURNING, A SOLDIER DIED TODAY."

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#171848 --- 05/26/05 04:48 PM Re: Going to Pieces
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32556
Loc: USA
Quote:

From what I have just read, Mr Halbritter and his Henchmen are no better that Organized crime..




Speaking of Organized Crime and Casinos...........



A jury Tuesday awarded more than $242 million to a group of investors in a failed plan to develop an Indian casino in Kenosha.

Dealing With The Casinos


The defendants were three partners in Nii-Jii Entertainment, a firm created to develop the Paradise Key casino for the Menominee Indian Nation at the site of the Dairyland Greyhound Park racetrack. The Paradise Key casino management firm also was a defendant.

The jury found defendants Morgan Murphy Jr., Morgan Murphy III and Robert D. Boyle had failed to disclose Murphy Jr.'s past business links to two Chicago crime figures.

In addition, the jury found that the main developers of the casino - the Murphys and Boyle - had committed securities fraud, mail fraud, theft, embezzlement and racketeering in connection with their concealment of the links to John Serpico and John Credidio, described in the civil complaint in the case as "two persons of notorious and unsavory reputation" for their involvement in an unrelated kickback scheme.

Murphy Jr. has said he was unaware of kickbacks a Chicago bank has admitted it paid Serpico, who was a partner with Murphy Jr. in a real estate deal. Serpico and Credido were convicted of fraud in connection with the deal.

The findings were for purposes of the civil case, heard before Racine County Circuit Judge Gerald Ptacek. Murphy Jr., his son and Boyle have not been charged criminally in connection with the Nii-Jii deal.

The ties to crime figures meant likely failure of the casino deal because of the insistence by gambling regulators on squeaky clean backgrounds of casino officials. The Nii-Jii plan was withdrawn by the Menominee tribe in 2001 while it was under federal review.

The plaintiffs, Nii-Jii investors Dick Platt, Al Cohl and others, were awarded $21.5 million and Nii-Jii was awarded $220.9 million, according to plaintiffs' attorney George Kersten. The Murphys, Boyle and their law firm, as well as the Paradise Key management firm, were held liable for the damages, Kersten said.

He called the jury award "a major step forward" but acknowledged litigation was likely far from over.
_________________________
"OUR COUNTRY IS IN MOURNING, A SOLDIER DIED TODAY."

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#171849 --- 05/29/05 04:39 PM Re: Going to Pieces
EYRIE Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/14/05
Posts: 3279
Loc: Wherever Life leads me
Now put that in your peace pipe old one.


Well, another myth down the drain. I always thought Native Americans were know for their respect for their elders. Or is that only respect for Native American elders?
_________________________
He who gossips to u may also gossip about u.

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#171850 --- 05/29/05 10:46 PM Re: Going to Pieces
Okla.ndn Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/21/02
Posts: 3074
Loc: Osage Indian Nation in Oklahom...
Quote:

Now put that in your peace pipe old one.


Well, another myth down the drain. I always thought Native Americans were know for their respect for their elders. Or is that only respect for Native American elders?


How do you know who the elder is? The respect is for all elders but the ones that talk bs.
_________________________
I am a General Council member of the Seneca-Cayuga Tribe I speak for my self not my Tribe.

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#171851 --- 06/01/05 08:02 PM Re: Going to Pieces
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32556
Loc: USA
Airport area casino put on hold by ruling
By MATT GRYTA
News Staff Reporter
5/26/2005

A judge Wednesday barred construction of a casino in Cheektowaga until the state performs an environmental impact study, which could take two years. State Supreme Court Justice Joseph G. Makowski issued a permanent injunction halting work on the proposed casino pending completion of the study.

In a 51-page decision, Makowski blocked Uniland Development from selling the 57-acre Airborne Business Park, east of Buffalo Niagara International Airport, to the Seneca Nation until the state completes mandated environmental studies.

Timothy Sherry, president of the 5,000-member Concern Inc., a citizens group seeking the court order for more than a year, called Makowski's ruling "the right thing to do." The organization is concerned about potential impact on nearby residential areas.

"This has always been about getting the state and the township to comply with environmental laws," said Sherry.

Michael B. Powers and Adam Walters, attorneys for Concern Inc., said they believe Makowski's ruling effectively kills the Cheektowaga casino.

Last June, Makowski, in a decision still being appealed by the Town of Cheektowaga, faulted Gov. George E. Pataki for violating the 2002 casino compact by slighting Buffalo in favor of Cheektowaga.

Powers and Walters pointed out that recently the Seneca Nation seems to have decided against a Cheektowaga venture, focusing instead on a Buffalo site.

Powers and Walters believe the Senecas, who face a Dec. 9 ground-breaking deadline on an Erie County casino, are unlikely to keep fighting for the Cheektowaga site.

The Appellate Division of State Supreme Court in Rochester expected to hear arguments in October on the appeal of Makowski's decision of last June.

Under that ruling, the judge stopped the state from releasing funding for the Cheektowaga casino project.


Buffalo News
_________________________
"OUR COUNTRY IS IN MOURNING, A SOLDIER DIED TODAY."

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#171852 --- 06/02/05 01:05 AM Re: Going to Pieces
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32556
Loc: USA
Finger Lakes News Network

Halftown Wants Cayuga Law Firm Fired

Cayuga Indian Nation representative Clint Halftown says he backed out of a proposed settlement of the Cayuga land claim because of what he says was a fiscal relationship that had developed between the Cayugas' law firm and Empire Resorts. Empire stood to profit from building a Cayuga casino in the Catskills as part of the settlement agreement. Halftown is calling for the removal of the Manhattan law firm. Halftown is embroiled in a dispute over who has the right to speak and enter into agreements for the Nation. Area lawmakers say the US Supreme Court's decision in the Sherrill case effectively takes any land claim settlement deals off the table.
_________________________
"OUR COUNTRY IS IN MOURNING, A SOLDIER DIED TODAY."

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#171853 --- 06/02/05 07:01 AM Re: Going to Pieces
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32556
Loc: USA
Kingston Mayor James Sottile on Wednesday joined the growing list of opponents to an Indian tribe's proposed casino in Saugerties.

Sottile said a gaming hall in the northern Ulster County town would ruin the "quaint" character of the community and "overshadow" its historical significance.

The Democratic mayor said he also would oppose construction of a casino in the Kingston area but not necessarily in the southwestern part of the county, such as the Ellenville area, where resorts are part of the landscape.

"I just don't think that a casino should be plopped into a town or a city," the mayor said, referring to a proposal by the Seneca-Cayugas Tribe of Oklahoma to build a casino, hotel, entertainment center and golf course on the Winston Farm in Saugerties. "I think if we are going to look at a casino, we should look at the resorts rather than taking them and plopping them right in a middle of a community."

The majority leader of the Kingston Common Council, Bill Reynolds, said he objects to a casino being built anywhere in Ulster County and will ask the council to approve a resolution endorsing that opposition.

"It's just bad news," said Reynolds, D-Ward 7. "It may bring more money, but what would that money pay for? We would have to pay for more police officers, and we may need more social workers, addiction counselors."

No date has been set for a vote on Reynolds' resolution. The town boards in Woodstock, New Paltz and Shandaken already have approved resolutions opposing casinos in Ulster County.

A group of Ulster County legislators from Saugerties has proposed a resolution that would let officials in any given town decide the fate of a casino proposed for their community. The resolution does not take a position the Winston Farm plan but would bar the county from negotiating with any tribal government for casino development without the host municipality first giving its approval, either by a vote of the municipal board or a public referendum.

The Saugerties Town Board is to vote next Wednesday on a resolution that objects to the Winston Farm proposal. Town Supervisor Greg Helsmoortel and village of Saugerties Mayor Robert Yerick already have voiced opposition to the Seneca-Cayuga plan.

Additionally, Saugerties-based opponents of the casino have formed a group called No Saugerties Casino Inc. A public forum hosted by the group drew about 250 people to the John D. Greco Senior Center in Saugerties on Tuesday.

Sottile said the negative impacts of a casino in Saugerties probably would be felt in Kingston.

"There may be some sales tax (revenue), but that tax would probably go to pay for the problems that casinos create," Sottile said. "I just don't think Winston Farm is a good site for a casino.

Town of Ulster Supervisor Fred Wadnola and Deputy Supervisor Barbara Wise, both Republicans, don't expect their Town Board to take up an anti-casino resolution anytime soon.

Wise offered no personal opinion on the Saugerties plan, but said: "I think that any industry, whether it be a casino or a factory, if they are opposed by the host community, they are going to have a uphill battle."
_________________________
"OUR COUNTRY IS IN MOURNING, A SOLDIER DIED TODAY."

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#171854 --- 06/28/05 05:24 PM Re: Going to Pieces
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32556
Loc: USA
Finger Lakes News Network


Court says Cayuga Nation not entitled to land claim

In a stunning reversal, a federal appeals court ruled Tuesday the Cayuga Indians aren't entitled to a 248 million dollar land claim judgment awarded them by a lower court.



The Second U-S Circuit Court of Appeals cited the U-S Supreme Court's recent ruling in the tax case involving the Oneida Indians and the city of Sherrill. The high court said too many years had passed for the Oneidas to claim that their reacquired former reservation lands were again sovereign and tax-exempt. The appeals court reversed and dismissed the Cayuga's entire 25-year-old land claim. Attorney William Dorr, who represented Cayuga and Seneca counties, called it a complete victory. Governor Pataki called it ``a tremendous victory for the property owners and taxpayers of Central New York.'' Attorney Glenn Feldman, who represented the Indians, said the ruling could be the death knell for all Indian land claims based on historic taking of land. The Oneidas, Onondagas, Mohawks and Senecas also have land claims pending against New York.
_________________________
"OUR COUNTRY IS IN MOURNING, A SOLDIER DIED TODAY."

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#171855 --- 07/18/05 01:04 PM Re: Going to Pieces
Okla.ndn Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/21/02
Posts: 3074
Loc: Osage Indian Nation in Oklahom...
Its not over yet. Now congress will deal with it. hahaha
_________________________
I am a General Council member of the Seneca-Cayuga Tribe I speak for my self not my Tribe.

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#171856 --- 07/18/05 10:06 PM Re: Going to Pieces
Rich_Tallcot Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/19/03
Posts: 5565
Loc: Greeneville, TN
Congress is dealing with it.

Tuesday July 19th, the House Judiciary Committte's subcommittee on the Constitution holds an oversight hearing titled "Can Congress Create a Race-Based Government?: The Constitutionality of H.R.309 and S.147, the 'Native Hawaiian Government Reorganization Act of 2005." The bill would recognize a Native Hawaiian governing entity.

That's telling it like it is!!!

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#171857 --- 07/18/05 10:33 PM Re: Going to Pieces
the Federalist Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/13/00
Posts: 4766
Loc: the America made great again
Quote:

Its not over yet. Now congress will deal with it. hahaha





Why are you laughing?

From what I have read, Congress seem to be leaning toward preventing out of state tribes from having gambling in New York.

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#1001366 --- 03/30/09 12:39 PM Re: Going to Pieces [Re: the Federalist]
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32556
Loc: USA
Okla has vanished
_________________________
"OUR COUNTRY IS IN MOURNING, A SOLDIER DIED TODAY."

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#1011944 --- 04/20/09 09:42 AM Re: Going to Pieces [Re: Rich_Tallcot]
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32556
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
Congress is dealing with it.

Tuesday July 19th, the House Judiciary Committte's subcommittee on the Constitution holds an oversight hearing titled "Can Congress Create a Race-Based Government?: The Constitutionality of H.R.309 and S.147, the 'Native Hawaiian Government Reorganization Act of 2005." The bill would recognize a Native Hawaiian governing entity.

That's telling it like it is!!!



Did this bill not fail?
_________________________
"OUR COUNTRY IS IN MOURNING, A SOLDIER DIED TODAY."

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#1012294 --- 04/20/09 08:16 PM Re: Going to Pieces [Re: bluezone]
Rich_Tallcot Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/19/03
Posts: 5565
Loc: Greeneville, TN
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
Congress is dealing with it.

Tuesday July 19th, the House Judiciary Committte's subcommittee on the Constitution holds an oversight hearing titled "Can Congress Create a Race-Based Government?: The Constitutionality of H.R.309 and S.147, the 'Native Hawaiian Government Reorganization Act of 2005." The bill would recognize a Native Hawaiian governing entity.

That's telling it like it is!!!



Did this bill not fail?


We've helped to kill the bill for several years and every year it comes back.

There are presently two versions of the bill before Congress. Senator Schumer and past Senator Clinton have always voted in favor.

Akaka Bill
On March 25, 2009, Senator Daniel K. Akaka along with the other members of the Hawaii Congressional Delegation introduced the Native Hawaiian Government Reorganization Act of 2009 (S. 708 and H.R. 1711). The Senate bill is consponsored by Senator Daniel K. Inouye (D) of Hawaii, Senators Lisa Murkowski (R) and Mark Begich (D) of Alaska, and Senate Indian Affairs Committee Chairman Byron Dorgan (D) of North Dakota.

The bill text is identical to a version introduced on February 4, 2009 (S. 381/H.R. 862), with the inclusion of language explicitly prohibiting gaming. While gambling is illegal in Hawaii and the Native Hawaiian Government will be subject to state and federal laws, this additional language clarifies that the intent of this bill is not to legalize gambling. The gaming prohibition clarifies that Native Hawaiians and the Native Hawaiian government cannot conduct gambling within the State of Hawaii, any other state, or the U.S. Territories.

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#1012508 --- 04/21/09 07:51 AM Re: Going to Pieces [Re: Rich_Tallcot]
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32556
Loc: USA
Does Akaka represent the USA or another "nation"?
_________________________
"OUR COUNTRY IS IN MOURNING, A SOLDIER DIED TODAY."

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#1013307 --- 04/22/09 08:46 PM Re: Going to Pieces [Re: bluezone]
Rich_Tallcot Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/19/03
Posts: 5565
Loc: Greeneville, TN
Senator Akaka is the U.S. Senator from Hawaii. Both Hawaii senators are racial supremacists that wish to promote apartheid by creating the largest tribe in the country. Doing so would open up a huge federal taxpayer drain funneled to Hawaii. The Hawaiian tribe would have over 400,000 members.

Here is a good updated article.

http://www.angelfire.com/big09a/AkakaTransition110to111Cong.html

Below is about a third of the articles on this url link

Akaka bill transition from 110th to 111th Congress -- Selected news reports and commentaries setting the stage for 2009. Analysis, predictions, and commentary after the elections of November 4, 2008 until the end of 2008.

INDEX OF TRANSITIONAL ITEMS; FULL TEXT IS BELOW THE INDEX IN CHRONOLOGICAL ORDER

November 7: Ken Conklin publishes major essay in Hawaii Reporter online newspaper describing the likelihood the Akaka bill will be passed and signed into law early in 2009, in view of election results; but offering hope that it might be defeated, and reminding readers that civil rights activists have traditionally used the courts to defend against executive and legislative violations of civil rights.

November 18: "The Hill" (Washington D.D. newspaper dedicated to covering Congress) says "Hawaii stands ready to become the Big Kahuna in Washington" and "The Hawaiian punch in Washington is about to get a lot stronger." because of Senator Inouye's great seniority and power, and the larger Democrat majority.

December 8: Honolulu Advertiser Washington D.C. reporter says chances of enacting Akaka bill are very favorable in 2009. [This newspaper itself is very favorable to the bill, so has biased its report. But see December 9]

December 9: The Maui News carries an Associated Press report, distributed nationwide, saying that Obama's election and larger Democrat majorities in Congress will make it easier to pass the Akaka bill in 2009; but there will be fierce resistance from Senate Republicans who might actually be able to block the bill with a filibuster.

December 22: Honolulu Advertiser reports "The arrival of a new Democratic administration in Washington, coupled with Democratic control of Congress, has given renewed hope to supporters of federal recognition for native Hawaiians." But Grassroot Institute President Emeritus says Congress will be focused intently on the economic issues, and Democrats won't want to waste their political capital on akaka bill until late 2009.

December 24: Congresswoman Mazie Hirono (D, HI) says the new Democrat President and larger Democrat majorities in Congress make it likely the Akaka bill will pass; but the very large number of newly elected Representatives give her a big job to "educate" them about the bill.

December 29: Honolulu Star-Bulletin editorial makes a guess about how many votes there will be in the Senate for cloture on the Akaka bill in 2009, and then concludes the bill's backers should press for early action.

December 30: Richard Rowland, founder of Grassroot Institute of Hawaii, short commentary says Akaka bill is going to become law in 2009. It is vague, but one thing for sure -- it will establish a new government in Hawaii, and our people should be allowed to vote on it before it is done without their consent.
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http://www.angelfire.com/bigfiles90/Election2008Aftermath.html
also
http://www.hawaiireporter.com/story.aspx?f2f925b6-5710-4afc-8bbb-edb9f1a4eb94

Hawaii Reporter, November 7, 2008
Looking ahead to 2009 -- The Akaka bill and Hawaiian racial separatism in view of election results from November 4, 2008
by Kenneth R. Conklin, Ph.D.

The election of 2008 produced results disturbing and disheartening to supporters of unity and equality. Hawaii civil rights activists are facing an uncertain future. Both federal and state results are troubling. But all is not lost. Hope lives on. Let's look at how Congress and President Obama are likely to deal with the Akaka bill, what's happening inside Hawaii, and how the courts will play an important role. It's important to realize that civil rights are not only for African-Americans, or ethnic Hawaiians -- civil rights are for Asians and Caucasians as well. The essence of civil rights is that fundamental principles and laws should apply equally to all people regardless of race. Obama seems to agree, if we take his rhetoric seriously.

CONGRESS AND THE AKAKA BILL IN THE COMING YEAR 2009

The Hawaiian Government Reorganization bill, known informally as the Akaka bill, seems likely to be enacted and signed into law early in 2009.

The U.S. House passed the Akaka bill on October 24, 2007 by a vote of 261-153, which included every Democrat voting in lock-step plus a surprising number of left-leaning Republicans.
The Senate has never voted on the Akaka bill directly, throughout the entire history of the bill from 2000 through 2008. However, in June 2006 the Senate voted on a cloture motion to stop a Republican filibuster against the bill. Every Democrat Senator voted in favor of stopping the filibuster, plus several left-leaning Republicans (not counting a few Republicans who were bound by a vote-trading agreement from 2005 to vote in favor of cloture). There were 56 votes in favor of stopping the filibuster, but 60 votes were required; and as a result the bill remained bottled up. In 2007 the Akaka bill passed the Senate Committee on Indian Affairs, but has never been scheduled for floor debate (because of holds initially placed on it by Republican opponents and failure later to schedule it for a vote).

As a result of the election of November 2008, the Democrat majority in the House seems likely to increase by about 20. There's no way to stop the bill in the House in 2009.

It appears there will be at least 55 Democrat Senators, plus two independents who have always caucused with the Democrats. Three of the four Republican Senators whose contests for re-election remain too close to call the day after the election are actually co-sponsors of the Akaka bill: Norm Coleman (Minnesota), Gordon Smith (Oregon), and Ted Stevens (Alaska). So it would seem to make no difference for the Akaka bill whether those three so-called Republicans are re-elected or replaced by Democrats. Add the two RINOs (Republicans in name only) from Maine (Susan Collins and Olympia Snowe), and it might seem likely that the 60 votes needed for cloture will be available in 2009, even without a couple of other Republicans who previously voted for cloture.

However, the Democrats newly elected in 2006 are thus far untested on the Akaka bill -- they and the Democrats newly elected in 2008 might be open to persuasion. There were also a few Democrats who voted in favor of cloture in 2006 but who indicated informally at that time that they might oppose the bill itself if it came to the floor. Senators Coleman and Smith might also be educable, because it was never clear why they originally agreed to co-sponsor the bill and they might not know very much about it.

Considering all the evidence, there is a small but significant possibility that cloture on the Akaka bill can be defeated in 2009 in the Senate, even with the increased Democrat majority.
If there wasn't already enough to worry about, consider this. The Akaka bill that passed the House and stalled in the Senate in the now-concluding 110th Congress was not the most dangerous version of the bill. The current version resulted from "negotiations" during 2005 and 2006 between the Bush administration's Department of Justice and the bill's supporters. The current version includes language that limits the powers of the proposed Akaka tribe in ways not found in previous versions. It says the Akaka tribe must get the approval of the state Legislature before it can get legal jurisdiction over any lands, or build a gambling casino; and that it cannot make claims for land or jurisdiction against military bases. It imposes legal restrictions prohibiting the federal government from "taking land into trust" and prohibiting Hawaii land from being treated as "Indian country." Considering how the state Legislature and Governor have always given the Office of Hawaiian Affairs and Kamehameha Schools whatever they want, these restrictions might not have much real effect in limiting tribal power. But previous versions of the Akaka bill were less restrictive. The version to be introduced in 2009 is likely to be much more "muscular" than the current one, or even more muscular than any previous version; because the increased Democrat majority in Congress and President Obama's pledge to support the bill will embolden the racial separatists to "shoot the moon" or "go for broke".

PRESIDENT OBAMA AND THE AKAKA BILL

Senator Barack Obama has repeatedly made public statements supporting the Akaka bill. During the debate on the cloture motion in June 2006 Obama made a short speech on the Senate floor supporting the bill. And during the primary campaign of early to mid 2008 he repeated his pledge to support the bill if elected. But consider Obama's publicly stated basic beliefs, below, which are clearly contrary to the Akaka bill. Is he a hypocrite, making pretty speeches whose principles he does not actually support? Or does he really believe in his statements of principle? Could he be persuaded that the Akaka bill is morally wrong? Here are some things Obama said publicly on two important recent occasions.

In Berlin in July 2008, in a speech attended by 200,000 cheering Germans in the shadow of the Berlin Wall, Obama said: "... the greatest danger of all is to allow new walls to divide us from one another. ... The walls between races and tribes; natives and immigrants; Christian and Muslim and Jew cannot stand. These now are the walls we must tear down. ... Not only have walls come down in Berlin, but they have come down in Belfast, where Protestant and Catholic found a way to live together; in the Balkans, where our Atlantic alliance ended wars and brought savage war criminals to justice; and in South Africa, where the struggle of a courageous people defeated apartheid."

In his election victory speech in Chicago's Grant Park on November 4-5, 2008, televised to all America and around the world, Obama said: "If there is anyone out there who still doubts that America is a place where all things are possible, who still wonders if the dream of our founders is alive in our time, who still questions the power of our democracy, tonight is your answer. ... more than two centuries later, a government of the people, by the people and for the people has not perished from this Earth. ... The road ahead will be long. Our climb will be steep. We may not get there in one year or even in one term. But, America, I have never been more hopeful than I am tonight that we will get there. I promise you, we as a people will get there. ... I will listen to you, especially when we disagree. ... In this country, we rise or fall as one nation, as one people. ... Let's remember that it was a man from this state who first carried the banner of the Republican Party to the White House, a party founded on the values of self-reliance and individual liberty and national unity. Those are values that we all share. And while the Democratic Party has won a great victory tonight, we do so with a measure of humility and determination to heal the divides that have held back our progress. As Lincoln said to a nation far more divided than ours, we are not enemies but friends. Though passion may have strained, it must not break our bonds of affection. ... This is our chance to answer that call. This is our moment. This is our time, to ... reclaim the American dream and reaffirm that fundamental truth, that, out of many, we are one; that while we breathe, we hope. And where we are met with cynicism and doubts and those who tell us that we can't, we will respond with that timeless creed that sums up the spirit of a people: Yes, we can."

It is inconceivable that a President who truly believes in these fundamental principles could allow the Akaka bill to become law. Regardless of our misgivings about his true beliefs, we civil rights activists in Hawaii must take President Obama at his word and work to persuade him to oppose this racist, terribly divisive bill.

HAWAII ELECTION RESULTS SOLIDIFY RACIAL SEPARATISM

The already-huge Democrat majority increased: it will now be 45-6 in the House in 2009, and 23-2 in the Senate. Not all Democrats are racial separatists. Several have said privately that they oppose the Akaka bill but dare not say so publicly. However, it doesn't really matter what they believe in their hearts or what they say privately -- what matters politically is only what they say in public and how they vote on bills and resolutions. The Hawaii Legislature has repeatedly passed resolutions supporting the Akaka bill unanimously except for one or two votes on one or two occasions. Governor Lingle (a RINO) has zealously pushed the Akaka bill, and has two more years in office. OHA has adopted a policy of pursuing "Plan B" -- a plan for implementing the Akaka bill inside the State of Hawaii, creating a state-recognized tribe, even if the bill does not pass Congress. The legislative and executive branches have repeatedly passed bills, resolutions, and amicus briefs giving land, money, power, and political support to racially exclusionary institutions and programs.

The state Constitution forces the government to put on the ballot once every ten years the question whether there should be a state Constitutional Convention for the purpose of proposing amendments to the Constitution to be ratified by the people in a later election. In November 2008 the voters had a chance to force a Con-Con. But powerful groups including labor unions and Office of Hawaiian Affairs opposed it, and persuaded voters that a Con-Con would cost too much money and would endanger their "rights." A Con-Con might have abolished the office of Hawaiian Affairs. It might have proposed amendments such as: "no public lands, money, or legal jurisdiction shall be given to public or private institutions which are racially exclusionary"; or: "the public lands of Hawaii belong to all the people of Hawaii without racial distinction." But the opportunity for a Con-Con has now been lost and will probably not be offered again until 2018.

Four incumbent trustees of the Office of Hawaiian Affairs were on the ballot for re-election. Three of them had opponents. The chairperson of OHA, Haunani Aponiona, had the strongest opponent she has ever faced. Colin Kippen ran on a platform opposing OHA's expenditures for lobbying the Akaka bill (although he favors the bill itself) and opposing OHA expenditures for advertising for the Kau Inoa racial registry; and pledging to clean up the corruption and nepotism at OHA. Kippen had numerous ads on TV, radio, and newspapers. But in the end all four incumbents won re-election by wide margins.

Hawaii election results said "Don't rock the boat" and "Give us even more of the same."

THE COURTS, AND MAINLAND INSTITUTIONS, OFFER HOPE FOR CIVIL RIGHTS IN HAWAII

The civil rights movement on the mainland, from the 1950s through the present, relied heavily on lawsuits. When the U.S. Supreme Court ruled in 1954 that schools in the South must desegregate, several Southern states resisted mightily.

Governors "stood in the schoolhouse door" to stop black students from entering. Legislatures tried to convert public schools into private schools to avoid desegregation. The public used the power of the ballot to elect racist legislators and to exercise initiative or referendum to create racist laws. But courts ruled that segregationist laws were unconstitutional. In later decades Northern cities, where local school districts were all-black or all-white because of neighborhoods that were racially homogeneous, were ordered by federal judges to use buses to send children long distances across district lines in order to promote racial integration.

Courts have authority to overturn both executive decisions and legislated laws, if they are unconstitutional. When Southern state legislatures passed laws, or governors created regulations or administrative procedures, to protect segregation, courts over-ruled them. In recent years it has become more difficult for courts to intervene, because of increased restrictions on who has "standing" to bring lawsuits. It has become fashionable for some judges to dismiss civil rights lawsuits on grounds that certain issues are "political questions" where the courts must give way to decisions made by voters or legislatures. In a recent lawsuit to dismantle OHA, a misguided federal judge actually dismissed the case by ruling that the mere fact that the Akaka bill was sitting in Congress awaiting possible action made the existence of OHA a "political question" which the court should not consider. Nevertheless, the Marbury v. Madison Supreme Court decision from 1803 established the right of courts to review and overturn executive and legislative decisions; and such judicial review has a long and distinguished history of protecting civil rights. No matter how large a majority might try to strip groups or individuals of their civil rights, the courts have the authority to protect those rights.

In February 2000 the U.S. Supreme Court ruled in Rice v. Cayetano that it was unconstitutional for the State of Hawaii to prohibit people with no Hawaiian native blood from voting for trustees of the Office of Hawaiian Affairs. Thus the U.S. Supreme Court overturned a provision of the Constitution of the State of Hawaii that had been approved by a vote of the people on a ballot proposal coming from the state Constitutional Convention of 1978. Later in 2000 a federal court took another piece out of the state Constitution by ruling that race cannot be used to prohibit someone with no native blood from running as a candidate for OHA trustee. That should have been obvious from the Rice decision, but OHA and the state government fought tooth and nail against it until rulings came down from the U.S. District Court in Honolulu and, on appeal by the State, from the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals in San Francisco).

On December 5, 2002 Hawaii circuit court judge Sabrina McKenna ruled against OHA, concluding that the State of Hawaii has a right to sell ceded lands. OHA appealed Judge McKenna's decision. On January 31, 2008 the Hawaii Supreme Court ruled 5-0 that Judge McKenna was mistaken. The Hawaii Supreme Court ruled that the State of Hawaii is permanently prohibited from selling any ceded lands until such time as a settlement has been reached regarding the claims of Native Hawaiians, as suggested by the apology resolution passed by Congress in 1993. The State of Hawaii filed a petition for certiorari with the U.S. Supreme Court asking it to review and overturn the state Supreme Court decision. Twenty-nine other states shortly thereafter filed an amicus brief supporting Hawaii's petition for certiorari. On October 1, 2008 the U.S. Supreme Court granted the petition for certiorari, and will probably hear oral arguments (and perhaps issue a ruling) during the term that ends in June 2009.

The U.S. Supreme Court decision desegregating voting for OHA trustees, and federal court decisions on candidacy for OHA trustee, and Supreme Court decision to make a ruling in the ceded lands case, show that federal courts will come to the rescue to protect civil rights in Hawaii even when the voters, the state Legislature, or state Supreme Court try to violate those rights.

Mainland law firms and institutions have become increasingly involved in supporting civil rights in Hawaii. Local civil rights activists lost the Rice v. Cayetano voting rights case at both the U.S. District Court in Honolulu and the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals in San Francisco. Fortunately a mainland law firm led the way to victory at the U.S. Supreme Court. In the followup Arakaki lawsuit regarding candidacy, the Pacific Legal Foundation headquartered in California provided an important amicus brief. Mainland law firms and institutions helped with the Kamehameha Schools desegregation lawsuits. Attorneys General of 29 states filed an amicus brief asking the Supreme Court to take up the ceded lands case. U.S. Senators and Representatives have spoken against the Akaka bill and have fought valiantly to defeat it. The Heritage Foundation has repeatedly helped. The U.S. Civil Rights Commission held hearings and published a lengthy report opposing the Akaka bill. Numerous nationally syndicated magazine and newspaper writers have published articles opposing it.

The willingness of federal courts and mainland institutions to intervene on racial issues in the State of Hawaii shows an understanding that a violation of civil rights anywhere in America is a matter of great concern for all America's people. Civil rights activists in Hawaii do the same thing civil rights activists have done elsewhere: we speak truth to power and use the courts when necessary to defend our rights.

So even if the Akaka bill is enacted by Congress and signed by President Obama; even if the state Legislature tries to recognize an Akaka tribe or hand over money, land, and political power to a racially exclusionary government; we will fight in the courts and can reasonably hope to win. We will never give up. As OHA chair Haunani Apoliona wrote in a song she composed with opposite intent (E Mau Ana Ka Ha'aheo: Let the Pride Endure Forever): "E ho'a kakou i ka lama kupono no na hulu Hawai'i. E kukulu a'e kakou no ke ea o ka 'aina, me ke aloha a me ke ahonui." (Let's light the torch of justice for Hawaiians. Let's build up sovereignty, with love and patience.)
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#1013309 --- 04/22/09 08:49 PM Re: Going to Pieces [Re: Rich_Tallcot]
Rich_Tallcot Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/19/03
Posts: 5565
Loc: Greeneville, TN
Here is an update on where and how to order the Going to Pieces book and DVD

The book is and DVD are $20.00 each.
For individual orders or discounts on group or bulk orders for the book, contact Elaine at toppin@aol.com

ORDER THE BOOK BY MAIL: send a check payable to Equilocus for $20.00 which includes shipping/handling. mail to: Elaine Willman, 2790 South Pine Tree, Hobart, WI 54155

ORDER THE DVD: send a check payable to CERF for $20.00, includes shipping/handling to: CERF PO Box 0379 Gresham, WI 54128

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#1013524 --- 04/23/09 09:20 AM Re: Going to Pieces [Re: bluezone]
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32556
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Does Akaka represent the USA or another "nation"?


Thanks RT for the information. I have read Akaka postion before and it strikes me as odd how he can represent the USA but have a higher interest in sepreating the country. Did he not take an oath to the USA?
_________________________
"OUR COUNTRY IS IN MOURNING, A SOLDIER DIED TODAY."

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