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#1517405 --- 07/20/18 08:59 PM Heads Up, Seneca County Sewer District #1 and #2 Customers
all seeing eye Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/05/07
Posts: 2220
Loc: Seneca Lake
In-District Customers of Seneca County Sewer Districts (Lakeshore Landing, Spring Meadows, and Village of Ovid) and

Out-of-District customers (Hamlets of Willard and Romulus, Village of Lodi and Varick Sewer District #2 (East Lake Road.)

Just when I thought Seneca County government could not surprise me, I sit here amazed at the agenda for the July 24 Board of Supervisors and Committee Meetings:

SENECA COUNTY BOARD OF SUPERVISORS
STANDING COMMITTEE MEETINGS
Tuesday, July 24, 2018


PUBLIC WORKS (Trout, Chair; Hayssen, Vice-Chair; Garlick-Lorenzetti; Kronenwetter; Brownell)

1. ISSUE: Approve Final Professional Engineering Report for Seneca County Sewer District 1 & 2 and the Alternative #3 Centralized Treatment at Willard WWTP

SPECIAL BOARD MEETING AT 7:00:

APPROVE FINAL PROFESSIONAL ENGINEERING REPORT FOR SENECA COUNTY SEWER DISTRICT 1 & 2 AND THE ALTERNATIVE #3 CENTRALIZED TREATMENT AT WILLARD WWTP

Board Agenda and Resolution

There has been no information about a proposed consolidation of Seneca County Sewer District #1 and Sewer District #2 provided to the public. Customers have not been advised of the purpose, value or cost of the project.
An engineering firm, Barton and LoGuidice, has been working on the plan, with the County Manager and the County Commissioner of Public Works, with a few “workshops,” for “stakeholders.” The stakeholders list does not include a single residential customer, nor the management of Spring Meadows or the HOA at Lakeshore Landing.

It does include:
• State agencies
• Hillside Children’s Center
• Seneca Iron Works (Owned by Earl Martin, new owner of the Depot, which has no sewer connection.)

A link to the 3rd Workshop presentation is below:

3rd Workshop on Sewer District Extension and Consolidation May 2018

(The report the BOS will be voting on has NOT been made available to the public, IMHO, in violation of the Open Meetings Law.)

These comments are based on the presentation from May.

The total estimated cost of the project is $25,000,000 ($18,000,000 for plant upgrades and $7,000,000 for new mains and pumps stations).

The presentation describes increases in costs to various areas, IF ALL OF THE GRANTS AND NO INTEREST LOANS ARE AWARDED. There is no adjustment for existing debt service on Sewer #1 or the significant surplus in Sewer #2.

For many customers, these costs will be in addition to municipal charges for pipe and pump maintenance and any debt service. (I have to say the tables are confusing as some existing costs are annual and some are quarterly.)

What is apparent is that the increases will be significant.

Some examples:
Location
Spring Meadows From $200 To $ 648
Village of Lodi From $180 To $ 421
Hamlet of Romulus from $120 To $ 648

It does not correct the fees to Sampson State Park, which is $180/quarter or $720/year and leaves them at 4 EDUS, despite:
• day visitors;
• 103 slip marina;
• superintendent’s house;
• Cottages 10;
• Cabins 7;
• Campsite/RV sites 300;
• fresh water filling and sewage dumping stations; restaurant/camp store , public restroom and bathhouses.

What is the cost benefit of running a sewer line MILES down 96A from the Hillside Wastewater Treatment Plant (WWTP) in Sewer #2 (Hillside Campus) to Willard vs upgrading the plant. This sewer plant serves approximately 100 residents and staff as well as the employees at First Light (formerly Finger Lakes Technology Group.) It is NOT implicated in the phosphorus contamination of Reeder Creek.

There are no current customers along the new proposed line from the Hillside entrance to Sampson.

It appears to be an attempt to extend the County Sewer Districts to serve the proposed development of the Depot without going through the legal process.

The “benefited users,” including the new owner of the Depot, should be paying the cost of the extension, not the existing customers and it should follow the process required for an extension of a County District in the County Law, including a referendum.

The other WWTP in Sewer #2 is OWNED by the State of New York. Has the State agreed to any of this and agreed to pay their fair share? The State upgraded the Five Points plant in 2001 to assure dedicated access to sewage treatment for the 1500 inmates and staff. Will the State accept this idea?

There are SERIOUS problems at the Willard WWTP (Sewer #1). The DEC said in 2014 that the existing screw pumps need to be replaced as they are in danger of failing or deteriorating “to the point that they can no longer keep pace with peak influent flows. (i.e. Sewage back-ups in the collection system which then create unauthorized bypasses is an excellent indicator that the pump has failed.) The screw lift pumps are a critical piece of equipment which must be maintained for the entire POTW process to work.

In other words, if the pumps fail, raw sewage will flow into Seneca Lake, all along the collection line. A bond was issued in 2015 to replace the pumps. However, the pumps have not been replaced.

The County told DEC its solution was to “escrow funds” using the bond revenue received “in the pursuit of capital improvements of the system. Several large improvement projects have been put on hold until the long term path is defined through a Preliminary Engineering Report. This bond revenue, exceeding $800,000, would be used in the event of an immediate reaction to a screw pump failure.”

That’s nice. They will fix the pumps AFTER they fail and contaminate Seneca Lake (and probably some residences), even though the customers are paying debt service and interest on the bond to repair the pumps.

Amazingly, DEC seems to have accepted this solution.

I have NO idea what is in the report that the Supervisors have before them, but I would suggest that customers of the Districts contact the Supervisors at supervisors@co.seneca.ny.us and ask them to slow down the process and share the report with the public. Customers might want to attend the meeting on Tuesday.

While the DEC set a date of August 1, for this report, if they accepted an escrow account, instead of replacing failing pumps, they will accept a short extension of the Report, beyond August 1, to address public concerns.
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#1517406 --- 07/20/18 10:02 PM Re: Heads Up, Seneca County Sewer District #1 and #2 Customers [Re: all seeing eye]
Gdog Offline
Member

Registered: 01/04/04
Posts: 328
You can not be serious!!! There is something very dirty in Denmark. I almost want to assume there are some major kickbacks going on if this is going to happen.

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#1517480 --- 07/22/18 12:36 PM Re: Heads Up, Seneca County Sewer District #1 and #2 Customers [Re: Gdog]
scwoodchuck Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/22/14
Posts: 1921
Loc: LOST IN SPACE
She's serious but not very accurate. If something stinks in Denmark it's the way you are getting your information.
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I can't wait till humans evolve into an intelligent species.

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#1517481 --- 07/22/18 01:01 PM Re: Heads Up, Seneca County Sewer District #1 and #2 Customers [Re: scwoodchuck]
all seeing eye Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/05/07
Posts: 2220
Loc: Seneca Lake
The information I used was from a powerpoint presented by Barton and LoGuidice, in May, to stakeholders. I posted a link. It was obtained from the County under Freedom of Information.

Shocking you would question anything from the County.

Neither the County nor Barton and LoGuidice, have made any information available to the public, much less told residents that their sewer rates were going to double or triple. Much of the cost going to help with Depot development.

What I think "stinks in Denmark," is putting the approval on the fasttrack, with out informing the public who will have to pay for it.

Originally Posted By: scwoodchuck
She's serious but not very accurate. If something stinks in Denmark it's the way you are getting your information.
_________________________
I wonder if clouds ever look down on us and say "Hey look, that one is shaped like an idiot."

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#1517484 --- 07/22/18 01:37 PM Re: Heads Up, Seneca County Sewer District #1 and #2 Customers [Re: all seeing eye]
Gdog Offline
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Registered: 01/04/04
Posts: 328
There has to be public hearings. And I think there is some sort of connection between Engineering and possibly officials. It seems things are not even being questioned.

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#1517485 --- 07/22/18 02:08 PM Re: Heads Up, Seneca County Sewer District #1 and #2 Customers [Re: Gdog]
all seeing eye Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/05/07
Posts: 2220
Loc: Seneca Lake
The proposal suggests they are going to try and create a "Joint District" using Inter Municipal Agreements, rather than follow the County Law which would require hearing to extend, consolidate or dissolve County Special Districts, which includes Sewer. Those laws require a public referendum, not just a hearing, which the BOS not only ignores, it doesn't even require a report from the hearing, before making a decision.



Originally Posted By: Gdog
There has to be public hearings. And I think there is some sort of connection between Engineering and possibly officials. It seems things are not even being questioned.
_________________________
I wonder if clouds ever look down on us and say "Hey look, that one is shaped like an idiot."

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#1517486 --- 07/22/18 02:40 PM Re: Heads Up, Seneca County Sewer District #1 and #2 Customers [Re: all seeing eye]
John Q Public Offline
Member

Registered: 07/16/13
Posts: 43
Loc: NY
I can't believe Bob and Cindy will go along with what is being suggested here. Time will tell. If they don't, is there another vote in Committee to stop it?

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#1517488 --- 07/22/18 02:46 PM Re: Heads Up, Seneca County Sewer District #1 and #2 Customers [Re: John Q Public]
all seeing eye Offline
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Registered: 08/05/07
Posts: 2220
Loc: Seneca Lake
The other members of Public Works are Don Trout, Ernie Brownell, and Paul Kronenwetter. Hopefully one or more of them will table this until the public can be informed.

If not, there are other votes going forward, but the BOS is going to be told, they have no choice, the next step is to implement the proposal that the BOS submitted to DEC.




Originally Posted By: John Q Public
I can't believe Bob and Cindy will go along with what is being suggested here. Time will tell. If they don't, is there another vote in Committee to stop it?
_________________________
I wonder if clouds ever look down on us and say "Hey look, that one is shaped like an idiot."

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#1517491 --- 07/22/18 02:59 PM Re: Heads Up, Seneca County Sewer District #1 and #2 Customers [Re: all seeing eye]
scwoodchuck Offline
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Registered: 05/22/14
Posts: 1921
Loc: LOST IN SPACE
So tell us why the BOS has "no choice". And explain how the state possibly doesn't know about this, when the DEC is a state agency.

Why don't you explain why this is on a fast track.


Edited by scwoodchuck (07/22/18 03:01 PM)
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I can't wait till humans evolve into an intelligent species.

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#1517492 --- 07/22/18 03:25 PM Re: Heads Up, Seneca County Sewer District #1 and #2 Customers [Re: scwoodchuck]
all seeing eye Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/05/07
Posts: 2220
Loc: Seneca Lake
Of course, DEC knows about it. Karis Manning was at the May workshop.

DEC Probably has the report already. Which is why the rush to get BOS approval by August 1 is ridiculous.

The only reason to rush this is to do it without informing the public that is going to pay for it.

What other reason can you think of? Good government? Transparency?



Originally Posted By: scwoodchuck
So tell us why the BOS has "no choice". And explain how the state possibly doesn't know about this, when the DEC is a state agency.

Why don't you explain why this is on a fast track.


Edited by all seeing eye (07/22/18 03:27 PM)
_________________________
I wonder if clouds ever look down on us and say "Hey look, that one is shaped like an idiot."

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#1517493 --- 07/22/18 03:28 PM Re: Heads Up, Seneca County Sewer District #1 and #2 Customers [Re: all seeing eye]
Gdog Offline
Member

Registered: 01/04/04
Posts: 328
Can they really not follow procedures and skip the referendum. I think this needs to be known by all that will be affected with these enormous rate hikes. I am a user of Sewer District 1 and this will be a mess. What about the Village of Lodi. I know they could not afford 3 times higher rates.

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#1517498 --- 07/22/18 04:18 PM Re: Heads Up, Seneca County Sewer District #1 and #2 Customers [Re: Gdog]
all seeing eye Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/05/07
Posts: 2220
Loc: Seneca Lake
I think, based on the May proposal, they are going to try, but can't tell until I see what the BOS will be voting on.

Most people in the County Sewer Districts can't afford it, but it will hit the Village of Lodi, Village of Ovid and the hamlets worst.

It might take a lawsuit to stop them. Not sure fairness and reasonableness arguments will work.
_________________________
I wonder if clouds ever look down on us and say "Hey look, that one is shaped like an idiot."

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#1517519 --- 07/22/18 07:20 PM Re: Heads Up, Seneca County Sewer District #1 and #2 Customers [Re: all seeing eye]
scwoodchuck Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/22/14
Posts: 1921
Loc: LOST IN SPACE
There is a perfectly ligitimate reason for the way it's being done, you just withhold some details and put a negative spin on it. There are two choices, do it your way now or do it when the DEC comes crashing down on you, their way.
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I can't wait till humans evolve into an intelligent species.

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#1517520 --- 07/22/18 08:23 PM Re: Heads Up, Seneca County Sewer District #1 and #2 Customers [Re: scwoodchuck]
all seeing eye Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/05/07
Posts: 2220
Loc: Seneca Lake
Can you share what the "perfectly legitimate" reason might be?

Pretty sure DEC isn't crashing down on anyone. Not their style. If you think so, please share an example.

Originally Posted By: scwoodchuck
There is a perfectly ligitimate reason for the way it's being done, you just withhold some details and put a negative spin on it. There are two choices, do it your way now or do it when the DEC comes crashing down on you, their way.
_________________________
I wonder if clouds ever look down on us and say "Hey look, that one is shaped like an idiot."

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#1517521 --- 07/22/18 08:41 PM Re: Heads Up, Seneca County Sewer District #1 and #2 Customers [Re: all seeing eye]
Gdog Offline
Member

Registered: 01/04/04
Posts: 328
DEC inspectors are very easy to work with. They give you ample time to make repairs and/or improvements. They give you a timeline that suits both parties. I have dealt with them numerous times.

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#1517522 --- 07/22/18 08:56 PM Re: Heads Up, Seneca County Sewer District #1 and #2 Customers [Re: Gdog]
all seeing eye Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/05/07
Posts: 2220
Loc: Seneca Lake
I agree.

But DEC is useful to scare the uninformed to make uninformed decisions and statements.






Edited by all seeing eye (07/22/18 09:01 PM)
_________________________
I wonder if clouds ever look down on us and say "Hey look, that one is shaped like an idiot."

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#1517534 --- 07/23/18 07:27 AM Re: Heads Up, Seneca County Sewer District #1 and #2 Customers [Re: all seeing eye]
scwoodchuck Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/22/14
Posts: 1921
Loc: LOST IN SPACE
It's way too obvious that you two are working together on this wink. You are both insiders with a personal agenda. In the end everything will work out because there are too many board members who aren't as dumb as you think. There are three board members who are just plain obstructionists that try to make things seem more complicated and cause problems for the county manager and the rest of the board. Things have improved since Churchill left but there are two more board members that need to go.

Didn't the DEC already give them a deadline on this sewer issue sick


Edited by scwoodchuck (07/23/18 07:28 AM)
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I can't wait till humans evolve into an intelligent species.

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#1517548 --- 07/23/18 12:02 PM Re: Heads Up, Seneca County Sewer District #1 and #2 Customers [Re: Gdog]
all seeing eye Offline
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Registered: 08/05/07
Posts: 2220
Loc: Seneca Lake
Just got access to the Final Engineering report. No mention of Referenda in its goals:

Additional long-term project goals and objectives included:

Development of a sustainable and affordable capital improvement plan and plan of finance for County Sewer District 1 and 2 wastewater treatment and conveyance systems to achieve consistent compliance with WWTP SPDES permits;

Providing capacity for anticipated organic growth and development;

Addressing I/I within the existing in- and out-of-district collection systems, resulting in reduced flows and operating costs;

Development of IMAs and agreements between the Districts and the various in- and out-of-district municipalities and major institutional users;

Simplification of daily operations and process controls through enhanced automation and remote communications;

Providing for consistent, fair and equitable allocation of sewer debt service, operation and maintenance costs across all users; and

Consolidation of districts and associated infrastructure assets for simplicity of operations.

"Anticipated organic growth and development," means providing a sewer services to the Depot property bought by Earl Martin:

2.2.6

Anticipated Development

Future development within the Sewer Districts is anticipated to occur on the former Depot property. Approximately 7,000 acres of the Depot was sold to a local developer in 2017 who is currently developing plans to expand operations onto the Depot property. The proposed manufacturing facility, Seneca Ironworks, will provide manufacturing of agricultural equipment. Following expansion, it is anticipated this facility will employ 300 people and generate approximately 200,000 gallons per month (average of ~6,700 gpd) of pre-treated industrial wastewater. Additionally, the future development will include construction of an estimated 30 homes as well as plans for potential commercial development along the interior County Road 135. The additional development potential is largely dependent upon future access to sanitary sewer conveyances




Originally Posted By: Gdog
Can they really not follow procedures and skip the referendum. I think this needs to be known by all that will be affected with these enormous rate hikes. I am a user of Sewer District 1 and this will be a mess. What about the Village of Lodi. I know they could not afford 3 times higher rates.


Edited by all seeing eye (07/23/18 12:31 PM)
_________________________
I wonder if clouds ever look down on us and say "Hey look, that one is shaped like an idiot."

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#1517555 --- 07/23/18 01:07 PM Re: Heads Up, Seneca County Sewer District #1 and #2 Customers [Re: all seeing eye]
Gdog Offline
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Registered: 01/04/04
Posts: 328
Very deceptive, No real mention of any facts or intentions.

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#1517561 --- 07/23/18 02:01 PM Re: Heads Up, Seneca County Sewer District #1 and #2 Customers [Re: Gdog]
all seeing eye Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/05/07
Posts: 2220
Loc: Seneca Lake
And, while the 3rd Workshop discusses a "'joint' project structure," implemented by intermunicipal agreements, this report is strangely silent on the required legal steps to implement the recommendation.

It just moves along with DEC approval, application for grants and loans, then construction:

Page 215:

Project Schedule Milestone

Submit PER to NYSDEC in accordance with NOV conditions August 2018
Submit Final PER to EFC for CWSRF Project Listing, Draft/Final IUP September 2018
Environmental Review (SEQR/SERP) Fall 2018
Map & Plans - 202b Improvements Process Fall/Winter 2018
Agreement Negotiations/Revisions/Execution Winter/Spring 2019
Bond Resolution(s) Spring 2019
Submit CWSRF funding application to NYSEFC Spring 2019
Submit WIIA Grant Application June 2019
Submit 2019 CFA Application (WQIP, ESD) July 2019
Close on Short Term Financing (CWSRF) Fall 2019
Final Design and Permitting Winter/Spring 2019/20
Submit Project Plans & Specifications for Review and Approval Spring 2020
Permits and Approvals Spring/Summer 2020
Project Letting/Bidding Phase Fall 2020
Award Bids Winter 2020
Construction Start Spring 2021
_________________________
I wonder if clouds ever look down on us and say "Hey look, that one is shaped like an idiot."

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#1517574 --- 07/23/18 03:52 PM Re: Heads Up, Seneca County Sewer District #1 and #2 Customers [Re: all seeing eye]
all seeing eye Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/05/07
Posts: 2220
Loc: Seneca Lake
The report also does not include those unpleasant charts providing the existing and proposed costs for various users.

The public, especially the customers in the Sewer Districts deserve a lot more information before the BOS votes.
_________________________
I wonder if clouds ever look down on us and say "Hey look, that one is shaped like an idiot."

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#1517578 --- 07/23/18 04:07 PM Re: Heads Up, Seneca County Sewer District #1 and #2 Customers [Re: all seeing eye]
Gdog Offline
Member

Registered: 01/04/04
Posts: 328
AGREED!!!

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#1517586 --- 07/23/18 07:29 PM Re: Heads Up, Seneca County Sewer District #1 and #2 Customers [Re: Gdog]
John Q Public Offline
Member

Registered: 07/16/13
Posts: 43
Loc: NY
Lets see the "woodchuck" argue that point. He calls others insiders but he acts like he is one himself. Or she.


Edited by John Q Public (07/23/18 07:45 PM)

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#1517640 --- 07/24/18 11:31 AM Re: Heads Up, Seneca County Sewer District #1 and #2 Customers [Re: all seeing eye]
all seeing eye Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/05/07
Posts: 2220
Loc: Seneca Lake
I received a copy of ANOTHER Professional Engineering report that DOES have the rates to customers in it.

THESE ARE IN ADDITION TO CURRENT FEES. SO THESE SHOULD BE ADDED TO CURRENT COSTS:

An EDU is basically a residential property.

The first method allocates the cost of the treatment and conveyances to ALL users, meaning Lodi and Ovid will pay for the new lines from the depot ($250.00/EDU/year), benefiting the new owner of the Depot.

Sewer District 1 Sewer District 2 $250.00/EDU/year


The Second method allocates costs to the District in which the cost is incurred, with a lower cost to Sewer 1, which only includes the plant upgrade than Sewer 2 which includes both plant upgrades and new lines and pumps.

Sewer District 1 $186.00/EDU/year

Sewer District 2 $324.00/EDU/year

_________________________
I wonder if clouds ever look down on us and say "Hey look, that one is shaped like an idiot."

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#1517642 --- 07/24/18 11:50 AM Re: Heads Up, Seneca County Sewer District #1 and #2 Customers [Re: all seeing eye]
all seeing eye Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/05/07
Posts: 2220
Loc: Seneca Lake
Here is the explanation from the Report on the need to extend the district to accommodate "Future Development"

2.2.6 Anticipated Development

Future development within the Sewer Districts is anticipated to occur on the former Depot property. Approximately 7,000 acres of the Depot was sold to a local developer in 2017 who is currently developing plans to expand operations onto the Depot property. The proposed manufacturing facility, Seneca Ironworks, will provide manufacturing of agricultural equipment. Following expansion, it is anticipated this facility will employ 300 people and generate approximately
200,000 gallons per month (average of ~6,700 gpd) of pre-treated industrial wastewater. Additionally, the future development will include construction of an estimated 30 homes as well as plans for potential commercial development along the interior County Road 135. The additional development potential is largely dependent upon future access to sanitary sewer conveyances.
_________________________
I wonder if clouds ever look down on us and say "Hey look, that one is shaped like an idiot."

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#1517655 --- 07/24/18 02:16 PM Re: Heads Up, Seneca County Sewer District #1 and #2 Customers [Re: all seeing eye]
Gdog Offline
Member

Registered: 01/04/04
Posts: 328
Ok, what is mandatory to meet DEC, and what is a being engineered as (future development) at such a huge burden to its users?

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#1517656 --- 07/24/18 02:41 PM Re: Heads Up, Seneca County Sewer District #1 and #2 Customers [Re: Gdog]
all seeing eye Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/05/07
Posts: 2220
Loc: Seneca Lake
The three plants need to be upgraded and updated to meet new discharge limits, be more energy efficient, put in electronic monitoring, etc. and for long delayed maintenance, like roofs, windows, doors, etc. They are pretty old. Most of the pump stations along the existing lines need upgrading, too, but that really is not on DEC's radar unless there is a failure.



The cost projections in the plan ignore the fact that DOCCS owns the Five Points plant and would be responsible for most of the cost. So those costs are included as of they are county expenses.


Complete remodelling of the Willard Plant, to accommodate all the sewage from both districts, converting Hillside and Five Points to pump stations, and all the "conveyances" to transfer the waste to Willard is not necessary to make DEC happy.
_________________________
I wonder if clouds ever look down on us and say "Hey look, that one is shaped like an idiot."

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#1517673 --- 07/24/18 03:44 PM Re: Heads Up, Seneca County Sewer District #1 and #2 Customers [Re: all seeing eye]
lovinglife Offline
Member

Registered: 03/18/02
Posts: 131
I don't know why people think that because someone has "facts" they have a personal agenda against others. More people need to be brought up to speed and not rely on friends or cronies telling the truth all the time. Thank you for posting and trying to explain some of this to all of us....I don't understand it all but am trying to.

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#1517684 --- 07/24/18 05:10 PM Re: Heads Up, Seneca County Sewer District #1 and #2 Customers [Re: all seeing eye]
John Q Public Offline
Member

Registered: 07/16/13
Posts: 43
Loc: NY
very helpful information. Where is chucky?

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#1517696 --- 07/24/18 08:45 PM Re: Heads Up, Seneca County Sewer District #1 and #2 Customers [Re: all seeing eye]
scwoodchuck Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/22/14
Posts: 1921
Loc: LOST IN SPACE
Originally Posted By: all seeing eye
The proposal suggests they are going to try and create a "Joint District" using Inter Municipal Agreements, rather than follow the County Law which would require hearing to extend, consolidate or dissolve County Special Districts, which includes Sewer. Those laws require a public referendum, not just a hearing, which the BOS not only ignores, it doesn't even require a report from the hearing, before making a decision
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I can't wait till humans evolve into an intelligent species.

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#1517698 --- 07/24/18 08:52 PM Re: Heads Up, Seneca County Sewer District #1 and #2 Customers [Re: all seeing eye]
scwoodchuck Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/22/14
Posts: 1921
Loc: LOST IN SPACE
You said;
"If not, there are other votes going forward, but the BOS is going to be told, they have no choice, the next step is to implement the proposal that the BOS submitted to DEC."
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I can't wait till humans evolve into an intelligent species.

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#1517699 --- 07/24/18 08:54 PM Re: Heads Up, Seneca County Sewer District #1 and #2 Customers [Re: all seeing eye]
scwoodchuck Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/22/14
Posts: 1921
Loc: LOST IN SPACE
Originally Posted By: all seeing eye
I agree.

But DEC is useful to scare the uninformed to make uninformed decisions and statements.




_________________________
I can't wait till humans evolve into an intelligent species.

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#1517700 --- 07/24/18 08:54 PM Re: Heads Up, Seneca County Sewer District #1 and #2 Customers [Re: John Q Public]
all seeing eye Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/05/07
Posts: 2220
Loc: Seneca Lake
As usual, what was distributed to the BOS before the meeting, was NOT what was distributed by the engineers to the BOS at the meeting.

The engineers described it as the Executive Summary, which was not included in either report I saw.

Of course, no one on the BOS had any opportunity to review the document prior to discussing it.

And, as usual it was discussed without the public having a clue what they were talking about, as no summary was provided to the attendees.

There was some discussion about the resolution. The total project cost $25,000,000. The engineers have no idea if the State of New York, which owns the Five Point plant and gets sewage treatment for Willard DTC will move forward, but the engineers asked the State to contribute to the project. Not surprisingly they haven't received an answer. The projected costs depend on getting a $5,000,000 grant.

I was able to look at the document, at least to get the estimated cost per user.


The cost per year for Sewer #1 is estimated at $414/EDU/year (up from $180)

For Sewer #2 the estimate is $637/EDU/year (up from $200)


The project was approved by the BOS, but the engineers say the details can be tweaked.


Edited by all seeing eye (07/24/18 08:55 PM)
_________________________
I wonder if clouds ever look down on us and say "Hey look, that one is shaped like an idiot."

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#1517701 --- 07/24/18 08:58 PM Re: Heads Up, Seneca County Sewer District #1 and #2 Customers [Re: all seeing eye]
scwoodchuck Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/22/14
Posts: 1921
Loc: LOST IN SPACE
Originally Posted By: all seeing eye
Of course, DEC knows about it. Karis Manning was at the May workshop.

DEC Probably has the report already. Which is why the rush to get BOS approval by August 1 is ridiculous.

The only reason to rush this is to do it without informing the public that is going to pay for it.

What other reason can you think of? Good government? Transparency?


Then you say

While the DEC set a date of August 1, for this report, if they accepted an escrow account, instead of replacing failing pumps, they will accept a short extension of the Report, beyond August 1, to address public concerns.
"
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#1517702 --- 07/24/18 09:05 PM Re: Heads Up, Seneca County Sewer District #1 and #2 Customers [Re: Gdog]
scwoodchuck Offline
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Registered: 05/22/14
Posts: 1921
Loc: LOST IN SPACE
Originally Posted By: Gdog
Very deceptive, No real mention of any facts or intentions.
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#1517705 --- 07/24/18 09:34 PM Re: Heads Up, Seneca County Sewer District #1 and #2 Customers [Re: scwoodchuck]
all seeing eye Offline
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Registered: 08/05/07
Posts: 2220
Loc: Seneca Lake
The engineer said that DEC had read the Professional Engineering Report and provided 3-4 pages of comments. So they are aware the County is working on the issue.

It is extremely doubtful that a delay to involve the public, that is going to pay for this, would trigger any sort of enforcement action or penalties.

If you can find any examples of DEC penalizing a municipality that is working in good faith to solve a problem, please share.
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#1517740 --- 07/25/18 09:53 AM Re: Heads Up, Seneca County Sewer District #1 and #2 Customers [Re: all seeing eye]
all seeing eye Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/05/07
Posts: 2220
Loc: Seneca Lake
FingerLakes1 Video of Committee meeting

Finger Lakes 1 video taped the session. The first 40 minutes are the Public Works meeting.

Once again the threat that, if the board doesn't do something, DEC is going to come in and impose a solution was the final motivator.

If DEC came in, it would tell the county to repair and upgrade EACH of the plants. It would NOT require that the plants be consolidated and a sewer line installed to serve Earl Martin.
_________________________
I wonder if clouds ever look down on us and say "Hey look, that one is shaped like an idiot."

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#1517751 --- 07/25/18 01:08 PM Re: Heads Up, Seneca County Sewer District #1 and #2 Customers [Re: all seeing eye]
scwoodchuck Offline
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Registered: 05/22/14
Posts: 1921
Loc: LOST IN SPACE
So why is it that "YOU" are the only one who seems to think the threat of DEC intervention is nothing to be concerned about ?


"If DEC came in, it would tell the county to repair and upgrade EACH of the plants. It would NOT require that the plants be consolidated and a sewer line installed to serve Earl Martin."

Didn't I say this in an earlier post ? You need to pay closer attention to what you read because you mess it up a little bit every time.
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#1517819 --- 07/25/18 05:56 PM Re: Heads Up, Seneca County Sewer District #1 and #2 Customers [Re: scwoodchuck]
all seeing eye Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/05/07
Posts: 2220
Loc: Seneca Lake
Because I have seen them in action and have worked with them for years.

As an example, the ash landfill used for the coal plant in Dresden, has been leaking heavy metals in the groundwater for 10+ years. What did DEC do? Offered them a consent order in 2015 that has still not been implemented. The landfill is still leaking and DEC keeps allowing extensions of the corrective action. Fine 0.

Or the water withdrawal at Greenidge. They are permitted to withdraw 132,000,000/gals per day into the once through cooling system. The law requires screens and variable speed pumps. What has been installed, nothing. Is there a deadline, no. In fact DEC gave them a new permit. Did nothing to deal with the fish blender, which may be where all the fish have gone.

Here's another example, this one an actual discharge of raw sewage into the Keuka Outlet and contaminating private water supplies and regularly exceeding discharge limits.

Penn Yan pays fine for spill

The village agrees to pay $5,000 and to follow compliance steps in a consent order with Department of Environmental Conservation in response to the Aug. 24 sludge spill that entered Keuka Lake Outlet

The village board will pay a $5,000 fine to the Department of Environmental Conservation and take steps to prevent future spills of effluent from the sewage treatment plant. But if Penn Yan does not comply with the order issued after a summer spill of sludge that entered the Keuka Lake Outlet, the village could be on the hook for another $42,580.

On Aug. 24, the village reported a 35,000 gallon spill that resulted in sludge from the sewage treatment plant entering the Keuka Lake Outlet. That spill caused significant concerns from people who draw drinking water from Seneca Lake in the area of the Keuka Outlet near Dresden. Immediately after the spill, village officials advised people to not enter or to let their pets enter the Keuka Lake Outlet. Following the spill, members of the public raised concerns about how downstream neighbors were notified of the potential pollutant in the stream.

In addition to the spill on Aug. 24, according to state officials, between July 1, 2016 and July 31, 2017, the village reported multiple instances of exceeding the limits of specific discharges from the plant. (Facilities that discharge fluids into a body of water in New York State must seek approval through a State Pollutant Discharge Elimination System (SPDES) permit).

The Village Board agreed to the Consent Order at its Nov. 21 meeting. The agreement is subject to the approval of the DEC, through a signature by Regional Director Paul D’Amato.

State officials have suspended most of the total $47,580 penalty, but if the village fails to meet the conditions of the agreement, it could be required to pay a suspended penalty of $42,580. The DEC has also retained the right to levy additional penalties if the village does not fully comply with the order, which includes four specific compliance areas, each with requirements and timelines.

While the order requires communication with the DEC, and Penn Yan village officials have said they plan to communicate with downstream neighbors in the event of a future spill, this order does not require such communication.

State law authorizes civil penalties of up to $37,500 per day each violation continues



Originally Posted By: scwoodchuck
So why is it that "YOU" are the only one who seems to think the threat of DEC intervention is nothing to be concerned about ?


"If DEC came in, it would tell the county to repair and upgrade EACH of the plants. It would NOT require that the plants be consolidated and a sewer line installed to serve Earl Martin."

Didn't I say this in an earlier post ? You need to pay closer attention to what you read because you mess it up a little bit every time.

There is not a single member of the County BOS or staff who have ever dealt with DEC on compliance issues, so they have NO IDEA what they are talking about.

_________________________
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#1517826 --- 07/25/18 07:37 PM Re: Heads Up, Seneca County Sewer District #1 and #2 Customers [Re: scwoodchuck]
all seeing eye Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/05/07
Posts: 2220
Loc: Seneca Lake
Here's a report of another DEC "intervention" that demonstrates how they operate:

DEC orders Waterloo to deal with wastewater

By DAVID L. SHAW dshaw@fltimes.com
Dec 13, 2011

WATERLOO — Village officials have received a draft consent order from the state Department of Environmental Conservation for violating its wastewater discharge permit.

The order had been expected by village officials, who have begun a plan of correction.

Village Attorney Dennis Benjamin said village officials and representatives of MRB Group, the village’s consulting engineers, will meet with DEC Region 8 officials Jan. 4 or 5 to discuss the consent order.

“We will review the items in the consent order and put together a response,” said Mayor Theodore Young. “We are moving forward on our sewer project. The sewer lines have been videotaped to locate leaks or infiltration from the stormwater.”

The village has also notified property owners of the need to separate sump pumps and roof gutters from the sanitary sewer.

Leo J. Bracci, DEC Region 8 attorney, in a Nov. 25 letter to Young, said it’s the DEC’s preference to resolve violations of the State Pollutant Discharge Elimination System permit by an administrative consent order.

He enclosed a draft consent order for the village’s consideration. Bracci said the matter “requires immediate attention” and suggested a meeting to discuss the proposed order and a civil penalty.

The order says that on various occasions between Jan. 1, 2010, and Sept. 30, 2011, the village wastewater treatment plant on East River Road “discharged pollutants to the waters of the state that exceeded the effluent limitations contained in the permit.”

Also, on Sept. 30, 2010, Dec. 1, 2010, and April 27, 2011, the village reported bypass events at the treatment plant to the DEC “but failed to report the volume of the discharge in violation of state law.”

A bypass event is when sewage is discharged into the Cayuga-Seneca Canal with little or no treatment because the amount of water going through the plant is more than it can handle.

The order requires the village to take these steps:

• Upgrade and improve the treatment plant and the collection system according to the terms and conditions of a schedule in a timely fashion.

• File a status report with the DEC on April 2, 2012, and on the second day of each July, October, January and April thereafter until the village achieves consistent compliance with the permit.

• On or before March 31, 2015, the village must complete all steps necessary to correct inflow and infiltration problems existing in the sanitary sewer collection system.

MRB submitted a plan to address the inflow and infiltration problems March 2, 2011.

• On or before April 2, 2012, the village must submit a report to DEC that updates the status of implementation of the plan, including a schedule to complete the work to correct the problems.

• Until the inflow and infiltration problems are corrected, beginning Oct. 2, 2012, and on the second date of each succeeding April and October, the village must submit status reports describing the progress made in correcting the inflow and infiltration problem.

• On or before June 30, 2015, or within 90 days from completion of all work necessary to correct the inflow and infiltration problems, the village must submit a final report that demonstrates the problems have been corrected.

• DEC has listed interim effluent limits for discharges from the plant that will apply from the effective date of the order until the village complies with the terms of the order or until a declaration by the DEC that the village has failed to comply with the order, whichever occurs first.

• If the village fails to meet any of the interim discharge limits, it will be fined $500 for each violation of a daily interim limit.



Originally Posted By: scwoodchuck
So why is it that "YOU" are the only one who seems to think the threat of DEC intervention is nothing to be concerned about ?


"If DEC came in, it would tell the county to repair and upgrade EACH of the plants. It would NOT require that the plants be consolidated and a sewer line installed to serve Earl Martin."

Didn't I say this in an earlier post ? You need to pay closer attention to what you read because you mess it up a little bit every time.



Edited by all seeing eye (07/25/18 08:05 PM)
_________________________
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#1518000 --- 07/28/18 07:22 AM Re: Heads Up, Seneca County Sewer District #1 and #2 Customers [Re: all seeing eye]
scwoodchuck Offline
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Registered: 05/22/14
Posts: 1921
Loc: LOST IN SPACE
crazy you seem to be talking in circles.
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#1518004 --- 07/28/18 08:18 AM Re: Heads Up, Seneca County Sewer District #1 and #2 Customers [Re: scwoodchuck]
all seeing eye Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/05/07
Posts: 2220
Loc: Seneca Lake
Chuck, sorry if you can't follow my examples of DEC working with to get corrective action, that the community can afford. You thought it strange that I was not concerned about DEC. Apparently, those who are concerned don't know how they operate.


Originally Posted By: scwoodchuck
crazy you seem to be talking in circles.
_________________________
I wonder if clouds ever look down on us and say "Hey look, that one is shaped like an idiot."

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#1518066 --- 07/30/18 08:09 AM Re: Heads Up, Seneca County Sewer District #1 and #2 Customers [Re: all seeing eye]
scwoodchuck Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/22/14
Posts: 1921
Loc: LOST IN SPACE
Originally Posted By: all seeing eye
Chuck, sorry if you can't follow my examples of DEC working with to get corrective action, that the community can afford. You thought it strange that I was not concerned about DEC. Apparently, those who are concerned don't know how they operate.


Originally Posted By: scwoodchuck
crazy you seem to be talking in circles.
so let me get this straight. The DEC says you need to fix something and because you know the people can't afford a rate increase you do nothing. Then the DEC steps in and says fix it or else. Now I got it crazy
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#1518068 --- 07/30/18 08:26 AM Re: Heads Up, Seneca County Sewer District #1 and #2 Customers [Re: scwoodchuck]
all seeing eye Offline
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Registered: 08/05/07
Posts: 2220
Loc: Seneca Lake
What I am saying is that DEC would require fixing the plants and adding additional technology to meet lower discharge frequencies, at a cost of about $7 million.

people much not like the fee increase, but it would be easy to explain and justify.

DEC would NOT require a $25,000,000 (plus engineer fees) to consolidate the districts, most of which had absolutely nothing to do with complying with law.

I understand the plants need to be fixed. But there is nothing to require a sewer line to serve Earl Martin"s plans for the Depot.


Originally Posted By: scwoodchuck
Originally Posted By: all seeing eye
Chuck, sorry if you can't follow my examples of DEC working with to get corrective action, that the community can afford. You thought it strange that I was not concerned about DEC. Apparently, those who are concerned don't know how they operate.


Originally Posted By: scwoodchuck
crazy you seem to be talking in circles.
so let me get this straight. The DEC says you need to fix something and because you know the people can't afford a rate increase you do nothing. Then the DEC steps in and says fix it or else. Now I got it crazy
_________________________
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#1518076 --- 07/30/18 11:01 AM Re: Heads Up, Seneca County Sewer District #1 and #2 Customers [Re: all seeing eye]
scwoodchuck Offline
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Registered: 05/22/14
Posts: 1921
Loc: LOST IN SPACE
Originally Posted By: all seeing eye
Here is the explanation from the Report on the need to extend the district to accommodate "Future Development"

2.2.6 Anticipated Development

Future development within the Sewer Districts is anticipated to occur on the former Depot property. Approximately 7,000 acres of the Depot was sold to a local developer in 2017 who is currently developing plans to expand operations onto the Depot property. The proposed manufacturing facility, Seneca Ironworks, will provide manufacturing of agricultural equipment. Following expansion, it is anticipated this facility will employ 300 people and generate approximately
200,000 gallons per month (average of ~6,700 gpd) of pre-treated industrial wastewater. Additionally, the future development will include construction of an estimated 30 homes as well as plans for potential commercial development along the interior County Road 135. The additional development potential is largely dependent upon future access to sanitary sewer conveyances.

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#1518091 --- 07/30/18 01:14 PM Re: Heads Up, Seneca County Sewer District #1 and #2 Customers [Re: scwoodchuck]
all seeing eye Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/05/07
Posts: 2220
Loc: Seneca Lake
Thank you for reposting. It gives me a chance to emphasize:

Economic development would NOT be required by DEC. DEC has jurisdiction over the existing plants and systems.

The Sewer line running from Hillside to Sampson only benefits the "local developer," Earl Martin.

The people in the Hamlets of Romulus and Willard, the Villages of Ovid, Lodi, and Interlaken, and the state facilities at Five Points, Willard and Sampson State Park should not be paying for it.

The "Pre-treated industrial wastewater," much of which will be generated from a planned galvanization process, presents additional problems. This discharge will place additional stress on which ever plant it discharges into. Major pollutants of Galvanization wastewater are cyanide, chromium, acid, alkali and alkali salt, and heavy metals, including copper and zinc.




Originally Posted By: scwoodchuck
Originally Posted By: all seeing eye
Here is the explanation from the Report on the need to extend the district to accommodate "Future Development"

2.2.6 Anticipated Development

Future development within the Sewer Districts is anticipated to occur on the former Depot property. Approximately 7,000 acres of the Depot was sold to a local developer in 2017 who is currently developing plans to expand operations onto the Depot property. The proposed manufacturing facility, Seneca Ironworks, will provide manufacturing of agricultural equipment. Following expansion, it is anticipated this facility will employ 300 people and generate approximately
200,000 gallons per month (average of ~6,700 gpd) of pre-treated industrial wastewater. Additionally, the future development will include construction of an estimated 30 homes as well as plans for potential commercial development along the interior County Road 135. The additional development potential is largely dependent upon future access to sanitary sewer conveyances.

_________________________
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#1518093 --- 07/30/18 01:41 PM Re: Heads Up, Seneca County Sewer District #1 and #2 Customers [Re: all seeing eye]
Hello_Governer Offline
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Registered: 10/03/11
Posts: 1630
Loc: New York, Seneca
So when are you going to explain that the $25 million dollar plan, that you are so opposed to, will not be implemented unless the county is successful in getting a grant to pay for it. That is how grants work you know. You first come up with a project, develop a detailed plan and submit it with your application. Intentional or not, you left that part out, but it is probably intentional.
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#1518098 --- 07/30/18 02:09 PM Re: Heads Up, Seneca County Sewer District #1 and #2 Customers [Re: Hello_Governer]
all seeing eye Offline
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Registered: 08/05/07
Posts: 2220
Loc: Seneca Lake
I did say, on July 24, that the cost estimates are based on receiving a $5,000,000 grant and 0% financing.

I haven't seen or heard anything that says if the county doesn't get the grant, the $25,000,000 plan will not proceed. Which is pretty silly position to take, as the plants will still need to be repaired and no planning or engineering will be done to fix them until the county finds out about the grants in 2020.

Here's the timetable. Please note all the activities the Districts will need to pay the engineering firm from now until 2019 when the grant applications actually get filed:


Project Schedule Milestone

Submit PER to NYSDEC in accordance with NOV conditions August 2018
Submit Final PER to EFC for CWSRF Project Listing, Draft/Final IUP September 2018
Environmental Review (SEQR/SERP) Fall 2018
Map & Plans - 202b Improvements Process Fall/Winter 2018
Agreement Negotiations/Revisions/Execution Winter/Spring 2019
Bond Resolution(s) Spring 2019
Submit CWSRF funding application to NYSEFC Spring 2019
Submit WIIA Grant Application June 2019
Submit 2019 CFA Application (WQIP, ESD) July 2019

Close on Short Term Financing (CWSRF) Fall 2019
Final Design and Permitting Winter/Spring 2019/20
Submit Project Plans & Specifications for Review and Approval Spring 2020
Permits and Approvals Spring/Summer 2020
Project Letting/Bidding Phase Fall 2020
Award Bids Winter 2020
Construction Start Spring 2021

Do you really expect to turn this process around 2 years from now when they find out about the grant.

Frankly, even with the grant, it is unaffordable for most of the residential customers affected:

Originally Posted By: all seeing eye


There was some discussion about the resolution. The total project cost $25,000,000. The engineers have no idea if the State of New York, which owns the Five Point plant and gets sewage treatment for Willard DTC will move forward, but the engineers asked the State to contribute to the project. Not surprisingly they haven't received an answer. The projected costs depend on getting a $5,000,000 grant.

The cost per year for Sewer #1 is estimated at $414/EDU/year (up from $180)

For Sewer #2 the estimate is $637/EDU/year (up from $200)


The project was approved by the BOS, but the engineers say the details can be tweaked.


Originally Posted By: Hello_Governer
So when are you going to explain that the $25 million dollar plan, that you are so opposed to, will not be implemented unless the county is successful in getting a grant to pay for it. That is how grants work you know. You first come up with a project, develop a detailed plan and submit it with your application. Intentional or not, you left that part out, but it is probably intentional.
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#1518100 --- 07/30/18 02:14 PM Re: Heads Up, Seneca County Sewer District #1 and #2 Customers [Re: Hello_Governer]
all seeing eye Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/05/07
Posts: 2220
Loc: Seneca Lake
When is someone going to explain the $25 million dollar plan to the residents who are going to have to pay for it?


Originally Posted By: Hello_Governer
So when are you going to explain that the $25 million dollar plan, that you are so opposed to, will not be implemented unless the county is successful in getting a grant to pay for it. That is how grants work you know. You first come up with a project, develop a detailed plan and submit it with your application. Intentional or not, you left that part out, but it is probably intentional.
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#1518168 --- 07/31/18 05:37 AM Re: Heads Up, Seneca County Sewer District #1 and #2 Customers [Re: all seeing eye]
DR. D Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/25/03
Posts: 6467
Loc: Waterloo/Seneca Falls/Junius/T...
Still asking, Why does this keep happening? What is causing 3 blow offs of sewage into the canal in just over a month.

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#1518184 --- 07/31/18 07:54 AM Re: Heads Up, Seneca County Sewer District #1 and #2 Customers [Re: DR. D]
scwoodchuck Offline
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Registered: 05/22/14
Posts: 1921
Loc: LOST IN SPACE
Do you still have all your teeth ? Will you some day need a hip replacement ? Hair getting grey ? ED ?
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#1518229 --- 07/31/18 06:30 PM Re: Heads Up, Seneca County Sewer District #1 and #2 Customers [Re: scwoodchuck]
DR. D Offline
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Registered: 07/25/03
Posts: 6467
Loc: Waterloo/Seneca Falls/Junius/T...
Originally Posted By: scwoodchuck
Do you still have all your teeth ? Will you some day need a hip replacement ? Hair getting grey ? ED ?


I posted what you replied to in the wrong topic my bad, was meant for the topic dealing with the sewage leak in SF, just pointing that out there. So your post makes about as much sense as mine.

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#1518239 --- 08/01/18 08:10 AM Re: Heads Up, Seneca County Sewer District #1 and #2 Customers [Re: DR. D]
scwoodchuck Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/22/14
Posts: 1921
Loc: LOST IN SPACE
So your mistake is NOW MY MISTAKE ! that may work where you come from so now you have 3 bads. Nobody would have noticed until you pointed it out then you make it my mistake. crazy
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#1518312 --- 08/02/18 08:02 AM Re: Heads Up, Seneca County Sewer District #1 and #2 Customers [Re: all seeing eye]
scwoodchuck Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/22/14
Posts: 1921
Loc: LOST IN SPACE
Originally Posted By: all seeing eye
When is someone going to explain the $25 million dollar plan to the residents who are going to have to pay for it?


Originally Posted By: Hello_Governer
So when are you going to explain that the $25 million dollar plan, that you are so opposed to, will not be implemented unless the county is successful in getting a grant to pay for it. That is how grants work you know. You first come up with a project, develop a detailed plan and submit it with your application. Intentional or not, you left that part out, but it is probably intentional.
No answer ? Well let me explain. First you are way off on your numbers. The cost to repair the 3 sewage plants is estimated at 18.6 million not 7 million. The 25 million plan will never get past the board unless a grant of at least 20 million is received. Sorry to BURST YOUR BUBBLE
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#1518316 --- 08/02/18 10:29 AM Re: Heads Up, Seneca County Sewer District #1 and #2 Customers [Re: scwoodchuck]
all seeing eye Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/05/07
Posts: 2220
Loc: Seneca Lake
It already got pat the board.

The engineers are predicting $5,000,000 in grants, not $20,000,000.

The costs you are quoting are for upgrading the Willard plant to handle all the sewage and converting the other two plants to be pump stations, not treatment facilities.

Where are the statements from the supervisors and/or county manager saying that $20 million in grants will be required to move the project forward?

I'd like to believe you, but don't think you have the power to commit the County.


Originally Posted By: scwoodchuck
Originally Posted By: all seeing eye
When is someone going to explain the $25 million dollar plan to the residents who are going to have to pay for it?


Originally Posted By: Hello_Governer
So when are you going to explain that the $25 million dollar plan, that you are so opposed to, will not be implemented unless the county is successful in getting a grant to pay for it. That is how grants work you know. You first come up with a project, develop a detailed plan and submit it with your application. Intentional or not, you left that part out, but it is probably intentional.
No answer ? Well let me explain. First you are way off on your numbers. The cost to repair the 3 sewage plants is estimated at 18.6 million not 7 million. The 25 million plan will never get past the board unless a grant of at least 20 million is received. Sorry to BURST YOUR BUBBLE
_________________________
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#1518320 --- 08/02/18 11:21 AM Re: Heads Up, Seneca County Sewer District #1 and #2 Customers [Re: all seeing eye]
scwoodchuck Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/22/14
Posts: 1921
Loc: LOST IN SPACE
I can see why the county didn't renew your contract laugh


Edited by scwoodchuck (08/02/18 11:22 AM)
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#1518323 --- 08/02/18 11:29 AM Re: Heads Up, Seneca County Sewer District #1 and #2 Customers [Re: scwoodchuck]
Formermac Offline
Silver Member

Registered: 10/22/12
Posts: 11113
Loc: Above ground
I can't comprehend as to why anyone would embarrass themselves by placing opinion over factual data but here you are. I have a friend that mimics all seeing's information or are you attempting to use opinion to deflect fact? Typically factual rebuttals are more effective than ad hominem , your usual tactic, attacking one's character instead of addressing opinion versus fact.

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#1518379 --- 08/02/18 09:03 PM Re: Heads Up, Seneca County Sewer District #1 and #2 Customers [Re: Formermac]
scwoodchuck Offline
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Registered: 05/22/14
Posts: 1921
Loc: LOST IN SPACE
The facts will be made known in time, actually the facts have already been made known to anyone who was at the last committee meeting. All it took was a phone call to someone who gave me an honest answer. Facts and honesty are not easy to find on the internet or in the newspaper.
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#1518380 --- 08/02/18 09:45 PM Re: Heads Up, Seneca County Sewer District #1 and #2 Customers [Re: Formermac]
all seeing eye Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/05/07
Posts: 2220
Loc: Seneca Lake
Actually, I went back to the complete PER to look at the cost of repairing and upgrading the plants.

What the engineering firm costed out for "renovate existing plant," was a complete replacement of the treatment facility.

So, for example, the "renovation" of the Hillside plant, which serves the approximately 100 residents of Hillside, Hillside staff and a few employees at the Finger Lakes Technology Group, was estimated at:

Demolish and replace existing treatment facility, headworks, screw pump, replace roof, doors, new electrical system, new generator, new heating and ventilation, etc, etc $3,156,000

Plus:

Mobilization/Demobilization/General Conditions $315,600
Inflation $104,164
Engineering/Legal/Administrative Costs $694,430
Contingency $694,430


ESTIMATE OF PROBABLE PROJECT COST TO RENOVATE THE HILLSIDE PLANT $4,965,000

THAT IS $49,650/RESIDENT


The Five Points and Willard repair estimates are similarly outrageous and unnecessary for compliance with DEC.

It appears the costs of bringing the plant into compliance were inflated to PROVE that the consolidated option was the best choice and to bring sewer services to the Depot, without cost to the new owner.

Too bad no one knows what is ACTUALLY required to bring the plants into compliance.

So SCWooodchuck and I were BOTH WRONG about the cost of "renovating" the existing plants.

The Estimates in the PER for the RENNOVATE option are:

Hillside $4,965,000
Five Points $12,334,000
Willard $8,593,000

OR $25,892,000 to renovate the existing plants.












Edited by all seeing eye (08/02/18 09:55 PM)
_________________________
I wonder if clouds ever look down on us and say "Hey look, that one is shaped like an idiot."

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#1518381 --- 08/02/18 10:05 PM Re: Heads Up, Seneca County Sewer District #1 and #2 Customers [Re: scwoodchuck]
all seeing eye Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/05/07
Posts: 2220
Loc: Seneca Lake
I thought the County Manager was on vacation. Perhaps your source will go on the record?

Here is a link to the presentation made at the Committee/Board meeting:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1lFTi5FbWudSsd9bDi4RguVqex2am2HM6/view?usp=sharing

Read it and decide for yourself. PS, I was at the last meeting and it answered none of the questions that the existing customers had. But I am sure Earl Martin and Barton and LoGiudice are happy. One got a free sewer system, increasing his property values and the other found a new multi-year cash cow.

Originally Posted By: scwoodchuck
The facts will be made known in time, actually the facts have already been made known to anyone who was at the last committee meeting. All it took was a phone call to someone who gave me an honest answer. Facts and honesty are not easy to find on the internet or in the newspaper.


Edited by all seeing eye (08/02/18 10:10 PM)
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#1518395 --- 08/03/18 06:58 AM Re: Heads Up, Seneca County Sewer District #1 and #2 Customers [Re: all seeing eye]
scwoodchuck Offline
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Registered: 05/22/14
Posts: 1921
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For someone who knows all about the DEC you don't realize the enineers plans satisfied the deadline that was imposed on the county for corrective action. That doesn't mean that the plan as to be implemented but the DEC is satisfied that the problem is being worked on. There is a process for projects like this and it all starts with the engineers. I also understand the relationship between certain supervisors and MRB. wink
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#1518439 --- 08/03/18 05:12 PM Re: Heads Up, Seneca County Sewer District #1 and #2 Customers [Re: all seeing eye]
John Q Public Offline
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Registered: 07/16/13
Posts: 43
Loc: NY
I think the woodchucks screen name is very fitting. he pretends to lurk down below but he is clearly in the know. Pop your head up chucky and tell us who you really are.


Edited by John Q Public (08/03/18 05:12 PM)

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#1518475 --- 08/04/18 08:00 AM Re: Heads Up, Seneca County Sewer District #1 and #2 Customers [Re: John Q Public]
scwoodchuck Offline
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Registered: 05/22/14
Posts: 1921
Loc: LOST IN SPACE
YOU FIRST
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#1518949 --- 08/13/18 07:55 PM Re: Heads Up, Seneca County Sewer District #1 and #2 Customers [Re: scwoodchuck]
John Q Public Offline
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Registered: 07/16/13
Posts: 43
Loc: NY
You, Kyle and the blue man have all gotten quiet. I get deleted for calling you by name. I guess that says something nevertheless.

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#1518984 --- 08/14/18 08:47 PM Re: Heads Up, Seneca County Sewer District #1 and #2 Customers [Re: all seeing eye]
Gdog Offline
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Registered: 01/04/04
Posts: 328
I know of 2 residents in Kendaia looking for water service. The water dept. employees said, we don't know where the main is. So we aren't sure if we can. This is on the deadend going in the back side of Sampson. What good are they??? customers are your cash register. The county water/sewer dept. is a joke.

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#1518991 --- 08/15/18 02:41 AM Re: Heads Up, Seneca County Sewer District #1 and #2 Customers [Re: Gdog]
The Mechanic Offline
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Registered: 05/24/11
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Loc: NY
https://www.whec.com/news/roofer-ripoff-news10nbc-theft-charges/4710093/

This thief lives in the area you just described.
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#1518997 --- 08/15/18 07:53 AM Re: Heads Up, Seneca County Sewer District #1 and #2 Customers [Re: John Q Public]
scwoodchuck Offline
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Registered: 05/22/14
Posts: 1921
Loc: LOST IN SPACE
Originally Posted By: John Q Public
You, Kyle and the blue man have all gotten quiet. I get deleted for calling you by name. I guess that says something nevertheless.
the county board meets once a month, so without them moving forward everything is speculation. I don't make things up as I go along like some others, I wait for facts.
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#1518998 --- 08/15/18 08:08 AM Re: Heads Up, Seneca County Sewer District #1 and #2 Customers [Re: Gdog]
all seeing eye Offline
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Registered: 08/05/07
Posts: 2220
Loc: Seneca Lake
They should contact Sam Priem the director of public works and talk to him about connecting. He has the maps and can figure out how to do it. It costs $1500 to connect.

Let's see what good he is.

Originally Posted By: Gdog
I know of 2 residents in Kendaia looking for water service. The water dept. employees said, we don't know where the main is. So we aren't sure if we can. This is on the deadend going in the back side of Sampson. What good are they??? customers are your cash register. The county water/sewer dept. is a joke.
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#1519009 --- 08/15/18 02:26 PM Re: Heads Up, Seneca County Sewer District #1 and #2 Customers [Re: all seeing eye]
scwoodchuck Offline
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Registered: 05/22/14
Posts: 1921
Loc: LOST IN SPACE
Originally Posted By: all seeing eye
They should contact Sam Priem the director of public works and talk to him about connecting. He has the maps and can figure out how to do it. It costs $1500 to connect.

Let's see what good he is
. OR just look for fire hydrants crazy
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#1519015 --- 08/15/18 03:20 PM Re: Heads Up, Seneca County Sewer District #1 and #2 Customers [Re: all seeing eye]
Gdog Offline
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Registered: 01/04/04
Posts: 328
The property owners went to R. Gates with no success. One is on the Kendaia Dead end. The other is on East lake way. There is a new poly line installed up that spur road but the current employees don't have a clue. They are drawing a paycheck and providing nothing.


Edited by Gdog (08/15/18 03:21 PM)

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#1519020 --- 08/15/18 05:52 PM Re: Heads Up, Seneca County Sewer District #1 and #2 Customers [Re: Gdog]
all seeing eye Offline
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Registered: 08/05/07
Posts: 2220
Loc: Seneca Lake
Roy Gates has had nothing to do with water and sewer since Priem was hired and named administrator in January.

His phone is 315-539-1634.

Spriem@co.Seneca.NY.us.

Good luck.


Originally Posted By: Gdog
The property owners went to R. Gates with no success. One is on the Kendaia Dead end. The other is on East lake way. There is a new poly line installed up that spur road but the current employees don't have a clue. They are drawing a paycheck and providing nothing.
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#1519021 --- 08/15/18 06:55 PM Re: Heads Up, Seneca County Sewer District #1 and #2 Customers [Re: all seeing eye]
John Q Public Offline
Member

Registered: 07/16/13
Posts: 43
Loc: NY
Priem has a terrible record as a municipal employee. I heard he was the only applicant for the job. Not sure what Sheppard and the Board were thinking when they hired him. Maybe the woodchuck or blue man can weigh in on this.

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#1519022 --- 08/15/18 07:42 PM Re: Heads Up, Seneca County Sewer District #1 and #2 Customers [Re: John Q Public]
all seeing eye Offline
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Registered: 08/05/07
Posts: 2220
Loc: Seneca Lake
I heard there were NO applicants and that the CM personally recruited Priem, whom he knew from the Air Force.

For sure, he has no sewer and water experience.

But he has the job, he should get the comments.
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#1519031 --- 08/16/18 11:24 AM Re: Heads Up, Seneca County Sewer District #1 and #2 Customers [Re: all seeing eye]
Gdog Offline
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Registered: 01/04/04
Posts: 328
For that kind of salary, why didn't they get an engineer on staff

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#1519045 --- 08/16/18 03:21 PM Re: Heads Up, Seneca County Sewer District #1 and #2 Customers [Re: Gdog]
all seeing eye Offline
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Registered: 08/05/07
Posts: 2220
Loc: Seneca Lake
He IS a professional engineer, just no sewer experience.
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#1519050 --- 08/16/18 04:41 PM Re: Heads Up, Seneca County Sewer District #1 and #2 Customers [Re: all seeing eye]
Gdog Offline
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Registered: 01/04/04
Posts: 328
I mean a structural and water/sewer engineer

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#1519051 --- 08/16/18 04:51 PM Re: Heads Up, Seneca County Sewer District #1 and #2 Customers [Re: Gdog]
all seeing eye Offline
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Registered: 08/05/07
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Loc: Seneca Lake
Agreed!!
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#1519113 --- 08/18/18 06:20 AM Re: Heads Up, Seneca County Sewer District #1 and #2 Customers [Re: all seeing eye]
scwoodchuck Offline
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Where are you getting your information ? My understanding is that he has the necessary state licences required for the position.
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#1519114 --- 08/18/18 06:25 AM Re: Heads Up, Seneca County Sewer District #1 and #2 Customers [Re: Gdog]
scwoodchuck Offline
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Registered: 05/22/14
Posts: 1921
Loc: LOST IN SPACE
Originally Posted By: Gdog
The property owners went to R. Gates with no success. One is on the Kendaia Dead end. The other is on East lake way. There is a new poly line installed up that spur road but the current employees don't have a clue. They are drawing a paycheck and providing nothing.
there has to be a fire hydrant on the end of those lines. Just tell the property owner what a fire hydrant is.
https://goo.gl/images/4vk3Vh


Edited by scwoodchuck (08/18/18 06:30 AM)
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#1519116 --- 08/18/18 07:15 AM Re: Heads Up, Seneca County Sewer District #1 and #2 Customers [Re: scwoodchuck]
all seeing eye Offline
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Registered: 08/05/07
Posts: 2220
Loc: Seneca Lake
That is silly. No one is saying he doesn't have a license, we are saying he has NO experience with sewer and water. He can't train the employees as he knows less than they do.

He's getting a lot of money. He should be figuring out how to connect the customers to the water. They shouldn't be out looking for hydrants.



Originally Posted By: scwoodchuck
Where are you getting your information ? My understanding is that he has the necessary state licences required for the position.
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#1519118 --- 08/18/18 09:42 AM Re: Heads Up, Seneca County Sewer District #1 and #2 Customers [Re: all seeing eye]
scwoodchuck Offline
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Registered: 05/22/14
Posts: 1921
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You're still making stuff up as you go along. Why would he be required to train anyone ? Doesn't the county have an engineer ? Doesn't the Village of Waterloo maintain the water lines now ? Don't the towns work together on water and sewer ? You sure don't know how things work !! Does your mommy still help you dress ?
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#1519119 --- 08/18/18 10:20 AM Re: Heads Up, Seneca County Sewer District #1 and #2 Customers [Re: scwoodchuck]
Gdog Offline
Member

Registered: 01/04/04
Posts: 328
Well, This is fact! the cost of a new service is $1500. Why would you have to locate anything. You are paying for a tap from the water main to your property. Get real. Look for a hydrant. Go to the new Rt. 89 water district in Varick. They have very few hydrants along that new water system.

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#1519128 --- 08/18/18 02:23 PM Re: Heads Up, Seneca County Sewer District #1 and #2 Customers [Re: Gdog]
scwoodchuck Offline
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Registered: 05/22/14
Posts: 1921
Loc: LOST IN SPACE
Aren't we brilliant, hydrants have to be a certain distance apart if you find 2 there is most likely a pipe in between.

Fire hydrants shall be provided for detached one- and two-family dwellings in accordance with both of the following: (1) The maximum distance to a fire hydrant from the closest point on the building shall not exceed 600 ft (122183 m). (2) The maximum distance between fire hydrants shall not exceed 800 ft (244 m).
NFPA 1 Fire Code


Edited by scwoodchuck (08/18/18 02:27 PM)
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#1519132 --- 08/18/18 02:58 PM Re: Heads Up, Seneca County Sewer District #1 and #2 Customers [Re: scwoodchuck]
scwoodchuck Offline
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Registered: 05/22/14
Posts: 1921
Loc: LOST IN SPACE
Originally Posted By: scwoodchuck
Aren't we brilliant, hydrants have to be a certain distance apart if you find 2 there is most likely a pipe in between.

Fire hydrants shall be provided for detached one- and two-family dwellings in accordance with both of the following: (1) The maximum distance to a fire hydrant from the closest point on the building shall not exceed 600 ft (122183 m). (2) The maximum distance between fire hydrants shall not exceed 800 ft (244 m).
NFPA 1 Fire Code
BUT, it is Varick
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#1519139 --- 08/18/18 04:39 PM Re: Heads Up, Seneca County Sewer District #1 and #2 Customers [Re: scwoodchuck]
all seeing eye Offline
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Registered: 08/05/07
Posts: 2220
Loc: Seneca Lake
The water lines that go through Kendaia were installed by the Army to supply water to the Depot from the lake pump station.

Why would you think the ARMY would install hydrants, especially to serve buildings on non Army property? Or follow a VOLUNTARY Fire Code?

I think you will find that in most rural districts, hydrants are few and far between and I doubt there are hydrants in Kendaia.

Originally Posted By: scwoodchuck
Aren't we brilliant, hydrants have to be a certain distance apart if you find 2 there is most likely a pipe in between.

Fire hydrants shall be provided for detached one- and two-family dwellings in accordance with both of the following: (1) The maximum distance to a fire hydrant from the closest point on the building shall not exceed 600 ft (122183 m). (2) The maximum distance between fire hydrants shall not exceed 800 ft (244 m).
NFPA 1 Fire Code
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#1519141 --- 08/18/18 04:59 PM Re: Heads Up, Seneca County Sewer District #1 and #2 Customers [Re: all seeing eye]
Gdog Offline
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Registered: 01/04/04
Posts: 328
there are hydrants in a few spots on the transmission line for flushing purposes. But there are also 3 abandon water transmission line in the same area. There are still hydrants that are abandon and out of service the government never removed. I know the facts.

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#1519142 --- 08/18/18 05:47 PM Re: Heads Up, Seneca County Sewer District #1 and #2 Customers [Re: Gdog]
all seeing eye Offline
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Registered: 08/05/07
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Loc: Seneca Lake
much better explanation than mine.
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#1519143 --- 08/18/18 06:03 PM Re: Heads Up, Seneca County Sewer District #1 and #2 Customers [Re: all seeing eye]
scwoodchuck Offline
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Registered: 05/22/14
Posts: 1921
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Well we all know the Army is fire proof, with all the tons of fuel and explosives laying around and trucks and trains going in and out they couldn't experience a brush fire. I suppose the Army would never feel it was necessary to be prepared.
Voluntary ? Oh OK.
https://www.dos.ny.gov/dcea/

I would think abandoned hydrants would have to be marked as such.
But it is Varick


Edited by scwoodchuck (08/18/18 06:08 PM)
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#1519149 --- 08/19/18 01:04 AM Re: Heads Up, Seneca County Sewer District #1 and #2 Customers [Re: all seeing eye]
Gdog Offline
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Registered: 01/04/04
Posts: 328
Lets look at the nuts and bolts of this department. When the County Engineer ran the water and sewer, He had to take and pass a civil service exam to hold that position. Which he did do. The County water/sewer maintenance supervisor also was required to take and pass a civil service exam to hold that position. WHY do the current employees in this department not required to take and pass these exams??? The answer is easy, THEY CAN PASS THEM!!!This is the crooked politics in Seneca County Government!!

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#1519150 --- 08/19/18 07:43 AM Re: Heads Up, Seneca County Sewer District #1 and #2 Customers [Re: Gdog]
scwoodchuck Offline
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Registered: 05/22/14
Posts: 1921
Loc: LOST IN SPACE
Originally Posted By: Gdog
Lets look at the nuts and bolts of this department. When the County Engineer ran the water and sewer, He had to take and pass a civil service exam to hold that position. Which he did do. The County water/sewer maintenance supervisor also was required to take and pass a civil service exam to hold that position. WHY do the current employees in this department not required to take and pass these exams??? The answer is easy, THEY CAN PASS THEM!!!This is the crooked politics in Seneca County Government!!
What ? I think you need to stop posting at 1am.
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