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#1514993 --- 05/25/18 08:01 AM Re: Multiple Salt Mine Leaks [Re: scwoodchuck]
all seeing eye Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/05/07
Posts: 2238
Loc: Seneca Lake
Read the letter please.

The pressure problems that indicated leaks between the active salt solution caverns and the caverns proposed for LPG were found by US SALT. Not Crestwood.

Crestwood sold the US SALT salt mines in 2017 to Kissner for $225,000,000.

US SALT was solution salt mining when they discovered the problem.

Guess they didn't want their investment to explode.


Originally Posted By: scwoodchuck
Originally Posted By: all seeing eye
Nope, wrong again.

DEC Laws, regs and policy allow operators to keep "evaluation of factual data, such as reservoir study or analysis records, reports or studies of a formation or geologic phenomenon, or some other significant topic " confidential as a "trade secret."


Well Data Confidentiality

Basis for Holding Drilling Data Confidential


Certain data filed with the Division of Mineral Resources are held confidential according to Section 23-0313 of the Oil, Gas and Solution Mining Law and Section 87-2 of the New York State Public Officers Law.

Public Disclosure Standards for Drilling Data Never exempted from public disclosure:

permit applications
information on the total depth of wells
well plugging records

Automatically held confidential for six months:
well logs and samples
well drilling and completion reports
directional surveys
annual well (oil and gas production) reports (confidentiality ends July 1 following the calendar year to which the reports apply)

Held confidential for six months with possible extension to two years:
well logs and samples
well drilling and completion reports
directional surveys

ECL Section 23-0313 and Technical Guidance Memorandum 90-3 describe the procedures for requesting a two year extension.

May be defined as trade secrets eligible for continuous confidential status:

detailed analysis, opinion, interpretation or evaluation of factual data, such as reservoir study or analysis records, reports or studies of a formation or geologic phenomenon, or some other significant topic

Technical Guidance Memorandum 90-3 describes the guidelines for requesting "trade secret" status.

Never publicly disclosed without operator's consent:

brine production reported by individual solution mining operators

Well data confidentiality
OH BOY are you confused. Crestwood AIN'T MINING or drilling new wells and aren't producing anything.
Did you even READ it
Certain data filed with the Division of Mineral Resources are held confidential according to Section 23-0313 of the Oil, Gas and Solution Mining Law and Section 87-2 of the New York State Public Officers Law.
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#1514996 --- 05/25/18 12:45 PM Re: Multiple Salt Mine Leaks [Re: all seeing eye]
scwoodchuck Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/22/14
Posts: 1955
Loc: LOST IN SPACE
I did read the letter, nowhere did it say a leak or multiple leaks were confirmed. Unless " MAY and POSSIBLE " now have a new meaning. Also, a possible leak between wells not included in the storage plan does not necessarily mean all the wells leak or will eventually leak. Besides even if gas did leak into a solution well doesn't mean the gas will leak out into the atmosphere.


Edited by scwoodchuck (05/25/18 12:48 PM)
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#1516012 --- 06/23/18 11:50 AM Re: Multiple Salt Mine Leaks [Re: Timbo]
Timbo Offline
Silver Member

Registered: 07/18/12
Posts: 14295
Loc: CNY

A new study published in the journal Science finds that methane emissions from U.S. oil and gas operations are 60 percent higher than previous estimates from the federal government.

https://www.npr.org/2018/06/23/622727843...ean-natural-gas
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#1516220 --- 07/01/18 10:26 AM Re: Multiple Salt Mine Leaks [Re: Timbo]
scwoodchuck Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/22/14
Posts: 1955
Loc: LOST IN SPACE
There are two ways of looking at this issue. Could the methane be natural occurring and would more be leaking naturally if we weren't removing some of it.

People also search
methane
hydrate ice


Hundreds of deep-sea vents found spewing methane off US coast | New ...

New Scientist › article › 2109698-hundre...
Oct 19, 2016 - Recent surveys off the US coast have discovered vents spewing a ... coast off Washington, Oregon and California is a giant methane ..

Natural Methane Seepage Is Widespread on the U.S. Atlantic Ocean Margin - Sound Waves - USGS.gov

https://soundwaves.usgs.gov › 2014/10
Natural methane leakage from the seafloor is far more widespread on the U.S. ... coast, nor associated with a petroleum basin like the northern Gulf of Mexico,” said ...

Hundreds of Methane Vents Discovered Off Coast of Pacific Northwest — ...
PBS › wgbh › nova › next › earth › hun...
Dec 5, 2016 - Deep beneath the ocean, off the coast of Washington, Oregon, and northern California, scientists have discovered roughly 500 bubbling vents ...
&#128558;


Edited by scwoodchuck (07/01/18 10:34 AM)
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#1516257 --- 07/02/18 10:41 PM Re: Multiple Salt Mine Leaks [Re: scwoodchuck]
all seeing eye Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/05/07
Posts: 2238
Loc: Seneca Lake
Good grief. You will look for any explanation to excuse damaging the planet.

How does methane leaking from fracking and pipelines relate to methane leaking from fissures under the seas.
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#1516275 --- 07/03/18 08:19 AM Re: Multiple Salt Mine Leaks [Re: all seeing eye]
scwoodchuck Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/22/14
Posts: 1955
Loc: LOST IN SPACE
The only way to prevent humans from damaging the planet is to remove humans. If humans did not utilize the natural resources of the planet the planet would remove humans all by itself. We do damage to the planet by growing food, building houses, keeping warm and dry. Your very existence is damaging the planet.
If methane in the atmosphere concerns you and it is naturally leaking from the ground how do you intend to prevent it. Wouldn't it make sense to utilize it? If you think that the miniscule amount of methane leaking from pipes is a major concern what about the methane that is generated by 7 billion people and billions of farm animals farting ?
Your problem is you don't understand the natural carbon cycle and the cycle of life.


Edited by scwoodchuck (07/03/18 08:21 AM)
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#1516409 --- 07/05/18 05:21 PM Re: Multiple Salt Mine Leaks [Re: all seeing eye]
all seeing eye Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/05/07
Posts: 2238
Loc: Seneca Lake
Schuyler County Legislature considers rescinding Crestwood LPG storage facility support

Watkins Glen—The Schuyler County Legislature appears close to voting to rescind its prior support for an attempt to store liquefied propane gas in local salt mines, after reports that one of the caverns may have leaks.

The full legislature will consider on Monday (July 9), a resolution rescinding support of Finger Lakes LPG Storage’s liquid propane gas (LPG) storage facility project. Finger Lakes LPG Storage is a subsidiary of Crestwood Midstream Partners.

The resolution has already cleared the county’s Public Safety Committee, headed by legislator Van Harp, and its Legislative Resolution Review Committee, chaired by Dennis Fagan.

The resolution, as authored by Fagan, with assistance from the County Planning Department (Kristin VanHorn), County Attorney (Steven Getman), County Administrator (Tim O’Hearn), Emergency Management (Bill Kennedy) and Clerk of the Legislature (Stacy Husted), repeals the county’s support pending completion of future pressure testing and subsequent review and approval by New York State Department of Environmental Conservation (DEC).

The proposed resolution comes after a May 17 letter to the DEC from lawyers representing Finger Lakes LPG Storage. In that letter, Kevin Bernstein, an attorney with Bond Schoeneck & King, asked the DEC to delay a final decision on the storage unit application until well pressure tests determine the site’s suitability as a gas storage unit.

In 2014, the County Legislature voted five to three in support of the LPG storage plant, based on “submissions and compliance with all regulatory requests” that “minimized impacts to the maximum extent practicable and that the caverns to be used for LPG storage are well-suited for such use.” In 2016, after Crestwood scaled back its plans, the legislature reiterated that support, six votes to two.

In June, Toxics Targeting, a company that compiles information on toxic sites, released documents it claimed prove the DEC knew of, and failed to disclose, leakage concerns.

The July 9 meeting of the Schuyler County legislature is scheduled to begin at 6:30 pm at the Schuyler County Courthouse, 105 Ninth Street, Watkins Glen, New York.

A complete copy of the draft resolution can be found here: https://tinyurl.com/SCHUYLER-CRESTWOOD-RECISSION
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#1516418 --- 07/05/18 08:23 PM Re: Multiple Salt Mine Leaks [Re: all seeing eye]
scwoodchuck Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/22/14
Posts: 1955
Loc: LOST IN SPACE
What's this mean ?
pending completion of future pressure testing and subsequent review and approval by New York State Department of Environmental Conservation (DEC)
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#1516419 --- 07/05/18 08:59 PM Re: Multiple Salt Mine Leaks [Re: scwoodchuck]
Formermac Offline
Silver Member

Registered: 10/22/12
Posts: 11398
Loc: Above ground
At what pressure do they plan on storing the gas?

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#1516423 --- 07/05/18 10:25 PM Re: Multiple Salt Mine Leaks [Re: Formermac]
all seeing eye Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/05/07
Posts: 2238
Loc: Seneca Lake
No idea, but if there is a leak what is the difference about the pressure? Leak is a leak.

Here is the link to the documents:

FL LPG application etc
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#1516426 --- 07/06/18 04:22 AM Re: Multiple Salt Mine Leaks [Re: all seeing eye]
Formermac Offline
Silver Member

Registered: 10/22/12
Posts: 11398
Loc: Above ground
Your response is more like an attitude problem, I worked at Avoca Storage facility for 1 year, so my question was more of interest than a debate. In regard to a leak? 50 PSI adverse to 2000 PSI is the difference between a mild contaminant and a major disaster, dependending on injections or withdrawals, natural formations or a lined storage. I'll get my answer from someone more in line with enlightenment...Thank You

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#1516431 --- 07/06/18 07:46 AM Re: Multiple Salt Mine Leaks [Re: Formermac]
all seeing eye Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/05/07
Posts: 2238
Loc: Seneca Lake
I apologize. I should have said that I don't know, as I am not a geologist. The answer may be in the application documents that are at the link I posted. Or that could be in pool the confidential documents, that were not made public, but were available to the opponents experts. There is a report from Toxics Target in that highlights where Crestwood provided pressure information in the application.

I would say that the disclosure of the pressure problem came AFTER Crestwood sold the salt mines for $225 million.it was the new owner that raised the pressure problem. That seems serious.


Originally Posted By: Formermac
Your response is more like an attitude problem, I worked at Avoca Storage facility for 1 year, so my question was more of interest than a debate. In regard to a leak? 50 PSI adverse to 2000 PSI is the difference between a mild contaminant and a major disaster, dependending on injections or withdrawals, natural formations or a lined storage. I'll get my answer from someone more in line with enlightenment...Thank You
_________________________
Only fools are positive.
Moe Howard

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#1516432 --- 07/06/18 08:03 AM Re: Multiple Salt Mine Leaks [Re: all seeing eye]
Formermac Offline
Silver Member

Registered: 10/22/12
Posts: 11398
Loc: Above ground
I looked up a few of the links but as is the norm, these storage companies tell you only what you want to hear. I recall one incident from an abandon salt mine in Avoca where they horizontally drilled at 10000 ft only to hit a pocket of salt which was now salt brine. This new finding created another catastrophic event, adding salty brine to the Cohocton river along with natural gas (YES, they didn't realize that they were hydrofracturing and releasing gas into the river as well. Bottom line, in our endeavor to create a few jobs, these charlatans hire professional liars who are proficient at telling you that we are environmentally safe and there are no residuals to worry about. In the long haul, we pay a heavy price health wise just for a few dollars in return.

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#1516433 --- 07/06/18 08:14 AM Re: Multiple Salt Mine Leaks [Re: all seeing eye]
Formermac Offline
Silver Member

Registered: 10/22/12
Posts: 11398
Loc: Above ground
I retired from LaChase who was contracted to build compressor stations to transport this gas but a short lived project turned into a long term nightmare. From my understanding, Seneca Lake has contaminants which are being concealed even by your local pumping station officials in Geneva. Ask for a genuine water sample analogy and watch the falsehoods that quickly formulate.

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#1516473 --- 07/07/18 07:20 AM Re: Multiple Salt Mine Leaks [Re: Formermac]
scwoodchuck Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/22/14
Posts: 1955
Loc: LOST IN SPACE
First of all natural gas does not contaminated water because they do not mix together the natural gas just floats to the top and dissipates. Second, there are hundreds of contaminates that our water is not tested for.
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#1516474 --- 07/07/18 07:58 AM Re: Multiple Salt Mine Leaks [Re: scwoodchuck]
Formermac Offline
Silver Member

Registered: 10/22/12
Posts: 11398
Loc: Above ground
Never said that it did Sir. When drilling, what is used at an lubricant? Your problem seems to be someone with little knowledge in regard to the subject but a few Google and now you're ready for a debate. Too many years of experience and education. I've more than likely forgotten more on the topic than you've garnered. Simply put, my question was in regard to pressure, the rest I know much about. laugh

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#1516475 --- 07/07/18 08:06 AM Re: Multiple Salt Mine Leaks [Re: scwoodchuck]
Formermac Offline
Silver Member

Registered: 10/22/12
Posts: 11398
Loc: Above ground
Originally Posted By: scwoodchuck
First of all natural gas does not contaminated water because they do not mix together the natural gas just floats to the top and dissipates. Second, there are hundreds of contaminates that our water is not tested for.


Now with that said, lets start a debate and watch me school you on a few things in regard to natural gas, LPG, salt mines, abandon coal mines ,drilling, electrical pumps, compressor engine, turbines.....lets begin when you're ready,hundred to one, I can embarrass you in a matter of minutes but in reality, I've done that already based on your defensive responses. If and when you proceed, let me introduce myself, an electrical engineer who worked in all the above criteria and environments.

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#1516493 --- 07/08/18 07:54 AM Re: Multiple Salt Mine Leaks [Re: Formermac]
scwoodchuck Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/22/14
Posts: 1955
Loc: LOST IN SPACE
Well go ahead then because I will just call the geologist at the DEC who inspects gas drilling operations.
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#1516494 --- 07/08/18 08:10 AM Re: Multiple Salt Mine Leaks [Re: scwoodchuck]
Formermac Offline
Silver Member

Registered: 10/22/12
Posts: 11398
Loc: Above ground
LOL, well it appears that you're just like our POTUS, thin skinned and unknowledgeable, worked yourself into a corner did you? now you squirm to save face. Get over yourself sir. cry

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#1516495 --- 07/08/18 08:15 AM Re: Multiple Salt Mine Leaks [Re: scwoodchuck]
Formermac Offline
Silver Member

Registered: 10/22/12
Posts: 11398
Loc: Above ground
Originally Posted By: scwoodchuck
Well go ahead then because I will just call the geologist at the DEC who inspects gas drilling operations.


Intelligent people would have taken your suggestion in the first place adverse to "posing" as an expert yourself. Let me take a moment to check something.......... YEP!!!!!! all my credentials and profile are left intact in spite of of you. laugh Now be a good boy and bother someone else, I'm more interested in a real topic.

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