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#1542594 --- 02/24/20 05:47 AM Re: Cayugas demolish properties [Re: all seeing eye]
bluezone Offline
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Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 33510
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: all seeing eye
I swore I wasn't going to get into this crazzy discussion, but when you are wrong, readers need to be told. There are several Federal Indian Reservations in NY. None of them Cayuga.



Are you saying that the cayuga 'tribe' does NOT have a federal 'reservation' in New York State?
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#1542609 --- 02/24/20 07:59 AM Re: Cayugas demolish properties [Re: bluezone]
scwoodchuck Offline
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Registered: 05/22/14
Posts: 2365
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So you are saying that the Cayuga's owned this part of the state and the federal government declared the sale invalid that they don't own it anymore ? SO WHO DOES ? (legally and morally)
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#1542637 --- 02/24/20 10:51 AM Re: Cayugas demolish properties [Re: newsman38]
Pravda1984 Offline
Member

Registered: 08/31/17
Posts: 20
Loc: Fingerlakes
The Cayuga Indian Nation does not currently have a "reservation" as most people would think a reservation means.

They have a claim to "ancestral reservation lands". That is not a current issue.

The Cayuga Indian Nation has an application filed at the Bureau of Indian Affairs (U.S. Government) to have certain properties that the Cayuga Indian Nation purchased on the open market to be placed in to the Federal Trust, which would essential provide those lands the status of a reservation.

The issues of taxing sales (gasoline/tobacco products, etc) is a related issue to the property tax issues. The current status of the law is that local governments can tax both sales and property, but they cannot force payments as they could against non-native americans. (No seizure or tax sales)

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#1542671 --- 02/24/20 01:49 PM Re: Cayugas demolish properties [Re: Pravda1984]
Ben444 Online   content
Silver Member

Registered: 09/12/18
Posts: 14001
Loc: Seneca County
Originally Posted By: Pravda1984
The Cayuga Indian Nation does not currently have a "reservation" as most people would think a reservation means.

They have a claim to "ancestral reservation lands". That is not a current issue.

The Cayuga Indian Nation has an application filed at the Bureau of Indian Affairs (U.S. Government) to have certain properties that the Cayuga Indian Nation purchased on the open market to be placed in to the Federal Trust, which would essential provide those lands the status of a reservation.

The issues of taxing sales (gasoline/tobacco products, etc) is a related issue to the property tax issues. The current status of the law is that local governments can tax both sales and property, but they cannot force payments as they could against non-native americans. (No seizure or tax sales)
In other words a legal and pathetic mess.
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#1542676 --- 02/24/20 02:19 PM Re: Cayugas demolish properties [Re: all seeing eye]
SilverFox Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/19/00
Posts: 6500
Loc: Waterloo
all seeing eye Here is a letter from 1969 Dept. of the Interior stating that there were never any Federal Reservations anywhere in NYS. Would you still like to say "so these comments are more uninformed BS."


There is a series of letters at this website
http://thorpe.ou.edu/sol_opinions/p1976-2000.htm
from the Dept. of the Interior. Of particular
interest is the last paragraph of the rather lengthy
letter dated February 3, 1969 that clearly states
that "None of the ten reservations presently located
within the State, including St. Regis, was created
by federal treaty, statute or executive order.
"


------------------------------------------------

1986 DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR FEBRUARY 3, 1969

III

With regard to the immediate problem at hand, that
of the protest lodged by the Mohawk Indians of the
St. Regis Reservation, we cannot furnish any
detailed information. The United States has had
minimal contact with the Indians of New York since
it granted both civil and criminal jurisdiction over
Indians on Indian reservations in the State of New
York to the State. The Act of July 2, 1948 (62 Stat.
1224; 25 U.S.C. 232) (criminal jurisdiction); the
Act of September 13, 1950 (64 stat. 845; 25 U.S.C.
233) (civil jurisdiction). None of the ten
reservations presently located within the State,
including St. Regis, was created by federal treaty,
statute or executive order. The State of New York
furnishes virtually all governmental services to New
York Indians.


We stand ready to assist in this matter in any way
possible, and would be pleased to participate in a
meeting with other concerned agencies.

RICHMOND F. ALLAN,
Acting Solicitor.
_________________________



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#1542678 --- 02/24/20 02:35 PM Re: Cayugas demolish properties [Re: SilverFox]
SilverFox Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/19/00
Posts: 6500
Loc: Waterloo
This is the last time I will post The Treaty of Canandaigua. Please note Articles 2 & 5

This is the entire text of the famous Treaty of Canandaigua. No where does this document uphold the tribes claim of Federal Reservations. Even though the Cayugas have lied to the BIA in their trust application.



Article 2 recognizes the existence of the state reservations but, in my opinion and the court's opinions, doesn't change the reservation status to Federal Reservations.



Article 5 is the basis for the NYS Thruway crossing Indian Land near Buffalo. The Tribes are the ones violating the treaty when they burned tires on the Thruway and recently have threaten to charge tolls for cars traveling across their land on the Thruway.





Treaty

between the United States of America

and the Tribes of Indians Called the Six Nations

The President of the United States having determined to hold a conference with the Six Nations of Indians for the purpose of removing from their minds all causes of complaint, and establishing a firm and permanent friendship with them; and Timothy Pickering being appointed sole agent for that purpose; and the agent having met and conferred with the sachems, chiefs, and warriors, of the Six Nations, in a general council: Now, in order to accomplish the good design of this conference, the parties have agreed on the following articles, which, when ratified by the President, with the advice and consent of the Senate of the United States, shall be binding on them and the Six Nations:

Article 1. Peace and friendship are hereby firmly established, and shall be perpetual, between the United States and the Six Nations.

Article 2. The United States acknowledge the lands reserved to the Oneida, Onondaga, and Cayuga nations, in their respective treaties with the State of New York, and called their reservations, to be their property; and the United States will never claim the same, nor disturb them, or either of the Six Nations, nor their Indian friends, residing thereon, and united with them in the free use and enjoyment thereof; but the said reservations shall remain theirs, until they choose to sell the same to the people of the United States, who have the right to purchase.

Article 3. The land of the Seneca nation is bounded as follows: beginning on Lake Ontario, at the northwest corner of the land they sold to Oliver Phelps; the line runs westerly along the lake, as far as Oyongwongyeh creek, at Johnston's Landing Place, about four miles eastward, from the fort of Niagara; then, southerly, up that creek to its main fork; then straight to the main fork of Stedman's creek, which empties into the river Niagara, above fort Schlosser; and then onward, from that fork, continuing the same straight course, to that river; (this line, from the mouth of Oyongwongyeh creek, to the river Niagara, above Fort Schlosser, being the eastern boundary of a strip of land, extending from the same line to Niagara river, which the Seneca nation ceded to the King of Great Britain, at a treaty held about thirty years ago, with Sir William Johnston;) then the line runs along the Niagara river to Lake Erie; then along Lake Erie, to the northwest corner of a triangular piece of land, which the United States conveyed to the State of Pennsylvania, as by the President's patent, dated the third day of March, 1792; then due south to the northern boundary of that State; then due east to the southwest corner of the land sold by the Seneca nation to Oliver Phelps; and then north and northerly, along Phelp's line, to the place of beginning, on Lake Ontario. Now, the United States acknowledges all the land within the aforementioned boundaries, to be the property of the Seneca nation; and the United States will never claim, the same, nor disturb the Seneca nation, nor any of the Six Nations, or of their Indian friends residing thereon, and united with them, in the free use and enjoyment thereof; but it shall remain theirs, until they choose to sell the same to the people of the United States, who have the right to purchase.

Article 4. The United States having thus described and acknowledged that lands belong to the Oneidas, Onondagas, Cayugas, and Senecas, and engaged never to claim the same, nor to disturb them, or any of the Six Nations, or their Indian friends residing thereon, and united with them, in the free use and enjoyment thereof; now, the Six Nations, and each of them, hereby engage that they will never claim any other lands within the boundaries of the United States, nor ever disturb the people of the United States in the free use and enjoyment thereof.

Article 5. The Seneca nation, all others of the Six Nations concurring cede to the United States the right of making a wagon road from fort Schlosser to Lake Erie, as far south as Buffalo creek; and the people of the United States shall have the free and undisturbed use of the road, for the purposes of traveling and transportation. And the Six Nations, and each of them, will forever allow to the people of the United States, a free passage through their lands, and the free use of the harbors and rivers adjoining and within their respective tracts of land, for the passing and securing of vessels and boats, and liberty to land their cargoes, where necessary for their safety.

Article 6. In consideration of the peace and friendship hereby established, and of the engagements entered into by the Six Nations; and because the United States desire, with humanity and kindness, to contribute to their confortable support; and to render the peace and friendship hereby established strong and perpetual, the United States now deliver to the Six Nations, and the Indians of the other nations residing among, and united with them, a quantity of goods, of the value of ten thousand dollars. And for the same considerations, and with a view to promote the future welfare of the Six Nations, and of their Indian friends aforesaid, the United States will add the sum of three thousand dollars to the one thousand five hundred dollars heretofore allowed them by an article ratified by the President, on the twenty-third day of April, 1792, making the whole four thousand five hundred dollars; which shall be expended yearly, forever, in purchasing clothing, domestic animals, implements of husbandry, and other utensils, suited to their circumstances, and in compensating useful artificers, who shall reside with or near them, and be employed for their benefit. The immediate application of the whole annual allowance now stipulated, to be made by the superintendent, appointed by the President, for the affairs of the Six Nations, and their Indian friends aforesaid.

Article 7. Lest the firm peace and friendship now established should be interrupted by the misconduct of individuals, the United States and Six Nations agree, that, for injuries done by individuals, on either side, no private revenge or retaliation shall take place; but, instead thereof, complaint shall be made by the party injured, to the other; by the Six Nations, or any of them, to the President of the United States, or the superintendent by him appointed; and by the superintendent, or other person appointed by the President, to the principal chiefs of the Six Nations, or of the nation to which the offender belongs; and such prudent measures shall then be pursued, as shall be necessary to preserve our peace and friendship unbroken, until the Legislature (or great council) of the United States shall make other equitable provisions for the purpose.

Note. It is clearly understood by the parties to this treaty, that the annuity, stipulated in the sixth article, is to be applied to the benefit of such of the Six Nations, and of their Indian friends united with them, as aforesaid, as do or shall reside within the boundaries of the United States; for the United States do not interfere with nations, tribes or families of Indians, elsewhere resident.

In witness whereof, the said Timothy Pickering, and the sachems and war chiefs of the said Six Nations, have hereunto set their hands and seals.

Done at Canandaigua, in the State of New York, the eleventh day of November in the year one thousand seven hundred and ninety-four.

Timothy Pickering
O-no-ye-ah--nee,
Kon-ne-at-or-tee-ooh, or Handsome Lake,
To-kenh-you-hau, Alias Capt. Key,
O-nes-hau-ee,
Hendrich Aupaumut,
David Neesoonhuk,
Kanatsoyh, Alias Nicholas Kusik,
Soh-hon-te-o-quent,
Oo-duht-sa-it,
Ko-nooh-qung,
Tos-song-gau-lo-luss,
John Sken-en-do-a,
O-ne-at-or-lee-ooh,
Handsome Lake,
Kus-sau-wa-tau,
E-yoo-ten-yoo-tau-ook,
Kohn-ye-au-gong, Alias Jake Stroud,
Sha-gui-ea-sa,
Teer-oos, Alias Capt. Prantup,
Soos-ha-oo-wau,
Henry Young Brant,
Senh-yoo-wau-na, or Big Sky,
O-na-ah-hah,
Hot-osh-a-henh,
Kau-kon-da-nai-ya,
Non-di-yau-ka,
Kos-sish-to-wau,
Oo-jau-geht-a, or Fish Carrier,
To-he-ong-go,
Oot-a-guas-so,
Joo-non-dau-wa-onch,
Ki-yau-ha-onh,
Oo-tau-je-au-genh, or Broken Axe,
Tau-ho-on-dos, or Open the Way,
Twau-ke-wash-a,
Se-guid-ong-quee, Alias Little Beard,
Ko-djeota, Alias Half Town,
Ken-jau-au-gus, or Stinking Fish,
Soo-noh-qua-kau,
Twen-ni-ya-na,
Jish-kaa-ga, or Green Grasshopper, Alias Little Billy,
Tug-geh-shot-ta,
Teh-ong-ya-gau-na,
Teh-ong-yoo-wush,
Kon-ne-yoo-we-sot,
Ti-ooh-quot-ta-kau-na, or Woods on Fire
Ta-oun-dau-deesh
Ho-na-ya-wus, Alias Farmer's Brother,
Sog-goo-ya-waut-hau, Alias Red Jacket,
Kon-yoo-tai-yoo,
Sauh-ta-ka-ong-yees, or Two Skies of a Length,
Oun-na-shatta-kau,
Ka-ung-ya-neh-quee,
Soo-a-yoo-wau,
Kau-je-a-ga-onh, or Heap of Dogs,
Soo-nooh-shoo-wau,
Tha-og-wau-ni-as,
Soo-nong-joo-wau,
Ki-ant-whan-ka, Alias Cornplanter,
Kau-neh-shong-goo.

Witnesses:

Israel Chapin,
Wm. Shepard, Jun'r.,
James Smedley,
John Wickham,
Augustus Porter,
James H. Garnsey,
Wm. Ewing,
Israel Chapin, Jun'r.

Interpreters:

Horatio Jones,
Joseph Smith,
Jasper Parrish
Henry Abeele
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#1542694 --- 02/24/20 07:59 PM Re: Cayugas demolish properties [Re: newsman38]
Lee Alias Offline
Member

Registered: 07/12/11
Posts: 103
Loc: NY,Seneca, Seneca Falls
Quick Question(s): How do you tell the good guys from the bad guys? Cayugas'Police Force can they arrest anyone Native American or not? How can you tell their properties? Who's fighting who & why?

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#1542695 --- 02/24/20 08:19 PM Re: Cayugas demolish properties [Re: Lee Alias]
SilverFox Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/19/00
Posts: 6500
Loc: Waterloo
fingerlakes1.com/2020/02/22/cayuga-nation-dispute/
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#1542705 --- 02/25/20 06:19 AM Re: Cayugas demolish properties [Re: SilverFox]
scwoodchuck Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/22/14
Posts: 2365
Loc: LOST IN SPACE
ONE PROBLEM ! THIS ". None of the ten
reservations presently located within the State,
including St. Regis, was created by federal treaty,
statute or executive order. The State of New York
furnishes virtually all governmental services to New
York Indians."

it does not state that the Federal Government does not recognize these reservations, the fact that the BIA gives the Cayuga's money would suggest that they do.
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#1542745 --- 02/25/20 11:07 AM Re: Cayugas demolish properties [Re: scwoodchuck]
SilverFox Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/19/00
Posts: 6500
Loc: Waterloo
You are correct that the Federal government does recognize NYS reservations as stated in Article 2 of the Treaty of Canandaigua.

Article 2. The United States acknowledge the lands reserved to the Oneida, Onondaga, and Cayuga nations, in their respective treaties with the State of New York, and called their reservations, to be their property; and the United States will never claim the same, nor disturb them, or either of the Six Nations, nor their Indian friends, residing thereon, and united with them in the free use and enjoyment thereof; but the said reservations shall remain theirs, until they choose to sell the same to the people of the United States, who have the right to purchase.

The rub in Seneca Falls is the land was sold back to NYS legally. Now Halftown came back to Seneca Falls and bought property on the open market in the former reservation area. Which he had a legal right to do. That in no way makes those purchased lands a legal reservation. The only way that would happen is if the land was taken into Trust. To my knowledge that has never happened. [u]The property is not a reservation and property taxes are to be paid on those lands.[u] To my knowledge, Seneca County has never been able to collect those taxes and the courts have given no legal way to take the property for unpaid taxes.

The Sherrill Supreme Court decision would also apply to the Cayugas in Seneca Falls.

Court sides with Sherrill
Supreme Court justices rule 8-1
Oneida Nation must pay tax to city

The Oneida Indian Nation must pay taxes on its property in the city of Sherrill

In an 8-1 decision, the court ruled that the New York Oneidas cannot disrupt two centuries of local development by refusing to pay local taxes on a gas station and T-shirt factory it owns in Sherrill in Oneida County. New York City lawyer Ira Sacks, who pleaded Sherrill's case pro bono, said, "We were very pleased. The Supreme Court agreed with the principal argument that after 200 years ... the Oneida Indian Nation can't pick and choose places to buy and take it out of local jurisdiction." The justices also remarked on the "distinctly non-Indian character of the area and its inhabitants," because most Oneida Indians moved out of the area about 150 years ago.


Edited by SilverFox (02/25/20 11:23 AM)
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#1542746 --- 02/25/20 11:07 AM Re: Cayugas demolish properties [Re: scwoodchuck]
Hello_Governer Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/03/11
Posts: 1705
Loc: New York, Seneca
As I recall the BIA gave the tribe $650,000 for housing not too long ago.
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#1542760 --- 02/25/20 12:09 PM Re: Cayugas demolish properties [Re: Hello_Governer]
Ben444 Online   content
Silver Member

Registered: 09/12/18
Posts: 14001
Loc: Seneca County
Originally Posted By: Hello_Governer
As I recall the BIA gave the tribe $650,000 for housing not too long ago.
Was this under the current presidential administration?
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#1542782 --- 02/25/20 02:38 PM Re: Cayugas demolish properties [Re: Ben444]
Hello_Governer Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/03/11
Posts: 1705
Loc: New York, Seneca
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#1542788 --- 02/25/20 03:57 PM Re: Cayugas demolish properties [Re: heronmom]
all seeing eye Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/05/07
Posts: 2466
Loc: Seneca Lake
Wish there was a "like" button.

You are right.
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#1542789 --- 02/25/20 04:01 PM Re: Cayugas demolish properties [Re: all seeing eye]
all seeing eye Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/05/07
Posts: 2466
Loc: Seneca Lake
Here is the link to the BIA map of Federal Reservations:

https://www.bia.gov/sites/bia.gov/files/assets/public/webteam/pdf/idc1-028635.pdf
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#1542802 --- 02/25/20 07:13 PM Re: Cayugas demolish properties [Re: all seeing eye]
SilverFox Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/19/00
Posts: 6500
Loc: Waterloo
Thank you for the map. More proof that Halftown is the problem with his twisted interpretation of historical facts. Simply stated the current problems boil down to Halftown wanting to be a dictator. The other group came here hoping to re-establish the traditional Clan Mother government of their ancestors. They held an election according to their beliefs and elected new leaders. Unfortunately, the BIA chose to keep Halftown as the designated agent they would continue to deal with. All this ongoing friction has lead to the current situation. Maybe now it will get a proper investigation and Washington will find out who the trouble maker really is. If I had to choose sides, I wouldn't choose Halftown.


Edited by SilverFox (02/25/20 07:15 PM)
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#1542805 --- 02/25/20 08:22 PM Re: Cayugas demolish properties [Re: all seeing eye]
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 33510
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: all seeing eye
Wish


Quote:

Schumer opposes Cayuga Nation land-into-trust


Sen. Charles Schumer (D-New York) is opposing the Cayuga Nation's land-into-trust request, saying tribes shouldn't be able to get land in urban areas.
"The whole idea of putting land into trust was not designed for densely populated areas," Schumer said in a press release, according to The Auburn Citizen.
The tribe started the land-into-trust process following the U.S. Supreme Court's decision in Sherrill v. Oneida Nation. In the case, the court said the Oneida Nation must go through the process before claiming tax exemption, immunity and other rights on its land.



It would be illogical for a 'tribe' to put a 'federal reservation' into trust

Trust land is owned by the federal government

There are NO FEDERAL reservations in NYS

Without a federal 'reservation' or trust land all taxes are due



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#1542806 --- 02/25/20 08:25 PM Re: Cayugas demolish properties [Re: all seeing eye]
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 33510
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: all seeing eye
Here is the link to the BIA map of Federal Reservations:



Tried to download

Would not function for me

On the bia website it states there are federally recognized tribes that do not have a federal reservation
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#1542807 --- 02/25/20 08:34 PM Re: Cayugas demolish properties [Re: Pravda1984]
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 33510
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Pravda1984

The issues of taxing sales (gasoline/tobacco products, etc) is a related issue to the property tax issues. The current status of the law is that local governments can tax both sales and property, but they cannot force payments as they could against non-native americans. (No seizure or tax sales)



The property is not a federal 'reservation' and is not in trust

All taxes are due


The lawsuit was accepted by the Supreme Court of the United States but the law firm of Harris Beach 'forgot' to file the papers by the deadline.

It most likely would have went against the 'tribe'


Scotus normally doesn't take a case just to rubber stamp it.


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#1542808 --- 02/25/20 08:43 PM Re: Cayugas demolish properties [Re: all seeing eye]
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 33510
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: all seeing eye

we all know about Turning Stone and the Oneidas



Their casino was not built on the 32 acre state reservation

Halbritter is paying a portion of the casino revenue to NYS because it appears he fears the trust application was going to be denied by the lawsuit the cayuga tribe was involved in that was going in front of SCOTUS.

If the casino was on a federal 'reservation' do you think halbritter would pay NYS any money from the casino?

Harris beach forgot to file the papers for the lawsuit



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