Looks like the zoning board has rejected the congregations effort to at least save the property and make it into something that lets it be used and not bought by Hobart. Today's article in the FLTimes mentions that one of the reasons it was rejected was because it would affect the character of the neighborhood. Really? No kidding! But did any of those objecting really think about this? NO. All they were concerned about was keeping things the way they were. Oh no, we don't want more people using Trinity Church! It was so quiet and peaceful with the dwindling congregants. I can't deal with more traffic. Uh, hey dipstick -- you live on Main Street.

People need to wake up and understand that things don't stay the same as they did when you were a kid. Times change, neighborhoods change. Goodness knows Geneva has changed since I grew up here in the 60's and 70's! Some good, some not so great. On some level more traffic means that your city is actually having to deal with a good problem to have!

What I see is a church group that instead of hanging on until the building is falling down and no one is coming to mass, they are looking for ways to move on and leave what is a great building to another set of people that will appreciate and take care of the place. The uses they are proposing would not be a big change from when this church had a full house every mass and on holidays. Come on.

Trinity is too much a part of Geneva to just let it go without a fight. If people were soo worried about property values, how much would an vacant church property be helping your assessed value?

Very well said Pingu. I can't imagine how the transformation of Trinity Church would do anything to harm the "character" of the neighborhood. S. Main Street has been a college area along with several Bed and Breakfasts that have opened in the past few years. Maybe the owners of those places are afraid of competition.

I give high praise to the members of Trinity Church for trying to find a solution to their problem that would also help our community. Its too bad that some members of the community at members of the ZBA are so short sighted to understand what will happen now - just another empty property in Geneva.

Maybe they should turn it into a chicken coop - seems that the City always gives Mr. Henderson his way.

It was very exciting that someone from outside of Geneva thought enough of our community to want to invest time and money here to create a new business. A repurposed church into vibrant property sounds great. How many uses does an old church have? Maybe get it back on the tax rolls? One could only hope. As a church Trinity was great in its day but now is done. It's amazing they have held on as long as they did. The ZBA needs to get their heads out of their collective a@#es and recognize opportunity when it knocks. Kudos to the Trinity members who found the solution! I'm sorry our city abandoned you.

Too bad to see that grand facility not move forward

I think ZBA did the right thing; you can only stretch zoning so far.

It's amazing the lengths the Trinity group were willing to go to in order to avoid merging with the healthy, growing congregation at St. Peter's, an idea that was floated over 5 years ago. The writing was on the wall, having occurred already with the Presbyterian and Catholic churches, but they chose to ignore the obvious.

I doubt if HWS would want the facility since they have their own chapel, but it was already off the tax rolls.

Just trying to grasp what it is your trying to say. The two Catholic churches (St. Stephens and St. Francis) are still here and the Trinity folks have been trying not to just abandon their church but find a use for it. So, they merge with St. Peter's. Great. So what do you do with the property?

Stretch zoning? what do you mean by that? A use variance has clear and deliberate criteria and I believe Trinity could have viably argued each and every point of it. This should have been tabled until public feedback was received and I bet the next hearing would have been more positive. Zoning is just rules put forth at a set point in time based on what a certain group thinks is in the best interests of those having a stake in the outcome.

So again, the results will speak for themselves but I guess some don't mind a vacant property rotting away in their neighborhood.

50 parishioners and $1.5 million in repairs doesn't sound like a great start on the road to survival. By stretch I mean it's a huge change from the original pattern of use and the effect it would have on the neighborhood, as many in the neighborhood remarked at the meeting. If Trinity could have argued these points, why didn't they do so? Public feedback was received - at the meeting. How may do-overs would you like?

Assuming the property would rot is certainly not a foregone conclusion, but it's the best scare tactic they could come up with.

Are any of you that surprised by the decision? Isnt this more of the norm around here? Someone comes that has a vision to move our community forward and it gets shut down. Its been going on for decades. I agree, its more likely to be turned into a community chicken coop. So instead of the building getting a second life ad use, it will sit there. Its just so Geneva.......

Once again a positive for Geneva has been shot down. What now? Why save a historic beautiful building?? Putting the property back on the tax rolls and bring people to Geneva, who wants that?? If the building is torn down then what? A big empty non tax paying area. Maybe a high rise apartment building. What would the parking situation look like then? The church will leave and at some point in the future this situation will keep reappearing until the neighbors may get something they feel is worse.

I wonder how happy the S. Main Street population will be when their neighbors can all raise chickens? Its coming - Mr. Henderson and Mr. Camera are trying to get the City's ok to have chickens anywhere in Geneva.

I also wonder how much the denial from the Zoning Board had to do with the recent uproar over the way they "fired" the chairman? Is it all just dirty rotten politics?

Hobart probably wants a parking lot

First Mr. Camera gouged us for sidewalk repairs, then he wanted to put chickens and composting next door, now he's upping what we will pay for trash pickup. Soon he'll be shooting laser beams down the street to make sure our trash containers all line up properly.

Dear Everyone:

I don't have an opinion either way about the reuse of Trinity Church. I love the building, its architecture and also wonder what lies ahead... I would have to see it become vacant and not maintained. It is my hope that a solution arises to avoid blight.

I think it is important to recognize that the ZBA was tasked with granting a use variance, which is one of the hardest variances to obtain pursuant to state law (General City). I have attached a weblink to a publication created by NYS that is titled "Zoning Board of Appeals."

https://www.dos.ny.gov/lg/publications/Zoning_Board_of_Appeals.pdf

State law does "tie" the hands of local officials many times. It probably would have been easier to amend the Zoning Law then try to grant a use variance.

Sorry... I made a typographical error. I meant to say "I would hate to see it become vacant and not maintained." My apologies.

When are the citizens of Geneva going to stand up to people like Camera? Tacitus is so right. First it was sidewalk repairs and now he wants chickens running all over Geneva. And he is also trying to make the trash haulers pay more which means we pay more. Yet as I have said before, no one seems to say a word.

I'd like to put in a word of support for Mr Camera. Apparently you have never walked or ran in Geneva. The sidewalks need help. I walk regularly and have seen a very nice improvement!

Chickens, Chickens, Chickens?? I just don't get why it is such a big deal. Many cities across the country allow chickens without apparent issue. If the city allows backyard hens how many do you think we will have? Are you expecting 50% of the city residents to get hens? I think we would do better to ban dogs. They leave there duty all over the sidewalks, they bark, they bite. Some breeds may even raise your homeowners insurance. They are a menace to society as we know it. The may kill your children. They are ruining our way of life and must be stopped!! Chickens are be much safer as pets as they are much less hazardous. I may get a chicken;)

I would like to put a word of support in for Council man Camera too. His policies have probably driven more middle class people out of Geneva than anything we have seen in years. I think you will see a major population and commercial shift to the Town of Seneca in the very near future, actually it may have already begun. Someone needs to ask, "with the price of eggs at current lows, who in their right mind would raise chickens " ?

I think the rules for raising chickens legally would probably stop most would-be chicken ranchers. It would be interesting to see the rules applied to current chicken owners to see if they comply.

Regarding sidewalks, I think the frustration is due to the fact that the trees the city plants in the parkways are frequently the cause of lifted sidewalks, and yet it's up to the homeowners to fix them. Maybe we should call this the Camera Tree Tax? We could add it to the list with the Camera Trash Tax, the Camera Poultry Policy and the Camera Compost Compact.

Camera is not a dictator. Policies are adopted by City Council vote. Maybe it's just easier to blame one person than it is to blame all of City Council and the Mayor?

IHHSG is correct - it took the entire council to accept these mandates. But Camera was at the forefront of these ideas, so I still think he should be singled out. What's next - a drive to get rid of plastic shopping bags?

The right people weren't involved, sometimes all it takes is the right last name

Why not turn Trinity Church into a place to dump garbage and use drugs?

That's what the State Street property was being used for before a group of volunteers, headed by Mr. Henderson, cleaned the property up and put their awful chickens on it. The same people so against its use as a chicken coop were nowhere to be found when it was being used as a makeshift landfill. They certainly weren't the ones rolling up their sleeves to help clean up used syringes and years of garbage. The people who did that were people who believe in bettering Geneva - not members of the Good Old Boys Club who believe in keeping everything exactly as it always was.

"I give high praise to the members of Trinity Church for trying to find a solution to their problem that would also help our community. Its too bad that some members of the community at members of the ZBA are so short sighted to understand what will happen now - just another empty property in Geneva."

I'm not sure if your fetish is with chickens or Mr. Henderson himself, but your statement above is so ironic I giggled when I read it. Let me re-purpose it for you:

"I give high praise to Mr. Henderson for finding a solution to the problem - a garbage-filled lot used by drug addicts - that would also help our community, by giving members of it a place to plant gardens and grow fresh eggs. Its too bad that some members of the community are so short sighted to understand what would have happened if Mr. Henderson had run in the other direction at the first sign of opposition - just another empty property in Geneva."

It's easy to hate on chickens and the people who want to raise them in their backyards. Remember that when someone wants to do something you DON'T disapprove of, and the same people so opposed to progress in this city step in and try to shut that down, too.

What really surprised me is that they actually turned down a business that would sell booze. City council seems to like booze as a foundation for revitalization.

My fault. I was trying to draw an extension from (possibly) well-intentioned actions to unintended consequences. I will attempt to be more circumspect.

That's too bad about that church. A viable use comes along and it's quickly shot down. Typical of Geneva.

Residents are rightfully concerned about the impact on neighborhood character, reduced property values and the obvious safety, traffic and parking problems that are certain to occur if such a plan were to be enacted.

Typical commenter shortsightedness.

Timbo makes a good point. I believe the project included a restaurant, an events center, rentals , and space for the church to reside.  All of this would require a lot of parking space, etc   Did the developer take that into account?  It doesn't seem so.

That neighborhood is a conservative one.   So what.  They're entitled to be whatever they want in consensus.  The project seemed to be way too ambitious for this particular neighborhood.  Especially when one of the key issues for south main residents has always been parking space and traffic.  Why poke the bear?

Perhaps a smaller project, say high end loft space in the church either buy or rent.  I believe there is parking on one side of the church and in the back to accomodate the renter/buyers of large lofts.  There are co-ops that can be formed and the co-op takes care of maintenance, etc.  Or simply a monthly maintenance fee  .Just one less invasive idea, I'm sure there are many others.

Both Timbo and Ruby2 have good points. Time to adjust the proposal and get this wonderful property back on the tax roles and being used and maintained.

parking is easily solved

when wegmans did not have enough space for parking before they built their store they purchased a number of homes in that area to solve the condition

the same approach can be use for this project

the developer just needs to purchase one or two homes on pulteney street that are connected to the back yard area

a new parking area and an exit would be created

individuals would enter from south main street and exit from the new parking area onto pulteney street

the city could require that all those that exit only turn right and that would filter the cars leaving the establishment

if the new tax value for the new project would exceed $500,000 then it would be worth it for the developer to acquire one or two homes on pulteney street to move the project forward

hws just built a large performance center a short distance from this project and there is very limited parking space associated with that project

why was that project not stopped?




when hws bought most of the properties on south main street why were the parking and traffic concerns not brought forth then to stop hws from buying the homes and creating the parking problems currently on the south main street area?

• Do you have any evidence to support such obvious assumptions?

• On the whole, retail property has a far higher effect on the residential property values, than does that of prestigious, private colleges located outside a large buffer zone.

• I'd bet doughnuts to dollars that, in fact, LESS tax revenue would ultimately be realized, if such a plan were to be instituted. Anyone in-the-know have any expert knowledge on such tax scenarios?

• Only some of the safety/traffic issues would be mitigated with the plan you offer. A whole new set or problems would also be created as a result.

• Nothing says property devaluation better than a parking light and increased traffic flow in a residential setting.

• Not so easily solved, I say.

Bluezone, we're talking here about a particular present day project. I don't know the history of south main street parking. Maybe the building of the college started the whole mess. I just know it's been a long standing issue on south main street. It's origins are irrelevant to this discussion. It remains an important negative fact of life for the residents there. There's too much going on with that project. What if it fails?In my opinion, again, it's way too ambitious for that street.

I appreciate your creative way of thinking what with the backyard breakthrough, but I don't think it will solve the matter. I still have to cuddle up with Timbo on this one.

the parking and traffic problems have become worse after hws acquired most of the properties along south main st

when the homes were residential the familes parked their cars in their driveway
now the hws student/staff cars occupy both sides of the street



hws has taken 200 acres off the tax rolls
name on retail establishment in the city of geneva that has done that




if the new plan generated $1 that would be far more than is created currently



do you want to tear down the structure?



nearly 70% of the property is off the tax rolls



so where is your solution?

before hws purchased most of the family homes on south main street they were residentials homes

families lived there and they would park their cars in their driveways

now the hws students/staff occupy both sides of the street and the entire length with their cars



drive down south main street during the summer time when the students are gone

the parking and traffic issues are not there then



guardian glass wants their yearly taxes reduced by nearly $2 million

hope you like your next tax bills - call timbo and have him makeup the difference

so where is your solution?

BZ,  "Someone Who Can't See The Forest For The Trees" is someone who is too involved in detail to look at the situation as a whole.  This might apply to you as you pick and choose a sentence here, another there, to make whatever, mischief, or point, you choose at the time, to question or to redirect a topic or discussion, while ignoring entirely the point the individual your are focused on at the moment is making. You're not relating you're obfuscating and under the circumstances your question and answer posts to me and to others, in my opinion, are really for the most part rendered to be seen as nonsense.

My point, put simply, was that I believe the project was way too ambitious for that particular neighborhood.  And I have no doubt that that point was clearly stated in my posts--- I think you know this.

P.S.  this is probably a much stronger response than you deserve from me, but I've been holding back for a long time when it comes to your posts.  No hard feelings really.  Carry on!  Which I'm sure you will.

the reason I will 'quote' a sentence from other poster is so that person knows exactly what I am responding to

I was only responding to your post that parking was the main issue

I presented a possible solution to the parking



the church leader wrote into the local newspaper stating that they looked at all the viable options that were available and that was the only that would work for them

the building needs over $1 million in updates that the church can not afford

the developer was willing to spend nearly $6 million on the project

if this project was rejected because of parking then no other developer will come forward with any other projects or spend $6 million only to have the zoning board reject it

without a developer the church will walk away from the building

most likely hws will buy it for $1 and turn it into student housing or college administration offices

the parking and traffic problems will be even worse then and the property will not see any money from taxes

hopefully a better project will present itself before the church walks away from the building

BZ,  I don't agree with your outlook on this property.  I believe there's hope.  I do think it needs some good marketing to promote it and point out its potential.  You had what I thought was a good idea regarding parking for the larger project.  I also offered a smaller project idea for buyer/renter lofts requiring a few on-site parking spaces.

I would hope there would be other ideas out there, projects that don't require extensive parking accommodations.  A few high end lofts perhaps as I said, modern kitchens, large baths, Jacuzzis, and plenty of open space with moveable walls (on overhead tracks) so the owner/renter can create whatever they want within that open space. 

Maybe a small heated pool for the tenants, steam room, gym.  Oh, and in the cellar individual wine storage units.   Stocked by the seller as a perk!   Oh, and maybe a roof garden or greenhouse and solar panels if feasible.  An area for sitting outside in the summer, read a book, have a glass of wine.  Oh, I better stop here.  I was just dreaming, so satisfying to think of the possibilities.

At any rate, the property needs promotion and selling.  Open lofts with moveable walls reduces cost somewhat.  Perhaps no pool.  I'm sure there are many good ideas out there for that property.  And buyers like doctors from GGH, HWS bigwigs, Cornell, etc.  I know, BZ, all the brass from the tax exempts.  Life is most definitely not fair.

I drove out back of Trinity today and there is a surprising amount of parking. Looks to be around 50 to 70 spots with room to create more. How much parking will the proposed project take? Its right on the cloverleaf for easy access. There are other businesses in the area. A B&B is across the street and the historical society is nearby too. There is another B&B a few doors down. The house directly across the street looks like a junkyard. Why hasn't someone turned them in for some rule against storing garbage in your front yard. This is not a quiet residential neighborhood. Route 14 is a major roadway with lots of truck and car traffic. There are streetlights all along the road. The students walk this area all the time. There is only one word for the ones that let the project slip by, idiots....

as do we

the neighbors who have concerns about the project can set up a fund raiser (go fund me...) to collect the money for the repairs that need to most immediate attention to help the church stay there for a longer period until a valid project comes forth

the homes in that area have values around $500,000 each
the neighbors should be able to come up with some money to help out the church in the short term

the individual that started the musselman and now does the seneca7 running race could set up a fund raiser thru those events to gather money to help the church with repairs that need the most immediate attention

he lives in that area




I offered the parking idea as a suggestion becuase hws has acquired numerous homes that they tore down for their dorms and other buidlings

wegmans tore down a number of homes in order to even have a place to build their store/parking in a residential neighborhood area



that may be a valid project but a developer looks at the numbers

if the lofts do not cover the current cost for repairs, the costs to covert to lofts and the future carrying costs then the developer will move on to another profitable project



the rent on a few  high end lofts would need to be very high to cover all the current repairs (over $1 million),costs to change to lofts, operating costs, taxes, insurance, maintainence, repairs...

would the renters be willing to pay $4,000 or more per month for a high end loft when they can buy a home for less money per month?

it all comes down to the numbers when a developer has to put up his/her own money to finance the project

timbo - you have had 4 days for a solution and have failed to present one

thinking waaaaaaaaaay outside the box

considering the severe parking problems in that area

the church could charge for parking in their lot when the spaces are not needed for their gatherings

it appears that the neighbors have grown comfortable with the decline in the church membership because less traffic and more parking on the street for them

they should have known that eventually the church would be put into a situation where it could not cover its operating costs

now that the parking and traffic may return to the state when the church had full membership the neighbors have resistance about any project that will increase the traffic and parking to previous conditions

they may reject the current project but they should be aware that another project may come forward that could be worse in regards to parking and traffic concerns

the zone board may review this project again

it appears that all zoning members have to vote in favor of the project to allow it to move forward

the developer could develop the old lehigh train station at the north end of sherrill street for a smaller version of the project they are proposing for the church

a few adjacent properties near the train station could be acquired for parking or other options

It's refreshing to see the Geneva Zoning Board is listening to reason on this issue to find compromise. It's disheartening that the group of people against the project have hired outside counsel to represent them in moving against the church. My hope is that compromise is found, the tax base expanded, and the building maintained as it is the only flying buttress in the city!

Does anyone know what the latest is on Trinity church. There was quite a tempest for a short while. The two sides were noisily at play with each other and then, now, quiet! Anyone know what's going on? Are the two sides busy plotting and strategizing for a fall offensive perhaps? Or what?

I believe the neighborhood group has filed a lawsuit over the actions of the planning board.