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#1496039 --- 03/02/17 11:56 AM Trinity Church Reuse
pingu Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/20/07
Posts: 632
Loc: Right here.
Looks like the zoning board has rejected the congregations effort to at least save the property and make it into something that lets it be used and not bought by Hobart. Today's article in the FLTimes mentions that one of the reasons it was rejected was because it would affect the character of the neighborhood. Really? No kidding! But did any of those objecting really think about this? NO. All they were concerned about was keeping things the way they were. Oh no, we don't want more people using Trinity Church! It was so quiet and peaceful with the dwindling congregants. I can't deal with more traffic. Uh, hey dipstick -- you live on Main Street.

People need to wake up and understand that things don't stay the same as they did when you were a kid. Times change, neighborhoods change. Goodness knows Geneva has changed since I grew up here in the 60's and 70's! Some good, some not so great. On some level more traffic means that your city is actually having to deal with a good problem to have!

What I see is a church group that instead of hanging on until the building is falling down and no one is coming to mass, they are looking for ways to move on and leave what is a great building to another set of people that will appreciate and take care of the place. The uses they are proposing would not be a big change from when this church had a full house every mass and on holidays. Come on.

Trinity is too much a part of Geneva to just let it go without a fight. If people were soo worried about property values, how much would an vacant church property be helping your assessed value?

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#1496056 --- 03/02/17 01:32 PM Re: Trinity Church Reuse [Re: pingu]
justacitizen Offline
Member

Registered: 03/19/15
Posts: 62
Very well said Pingu. I can't imagine how the transformation of Trinity Church would do anything to harm the "character" of the neighborhood. S. Main Street has been a college area along with several Bed and Breakfasts that have opened in the past few years. Maybe the owners of those places are afraid of competition.

I give high praise to the members of Trinity Church for trying to find a solution to their problem that would also help our community. Its too bad that some members of the community at members of the ZBA are so short sighted to understand what will happen now - just another empty property in Geneva.

Maybe they should turn it into a chicken coop - seems that the City always gives Mr. Henderson his way.

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#1496073 --- 03/02/17 07:22 PM Re: Trinity Church Reuse [Re: pingu]
genevaparent Offline
Member

Registered: 05/14/09
Posts: 163
Loc: Geneva NY
It was very exciting that someone from outside of Geneva thought enough of our community to want to invest time and money here to create a new business. A repurposed church into vibrant property sounds great. How many uses does an old church have? Maybe get it back on the tax rolls? One could only hope. As a church Trinity was great in its day but now is done. It's amazing they have held on as long as they did. The ZBA needs to get their heads out of their collective a@#es and recognize opportunity when it knocks. Kudos to the Trinity members who found the solution! I'm sorry our city abandoned you.

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#1496080 --- 03/02/17 08:28 PM Re: Trinity Church Reuse [Re: pingu]
Here's Johnny Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/14/10
Posts: 847
Loc: New York
Too bad to see that grand facility not move forward

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#1496096 --- 03/03/17 05:42 AM Re: Trinity Church Reuse [Re: pingu]
Tacitus Offline
Member

Registered: 03/23/15
Posts: 234
I think ZBA did the right thing; you can only stretch zoning so far.

It's amazing the lengths the Trinity group were willing to go to in order to avoid merging with the healthy, growing congregation at St. Peter's, an idea that was floated over 5 years ago. The writing was on the wall, having occurred already with the Presbyterian and Catholic churches, but they chose to ignore the obvious.

I doubt if HWS would want the facility since they have their own chapel, but it was already off the tax rolls.

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#1496135 --- 03/03/17 01:35 PM Re: Trinity Church Reuse [Re: Tacitus]
pingu Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/20/07
Posts: 632
Loc: Right here.
Originally Posted By: Tacitus
I think ZBA did the right thing; you can only stretch zoning so far.

It's amazing the lengths the Trinity group were willing to go to in order to avoid merging with the healthy, growing congregation at St. Peter's, an idea that was floated over 5 years ago. The writing was on the wall, having occurred already with the Presbyterian and Catholic churches, but they chose to ignore the obvious.

I doubt if HWS would want the facility since they have their own chapel, but it was already off the tax rolls.
Just trying to grasp what it is your trying to say. The two Catholic churches (St. Stephens and St. Francis) are still here and the Trinity folks have been trying not to just abandon their church but find a use for it. So, they merge with St. Peter's. Great. So what do you do with the property?

Stretch zoning? what do you mean by that? A use variance has clear and deliberate criteria and I believe Trinity could have viably argued each and every point of it. This should have been tabled until public feedback was received and I bet the next hearing would have been more positive. Zoning is just rules put forth at a set point in time based on what a certain group thinks is in the best interests of those having a stake in the outcome.

So again, the results will speak for themselves but I guess some don't mind a vacant property rotting away in their neighborhood.

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#1496136 --- 03/03/17 03:01 PM Re: Trinity Church Reuse [Re: pingu]
Tacitus Offline
Member

Registered: 03/23/15
Posts: 234
50 parishioners and $1.5 million in repairs doesn't sound like a great start on the road to survival. By stretch I mean it's a huge change from the original pattern of use and the effect it would have on the neighborhood, as many in the neighborhood remarked at the meeting. If Trinity could have argued these points, why didn't they do so? Public feedback was received - at the meeting. How may do-overs would you like?

Assuming the property would rot is certainly not a foregone conclusion, but it's the best scare tactic they could come up with.

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#1496142 --- 03/03/17 07:24 PM Re: Trinity Church Reuse [Re: pingu]
roundtable Offline
Member

Registered: 03/30/11
Posts: 116
Loc: new york state
Are any of you that surprised by the decision? Isnt this more of the norm around here? Someone comes that has a vision to move our community forward and it gets shut down. Its been going on for decades. I agree, its more likely to be turned into a community chicken coop. So instead of the building getting a second life ad use, it will sit there. Its just so Geneva.......

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#1496147 --- 03/04/17 07:37 AM Re: Trinity Church Reuse [Re: pingu]
764379255223 Offline
Member

Registered: 03/02/11
Posts: 85
Loc: Ontario County
Once again a positive for Geneva has been shot down. What now? Why save a historic beautiful building?? Putting the property back on the tax rolls and bring people to Geneva, who wants that?? If the building is torn down then what? A big empty non tax paying area. Maybe a high rise apartment building. What would the parking situation look like then? The church will leave and at some point in the future this situation will keep reappearing until the neighbors may get something they feel is worse.

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#1496198 --- 03/05/17 07:13 AM Re: Trinity Church Reuse [Re: 764379255223]
justacitizen Offline
Member

Registered: 03/19/15
Posts: 62
I wonder how happy the S. Main Street population will be when their neighbors can all raise chickens? Its coming - Mr. Henderson and Mr. Camera are trying to get the City's ok to have chickens anywhere in Geneva.

I also wonder how much the denial from the Zoning Board had to do with the recent uproar over the way they "fired" the chairman? Is it all just dirty rotten politics?

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#1496215 --- 03/05/17 02:57 PM Re: Trinity Church Reuse [Re: justacitizen]
scwoodchuck Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/22/14
Posts: 1935
Loc: LOST IN SPACE
Hobart probably wants a parking lot grin
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#1496219 --- 03/05/17 03:31 PM Re: Trinity Church Reuse [Re: pingu]
Tacitus Offline
Member

Registered: 03/23/15
Posts: 234
First Mr. Camera gouged us for sidewalk repairs, then he wanted to put chickens and composting next door, now he's upping what we will pay for trash pickup. Soon he'll be shooting laser beams down the street to make sure our trash containers all line up properly.

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#1496220 --- 03/05/17 03:33 PM Re: Trinity Church Reuse [Re: pingu]
Libertas Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/14/14
Posts: 9
Dear Everyone:

I don't have an opinion either way about the reuse of Trinity Church. I love the building, its architecture and also wonder what lies ahead... I would have to see it become vacant and not maintained. It is my hope that a solution arises to avoid blight.

I think it is important to recognize that the ZBA was tasked with granting a use variance, which is one of the hardest variances to obtain pursuant to state law (General City). I have attached a weblink to a publication created by NYS that is titled "Zoning Board of Appeals."

https://www.dos.ny.gov/lg/publications/Zoning_Board_of_Appeals.pdf

State law does "tie" the hands of local officials many times. It probably would have been easier to amend the Zoning Law then try to grant a use variance.

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#1496221 --- 03/05/17 03:35 PM Re: Trinity Church Reuse [Re: pingu]
Libertas Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/14/14
Posts: 9
Sorry... I made a typographical error. I meant to say "I would hate to see it become vacant and not maintained." My apologies.

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#1496267 --- 03/06/17 12:26 PM Re: Trinity Church Reuse [Re: Tacitus]
justacitizen Offline
Member

Registered: 03/19/15
Posts: 62
When are the citizens of Geneva going to stand up to people like Camera? Tacitus is so right. First it was sidewalk repairs and now he wants chickens running all over Geneva. And he is also trying to make the trash haulers pay more which means we pay more. Yet as I have said before, no one seems to say a word.

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#1496284 --- 03/06/17 08:40 PM Re: Trinity Church Reuse [Re: justacitizen]
genevaparent Offline
Member

Registered: 05/14/09
Posts: 163
Loc: Geneva NY
I'd like to put in a word of support for Mr Camera. Apparently you have never walked or ran in Geneva. The sidewalks need help. I walk regularly and have seen a very nice improvement!

Chickens, Chickens, Chickens?? I just don't get why it is such a big deal. Many cities across the country allow chickens without apparent issue. If the city allows backyard hens how many do you think we will have? Are you expecting 50% of the city residents to get hens? I think we would do better to ban dogs. They leave there duty all over the sidewalks, they bark, they bite. Some breeds may even raise your homeowners insurance. They are a menace to society as we know it. The may kill your children. They are ruining our way of life and must be stopped!! Chickens are be much safer as pets as they are much less hazardous. I may get a chicken;)

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#1496287 --- 03/07/17 05:19 AM Re: Trinity Church Reuse [Re: genevaparent]
scwoodchuck Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/22/14
Posts: 1935
Loc: LOST IN SPACE
I would like to put a word of support in for Council man Camera too. His policies have probably driven more middle class people out of Geneva than anything we have seen in years. I think you will see a major population and commercial shift to the Town of Seneca in the very near future, actually it may have already begun. Someone needs to ask, "with the price of eggs at current lows, who in their right mind would raise chickens " ?
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#1496288 --- 03/07/17 05:36 AM Re: Trinity Church Reuse [Re: pingu]
Tacitus Offline
Member

Registered: 03/23/15
Posts: 234
I think the rules for raising chickens legally would probably stop most would-be chicken ranchers. It would be interesting to see the rules applied to current chicken owners to see if they comply.

Regarding sidewalks, I think the frustration is due to the fact that the trees the city plants in the parkways are frequently the cause of lifted sidewalks, and yet it's up to the homeowners to fix them. Maybe we should call this the Camera Tree Tax? We could add it to the list with the Camera Trash Tax, the Camera Poultry Policy and the Camera Compost Compact.

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#1496291 --- 03/07/17 06:46 AM Re: Trinity Church Reuse [Re: Tacitus]
IHHSG Offline
Member

Registered: 08/11/12
Posts: 113
Loc: 14456
Originally Posted By: scwoodchuck
I would like to put a word of support in for Council man Camera too. His policies have probably driven more middle class people out of Geneva than anything we have seen in years.


Originally Posted By: Tacitus
Maybe we should call this the Camera Tree Tax? We could add it to the list with the Camera Trash Tax, the Camera Poultry Policy and the Camera Compost Compact.


Camera is not a dictator. Policies are adopted by City Council vote. Maybe it's just easier to blame one person than it is to blame all of City Council and the Mayor?

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#1496317 --- 03/07/17 05:30 PM Re: Trinity Church Reuse [Re: pingu]
Tacitus Offline
Member

Registered: 03/23/15
Posts: 234
IHHSG is correct - it took the entire council to accept these mandates. But Camera was at the forefront of these ideas, so I still think he should be singled out. What's next - a drive to get rid of plastic shopping bags?

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#1496417 --- 03/08/17 08:18 PM Re: Trinity Church Reuse [Re: roundtable]
scwoodchuck Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/22/14
Posts: 1935
Loc: LOST IN SPACE
Originally Posted By: roundtable
Are any of you that surprised by the decision? Isnt this more of the norm around here? Someone comes that has a vision to move our community forward and it gets shut down. Its been going on for decades. I agree, its more likely to be turned into a community chicken coop. So instead of the building getting a second life ad use, it will sit there. Its just so Geneva.......

The right people weren't involved, sometimes all it takes is the right last name grin
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I can't wait till humans evolve into an intelligent species.

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#1496420 --- 03/09/17 04:58 AM Re: Trinity Church Reuse [Re: pingu]
Kells Offline
Member

Registered: 04/16/15
Posts: 111
Why not turn Trinity Church into a place to dump garbage and use drugs?

That's what the State Street property was being used for before a group of volunteers, headed by Mr. Henderson, cleaned the property up and put their awful chickens on it. The same people so against its use as a chicken coop were nowhere to be found when it was being used as a makeshift landfill. They certainly weren't the ones rolling up their sleeves to help clean up used syringes and years of garbage. The people who did that were people who believe in bettering Geneva - not members of the Good Old Boys Club who believe in keeping everything exactly as it always was.

"I give high praise to the members of Trinity Church for trying to find a solution to their problem that would also help our community. Its too bad that some members of the community at members of the ZBA are so short sighted to understand what will happen now - just another empty property in Geneva."

I'm not sure if your fetish is with chickens or Mr. Henderson himself, but your statement above is so ironic I giggled when I read it. Let me re-purpose it for you:

"I give high praise to Mr. Henderson for finding a solution to the problem - a garbage-filled lot used by drug addicts - that would also help our community, by giving members of it a place to plant gardens and grow fresh eggs. Its too bad that some members of the community are so short sighted to understand what would have happened if Mr. Henderson had run in the other direction at the first sign of opposition - just another empty property in Geneva."

It's easy to hate on chickens and the people who want to raise them in their backyards. Remember that when someone wants to do something you DON'T disapprove of, and the same people so opposed to progress in this city step in and try to shut that down, too.

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#1496421 --- 03/09/17 06:05 AM Re: Trinity Church Reuse [Re: Kells]
scwoodchuck Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/22/14
Posts: 1935
Loc: LOST IN SPACE
What really surprised me is that they actually turned down a business that would sell booze. City council seems to like booze as a foundation for revitalization. grin
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I can't wait till humans evolve into an intelligent species.

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#1496498 --- 03/10/17 04:49 PM Re: Trinity Church Reuse [Re: pingu]
Tacitus Offline
Member

Registered: 03/23/15
Posts: 234
My fault. I was trying to draw an extension from (possibly) well-intentioned actions to unintended consequences. I will attempt to be more circumspect.

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#1496514 --- 03/11/17 08:57 AM Re: Trinity Church Reuse [Re: pingu]
The Mechanic Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/24/11
Posts: 1173
Loc: NY
That's too bad about that church. A viable use comes along and it's quickly shot down. Typical of Geneva.
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#1496515 --- 03/11/17 12:13 PM Re: Trinity Church Reuse [Re: The Mechanic]
Timbo Offline
Silver Member

Registered: 07/18/12
Posts: 14295
Loc: CNY
Originally Posted By: The Mechanic
That's too bad about that church. A viable use comes along and it's quickly shot down. Typical of Geneva.

Residents are rightfully concerned about the impact on neighborhood character, reduced property values and the obvious safety, traffic and parking problems that are certain to occur if such a plan were to be enacted.

Typical commenter shortsightedness.
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Everyone's entitled to their own opinions, but not their own facts.

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#1496516 --- 03/11/17 01:22 PM Re: Trinity Church Reuse [Re: pingu]
ruby2 Offline
Member

Registered: 09/22/14
Posts: 186
Timbo makes a good point. I believe the project included a restaurant, an events center, rentals , and space for the church to reside.  All of this would require a lot of parking space, etc   Did the developer take that into account?  It doesn't seem so.

That neighborhood is a conservative one.   So what.  They're entitled to be whatever they want in consensus.  The project seemed to be way too ambitious for this particular neighborhood.  Especially when one of the key issues for south main residents has always been parking space and traffic.  Why poke the bear?

Perhaps a smaller project, say high end loft space in the church either buy or rent.  I believe there is parking on one side of the church and in the back to accomodate the renter/buyers of large lofts.  There are co-ops that can be formed and the co-op takes care of maintenance, etc.  Or simply a monthly maintenance fee  .Just one less invasive idea, I'm sure there are many others.

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#1496681 --- 03/16/17 04:04 PM Re: Trinity Church Reuse [Re: pingu]
pingu Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/20/07
Posts: 632
Loc: Right here.
Both Timbo and Ruby2 have good points. Time to adjust the proposal and get this wonderful property back on the tax roles and being used and maintained.

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#1496809 --- 03/20/17 11:02 AM Re: Trinity Church Reuse [Re: ruby2]
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32488
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: ruby2
I believe the project included a restaurant, an events center, rentals , and space for the church to reside.  All of this would require a lot of parking space, etc   Did the developer take that into account?  It doesn't seem so.


parking is easily solved

when wegmans did not have enough space for parking before they built their store they purchased a number of homes in that area to solve the condition

the same approach can be use for this project

the developer just needs to purchase one or two homes on pulteney street that are connected to the back yard area

a new parking area and an exit would be created

individuals would enter from south main street and exit from the new parking area onto pulteney street

the city could require that all those that exit only turn right and that would filter the cars leaving the establishment

if the new tax value for the new project would exceed $500,000 then it would be worth it for the developer to acquire one or two homes on pulteney street to move the project forward

hws just built a large performance center a short distance from this project and there is very limited parking space associated with that project

why was that project not stopped?


Originally Posted By: ruby2
The project seemed to be way too ambitious for this particular neighborhood.  Especially when one of the key issues for south main residents has always been parking space and traffic. 


when hws bought most of the properties on south main street why were the parking and traffic concerns not brought forth then to stop hws from buying the homes and creating the parking problems currently on the south main street area?
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#1496820 --- 03/20/17 12:37 PM Re: Trinity Church Reuse [Re: bluezone]
Timbo Offline
Silver Member

Registered: 07/18/12
Posts: 14295
Loc: CNY
Originally Posted By: bluezone
when hws bought most of the properties on south main street why were the parking and traffic concerns not brought forth then to stop hws from buying the homes and creating the parking problems currently on the south main street area?

• Do you have any evidence to support such obvious assumptions?

• On the whole, retail property has a far higher effect on the residential property values, than does that of prestigious, private colleges located outside a large buffer zone.

• I'd bet doughnuts to dollars that, in fact, LESS tax revenue would ultimately be realized, if such a plan were to be instituted. Anyone in-the-know have any expert knowledge on such tax scenarios?

• Only some of the safety/traffic issues would be mitigated with the plan you offer. A whole new set or problems would also be created as a result.

• Nothing says property devaluation better than a parking light and increased traffic flow in a residential setting.

• Not so easily solved, I say.
_________________________
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#1496857 --- 03/20/17 06:39 PM Re: Trinity Church Reuse [Re: pingu]
ruby2 Offline
Member

Registered: 09/22/14
Posts: 186
Bluezone, we're talking here about a particular present day project. I don't know the history of south main street parking. Maybe the building of the college started the whole mess. I just know it's been a long standing issue on south main street. It's origins are irrelevant to this discussion. It remains an important negative fact of life for the residents there. There's too much going on with that project. What if it fails?In my opinion, again, it's way too ambitious for that street.

I appreciate your creative way of thinking what with the backyard breakthrough, but I don't think it will solve the matter. I still have to cuddle up with Timbo on this one.

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#1496876 --- 03/21/17 11:16 AM Re: Trinity Church Reuse [Re: Timbo]
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32488
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Do you have any evidence to support such obvious assumptions?


the parking and traffic problems have become worse after hws acquired most of the properties along south main st

when the homes were residential the familes parked their cars in their driveway
now the hws student/staff cars occupy both sides of the street

Originally Posted By: Timbo
• On the whole, retail property has a far higher effect on the residential property values, than does that of prestigious, private colleges located outside a large buffer zone.


hws has taken 200 acres off the tax rolls
name on retail establishment in the city of geneva that has done that


Originally Posted By: Timbo
• I'd bet doughnuts to dollars that, in fact, LESS tax revenue would ultimately be realized, if such a plan were to be instituted. Anyone in-the-know have any expert knowledge on such tax scenarios?


if the new plan generated $1 that would be far more than is created currently

Originally Posted By: Timbo
• Only some of the safety/traffic issues would be mitigated with the plan you offer. A whole new set or problems would also be created as a result.


do you want to tear down the structure?

Originally Posted By: Timbo
• Nothing says property devaluation better than a parking light and increased traffic flow in a residential setting.


nearly 70% of the property is off the tax rolls

Originally Posted By: Timbo
• Not so easily solved, I say.


so where is your solution?
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#1496877 --- 03/21/17 11:27 AM Re: Trinity Church Reuse [Re: ruby2]
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32488
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: ruby2
I don't know the history of south main street parking.


before hws purchased most of the family homes on south main street they were residentials homes

families lived there and they would park their cars in their driveways

now the hws students/staff occupy both sides of the street and the entire length with their cars

Originally Posted By: ruby2
I just know it's been a long standing issue on south main street.


drive down south main street during the summer time when the students are gone

the parking and traffic issues are not there then

Originally Posted By: ruby2
I still have to cuddle up with Timbo on this one.


guardian glass wants their yearly taxes reduced by nearly $2 million

hope you like your next tax bills - call timbo and have him makeup the difference wink
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"OUR COUNTRY IS IN MOURNING, A SOLDIER DIED TODAY."

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#1496921 --- 03/22/17 08:55 AM Re: Trinity Church Reuse [Re: bluezone]
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32488
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Timbo
• Not so easily solved, I say.


so where is your solution?
_________________________
"OUR COUNTRY IS IN MOURNING, A SOLDIER DIED TODAY."

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#1496931 --- 03/22/17 02:11 PM Re: Trinity Church Reuse [Re: pingu]
ruby2 Offline
Member

Registered: 09/22/14
Posts: 186
BZ,  "Someone Who Can't See The Forest For The Trees" is someone who is too involved in detail to look at the situation as a whole.  This might apply to you as you pick and choose a sentence here, another there, to make whatever, mischief, or point, you choose at the time, to question or to redirect a topic or discussion, while ignoring entirely the point the individual your are focused on at the moment is making. You're not relating you're obfuscating and under the circumstances your question and answer posts to me and to others, in my opinion, are really for the most part rendered to be seen as nonsense.

My point, put simply, was that I believe the project was way too ambitious for that particular neighborhood.  And I have no doubt that that point was clearly stated in my posts--- I think you know this.

P.S.  this is probably a much stronger response than you deserve from me, but I've been holding back for a long time when it comes to your posts.  No hard feelings really.  Carry on!  Which I'm sure you will.

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#1496939 --- 03/23/17 07:55 AM Re: Trinity Church Reuse [Re: ruby2]
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32488
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: ruby2
  This might apply to you as you pick and choose a sentence here, another there


the reason I will 'quote' a sentence from other poster is so that person knows exactly what I am responding to

I was only responding to your post that parking was the main issue

I presented a possible solution to the parking

Originally Posted By: ruby2
I believe the project was way too ambitious for that particular neighborhood.


the church leader wrote into the local newspaper stating that they looked at all the viable options that were available and that was the only that would work for them

the building needs over $1 million in updates that the church can not afford

the developer was willing to spend nearly $6 million on the project

if this project was rejected because of parking then no other developer will come forward with any other projects or spend $6 million only to have the zoning board reject it

without a developer the church will walk away from the building

most likely hws will buy it for $1 and turn it into student housing or college administration offices

the parking and traffic problems will be even worse then and the property will not see any money from taxes

hopefully a better project will present itself before the church walks away from the building

_________________________
"OUR COUNTRY IS IN MOURNING, A SOLDIER DIED TODAY."

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#1496968 --- 03/23/17 09:13 PM Re: Trinity Church Reuse [Re: pingu]
ruby2 Offline
Member

Registered: 09/22/14
Posts: 186
BZ,  I don't agree with your outlook on this property.  I believe there's hope.  I do think it needs some good marketing to promote it and point out its potential.  You had what I thought was a good idea regarding parking for the larger project.  I also offered a smaller project idea for buyer/renter lofts requiring a few on-site parking spaces.

I would hope there would be other ideas out there, projects that don't require extensive parking accommodations.  A few high end lofts perhaps as I said, modern kitchens, large baths, Jacuzzis, and plenty of open space with moveable walls (on overhead tracks) so the owner/renter can create whatever they want within that open space. 

Maybe a small heated pool for the tenants, steam room, gym.  Oh, and in the cellar individual wine storage units.   Stocked by the seller as a perk!   Oh, and maybe a roof garden or greenhouse and solar panels if feasible.  An area for sitting outside in the summer, read a book, have a glass of wine.  Oh, I better stop here.  I was just dreaming, so satisfying to think of the possibilities.

At any rate, the property needs promotion and selling.  Open lofts with moveable walls reduces cost somewhat.  Perhaps no pool.  I'm sure there are many good ideas out there for that property.  And buyers like doctors from GGH, HWS bigwigs, Cornell, etc.  I know, BZ, all the brass from the tax exempts.  Life is most definitely not fair.

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#1496970 --- 03/23/17 11:40 PM Re: Trinity Church Reuse [Re: pingu]
genevaparent Offline
Member

Registered: 05/14/09
Posts: 163
Loc: Geneva NY
I drove out back of Trinity today and there is a surprising amount of parking. Looks to be around 50 to 70 spots with room to create more. How much parking will the proposed project take? Its right on the cloverleaf for easy access. There are other businesses in the area. A B&B is across the street and the historical society is nearby too. There is another B&B a few doors down. The house directly across the street looks like a junkyard. Why hasn't someone turned them in for some rule against storing garbage in your front yard. This is not a quiet residential neighborhood. Route 14 is a major roadway with lots of truck and car traffic. There are streetlights all along the road. The students walk this area all the time. There is only one word for the ones that let the project slip by, idiots....

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#1496980 --- 03/24/17 07:57 AM Re: Trinity Church Reuse [Re: ruby2]
bluezone Offline
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Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32488
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: ruby2
I believe there's hope. 


as do we

the neighbors who have concerns about the project can set up a fund raiser (go fund me...) to collect the money for the repairs that need to most immediate attention to help the church stay there for a longer period until a valid project comes forth

the homes in that area have values around $500,000 each
the neighbors should be able to come up with some money to help out the church in the short term

the individual that started the musselman and now does the seneca7 running race could set up a fund raiser thru those events to gather money to help the church with repairs that need the most immediate attention

he lives in that area


Originally Posted By: ruby2
You had what I thought was a good idea regarding parking for the larger project. 


I offered the parking idea as a suggestion becuase hws has acquired numerous homes that they tore down for their dorms and other buidlings

wegmans tore down a number of homes in order to even have a place to build their store/parking in a residential neighborhood area

Originally Posted By: ruby2
I also offered a smaller project idea for buyer/renter lofts requiring a few on-site parking spaces.


that may be a valid project but a developer looks at the numbers

if the lofts do not cover the current cost for repairs, the costs to covert to lofts and the future carrying costs then the developer will move on to another profitable project

Originally Posted By: ruby2
A few high end lofts perhaps as I said, modern kitchens, large baths, Jacuzzis, and plenty of open space with moveable walls (on overhead tracks) so the owner/renter can create whatever they want within that open space.


the rent on a few  high end lofts would need to be very high to cover all the current repairs (over $1 million),costs to change to lofts, operating costs, taxes, insurance, maintainence, repairs...

would the renters be willing to pay $4,000 or more per month for a high end loft when they can buy a home for less money per month?

it all comes down to the numbers when a developer has to put up his/her own money to finance the project

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#1496982 --- 03/24/17 08:13 AM Re: Trinity Church Reuse [Re: bluezone]
bluezone Offline
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Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32488
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo
• Not so easily solved, I say.


so where is your solution?


timbo - you have had 4 days for a solution and have failed to present one
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#1496983 --- 03/24/17 08:20 AM Re: Trinity Church Reuse [Re: genevaparent]
bluezone Offline
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Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32488
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: genevaparent
I drove out back of Trinity today and there is a surprising amount of parking. Looks to be around 50 to 70 spots with room to create more.


thinking waaaaaaaaaay outside the box

considering the severe parking problems in that area

the church could charge for parking in their lot when the spaces are not needed for their gatherings
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#1496984 --- 03/24/17 08:35 AM Re: Trinity Church Reuse [Re: genevaparent]
bluezone Offline
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Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32488
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: genevaparent
There are other businesses in the area. A B&B is across the street and the historical society is nearby too. There is another B&B a few doors down.


it appears that the neighbors have grown comfortable with the decline in the church membership because less traffic and more parking on the street for them

they should have known that eventually the church would be put into a situation where it could not cover its operating costs

now that the parking and traffic may return to the state when the church had full membership the neighbors have resistance about any project that will increase the traffic and parking to previous conditions

they may reject the current project but they should be aware that another project may come forward that could be worse in regards to parking and traffic concerns
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#1497015 --- 03/25/17 02:23 PM Re: Trinity Church Reuse [Re: bluezone]
bluezone Offline
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Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32488
Loc: USA
the zone board may review this project again
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#1497153 --- 03/30/17 09:44 AM Re: Trinity Church Reuse [Re: bluezone]
bluezone Offline
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Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32488
Loc: USA
it appears that all zoning members have to vote in favor of the project to allow it to move forward
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#1498170 --- 04/28/17 07:23 AM Re: Trinity Church Reuse [Re: bluezone]
bluezone Offline
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Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32488
Loc: USA
the developer could develop the old lehigh train station at the north end of sherrill street for a smaller version of the project they are proposing for the church

a few adjacent properties near the train station could be acquired for parking or other options
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#1499309 --- 05/26/17 11:27 AM Re: Trinity Church Reuse [Re: pingu]
ScubaSteve78 Offline
Member

Registered: 09/09/09
Posts: 270
Loc: Bottom of Seneca Lake
It's refreshing to see the Geneva Zoning Board is listening to reason on this issue to find compromise. It's disheartening that the group of people against the project have hired outside counsel to represent them in moving against the church. My hope is that compromise is found, the tax base expanded, and the building maintained as it is the only flying buttress in the city!

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#1503718 --- 08/20/17 05:04 PM Re: Trinity Church Reuse [Re: pingu]
ruby2 Offline
Member

Registered: 09/22/14
Posts: 186
Does anyone know what the latest is on Trinity church. There was quite a tempest for a short while. The two sides were noisily at play with each other and then, now, quiet! Anyone know what's going on? Are the two sides busy plotting and strategizing for a fall offensive perhaps? Or what?

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#1503806 --- 08/21/17 10:18 AM Re: Trinity Church Reuse [Re: ruby2]
gassy one Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/27/16
Posts: 2493
I believe the neighborhood group has filed a lawsuit over the actions of the planning board.

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#1504349 --- 09/01/17 10:08 AM Re: Trinity Church Reuse [Re: pingu]
justacitizen Offline
Member

Registered: 03/19/15
Posts: 62
Zoning not planning

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#1511668 --- 12/30/17 02:43 PM Re: Trinity Church Reuse [Re: justacitizen]
bluezone Offline
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Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32488
Loc: USA
an individual part of the development team described that only 35% of the homes on south main street are single family

the rest are multi family, frat houses or some form of commercial

those in protest are saying that the proposal would alter the neighborhood

the exterior of the church would not change

there is plenty of parking in the parking lot of the church
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#1511714 --- 01/01/18 05:48 AM Re: Trinity Church Reuse [Re: pingu]
Tacitus Offline
Member

Registered: 03/23/15
Posts: 234
There is at most parking for 60 cars, but the promoter is saying there could be events with over 200 in attendance. And the Colleges have emphatically denied offering any access to their parking, despite what the promoter claimed at on elf the meetings.

A conversion to apartments seems like a better fit.

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#1511721 --- 01/01/18 08:46 AM Re: Trinity Church Reuse [Re: Tacitus]
bluezone Offline
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Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32488
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Tacitus
There is at most parking for 60 cars,


purchase two homes adjacent to the (trinity) parking lot on pulteny street

tear them down and make more parking

HWS did that with their new performance center and there is still not enough parking for that building

HWS tore down many homes and a business just for the performance center and still there is not enough parking for largeer events

when there are large golfing events in rochester people charge $1-$5 to allow parking in their driveway/yard

when there is a larger event at trinity the overflow can park in neighboring driveways with permission

if the parking is expanded at trinity then HWS could use the extra parking for when they have larger events at the performance center - charge $1 to park in the trinity parking lot if space is available

set up a shuttle for parking downtown for the larger events at trinity

Originally Posted By: Tacitus
but the promoter is saying there could be events with over 200 in attendance. And the Colleges have emphatically denied offering any access to their parking


if there are 200 in attendance that does not mean there will be 200 cars to be parked

there could be 2,3,4,5 people per car

some people may walk to the location if they live in the area of geneva for some events

HWS has their football stadium / sport center and there are only about 40 parking spots for both of those

where do all the people park when HWS has a football game?

at wegmans, at the plaza, at the businesses across the street, along all the streets within a mile of the football stadium on side streets - creating a serious hazard if emergency vehicles need to go down any of those narrow streets

should HWS build a much larger parking area for when they have football, lacrosse, soccer games and there is a larger spillage of parked cars on city streets?

HWS has overwhelmed south main street with the student parking and large amounts of people crossing a highly traveled street

will HWS build a larger parking area to accomadate with the serious parking situation on south main street and lower the amount of people crossing the street?

HWS has a very large open field to put a parking lot in to move the parking off south main and that will also keep people from crossing south main to get to their cars
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#1511747 --- 01/01/18 03:02 PM Re: Trinity Church Reuse [Re: Tacitus]
bluezone Offline
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Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32488
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Tacitus
A conversion to apartments seems like a better fit.


about how may apartments would be able to fit in the building?
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#1511909 --- 01/04/18 01:37 PM Re: Trinity Church Reuse [Re: Tacitus]
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32488
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Tacitus
A conversion to apartments seems like a better fit.


option 1

move forward with this project
it will generate property taxes, water fees, sewer fees, sales taxes, jobs...


option 2

HWS buys it
takes it off the tax rolls
turns it into a frat house
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#1511924 --- 01/04/18 06:14 PM Re: Trinity Church Reuse [Re: pingu]
rock 963 Offline
Member

Registered: 04/29/09
Posts: 58
Loc: Geneva, NY
Something needs to happen with the property that brings it onto the city's tax roll. Costs to live in this city have done nothing, but increase. It's not that people don't want to live here, they simply can't, it's too damn expensive! I'd have to agree that Camera has driven out the middle class because of an increase in cost. I can't just blame him, city council is also to blame. You can't just increase costs on things in order to generate more income for the city, it's not that simple. I've been a city resident all my life and a home owner for nearly 8 years. When is the misallocation of funds going to stop? City council needs to take a look at where this money is being spent. Wake up. I'm all for old historic neighborhoods and it can stay that way, but times change and this city needs to get with it.
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#1511938 --- 01/05/18 04:00 AM Re: Trinity Church Reuse [Re: rock 963]
Timbo Offline
Silver Member

Registered: 07/18/12
Posts: 14295
Loc: CNY

Do you have specific proposals for the best allocation of said funds?
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#1511969 --- 01/05/18 03:52 PM Re: Trinity Church Reuse [Re: pingu]
FLaker Offline
Member

Registered: 12/03/13
Posts: 81
Loc: Finger Lakes
I'm having some trouble understanding exactly what the neighborhood opponents are arguing with regard to the proposed project "charging the neighborhood."

Although the building may not presently operate "24-7", the is a gathering venue with a lot of activity. Things may have slowed since its heyday, but nevertheless. It is currently occupied by a church, and the building has hosted and continues to host a wide array of events, including large religious services, community meetings, public events, art classes, craft shows, AA meetings, etc. How would the proposed changes dramatically alter the neighborhood?

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#1511970 --- 01/05/18 04:01 PM Re: Trinity Church Reuse [Re: Timbo]
bluezone Offline
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Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32488
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Do you have specific proposals for the ?


do you have any specific proposal for the trinity church situation?

this thread has been active for 9 months and still no solution from you...
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#1511972 --- 01/05/18 04:07 PM Re: Trinity Church Reuse [Re: FLaker]
bluezone Offline
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Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32488
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: FLaker
It is currently occupied by a church, and the building has hosted and continues to host a wide array of events, including large religious services, community meetings, public events, art classes, craft shows, AA meetings, etc.


also large weddings

the neighbors had no concerns for any of those large gatherings

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#1511975 --- 01/05/18 04:49 PM Re: Trinity Church Reuse [Re: bluezone]
Timbo Offline
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Registered: 07/18/12
Posts: 14295
Loc: CNY
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Do you have specific proposals for the ?

do you have any specific proposal for the trinity church situation?

this thread has been active for 9 months and still no solution from you...

I'M not the one making the argument, now AM I???

Those criticizing, however, SHOULD offer some viable solutions. Otherwise, it's merely armchair carping.
crazy
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#1511976 --- 01/05/18 04:57 PM Re: Trinity Church Reuse [Re: pingu]
Tacitus Offline
Member

Registered: 03/23/15
Posts: 234
The "neighbors" ("community" might be another term) had seen very few weddings, but those that occurred were usually on weekends, frequently during the summer months when HWS was not in session. The promoter is asking for the opportunity to host large events at any time, which is a significant departure from current use.

There are two issues: how do the congregants of Trinity continue to worship, and what to do with this property. They are NOT irrevocably linked, as the congregants could elect to join the other, growing, congregation at St. Peter's. If this issue is resolved, then the building issue (turning it into apartments) is easier to accept.

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#1511978 --- 01/05/18 05:47 PM Re: Trinity Church Reuse [Re: Tacitus]
bluezone Offline
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Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32488
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Tacitus
There are two issues: how do the congregants of Trinity continue to worship, and what to do with this property. They are NOT irrevocably linked, as the congregants could elect to join the other, growing, congregation at St. Peter's.


would it be correct that parking at st. peters is limited?

a more logical approach would be for the congregation of st. peters to join the trinity congregration and use the trinity for both of them.

they will now both have ample parking

st. peters building could be used as the new site for the developer instead of the trinity building

homes near st. peters could be bought (torn down or moved) and a parking lot be made at that location

trinity needs $1.5 million in repairs

if st. peters sold for $2 million to the developer it would cover the repair costs at trinity

st. peters does not need any repair so a $2 million sales price should be fair to the developer

two problems solved

would you agree?

the neighbors on south main st may like that idea better
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#1511997 --- 01/06/18 05:32 AM Re: Trinity Church Reuse [Re: pingu]
Tacitus Offline
Member

Registered: 03/23/15
Posts: 234
Parking at St. Peter's is not an issue since most of the usage is on Sunday, not at random times throughout the week, and they can access the parking in the lot off Geneva Street which is empty on Sunday.

St. Peter's also conducts two services. To extend your illogical process, I'm sure the neighbors on S. Main would be fine with an events center that limited its events to 60 people, but ran all day - say, 4 sessions of a wedding reception. St. Peter's has a growing congregation, while Trinity's is shrinking. Is it easier to move 60 people (tops) or over 300?

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#1512000 --- 01/06/18 07:23 AM Re: Trinity Church Reuse [Re: Tacitus]
bluezone Offline
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Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32488
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Tacitus
Parking at St. Peter's is not an issue since most of the usage is on Sunday, not at random times throughout the week,

Originally Posted By: Tacitus
Is it easier to move 60 people (tops) or over 300?


if 300 attend on sunday with two per car then that would mean parking for 150 cars?
how does that not impact the neighbors near st peters if all the parking is mostly on the street?

Originally Posted By: Tacitus
they can access the parking in the lot off Geneva Street which is empty on Sunday.


are you refering to the city parking lot?

if so then that would mean there is not enough parking for st peters

if a large gathering occurred at st peters on any other day besides sunday would that not have a large impact on the neighbhors in that area because the city parking lot would be largely utilized?

Originally Posted By: Tacitus
I'm sure the neighbors on S. Main would be fine with an events center that limited its events to 60 people


when trinity had a full congregation were the gatherings around 60 or far greater?
the s main neighbors had little concern when the gatherings were far greater than 60 at trinity

Originally Posted By: Tacitus
Is it easier to move 60 people (tops) or over 300?


move?
the building is not going to be moved

the people attending the services could easily drive to the south main street trinity location

if 60 more were added to st peters services then were would the additional 30-60 parking spaces come from?

Originally Posted By: Tacitus
I'm sure the neighbors on S. Main would be fine with an events center that limited its events to 60 people


if the project does not move forward it may likely turn into a frat house
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#1512023 --- 01/06/18 01:21 PM Re: Trinity Church Reuse [Re: bluezone]
Timbo Offline
Silver Member

Registered: 07/18/12
Posts: 14295
Loc: CNY
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo
• Not so easily solved, I say.
so where is your solution?

timbo - you have had 4 days for a solution and have failed to present one

Unlike some, I prefer to hold my tongue until greater examination allows for good, workable solutions. grin
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#1512028 --- 01/06/18 02:37 PM Re: Trinity Church Reuse [Re: pingu]
Tacitus Offline
Member

Registered: 03/23/15
Posts: 234
Blue, I see your problem: you're trying to compare church services at St. Peter's with 24 / 7 events center activity at Trinity. I concede that St. Peter's would be unsuitable as an event center. That doesn't mean Trinity isn't also unsuitable as well.

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#1512033 --- 01/06/18 03:35 PM Re: Trinity Church Reuse [Re: Tacitus]
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32488
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Tacitus
you're trying to compare church services at St. Peter's with 24 / 7 events center activity at Trinity.


Originally Posted By: Tacitus
I'm sure the neighbors on S. Main would be fine with an events center that limited its events to 60 people


it appears you want to restrict usage at trinity by the number of cars that can be parked in their on site parking lot - about 60

should that also apply to other establishments?

HWS does not have enough on site parking for their larger football,lacrosse, soccer... games

should their events be limited to the amount of on site parking they have available?

HWS has overwhelmed the south main street parking area with their frat homes, college offices and dorms

should they be limited by the amount of on site parking they provide?

St. Peters lacks ample on site parking for 300 members

should they be required to buy land and provide ample parking for their 300 members?

if they fail to do so should they stop their events?

it was written in the times that the attorney that opposes this idea has 3 apartment buildings on south main that all lack any on site parking

should be allowed?

the trinity situation is complex

hopefully a compromise can be reached to preserve the structure
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#1512042 --- 01/06/18 04:18 PM Re: Trinity Church Reuse [Re: pingu]
Tacitus Offline
Member

Registered: 03/23/15
Posts: 234
As apartments.

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#1512044 --- 01/06/18 04:26 PM Re: Trinity Church Reuse [Re: Tacitus]
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32488
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Tacitus
As apartments.


how many apartments?
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#1512045 --- 01/06/18 04:32 PM Re: Trinity Church Reuse [Re: Timbo]
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32488
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Timbo
I prefer to hold my tongue


is that your new years resolution?

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#1512057 --- 01/06/18 05:25 PM Re: Trinity Church Reuse [Re: Tacitus]
bluezone Offline
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Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32488
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Tacitus
As apartments.


would require an egress/fire exit for each apartment on the exterior wall

second story apartments would require a stairway to teh ground

very expensive if the walls may approach a 2 foot thickness in some spots

very unattractive

all the stain glass windows would need to be removed and safety glass installed

very expensive to have large windows custom made that size and have them installed

the electrical, plummbing and drains could not be run inside the stone walls

any drains in the floor would require a trench be cut into the floor

heating and air conditioning is a challenge for stone walls

wood frame structures are less of a challenge and less of an expense

just a few items needing to be addressed with apartment conversion
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#1512101 --- 01/07/18 04:56 AM Re: Trinity Church Reuse [Re: pingu]
Tacitus Offline
Member

Registered: 03/23/15
Posts: 234
All of which, and more, would be required of a facility that hosts 200+ people. Don't forget ADA compliance.

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#1512103 --- 01/07/18 07:59 AM Re: Trinity Church Reuse [Re: Tacitus]
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32488
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Tacitus
All of which, and more, would be required of a facility that hosts 200+ people. Don't forget ADA compliance.


incorrect

the building can currently host 200+ people as it relates to egress/fire exits
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#1512104 --- 01/07/18 08:09 AM Re: Trinity Church Reuse [Re: Tacitus]
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32488
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Tacitus
As apartments.


the leadership of the trinity have said they looked at all viable options and apartments are not possible

do you believe the leadership of the church are going to withhold information if apartments were an option?

remember they are the leadership of a church

those that are against this may want to get money together to purchase the trinity and spend large amounts of money to convert it to apartments

before you even put up one piece of drywall to convert it to apartments you would need to spend $1.5 million on the needed repairs

unless you want a frat house at that location
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#1512107 --- 01/07/18 08:54 AM Re: Trinity Church Reuse [Re: Tacitus]
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32488
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Tacitus
As apartments.


if they were to convert some of the area to a small coffee shop, sub shop, pizza shop, grocery store... or some other needed venue to cater to the HWS students/neighbors that would allow them to get the money to make the needed repairs would that be acceptable to the neighbors?
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#1512176 --- 01/08/18 06:04 AM Re: Trinity Church Reuse [Re: pingu]
Tacitus Offline
Member

Registered: 03/23/15
Posts: 234
As I stated originally, I think the this issue is actually 2 questions, what to do to keep the building, and what to do to keep the congregation in the building. I think the congregation is assuming both have to happen when they argue for an events center, while I think you can preserve the outside of the building via an apartment conversion that has little impact on the neighborhood. I'm not a neighbor, and I don't claim to speak for them. I think a coffee, sub or pizza shop would be likely to fail given the competition nearby and on campus, nor would it generate enough income to cover repairs.

The fact that a congregation of 60 (and dwindling) needs $1.5 million to make basic repairs speaks volumes.

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#1512180 --- 01/08/18 06:41 AM Re: Trinity Church Reuse [Re: Tacitus]
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32488
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Tacitus
while I think you can preserve the outside of the building via an apartment conversion that has little impact on the neighborhood


if it were converted to apartments

20 possible apartments?

10 smaller apartments (1 bedroom) with possibly 1 parking space needed
10 larger apartements(2 bedroom) with possibly 2 parking spaces needed

total parking would be about 30 or more for tenants
excluding visitors coming to see the tenants

church may need around 40-60?

their parking lot has exceeded the 60 spaces

reduce the amount of apartments down to 10 or 15?

the parking lot is still exceeding capacity
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#1512195 --- 01/08/18 01:37 PM Re: Trinity Church Reuse [Re: pingu]
Tacitus Offline
Member

Registered: 03/23/15
Posts: 234
RE-calculate using 0 for church parking and you're all set.

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#1512252 --- 01/09/18 04:22 PM Re: Trinity Church Reuse [Re: Tacitus]
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32488
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Tacitus
As apartments.


senior citizens housing?

some of their members may have an interest in living there

possible funding from NYS?
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#1512825 --- 01/30/18 10:01 AM Re: Trinity Church Reuse [Re: Tacitus]
bluezone Offline
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Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32488
Loc: USA
the geneva historical society needs more space
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#1513135 --- 02/08/18 07:21 PM Re: Trinity Church Reuse [Re: pingu]
Tacitus Offline
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Today's FLT indicates that the social mission & business offices of Trinity are now at 78 Castle Street, just 1 block away from St. Peter's. Maybe they can make the last step...

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#1514209 --- 04/19/18 09:03 AM Re: Trinity Church Reuse [Re: Tacitus]
bluezone Offline
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if trinity gets the approval for their conversion would that be needed?
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#1514812 --- 05/17/18 10:25 AM Re: Trinity Church Reuse [Re: Tacitus]
bluezone Offline
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FL times states the Zone board approved the project to move forward
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#1514863 --- 05/18/18 07:26 PM Re: Trinity Church Reuse [Re: pingu]
Tacitus Offline
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I expect there will be some legal challenges from the neighbors. How this isn't an impact on the neighborhood id hard to accept.

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#1515599 --- 06/14/18 05:31 AM Re: Trinity Church Reuse [Re: Tacitus]
bluezone Offline
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Originally Posted By: Tacitus
How this isn't an impact on the neighborhood id hard to accept.


it is a large structure

if it were turned into a taxable property than it would need to generate considerable cash to pay for the taxes on the property

if it was converted to apartments there would still be people coming and going
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#1515646 --- 06/14/18 04:50 PM Re: Trinity Church Reuse [Re: pingu]
Tacitus Offline
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1) You don't know what the taxes would be

2) Shouldn't rich properties pay their share - you're always going after HWS.

3) Compare, if you can, 30 apartment dwellers following a normal daily routine to 200 event attendees arriving, or departing, within a small amount of time.

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#1515673 --- 06/15/18 09:55 AM Re: Trinity Church Reuse [Re: Tacitus]
bluezone Offline
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Originally Posted By: Tacitus
1) You don't know what the taxes would be


the current city assessment is over $2 million for that property

if a developer spends a few million more dollars on improvements do you think the city will place the assessment at around only $50,000?

the assessment will exceed $2 million after a large amount of money is spent on improvements

the assessment will most likely double

Originally Posted By: Tacitus

2) Shouldn't rich properties pay their share


all properties should pay their fair share

Originally Posted By: Tacitus
3) Compare, if you can, 30 apartment dwellers following a normal daily routine to 200 event attendees arriving, or departing, within a small amount of time.


will those living in the apartments be allowed to have friends, family, guests... come over to visit?

HWS has large crowds
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#1515684 --- 06/15/18 03:30 PM Re: Trinity Church Reuse [Re: pingu]
Tacitus Offline
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Do you think any developer is going to put in a dime without a lucrative tax abatement agreement?

Do you think all of the apartment dwellers will all have large parties beginning and ending at the same time? HWS does have large crowds, but they also have a lot of parking. And you would expect something billed as an "events center" to have more events than HWS if they're going to stay in business.

Maybe this is the best place for the Popeye's Chicken - at least they could have a drive-thru window.

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#1515697 --- 06/16/18 07:21 AM Re: Trinity Church Reuse [Re: Tacitus]
bluezone Offline
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Originally Posted By: Tacitus
Do you think any developer is going to put in a dime without a lucrative tax abatement agreement?


the developer for this project has not mentioned any abatement terms

Originally Posted By: Tacitus
Do you think all of the apartment dwellers will all have large parties beginning and ending at the same time?


the point was thatthere would be more 'people traffic' than just those living there

Originally Posted By: Tacitus
HWS does have large crowds, but they also have a lot of parking.


parking overflows into neighboring streets for events at the HWS stadium

the perfomance center lacks enough parking

there is a lack of parking for students and staff during the school year


Originally Posted By: Tacitus
Maybe this is the best place for the Popeye's Chicken - at least they could have a drive-thru window.


grin

and how many customers would they need to serve daily to stay in business?

Originally Posted By: Tacitus
a normal daily routine to 200 event attendees


more than 200 per day?

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#1515846 --- 06/19/18 04:23 PM Re: Trinity Church Reuse [Re: pingu]
Tacitus Offline
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Between the neighborhood opposition and the difficulty in getting financing, I think this problem has solved itself.

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#1515859 --- 06/19/18 06:05 PM Re: Trinity Church Reuse [Re: Tacitus]
bluezone Offline
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Originally Posted By: Tacitus
I think this problem has solved itself.


how so?

if the building is abandoned, the roof fails, water destroys the structure...

is that how you consider it solved?


most likely HWS would buy it for a $1 at that point and turn it into student dorms

bet the neighbors would love that idea whistle


---- parrott hall on the cornell experiment campus ----
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#1515861 --- 06/19/18 06:11 PM Re: Trinity Church Reuse [Re: Tacitus]
bluezone Offline
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Originally Posted By: Tacitus
Today's FLT indicates that the social mission & business offices of Trinity are now at 78 Castle Street, just 1 block away from St. Peter's. Maybe they can make the last step...



if you want the members of St Peters and the members at Trinity to combine

would it make more sense to move both into the Trinity location as there is more parking at the trinity location?

turn St Peters into senior housing?
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#1515868 --- 06/20/18 04:38 AM Re: Trinity Church Reuse [Re: pingu]
Tacitus Offline
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Right. Ask the large and growing parish with a superb music program to abandon their mission in downtown Geneva and move into the crumbling building with a dwindling, aging congregation so they can help all those impoverished souls on S. Main Street.

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#1516074 --- 06/25/18 06:18 PM Re: Trinity Church Reuse [Re: Tacitus]
bluezone Offline
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Originally Posted By: Tacitus
Ask the large and growing parish


and where do all those people park?

Originally Posted By: Tacitus
with a superb music program


is it the building that makes their music program superb?

Originally Posted By: Tacitus
to abandon their mission in downtown Geneva and move into the crumbling building


does St. Peters need a new roof?

are the gutters missing or falling off?

allowing large amounts of rain water (due to missing gutters/downspouts) to fall near the foundation will eventually undermine the soil causing the foundation to fail and cracks will appear in the walls

it would be rather expensive to repair the massive foundations that hold up the thick stone walls

how many months do they plan to keep a large piece of cardboard on a broken window?

Originally Posted By: Tacitus
with a dwindling, aging congregation so they can help all those impoverished souls on S. Main Street.


you suggested they merge with St Peters

the location on south main street has a larger parking area
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#1516154 --- 06/28/18 03:15 PM Re: Trinity Church Reuse [Re: Tacitus]
bluezone Offline
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Originally Posted By: Tacitus
Between the neighborhood opposition and the difficulty in getting financing, I think this problem has solved itself.


local newspaper had a story saying the neighbors were bringing court action

if there is financing difficulty why would court action be needed by the neighbors?

rather than bringing court action the neighbors should suggest viable options for the future of the church

is it true that the neighbor bringing the court action also runs a B & B out of her property near the church?
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#1516168 --- 06/28/18 04:59 PM Re: Trinity Church Reuse [Re: pingu]
Tacitus Offline
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As predicted, the new lawsuit promises to tie up this project for another extended period. The building continues to deteriorate and the congregation dwindles.

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#1516199 --- 06/29/18 04:44 PM Re: Trinity Church Reuse [Re: Tacitus]
bluezone Offline
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Originally Posted By: Tacitus
the new lawsuit promises to tie up this project for another extended period.


it appears what you are saying is that those individuals on south main street against the project have not offered any viable solutions

Originally Posted By: Tacitus
The building continues to deteriorate


if the project moved forward would that be the case?

Originally Posted By: Tacitus
The building continues to deteriorate


does that increase the odds that hws will buy it, take it off the tax rolls and turn it into student housing?
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#1516206 --- 06/30/18 07:52 PM Re: Trinity Church Reuse [Re: pingu]
Tacitus Offline
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So it's up to the neighbors to offer an alternative to this scam?

If my home were in disrepair, I wouldn't ask my neighbors to fund the repairs, so why is this different?

Quit using HWS as the boogeyman in an issue that does;t involve this property.

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#1516502 --- 07/08/18 07:14 PM Re: Trinity Church Reuse [Re: Tacitus]
bluezone Offline
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Originally Posted By: Tacitus
So it's up to the neighbors to offer an alternative to this scam?


if they have a better option all they need to do is bring it forward

Originally Posted By: Tacitus
If my home were in disrepair, I wouldn't ask my neighbors to fund the repairs, so why is this different?


is the church asking for the neighbors to pay for the repairs?

Originally Posted By: Tacitus
Quit using HWS as the boogeyman in an issue that does;t involve this property.


you said financing may be a problem

does hws not have a sizable endowment where they could buy the property for only a $1 and then turn it into student housing?

has hws not created traffic and parking problems on south main street over the past 15 years?

where were the same neighbors then?
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#1516506 --- 07/08/18 07:38 PM Re: Trinity Church Reuse [Re: pingu]
Tacitus Offline
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They don't need to have a better option, they just need to point out the damage to their neighborhood and violation of the planning document.

The church is asking the neighbors to accept a significant damage to their neighborhood with no compensation.

Maybe they don't need the housing, or the expense of bringing it up to code? It's not as if they have infinite funds. When the endowment is reduced, so are the earnings which support faculty salaries and scholarships.

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#1516883 --- 07/15/18 09:16 AM Re: Trinity Church Reuse [Re: Tacitus]
bluezone Offline
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Originally Posted By: Tacitus
They don't need to have a better option


if the neighbors do not have a better plan are they in a position to complain?


Originally Posted By: Tacitus
The church is asking the neighbors to accept a significant damage to their neighborhood with no compensation.


hws has done far more damage to that neighborhood than one single project will ever do

will jobs be created?
will property taxes now be paid?
will school taxes now be paid?
will higher water/sewer revenue be generated?
will more sales taxes be collected?
will the structure be saved?
etc
etc
etc


Originally Posted By: Tacitus
Maybe they don't need the housing,


until all hws students reside inside the campus perimeter then hws will always need off campus student housing

are you suggesting that the off campus hws student housing creates little problems for any of the neighors near the units?

Originally Posted By: Tacitus
the expense of bringing it up to code?


how much did hws just spend on their performance center?

was it $25 million?


Originally Posted By: Tacitus
It's not as if they have infinite funds.


their students pay tuition
until they run out of students and tuition they have adequate funds

Originally Posted By: Tacitus
When the endowment is reduced,


hws will just start a fund drive to get more money from past graduates to increase the endowment

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#1516884 --- 07/15/18 09:35 AM Re: Trinity Church Reuse [Re: Tacitus]
bluezone Offline
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Originally Posted By: Tacitus
Between the neighborhood opposition


is it true that St Peters wants to move parking from the west side of genesee street to the east side so they do not have to walk across the street?

they have areas on lewis street, geneva street and the street sections around the small city park next door to drop off people
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