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#1496809 --- 03/20/17 04:02 PM
Re: Trinity Church Reuse
[Re: ruby2]
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Diamond Member
Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 36263
Loc: USA
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I believe the project included a restaurant, an events center, rentals , and space for the church to reside. All of this would require a lot of parking space, etc  Did the developer take that into account? It doesn't seem so. parking is easily solved when wegmans did not have enough space for parking before they built their store they purchased a number of homes in that area to solve the condition the same approach can be use for this project the developer just needs to purchase one or two homes on pulteney street that are connected to the back yard area a new parking area and an exit would be created individuals would enter from south main street and exit from the new parking area onto pulteney street the city could require that all those that exit only turn right and that would filter the cars leaving the establishment if the new tax value for the new project would exceed $500,000 then it would be worth it for the developer to acquire one or two homes on pulteney street to move the project forward hws just built a large performance center a short distance from this project and there is very limited parking space associated with that project why was that project not stopped? The project seemed to be way too ambitious for this particular neighborhood. Especially when one of the key issues for south main residents has always been parking space and traffic. when hws bought most of the properties on south main street why were the parking and traffic concerns not brought forth then to stop hws from buying the homes and creating the parking problems currently on the south main street area?
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#1496820 --- 03/20/17 05:37 PM
Re: Trinity Church Reuse
[Re: bluezone]
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Silver Member
Registered: 07/18/12
Posts: 14706
Loc: CNY
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when hws bought most of the properties on south main street why were the parking and traffic concerns not brought forth then to stop hws from buying the homes and creating the parking problems currently on the south main street area?
• Do you have any evidence to support such obvious assumptions? • On the whole, retail property has a far higher effect on the residential property values, than does that of prestigious, private colleges located outside a large buffer zone. • I'd bet doughnuts to dollars that, in fact, LESS tax revenue would ultimately be realized, if such a plan were to be instituted. Anyone in-the-know have any expert knowledge on such tax scenarios? • Only some of the safety/traffic issues would be mitigated with the plan you offer. A whole new set or problems would also be created as a result. • Nothing says property devaluation better than a parking light and increased traffic flow in a residential setting. • Not so easily solved, I say.
_________________________
Everyone's entitled to their own opinions, but not their own facts.
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#1496876 --- 03/21/17 04:16 PM
Re: Trinity Church Reuse
[Re: Timbo]
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Diamond Member
Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 36263
Loc: USA
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Do you have any evidence to support such obvious assumptions? the parking and traffic problems have become worse after hws acquired most of the properties along south main st when the homes were residential the familes parked their cars in their driveway now the hws student/staff cars occupy both sides of the street • On the whole, retail property has a far higher effect on the residential property values, than does that of prestigious, private colleges located outside a large buffer zone. hws has taken 200 acres off the tax rolls name on retail establishment in the city of geneva that has done that • I'd bet doughnuts to dollars that, in fact, LESS tax revenue would ultimately be realized, if such a plan were to be instituted. Anyone in-the-know have any expert knowledge on such tax scenarios? if the new plan generated $1 that would be far more than is created currently • Only some of the safety/traffic issues would be mitigated with the plan you offer. A whole new set or problems would also be created as a result. do you want to tear down the structure? • Nothing says property devaluation better than a parking light and increased traffic flow in a residential setting. nearly 70% of the property is off the tax rolls • Not so easily solved, I say. so where is your solution?
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#1496877 --- 03/21/17 04:27 PM
Re: Trinity Church Reuse
[Re: ruby2]
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Diamond Member
Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 36263
Loc: USA
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I don't know the history of south main street parking. before hws purchased most of the family homes on south main street they were residentials homes families lived there and they would park their cars in their driveways now the hws students/staff occupy both sides of the street and the entire length with their cars I just know it's been a long standing issue on south main street. drive down south main street during the summer time when the students are gone the parking and traffic issues are not there then I still have to cuddle up with Timbo on this one. guardian glass wants their yearly taxes reduced by nearly $2 million hope you like your next tax bills - call timbo and have him makeup the difference 
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#1496931 --- 03/22/17 07:11 PM
Re: Trinity Church Reuse
[Re: pingu]
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Member
Registered: 09/22/14
Posts: 186
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BZ, "Someone Who Can't See The Forest For The Trees" is someone who is too involved in detail to look at the situation as a whole. This might apply to you as you pick and choose a sentence here, another there, to make whatever, mischief, or point, you choose at the time, to question or to redirect a topic or discussion, while ignoring entirely the point the individual your are focused on at the moment is making. You're not relating you're obfuscating and under the circumstances your question and answer posts to me and to others, in my opinion, are really for the most part rendered to be seen as nonsense.
My point, put simply, was that I believe the project was way too ambitious for that particular neighborhood. And I have no doubt that that point was clearly stated in my posts--- I think you know this.
P.S. this is probably a much stronger response than you deserve from me, but I've been holding back for a long time when it comes to your posts. No hard feelings really. Carry on! Which I'm sure you will.
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#1496939 --- 03/23/17 12:55 PM
Re: Trinity Church Reuse
[Re: ruby2]
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Diamond Member
Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 36263
Loc: USA
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 This might apply to you as you pick and choose a sentence here, another there the reason I will 'quote' a sentence from other poster is so that person knows exactly what I am responding to I was only responding to your post that parking was the main issue I presented a possible solution to the parking I believe the project was way too ambitious for that particular neighborhood. the church leader wrote into the local newspaper stating that they looked at all the viable options that were available and that was the only that would work for them the building needs over $1 million in updates that the church can not afford the developer was willing to spend nearly $6 million on the project if this project was rejected because of parking then no other developer will come forward with any other projects or spend $6 million only to have the zoning board reject it without a developer the church will walk away from the building most likely hws will buy it for $1 and turn it into student housing or college administration offices the parking and traffic problems will be even worse then and the property will not see any money from taxes hopefully a better project will present itself before the church walks away from the building
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#1496968 --- 03/24/17 02:13 AM
Re: Trinity Church Reuse
[Re: pingu]
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Member
Registered: 09/22/14
Posts: 186
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BZ, I don't agree with your outlook on this property. I believe there's hope. I do think it needs some good marketing to promote it and point out its potential. You had what I thought was a good idea regarding parking for the larger project. I also offered a smaller project idea for buyer/renter lofts requiring a few on-site parking spaces.
I would hope there would be other ideas out there, projects that don't require extensive parking accommodations. A few high end lofts perhaps as I said, modern kitchens, large baths, Jacuzzis, and plenty of open space with moveable walls (on overhead tracks) so the owner/renter can create whatever they want within that open space.Â
Maybe a small heated pool for the tenants, steam room, gym. Oh, and in the cellar individual wine storage units.  Stocked by the seller as a perk!  Oh, and maybe a roof garden or greenhouse and solar panels if feasible. An area for sitting outside in the summer, read a book, have a glass of wine. Oh, I better stop here. I was just dreaming, so satisfying to think of the possibilities.
At any rate, the property needs promotion and selling. Open lofts with moveable walls reduces cost somewhat. Perhaps no pool. I'm sure there are many good ideas out there for that property. And buyers like doctors from GGH, HWS bigwigs, Cornell, etc. I know, BZ, all the brass from the tax exempts. Life is most definitely not fair.
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#1496980 --- 03/24/17 12:57 PM
Re: Trinity Church Reuse
[Re: ruby2]
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Diamond Member
Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 36263
Loc: USA
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as do we the neighbors who have concerns about the project can set up a fund raiser (go fund me...) to collect the money for the repairs that need to most immediate attention to help the church stay there for a longer period until a valid project comes forth the homes in that area have values around $500,000 each the neighbors should be able to come up with some money to help out the church in the short term the individual that started the musselman and now does the seneca7 running race could set up a fund raiser thru those events to gather money to help the church with repairs that need the most immediate attention he lives in that area You had what I thought was a good idea regarding parking for the larger project. I offered the parking idea as a suggestion becuase hws has acquired numerous homes that they tore down for their dorms and other buidlings wegmans tore down a number of homes in order to even have a place to build their store/parking in a residential neighborhood area I also offered a smaller project idea for buyer/renter lofts requiring a few on-site parking spaces. that may be a valid project but a developer looks at the numbers if the lofts do not cover the current cost for repairs, the costs to covert to lofts and the future carrying costs then the developer will move on to another profitable project A few high end lofts perhaps as I said, modern kitchens, large baths, Jacuzzis, and plenty of open space with moveable walls (on overhead tracks) so the owner/renter can create whatever they want within that open space. the rent on a few  high end lofts would need to be very high to cover all the current repairs (over $1 million),costs to change to lofts, operating costs, taxes, insurance, maintainence, repairs... would the renters be willing to pay $4,000 or more per month for a high end loft when they can buy a home for less money per month? it all comes down to the numbers when a developer has to put up his/her own money to finance the project
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#1504349 --- 09/01/17 03:08 PM
Re: Trinity Church Reuse
[Re: pingu]
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Member
Registered: 03/19/15
Posts: 67
Loc: NY
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#1511721 --- 01/01/18 02:46 PM
Re: Trinity Church Reuse
[Re: Tacitus]
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Diamond Member
Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 36263
Loc: USA
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There is at most parking for 60 cars, purchase two homes adjacent to the (trinity) parking lot on pulteny street tear them down and make more parking HWS did that with their new performance center and there is still not enough parking for that building HWS tore down many homes and a business just for the performance center and still there is not enough parking for largeer events when there are large golfing events in rochester people charge $1-$5 to allow parking in their driveway/yard when there is a larger event at trinity the overflow can park in neighboring driveways with permission if the parking is expanded at trinity then HWS could use the extra parking for when they have larger events at the performance center - charge $1 to park in the trinity parking lot if space is available set up a shuttle for parking downtown for the larger events at trinity but the promoter is saying there could be events with over 200 in attendance. And the Colleges have emphatically denied offering any access to their parking if there are 200 in attendance that does not mean there will be 200 cars to be parked there could be 2,3,4,5 people per car some people may walk to the location if they live in the area of geneva for some events HWS has their football stadium / sport center and there are only about 40 parking spots for both of those where do all the people park when HWS has a football game? at wegmans, at the plaza, at the businesses across the street, along all the streets within a mile of the football stadium on side streets - creating a serious hazard if emergency vehicles need to go down any of those narrow streets should HWS build a much larger parking area for when they have football, lacrosse, soccer games and there is a larger spillage of parked cars on city streets? HWS has overwhelmed south main street with the student parking and large amounts of people crossing a highly traveled street will HWS build a larger parking area to accomadate with the serious parking situation on south main street and lower the amount of people crossing the street? HWS has a very large open field to put a parking lot in to move the parking off south main and that will also keep people from crossing south main to get to their cars
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#1511909 --- 01/04/18 07:37 PM
Re: Trinity Church Reuse
[Re: Tacitus]
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Diamond Member
Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 36263
Loc: USA
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A conversion to apartments seems like a better fit. option 1 move forward with this project it will generate property taxes, water fees, sewer fees, sales taxes, jobs... option 2 HWS buys it takes it off the tax rolls turns it into a frat house
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#1511969 --- 01/05/18 09:52 PM
Re: Trinity Church Reuse
[Re: pingu]
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Member
Registered: 12/03/13
Posts: 88
Loc: Finger Lakes
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I'm having some trouble understanding exactly what the neighborhood opponents are arguing with regard to the proposed project "charging the neighborhood."
Although the building may not presently operate "24-7", the is a gathering venue with a lot of activity. Things may have slowed since its heyday, but nevertheless. It is currently occupied by a church, and the building has hosted and continues to host a wide array of events, including large religious services, community meetings, public events, art classes, craft shows, AA meetings, etc. How would the proposed changes dramatically alter the neighborhood?
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#1511978 --- 01/05/18 11:47 PM
Re: Trinity Church Reuse
[Re: Tacitus]
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Diamond Member
Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 36263
Loc: USA
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There are two issues: how do the congregants of Trinity continue to worship, and what to do with this property. They are NOT irrevocably linked, as the congregants could elect to join the other, growing, congregation at St. Peter's. would it be correct that parking at st. peters is limited? a more logical approach would be for the congregation of st. peters to join the trinity congregration and use the trinity for both of them. they will now both have ample parking st. peters building could be used as the new site for the developer instead of the trinity building homes near st. peters could be bought (torn down or moved) and a parking lot be made at that location trinity needs $1.5 million in repairs if st. peters sold for $2 million to the developer it would cover the repair costs at trinity st. peters does not need any repair so a $2 million sales price should be fair to the developer two problems solved would you agree? the neighbors on south main st may like that idea better
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#1512000 --- 01/06/18 01:23 PM
Re: Trinity Church Reuse
[Re: Tacitus]
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Diamond Member
Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 36263
Loc: USA
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Parking at St. Peter's is not an issue since most of the usage is on Sunday, not at random times throughout the week, Is it easier to move 60 people (tops) or over 300? if 300 attend on sunday with two per car then that would mean parking for 150 cars? how does that not impact the neighbors near st peters if all the parking is mostly on the street? they can access the parking in the lot off Geneva Street which is empty on Sunday. are you refering to the city parking lot? if so then that would mean there is not enough parking for st peters if a large gathering occurred at st peters on any other day besides sunday would that not have a large impact on the neighbhors in that area because the city parking lot would be largely utilized? I'm sure the neighbors on S. Main would be fine with an events center that limited its events to 60 people when trinity had a full congregation were the gatherings around 60 or far greater? the s main neighbors had little concern when the gatherings were far greater than 60 at trinity Is it easier to move 60 people (tops) or over 300? move? the building is not going to be moved the people attending the services could easily drive to the south main street trinity location if 60 more were added to st peters services then were would the additional 30-60 parking spaces come from? I'm sure the neighbors on S. Main would be fine with an events center that limited its events to 60 people if the project does not move forward it may likely turn into a frat house
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#1512033 --- 01/06/18 09:35 PM
Re: Trinity Church Reuse
[Re: Tacitus]
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Diamond Member
Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 36263
Loc: USA
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you're trying to compare church services at St. Peter's with 24 / 7 events center activity at Trinity. I'm sure the neighbors on S. Main would be fine with an events center that limited its events to 60 people it appears you want to restrict usage at trinity by the number of cars that can be parked in their on site parking lot - about 60 should that also apply to other establishments? HWS does not have enough on site parking for their larger football,lacrosse, soccer... games should their events be limited to the amount of on site parking they have available? HWS has overwhelmed the south main street parking area with their frat homes, college offices and dorms should they be limited by the amount of on site parking they provide? St. Peters lacks ample on site parking for 300 members should they be required to buy land and provide ample parking for their 300 members? if they fail to do so should they stop their events? it was written in the times that the attorney that opposes this idea has 3 apartment buildings on south main that all lack any on site parking should be allowed? the trinity situation is complex hopefully a compromise can be reached to preserve the structure
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#1512042 --- 01/06/18 10:18 PM
Re: Trinity Church Reuse
[Re: pingu]
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Member
Registered: 03/23/15
Posts: 380
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#1512044 --- 01/06/18 10:26 PM
Re: Trinity Church Reuse
[Re: Tacitus]
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Diamond Member
Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 36263
Loc: USA
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#1512057 --- 01/06/18 11:25 PM
Re: Trinity Church Reuse
[Re: Tacitus]
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Diamond Member
Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 36263
Loc: USA
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would require an egress/fire exit for each apartment on the exterior wall second story apartments would require a stairway to teh ground very expensive if the walls may approach a 2 foot thickness in some spots very unattractive all the stain glass windows would need to be removed and safety glass installed very expensive to have large windows custom made that size and have them installed the electrical, plummbing and drains could not be run inside the stone walls any drains in the floor would require a trench be cut into the floor heating and air conditioning is a challenge for stone walls wood frame structures are less of a challenge and less of an expense just a few items needing to be addressed with apartment conversion
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#1512180 --- 01/08/18 12:41 PM
Re: Trinity Church Reuse
[Re: Tacitus]
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Diamond Member
Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 36263
Loc: USA
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while I think you can preserve the outside of the building via an apartment conversion that has little impact on the neighborhood if it were converted to apartments 20 possible apartments? 10 smaller apartments (1 bedroom) with possibly 1 parking space needed 10 larger apartements(2 bedroom) with possibly 2 parking spaces needed total parking would be about 30 or more for tenants excluding visitors coming to see the tenants church may need around 40-60? their parking lot has exceeded the 60 spaces reduce the amount of apartments down to 10 or 15? the parking lot is still exceeding capacity
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#1515673 --- 06/15/18 02:55 PM
Re: Trinity Church Reuse
[Re: Tacitus]
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Diamond Member
Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 36263
Loc: USA
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1) You don't know what the taxes would be the current city assessment is over $2 million for that property if a developer spends a few million more dollars on improvements do you think the city will place the assessment at around only $50,000? the assessment will exceed $2 million after a large amount of money is spent on improvements the assessment will most likely double 2) Shouldn't rich properties pay their share
all properties should pay their fair share 3) Compare, if you can, 30 apartment dwellers following a normal daily routine to 200 event attendees arriving, or departing, within a small amount of time. will those living in the apartments be allowed to have friends, family, guests... come over to visit? HWS has large crowds
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#1515697 --- 06/16/18 12:21 PM
Re: Trinity Church Reuse
[Re: Tacitus]
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Diamond Member
Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 36263
Loc: USA
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Do you think any developer is going to put in a dime without a lucrative tax abatement agreement? the developer for this project has not mentioned any abatement terms Do you think all of the apartment dwellers will all have large parties beginning and ending at the same time? the point was thatthere would be more 'people traffic' than just those living there HWS does have large crowds, but they also have a lot of parking. parking overflows into neighboring streets for events at the HWS stadium the perfomance center lacks enough parking there is a lack of parking for students and staff during the school year Maybe this is the best place for the Popeye's Chicken - at least they could have a drive-thru window.  and how many customers would they need to serve daily to stay in business? a normal daily routine to 200 event attendees more than 200 per day?
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#1516074 --- 06/25/18 11:18 PM
Re: Trinity Church Reuse
[Re: Tacitus]
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Diamond Member
Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 36263
Loc: USA
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Ask the large and growing parish and where do all those people park? with a superb music program is it the building that makes their music program superb? to abandon their mission in downtown Geneva and move into the crumbling building does St. Peters need a new roof? are the gutters missing or falling off? allowing large amounts of rain water (due to missing gutters/downspouts) to fall near the foundation will eventually undermine the soil causing the foundation to fail and cracks will appear in the walls it would be rather expensive to repair the massive foundations that hold up the thick stone walls how many months do they plan to keep a large piece of cardboard on a broken window? with a dwindling, aging congregation so they can help all those impoverished souls on S. Main Street. you suggested they merge with St Peters the location on south main street has a larger parking area
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#1516502 --- 07/09/18 12:14 AM
Re: Trinity Church Reuse
[Re: Tacitus]
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Diamond Member
Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 36263
Loc: USA
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So it's up to the neighbors to offer an alternative to this scam? if they have a better option all they need to do is bring it forward If my home were in disrepair, I wouldn't ask my neighbors to fund the repairs, so why is this different? is the church asking for the neighbors to pay for the repairs? Quit using HWS as the boogeyman in an issue that does;t involve this property. you said financing may be a problem does hws not have a sizable endowment where they could buy the property for only a $1 and then turn it into student housing? has hws not created traffic and parking problems on south main street over the past 15 years? where were the same neighbors then?
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#1516883 --- 07/15/18 02:16 PM
Re: Trinity Church Reuse
[Re: Tacitus]
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Diamond Member
Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 36263
Loc: USA
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They don't need to have a better option if the neighbors do not have a better plan are they in a position to complain? The church is asking the neighbors to accept a significant damage to their neighborhood with no compensation. hws has done far more damage to that neighborhood than one single project will ever do will jobs be created? will property taxes now be paid? will school taxes now be paid? will higher water/sewer revenue be generated? will more sales taxes be collected? will the structure be saved? etc etc etc Maybe they don't need the housing, until all hws students reside inside the campus perimeter then hws will always need off campus student housing are you suggesting that the off campus hws student housing creates little problems for any of the neighors near the units? the expense of bringing it up to code? how much did hws just spend on their performance center? was it $25 million? It's not as if they have infinite funds. their students pay tuition until they run out of students and tuition they have adequate funds When the endowment is reduced, hws will just start a fund drive to get more money from past graduates to increase the endowment
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#1525717 --- 03/13/19 01:34 AM
Re: Trinity Church legal win
[Re: pingu]
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Diamond Member
Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 36263
Loc: USA
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much better than finding a reuse for the church. Where were they when residential properties were bought and taken off the tax rolls? Thinking Outside the Box believe the new city manager is proposing spending around $4 million for 'improvements'(elevator) to the current city hall believe the church needs about $1 million in repairs the city should just buy the church for $250,000, make the $1 million in repairs and then move all city hall operations to the church (no elevator needed at the church) the city (taxpayers) would save about $2 million or more by not making an additonal $4 million in upgrades (elevator) to the current city hall the city could sell the current city hall for $750,000 or even more the church has enough parking for the needs of city hall the neighbors in the south main street area should not have a reason to resist that idea
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#1526504 --- 03/22/19 06:15 PM
Re: Trinity Church legal win
[Re: Tacitus]
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Diamond Member
Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 36263
Loc: USA
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The huge assumptions here are that 1) a buyer could be found for City Hall that would not need to comply with ADA regulations, a buyer purchased the Dove block which is in far worse shape than city hall 2) that Trinity is fully compliant with ADA regulations (parking is 1 floor down from the main level). they (Trinity church members) have chosen the current project to move forward with as it addresses those needs with funding from their new partners This also assumes that the $1 million in repairs for Trinity would cover all of the changes required to suit the City's needs, which is probably not the case either. the city would have $3 million (from the $4 million) to use for their needs the city main needs are office space should not cost $3 million to put up 'cubicle walls'
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#1526508 --- 03/22/19 06:34 PM
Re: Trinity Church legal win
[Re: Tacitus]
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Diamond Member
Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 36263
Loc: USA
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The huge assumptions here what options are the neighbors proposing? believe the city (taxpayers) have paid out about $40,000 so far in attorney fees for this situation? will that be coming out of the new city managers pay? if the current project is rejected what will most likely happen to the property? the church members abandon the structure (lack of funds)? the city takes possession of it for code violations not being corrected? the city puts it up for auction? HWS buys it for $1? HWS turns it into student housing or a staff building? the neighbors buy it at auction and move forward in a different direction? the city takes possesssion of it with emminent domain for economic development reasons? the city acquires the surrounding homes with eminent domain - so the homes can be torn down to make room for development of the church structure - for more parking? the city puts out an RFP for developers? the property is turn into resort style operation - creating jobs - taxes - income for the city if it does not sell at auction then the city (taxpayers) pay to tear down the church structure ($100,000 or more) and the vacant lot is sold to a neighbor for $1000?
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