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#1489094 --- 08/31/16 08:12 PM 19 spills in 32 years: Ithaca firm details U.S. Salt discharges into Seneca Lake; Crestwood downplays findings
all seeing eye Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/05/07
Posts: 1976
Loc: Seneca Lake
19 Spills in 32 Years; Crestwood Downplays Findings

"“Many spills were never cleaned up to state standards, even though they caused extensive petroleum contamination, resulted in huge brine discharges of up to 470,000 gallons, polluted groundwater or directly impacted Seneca Lake,” Hang said. “Citizens who want to preserve Seneca Lake will be shocked to learn about massive pollution spills reported over the course of four decades at the giant salt mine and gas storage facility in Reading. This information documents that New York authorities are unable to prevent or clean up toxic spills that have polluted one of the most famous lakes in the world.”

Hang listed information on each of 19 spills or discharges from U.S. Salt, International Salt and Akzo Salt from 1974 to 2016. He wrote that the DEC has a responsibility and obligation through the federal Clean Water Act to establish and implement a policy which protects existing water quality from being degraded.

“Given that mandate and other legal requirements to safeguard New York’s water quality, I respectfully request that you deny hydrocarbon storage permit applications pursuant to the New York State Oil, Gas and Solution Mining Law and related state approvals required for methane and LPG facilities to be built and operated in Reading by Arlington Storage Co. LLC, Crestwood Equity Partners LP, Stagecoach Gas Services LLC, Finger Lakes LPG Gas Storage LLC or other inter-related corporate entities,” he said."
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#1489098 --- 08/31/16 08:46 PM Re: 19 spills in 32 years: Ithaca firm details U.S. Salt discharges into Seneca Lake; Crestwood downplays findings [Re: all seeing eye]
scwoodchuck Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/22/14
Posts: 1275
Loc: LOST IN SPACE
grin

Lies, Damned Lies, and Walter Hang's Statistics - Energy In Depth

http://energyindepth.org/national/lies-damned-lies-and-walter-hangs-statistics/
Dec 18, 2009 ... As president of the Ithaca, N.Y.-based Toxics Targeting, Inc., Mr. Hang's entire business depends on being able to access and track all sorts of ...
Now the other side of the story
270 oil and natural gas spills – a claim, remember, that Mr. Hang makes in support of his larger argument that DEC cannot do, and indeed has not done, an “adequate” job of regulating the exploration and production of oil and natural gas in the state of New York.

Now let’s compare that assertion with the actual facts:

•Total number of spills over past 30 years, across entire state, related to oil and natural gas exploration & production: 161 (not 270)
•Total number of spills documented in DEC’s database over the past 30 years: 354,615
•Percentage of total spills tied to oil or natural gas exploration: 0.045% (45 thousandths of one percent)
•Number of incidental spills reported over same period at gas stations (and in no way related to oil or gas exploration): 30,122

Catch all that? The process of exploring for, and eventually producing, oil and natural gas in New Yorkover the past three decades is responsible for one-forty-thousandth of one percent (!) of the total spillage recorded over that time
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#1489100 --- 08/31/16 08:50 PM Re: 19 spills in 32 years: Ithaca firm details U.S. Salt discharges into Seneca Lake; Crestwood downplays findings [Re: all seeing eye]
scwoodchuck Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/22/14
Posts: 1275
Loc: LOST IN SPACE
grin
Web Results

Walter Hang: How Fractivists Twist the Truth Into Knots for Pay

http://naturalgasnow.org/walter-hang-fractivists-twist-truth/
Mar 30, 2016 ... Walter Hang, often described as an "activist," is, in fact, on the Rockefeller payroll ... Shepstone Management Company, Inc. ... in Toxics Targeting's Compilation of 114 Pipeline Explosions, Fires, Ruptures and Toxic Releases.
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May I suggest you go back to where you got your education and ask for a refund.

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#1489104 --- 08/31/16 09:43 PM Re: 19 spills in 32 years: Ithaca firm details U.S. Salt discharges into Seneca Lake; Crestwood downplays findings [Re: scwoodchuck]
all seeing eye Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/05/07
Posts: 1976
Loc: Seneca Lake
Chuck, come on, this is DEC data.

Are you going to start arguing that DEC is lying???

Here is the link to the compilation of data from the DEC:

http://www.toxicstargeting.com/MarcellusShale/documents/2016-08-25/Reading-NY-spill-compilation



Edited by all seeing eye (08/31/16 09:44 PM)
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I wonder if clouds ever look down on us and say "Hey look, that one is shaped like an idiot."

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#1489106 --- 08/31/16 10:18 PM Re: 19 spills in 32 years: Ithaca firm details U.S. Salt discharges into Seneca Lake; Crestwood downplays findings [Re: scwoodchuck]
Timbo Offline
Silver Member

Registered: 07/18/12
Posts: 12822
Loc: CNY
Originally Posted By: scwoodchuck
grin

Lies, Damned Lies, and Walter Hang's Statistics - Energy In Depth

http://energyindepth.org/national/lies-damned-lies-and-walter-hangs-statistics/
Dec 18, 2009 ... As president of the Ithaca, N.Y.-based Toxics Targeting, Inc., Mr. Hang's entire business depends on being able to access and track all sorts of ...
Now the other side of the story
270 oil and natural gas spills – a claim, remember, that Mr. Hang makes in support of his larger argument that DEC cannot do, and indeed has not done, an “adequate” job of regulating the exploration and production of oil and natural gas in the state of New York.

Now let’s compare that assertion with the actual facts:

•Total number of spills over past 30 years, across entire state, related to oil and natural gas exploration & production: 161 (not 270)
•Total number of spills documented in DEC’s database over the past 30 years: 354,615
•Percentage of total spills tied to oil or natural gas exploration: 0.045% (45 thousandths of one percent)
•Number of incidental spills reported over same period at gas stations (and in no way related to oil or gas exploration): 30,122

Catch all that? The process of exploring for, and eventually producing, oil and natural gas in New Yorkover the past three decades is responsible for one-forty-thousandth of one percent (!) of the total spillage recorded over that time

Speaking of Lies and Damned Lies...


Several Disturbing Facts About John Krohn and "Energy In Depth (EID)".

Revealed: Former Energy in Depth Spokesman John Krohn Now at EIA Promoting Fracking:

For those familiar with U.S. Energy Information Administration’s (EIA) work, objectivity and commitment to fact based on statistics come to mind. Yet as Mark Twain once put it, “There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics.”

That’s where John Krohn comes into play. A former spokesman for the gas industry front group Energy in Depth (EID), Krohn now works on the Core Team for EIA’s “Today in Energy!“


Story:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/steve-horn/revealed-former-energy-in_b_5379935.html
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#1489110 --- 09/01/16 06:40 AM Re: 19 spills in 32 years: Ithaca firm details U.S. Salt discharges into Seneca Lake; Crestwood downplays findings [Re: Timbo]
scwoodchuck Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/22/14
Posts: 1275
Loc: LOST IN SPACE
But don't you criticize me when I use huffington post as a source ? That's what I like about timbo, his memory is about 5 minutes. grin
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#1489114 --- 09/01/16 07:38 AM Re: 19 spills in 32 years: Ithaca firm details U.S. Salt discharges into Seneca Lake; Crestwood downplays findings [Re: scwoodchuck]
Timbo Offline
Silver Member

Registered: 07/18/12
Posts: 12822
Loc: CNY
Originally Posted By: scwoodchuck
But don't you criticize me when I use huffington post as a source ? That's what I like about timbo, his memory is about 5 minutes.

And that's what we find so very amusing about you... your immutable proclivity for carrying out ad hominem attacks as a substitute for your obligation to present verifiable evidence. grin

You'll notice that I didn't criticize you... I provided actual FACTS as reported on by HuffPo. Should I however, choose to poke holes in your weak argument, I could always draw attention to your inability to differentiate between the two conspicuously dissimilar concepts. whistle
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Everyone's entitled to their own opinions, but not their own facts.

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#1489124 --- 09/01/16 10:41 AM Re: 19 spills in 32 years: Ithaca firm details U.S. Salt discharges into Seneca Lake; Crestwood downplays findings [Re: Timbo]
secure white guy Offline
Member

Registered: 02/04/13
Posts: 455
Loc: blue yoga mat
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: scwoodchuck
But don't you criticize me when I use huffington post as a source ? That's what I like about timbo, his memory is about 5 minutes.

And that's what we find so very amusing about you... your immutable proclivity for carrying out ad hominem attacks as a substitute for your obligation to present verifiable evidence. grin

You'll notice that I didn't criticize you... I provided actual FACTS as reported on by HuffPo. Should I however, choose to poke holes in your weak argument, I could always draw attention to your inability to differentiate between the two conspicuously dissimilar concepts. whistle

dat ___ tho!


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#1489125 --- 09/01/16 12:05 PM Re: 19 spills in 32 years: Ithaca firm details U.S. Salt discharges into Seneca Lake; Crestwood downplays findings [Re: Timbo]
Hello_Governer Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/03/11
Posts: 1498
Loc: New York, Seneca
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: scwoodchuck
But don't you criticize me when I use huffington post as a source ? That's what I like about timbo, his memory is about 5 minutes.

And that's what we find so very amusing about you... your immutable proclivity for carrying out ad hominem attacks as a substitute for your obligation to present verifiable evidence. grin

You'll notice that I didn't criticize you... I provided actual FACTS as reported on by HuffPo. Should I however, choose to poke holes in your weak argument, I could always draw attention to your inability to differentiate between the two conspicuously dissimilar concepts. whistle
You have totally lost it, because all you do is criticize, everyone and everything.
That aside, did anyone pick up on the fact that methane and salt are not TOXIC in the first place. That word ( toxic ) gets used a lot, makes me wonder if people know what it means. How would you clean up a natural gas spill when it vaporizes and dissipates into the atmosphere ? Heaven forbid that anyone would ingest a little salt. crazy

quote from timbo just today "And the Winner of today's Inane-Mashup-of-Reasoning competition, is none other than... grin "
and yesterday "Stay in school, boys and girls, or this could be YOU. shocked sick "
Maybe timbo should have taken his own advice. just sayin crazy


Edited by Hello_Governer (09/01/16 12:16 PM)
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Do we really have to make everything IDIOT PROOF ?

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#1489143 --- 09/02/16 09:14 AM Re: 19 spills in 32 years: Ithaca firm details U.S. Salt discharges into Seneca Lake; Crestwood downplays findings [Re: Hello_Governer]
Timbo Offline
Silver Member

Registered: 07/18/12
Posts: 12822
Loc: CNY

"You have totally lost it, because all you do is criticize, everyone and everything."

First of all, that's ridiculous, and when I DO, it's because it likely warrants criticism (just as that statement clearly does). You simply can't stand being consistently on the wrong side of the FACTS.

Additionally, I make every effort to provide credible supporting evidence to substantiate my reasons for doing so. Something that in my recollections, cannot also be said of your posts.

----------

"That aside, did anyone pick up on the fact that methane and salt are not TOXIC in the first place.[?] That word ( toxic ) gets used a lot, makes me wonder if people know what it means."

If you were paying attention, you'd know that I already made that precise point several weeks ago. You'd also know that just because something is non-toxic, doesn't mean it's neither highly poisonous nor highly dangerous to to virtually ALL mammals, amphibians, birds, insects and microorganisms, as well as entire ecosystems.

Makes me wonder if you know what THAT means. smirk

----------

"How would you clean up a natural gas spill when it vaporizes and dissipates into the atmosphere?"

Do some homework, ferchrissake: http://www.catf.us/resources/factsheets/files/LDAR_Fact_Sheet.pdf

----------

"Heaven forbid that anyone would ingest a little salt."

A perfect example of a ridicule-worthy question.

Heaven forbid that you should take the time to learn something about that which you spew invectives about. Especially considering how extremely disruptive salts can be to living organisms in even the smallest amounts.


Always a pleasure "chatting" with you.
grin

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Everyone's entitled to their own opinions, but not their own facts.

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#1489164 --- 09/02/16 02:38 PM Re: 19 spills in 32 years: Ithaca firm details U.S. Salt discharges into Seneca Lake; Crestwood downplays findings [Re: Timbo]
Hello_Governer Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/03/11
Posts: 1498
Loc: New York, Seneca
"How would you clean up a natural gas spill when it vaporizes and dissipates into the atmosphere?"

quote timbo "Do some homework, ferchrissake: http://www.catf.us/resources/factsheets/files/LDAR_Fact_Sheet.pdf "

timbo did you even read any of this ? Hang said they failed to clean up methane gas spills not that they failed to fix leaks. So again I ask, if natural gas should leak how would you clean it up since it is a gas, same as air?
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Do we really have to make everything IDIOT PROOF ?

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#1489165 --- 09/02/16 03:20 PM Re: 19 spills in 32 years: Ithaca firm details U.S. Salt discharges into Seneca Lake; Crestwood downplays findings [Re: all seeing eye]
scwoodchuck Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/22/14
Posts: 1275
Loc: LOST IN SPACE
Originally Posted By: all seeing eye
Chuck, come on, this is DEC data.

Are you going to start arguing that DEC is lying???

Here is the link to the compilation of data from the DEC:

http://www.toxicstargeting.com/MarcellusShale/documents/2016-08-25/Reading-NY-spill-compilation

Where in my post does it say that I WROTE IT ? Here it is again. All I did was give the gas company equal time to express their opinion of Hang and the newspaper article. Explain how the DEC data, about the salt mine operations, has anything to do with a totally different company storing natural gas.

Web Results

Walter Hang: How Fractivists Twist the Truth Into Knots for Pay

http://naturalgasnow.org/walter-hang-fractivists-twist-truth/
Mar 30, 2016 ... Walter Hang, often described as an "activist," is, in fact, on the Rockefeller payroll ... Shepstone Management Company, Inc. ... in Toxics Targeting's Compilation of 114 Pipeline Explosions, Fires, Ruptures and Toxic Releases.
_________________________
May I suggest you go back to where you got your education and ask for a refund.

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#1489170 --- 09/02/16 04:45 PM Re: 19 spills in 32 years: Ithaca firm details U.S. Salt discharges into Seneca Lake; Crestwood downplays findings [Re: scwoodchuck]
Hello_Governer Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/03/11
Posts: 1498
Loc: New York, Seneca
That DEC data is about equipment on the surface and has nothing to do with the salt cavern integrity. Since natural gas is not a liquid it can't flow down hill to the lake, it would vaporize and go up into the air. But what I really want to know is where do I apply for an anti-gas activist job that pays $139,000. grin
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Do we really have to make everything IDIOT PROOF ?

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#1489187 --- 09/03/16 03:12 AM Re: 19 spills in 32 years: Ithaca firm details U.S. Salt discharges into Seneca Lake; Crestwood downplays findings [Re: Hello_Governer]
Timbo Offline
Silver Member

Registered: 07/18/12
Posts: 12822
Loc: CNY
Originally Posted By: Hello_Governer
timbo did you even read any of this ? Hang said they failed to clean up methane gas spills not that they failed to fix leaks. So again I ask, if natural gas should leak how would you clean it up since it is a gas, same as air?

To what end??? It's completely irrelevant to the whole point of the thread, which ultimately has to do with the well-established dangers to the environment and all living organisms.

Besides... such evasive, thickheaded inquiries on your part, clearly suggest that I'm not the one in need of engaging in concerted personal research on this subject.
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Everyone's entitled to their own opinions, but not their own facts.

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#1489188 --- 09/03/16 03:21 AM Re: 19 spills in 32 years: Ithaca firm details U.S. Salt discharges into Seneca Lake; Crestwood downplays findings [Re: Hello_Governer]
Timbo Offline
Silver Member

Registered: 07/18/12
Posts: 12822
Loc: CNY
Originally Posted By: Hello_Governer
That DEC data is about equipment on the surface and has nothing to do with the salt cavern integrity. Since natural gas is not a liquid it can't flow down hill to the lake, it would vaporize and go up into the air.

A statement which reveals an abject lack of knowledge of the common hydrogeological forces at play in such matrices.
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Everyone's entitled to their own opinions, but not their own facts.

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#1489189 --- 09/03/16 03:42 AM Re: 19 spills in 32 years: Ithaca firm details U.S. Salt discharges into Seneca Lake; Crestwood downplays findings [Re: scwoodchuck]
Timbo Offline
Silver Member

Registered: 07/18/12
Posts: 12822
Loc: CNY

You're kidding right???

You're actually going to use an editorial by a Paid Energy Industry Shill in a clumsy attempt to discredit highly respected President Walter Hang of Toxics Targeting, a Venture Capital Environmental Database Firm???

I'll say one thing for you... you've sure got some gall.

Leaked EPA Documents Expose Decades-Old Effort to Hide Dangers of Natural Gas Extraction:
http://www.toxicstargeting.com/news/authors/walter-hang
http://www.democracynow.org/appearances/walter_hang
http://outofboundsradioshow.com/shows/wa...xics-targeting/
http://events.cornell.edu/event/fascinat..._new_york_state
http://ithacavoice.com/2015/01/ithacas-walter-hang-next-battle-fracking-fight-ithacast/
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Everyone's entitled to their own opinions, but not their own facts.

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#1489193 --- 09/03/16 08:43 AM Re: 19 spills in 32 years: Ithaca firm details U.S. Salt discharges into Seneca Lake; Crestwood downplays findings [Re: Timbo]
scwoodchuck Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/22/14
Posts: 1275
Loc: LOST IN SPACE
Why not, you use the huffington post, don't you grin Besides Hang is a paid anti-gas activist, isn't he ?

Originally Posted By: Timbo

You're kidding right???

You're actually going to use an editorial by a Paid Energy Industry Shill in a clumsy attempt to discredit highly respected President Walter Hang of Toxics Targeting, a Venture Capital Environmental Database Firm???

I'll say one thing for you... you've sure got some gall.

Leaked EPA Documents Expose Decades-Old Effort to Hide Dangers of Natural Gas Extraction:
http://www.toxicstargeting.com/news/authors/walter-hang
http://www.democracynow.org/appearances/walter_hang
http://outofboundsradioshow.com/shows/wa...xics-targeting/
http://events.cornell.edu/event/fascinat..._new_york_state
http://ithacavoice.com/2015/01/ithacas-walter-hang-next-battle-fracking-fight-ithacast/


Edited by scwoodchuck (09/03/16 08:44 AM)
_________________________
May I suggest you go back to where you got your education and ask for a refund.

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#1489194 --- 09/03/16 08:51 AM Re: 19 spills in 32 years: Ithaca firm details U.S. Salt discharges into Seneca Lake; Crestwood downplays findings [Re: Timbo]
scwoodchuck Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/22/14
Posts: 1275
Loc: LOST IN SPACE
timbo, keep in mind that I DID NOT WRITE THIS, THIS IS SOMEONE ELSES OPINION. Again I remind you that you know nothing of my opinions, I just present the other side of the debate. If I didn't you'd be talking to yourself at 3:45 am. crazy

The American Environmental Movement - Environmentalism is fascism

http://ecofascism.com/review38.html
The green billionaires oversee America's environmental movement which in turn steers major ..... Vice-President Gore secured her appointment as EPA Administrator in 1993. ..... SMF gave $600,000 to Toxics Targeting – an ENGO run by high-profile New York anti-fracking activist Walter Hang who boasts: “We never reveal

maybe you should ask Hang for a percentage grin


Edited by scwoodchuck (09/03/16 08:55 AM)
_________________________
May I suggest you go back to where you got your education and ask for a refund.

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#1489195 --- 09/03/16 09:17 AM Re: 19 spills in 32 years: Ithaca firm details U.S. Salt discharges into Seneca Lake; Crestwood downplays findings [Re: scwoodchuck]
Timbo Offline
Silver Member

Registered: 07/18/12
Posts: 12822
Loc: CNY
Originally Posted By: scwoodchuck
Why not, you use the huffington post, don't you grin Besides Hang is a paid anti-gas activist, isn't he ?

Originally Posted By: Timbo

You're kidding right???

You're actually going to use an editorial by a Paid Energy Industry Shill in a clumsy attempt to discredit highly respected President Walter Hang of Toxics Targeting, a Venture Capital Environmental Database Firm???

I'll say one thing for you... you've sure got some gall.

Leaked EPA Documents Expose Decades-Old Effort to Hide Dangers of Natural Gas Extraction:
http://www.toxicstargeting.com/news/authors/walter-hang
http://www.democracynow.org/appearances/walter_hang
http://outofboundsradioshow.com/shows/wa...xics-targeting/
http://events.cornell.edu/event/fascinat..._new_york_state
http://ithacavoice.com/2015/01/ithacas-walter-hang-next-battle-fracking-fight-ithacast/

Can't legitimately criticize the content, so instead you stoop to assailing the conveyance OF the facts.

The classic earmark of every disreputable argument.

How very "academic" of you.
crazy crazy crazy
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#1489196 --- 09/03/16 09:27 AM Re: 19 spills in 32 years: Ithaca firm details U.S. Salt discharges into Seneca Lake; Crestwood downplays findings [Re: scwoodchuck]
Timbo Offline
Silver Member

Registered: 07/18/12
Posts: 12822
Loc: CNY
Originally Posted By: scwoodchuck
timbo, keep in mind that I DID NOT WRITE THIS, THIS IS SOMEONE ELSES OPINION.

No, instead you chose to repost it because you disagree with it. crazy

YOUR opinions are not only demonstrably uninformed, they are unreservedly and factually incorrect, but they are willfully deceitful, to boot, as clearly exhibited in your assertions of the hard sciences relating to environmentalism.

The term "outhouse hack" comes immediately to mind
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