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#1487935 --- 08/08/16 09:26 PM Crestwood compromises on LPG
newsman38 Offline
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Registered: 03/21/01
Posts: 4873
Loc: Fourth Estate
Crestwood to reduce Seneca Lake gas storage plan

Crestwood Midstream said Monday it is making voluntary concessions in its proposal to store propane in salt caverns in the Schuyler County Town of Reading along Seneca Lake.

That project has been the subject of protests by residents and environmentalists concerned about the potential negative impact on the quality of water in the lake and the impact on tourism.

A letter dated Monday from the Albany law firm DLA Piper to the state Department of Environmental Conservation, outlined how the project would be reduced:

Reduce storage capacity from 2.1 million barrels to 1.5 million.
Store only propane in the salt caverns, instead of propane and butane.

Ship propane in and out only by pipeline, removing both railroad and trucking options.
Eliminate two of three proposed brine ponds and include only one small pond west of state Route 14.

"The changes described below will reduce the scale and environmental impacts (potential, actual and perceived) of the project, responding meaningfully to the concerns of those participating in the issues conference and by stakeholders outside of the DEC proceedings, and will result in further avoidance or mitigation of the impacts," the company said in its letter to DEC.

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#1488018 --- 08/09/16 08:01 PM Re: Crestwood compromises on LPG [Re: newsman38]
all seeing eye Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/05/07
Posts: 2006
Loc: Seneca Lake
Unfortunately, the concessions, while eliminating truck and train traffic and visual impacts, among other things, do not address the primary concern of outside experts.

The caverns are simply not safe to use to store LPG gas under pressure.
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#1488042 --- 08/10/16 06:47 AM Re: Crestwood compromises on LPG [Re: newsman38]
BigRed Offline
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Registered: 05/08/03
Posts: 218
Loc: ny
...Except for it having already been stored there for decades

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#1488067 --- 08/10/16 11:37 AM Re: Crestwood compromises on LPG [Re: BigRed]
Timbo Offline
Silver Member

Registered: 07/18/12
Posts: 13450
Loc: CNY

Past history is NOT an indicator of future performance.
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#1488105 --- 08/10/16 04:04 PM Re: Crestwood compromises on LPG [Re: BigRed]
all seeing eye Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/05/07
Posts: 2006
Loc: Seneca Lake
Yes and when it was stored there the salt in the lake spiked:

From 1964 to 1984, TEPPCO stored LPG in a cavern deep in the salt bed. But in 1982 it obtained a DEC permit to dig a new cavern nearby in Genesee shale, which is much closer to ground level and far removed from the salt bed. The company lined the new cavern and transferred its LPG storage activities there, abandoning the old salt cavern. It has been storing LPG in the new cavity since the 1980s. In response to a Freedom of Information request from DCBureau.org, the DEC said it had no records to shed light on why TEPPCO spent the time and money to move its LPG storage activities out of the salt bed.

https://dcbureau.org/2015020610196/natur...king-water.html

TEPPCO had a reason to spend millions of dollars to build new cavern and abandon the salt cavern next to the lake. Maybe it wasn't as safe as some want to believe.
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#1488109 --- 08/10/16 10:16 PM Re: Crestwood compromises on LPG [Re: all seeing eye]
scwoodchuck Offline
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Registered: 05/22/14
Posts: 1461
Loc: LOST IN SPACE
Crestwood stored gas for any company who paid them, they just rented storage space. Now Con-ED will be the only company storing gas there and the pipeline already goes to New York City. DCBureau.org, is just a rogue newspaper reporter, hardly credible. The rise in salinity of the lake was because they were allowed to dump brine into the lake at that time. Do some REAL research, but stay away from the activists BS grin
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#1488277 --- 08/14/16 01:16 PM Re: Crestwood compromises on LPG [Re: scwoodchuck]
Timbo Offline
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Registered: 07/18/12
Posts: 13450
Loc: CNY

"Between 1965 and 1970, chloride jumped to more than 180 mg/l. Since 1970 the chloride concentration has gradually fallen off to about 120 mg/l.

That four-decade decline occurred DESPITE a sharp rise in road deicing and legal chloride dumping by the two salt operations near Watkins Glen: U.S. Salt and Cargill. The DEC has issued permits that allow both operations to dump specified daily limits of chloride into the lake."


https://dcbureau.org/2015020610196/natur...king-water.html
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#1488278 --- 08/14/16 01:21 PM Re: Crestwood compromises on LPG [Re: scwoodchuck]
Timbo Offline
Silver Member

Registered: 07/18/12
Posts: 13450
Loc: CNY
Originally Posted By: scwoodchuck
DCBureau.org, is just a rogue newspaper reporter, hardly credible.

They only REPORTED Tom Myers, PhD. Research:

Do you you know who IS credible??? Tom Myers, PhD:
http://water.nv.gov/hearings/past/springetal/browseabledocs/exhibits%5CCTGR%20Exhibits/CTGR_EXH_006%20Statement%20of%20Qualifications%20of%20Tom%20Myers,%20Ph.D..PDF

Here's his report:
https://www.scribd.com/document/254829433/Seneca-Lake-Hydrology-Report
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#1489180 --- 09/02/16 08:04 PM Re: Crestwood compromises on LPG [Re: Timbo]
Hello_Governer Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/03/11
Posts: 1563
Loc: New York, Seneca
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: scwoodchuck
DCBureau.org, is just a rogue newspaper reporter, hardly credible.

They only REPORTED Tom Myers, PhD. Research:

Do you you know who IS credible??? Tom Myers, PhD:
http://water.nv.gov/hearings/past/springetal/browseabledocs/exhibits%5CCTGR%20Exhibits/CTGR_EXH_006%20Statement%20of%20Qualifications%20of%20Tom%20Myers,%20Ph.D..PDF

Here's his report:
https://www.scribd.com/document/254829433/Seneca-Lake-Hydrology-Report
I like this Myers guy, he uses the words, "in my opinion" and " LIKELY " a lot. He also said that a permit should not be issued until a peer reviewed study is produced by Crestwood. Which tells me there is no peer review of his OPINION. Thanks for posting this by the way because most of it is already available in Finger Lakes Institutes report on Seneca Lake. Could you explain why some of the sources for this report were blacked out ? just sayin grin

almost forgot, how come there are so many BLANK pages ?



Edited by Hello_Governer (09/02/16 08:06 PM)
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#1489182 --- 09/02/16 08:49 PM Re: Crestwood compromises on LPG [Re: Timbo]
Hello_Governer Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/03/11
Posts: 1563
Loc: New York, Seneca
This was just TTTOOOOOOOOO easy. Why don't you read up on Tom grin

Errors in Myers' Marcellus Shale Groundwater Paper from Start to ...

http://energyindepth.org/marcellus/error...tart-to-finish/
May 13, 2012 ... Don Siegel, PhD ... realities governing the hydrodynamic flow of fluids underground can't be as Dr. Tom Myers, the report's author, suggests.

this is the best part QUOTE ;Conclusion

More than anything else, the public needs to know that a mathematical model of groundwater flow, such as the one prepared by Myers, constitutes only a representation of reality—it is not reality itself. Before any math model can be built, a scientifically plausible conceptual model needs to be developed.

As it relates to this particular paper, Myers has developed an implausible model that predictably leads to implausible, and in my judgment, completely wrong results — from simple first principles of geologic and hydrologic understanding, let alone acceptable model development.

AND a comment from someone who read this, "This farce of Dr. Myers is simply the latest in the long list of science fiction perpetrated on the populace from non-experts posing as authorities and funded by political rather than objective scientific societies"

grin


Edited by Hello_Governer (09/02/16 08:51 PM)
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#1489186 --- 09/03/16 02:44 AM Re: Crestwood compromises on LPG [Re: Hello_Governer]
Timbo Offline
Silver Member

Registered: 07/18/12
Posts: 13450
Loc: CNY
Simply Brilliant. Why don't YOU read up on the process of scientific discovery? crazy

Do you actually hope to persuade people to buy into your speculative theory of scientific/academic malfeasance after posting an editorial report FUNDED By the VERY Arm of the Energy Industry Which Stands to PROFIT From Doing So??? You're out of your ever-loving' mind, my friend. It's no different than publishing papers on evolution which have been funded by creationists. The National Ground Water Association has the distinct advantage of being an independent, non-profit organization comprised primarily of US and international groundwater scientists, engineers and professionals. It is NOT funded by the profit motives of the energy industry.

If there ever comes a day that you should be in possession of actual evidence of Myers report having been somehow 'tainted', then offer this evidence for review and possible investigation (should it be warranted). Siegel is equally (if not more) guilty of making what he describes as Myers' "mistaken assumptions". Most notably in cases where Myers does not specify certain particulars that may or may NOT be contextually relevant.

Until such time that Crestwood FINALLY gets around to realizing a peer reviewed, published study of it's own, Myers' report remains the best science covering the subject, to date (limitations included).

You have NOTHING but innuendo, and not a shred of credible evidence to back up your categorically specious and utterly UNscientific speculations.
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#1489200 --- 09/03/16 09:58 AM Re: Crestwood compromises on LPG [Re: Hello_Governer]
Timbo Offline
Silver Member

Registered: 07/18/12
Posts: 13450
Loc: CNY

"I like this Myers guy, he uses the words, 'in my opinion' and 'LIKELY' a lot."

As do I. Unlike you, HE understands the importance of applying academic standards to scientific arguments. And also unlike you, he is eminently credentialed on the subject. whistle

"He also said that a permit should not be issued until a peer reviewed study is produced by Crestwood." *

*(see above).
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#1489206 --- 09/03/16 10:59 AM Re: Crestwood compromises on LPG [Re: Timbo]
scwoodchuck Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/22/14
Posts: 1461
Loc: LOST IN SPACE
Here is what one of his fellow scientists had to say,

" I have previously published the explanation of these effects in great detail and presented at EPA and IOGANY. No reservoir simulation with realistic geologic and reservoir properties could reproduce Dr. Myers’s fiction. Dr. Myers work does not even deserve Media attention. He obviously has no basic understanding of fluid flow in a hydrocarbon system under pressure flowing to a wellbore. End of Story!" grin

another said, " Thanks for your comments Dr. Siegel. This stuff of Myers is simply a regurgitation of the scurrilous work he did for NRDC in 2009 comments to the SGEIS. In addition to the points you make, his other major flaws are twofold. "
So Myers is paid by an environmental group. grin
You should have read the Gov's entire post, but you never read anything in it's entirety grin

To anyone else out there, this is very interesting and it's from a professor at SYRACUSE. Also read the comments, at the end, from other experts.


Edited by scwoodchuck (09/03/16 11:25 AM)
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#1489210 --- 09/03/16 12:06 PM Re: Crestwood compromises on LPG [Re: scwoodchuck]
all seeing eye Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/05/07
Posts: 2006
Loc: Seneca Lake
Dr. Siegel is hardly unbiased:

Department chair at Syracuse University has fracking research corrected due to conflict of interest

By Rachel Sandler
ASST. WEB EDITOR

UPDATED: May 8, 2015 at 4:19 p.m.

A leading scientific journal has issued a correction to a study about fracking that was co-authored by the chair of the department of earth sciences at Syracuse University because of a conflict of interest.

The study concluded that drinking water in North Eastern Pennsylvania was not at a greater risk of methane contamination from fracking wells close to homes than those further away.

Donald Siegel, chair of the earth sciences department, and the co-authors of the study failed to disclose a financial conflict of interest, according to the correction. Siegel did not mention in the study that Chesapeake Energy, an energy company with fracking projects in the area, provided private funding to Siegel to complete to the study, according to the correction. The correction also said the study failed to disclose the fact that a co-author of the study, Bert Smith, worked for Chesapeake Energy during the time of the study.

http://dailyorange.com/2015/05/departmen...ct-of-interest/

Originally Posted By: scwoodchuck
Here is what one of his fellow scientists had to say,

" I have previously published the explanation of these effects in great detail and presented at EPA and IOGANY. No reservoir simulation with realistic geologic and reservoir properties could reproduce Dr. Myers’s fiction. Dr. Myers work does not even deserve Media attention. He obviously has no basic understanding of fluid flow in a hydrocarbon system under pressure flowing to a wellbore. End of Story!" grin

another said, " Thanks for your comments Dr. Siegel. This stuff of Myers is simply a regurgitation of the scurrilous work he did for NRDC in 2009 comments to the SGEIS. In addition to the points you make, his other major flaws are twofold. "
So Myers is paid by an environmental group. grin
You should have read the Gov's entire post, but you never read anything in it's entirety grin

To anyone else out there, this is very interesting and it's from a professor at SYRACUSE. Also read the comments, at the end, from other experts.
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I wonder if clouds ever look down on us and say "Hey look, that one is shaped like an idiot."

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#1489211 --- 09/03/16 12:31 PM Re: Crestwood compromises on LPG [Re: all seeing eye]
scwoodchuck Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/22/14
Posts: 1461
Loc: LOST IN SPACE
But they didn't say there was anythong wrong in the study did they crazy

“I think the paper speaks to itself. The fact that is was never retracted and was never removed from being published by the journal in the beginning nor was it removed after we submitted our expanded disclosure says everything,” Siegel said. “It’s not an issue. It never was an issue”


Edited by scwoodchuck (09/03/16 12:54 PM)
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#1489214 --- 09/03/16 01:07 PM Re: Crestwood compromises on LPG [Re: scwoodchuck]
Timbo Offline
Silver Member

Registered: 07/18/12
Posts: 13450
Loc: CNY
Originally Posted By: scwoodchuck
Here is what one of his fellow scientists had to say,

" I have previously published the explanation of these effects in great detail and presented at EPA and IOGANY. No reservoir simulation with realistic geologic and reservoir properties could reproduce Dr. Myers’s fiction. Dr. Myers work does not even deserve Media attention. He obviously has no basic understanding of fluid flow in a hydrocarbon system under pressure flowing to a wellbore. End of Story!" grin

another said, " Thanks for your comments Dr. Siegel. This stuff of Myers is simply a regurgitation of the scurrilous work he did for NRDC in 2009 comments to the SGEIS. In addition to the points you make, his other major flaws are twofold. "
So Myers is paid by an environmental group. grin
You should have read the Gov's entire post, but you never read anything in it's entirety grin

To anyone else out there, this is very interesting and it's from a professor at SYRACUSE. Also read the comments, at the end, from other experts.

An editorial by some unaccredited commenter has no legitimacy. whatsoever.

If that's what passes these days as credible science debate, then be sure to include the equal number of comments that lay waste to such spurious criticisms of Myer's findings.

Give it "upchuck". Until equally detailed peer-reviewed reports capable of proving any errors in Myer's work are made public, his report remains the best science available, because THAT'S what academic rigor is all about.

In that context, you're just one more unjustafiably opinionated amateur with an internet connection in a digital world steeped in unwarranted egotism.
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Everyone's entitled to their own opinions, but not their own facts.

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#1489216 --- 09/03/16 01:17 PM Re: Crestwood compromises on LPG [Re: all seeing eye]
Timbo Offline
Silver Member

Registered: 07/18/12
Posts: 13450
Loc: CNY
Originally Posted By: all seeing eye
Dr. Siegel is hardly unbiased:

Department chair at Syracuse University has fracking research corrected due to conflict of interest

------------

A leading scientific journal has issued a correction to a study about fracking that was co-authored by the chair of the department of earth sciences at Syracuse University because of a conflict of interest.

The study concluded that drinking water in North Eastern Pennsylvania was not at a greater risk of methane contamination from fracking wells close to homes than those further away.

Donald Siegel, chair of the earth sciences department, and the co-authors of the study failed to disclose a financial conflict of interest, according to the correction. Siegel did not mention in the study that Chesapeake Energy, an energy company with fracking projects in the area, provided private funding to Siegel to complete to the study, according to the correction. The correction also said the study failed to disclose the fact that a co-author of the study, Bert Smith, worked for Chesapeake Energy during the time of the study.

http://dailyorange.com/2015/05/departmen...ct-of-interest/

Which is a categorical discreditization of the material and any alleged findings. Full disclosure is the most fundamental prerequisite of scientific ethics. Period.
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Everyone's entitled to their own opinions, but not their own facts.

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#1489218 --- 09/03/16 01:43 PM Re: Crestwood compromises on LPG [Re: Timbo]
scwoodchuck Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/22/14
Posts: 1461
Loc: LOST IN SPACE
That would be your opinion, even Myer's colleagues at Cornell seam to take issue with his work. Besides if everyone on these forums was on the same side it would be as boring as you are.

grin
"A study in the October 1997 Bulletin of the Ecological Society of America ranked SU's Biology Department's ecology/evolution programs second in the nation for the overall quality of scientific research published by faculty"
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I can't wait till humans evolve into an intelligent species.

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#1489219 --- 09/03/16 01:47 PM Re: Crestwood compromises on LPG [Re: all seeing eye]
scwoodchuck Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/22/14
Posts: 1461
Loc: LOST IN SPACE
Originally Posted By: all seeing eye
Dr. Siegel is hardly unbiased:

Department chair at Syracuse University has fracking research corrected due to conflict of interest

By Rachel Sandler
ASST. WEB EDITOR

UPDATED: May 8, 2015 at 4:19 p.m.

A leading scientific journal has issued a correction to a study about fracking that was co-authored by the chair of the department of earth sciences at Syracuse University because of a conflict of interest.

The study concluded that drinking water in North Eastern Pennsylvania was not at a greater risk of methane contamination from fracking wells close to homes than those further away.

Donald Siegel, chair of the earth sciences department, and the co-authors of the study failed to disclose a financial conflict of interest, according to the correction. Siegel did not mention in the study that Chesapeake Energy, an energy company with fracking projects in the area, provided private funding to Siegel to complete to the study, according to the correction. The correction also said the study failed to disclose the fact that a co-author of the study, Bert Smith, worked for Chesapeake Energy during the time of the study.

http://dailyorange.com/2015/05/departmen...ct-of-interest/

Originally Posted By: scwoodchuck
Here is what one of his fellow scientists had to say,

" I have previously published the explanation of these effects in great detail and presented at EPA and IOGANY. No reservoir simulation with realistic geologic and reservoir properties could reproduce Dr. Myers’s fiction. Dr. Myers work does not even deserve Media attention. He obviously has no basic understanding of fluid flow in a hydrocarbon system under pressure flowing to a wellbore. End of Story!" grin

another said, " Thanks for your comments Dr. Siegel. This stuff of Myers is simply a regurgitation of the scurrilous work he did for NRDC in 2009 comments to the SGEIS. In addition to the points you make, his other major flaws are twofold. "
So Myers is paid by an environmental group. grin
You should have read the Gov's entire post, but you never read anything in it's entirety grin

To anyone else out there, this is very interesting and it's from a professor at SYRACUSE. Also read the comments, at the end, from other experts.
You didn't look at this link, did you ? His paper was published crazy
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#1505656 --- 09/29/17 09:04 PM Re: Crestwood compromises on LPG [Re: scwoodchuck]
gassy one Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/27/16
Posts: 1946

DEC Ruling Favors Crestwood in Reading Gas Storage


Crestwood LLC is one step closer to storing liquid petroleum gas in salt caverns near Seneca Lake in the town of Reading following a ruling on the process to be followed for permitting storage was handed down earlier this month by DEC Chief Admnistrative Judge James McClymonds.

The judge ruled, with one exception, that no evidentiary hearing was required on the issues raised by the groups Gas Free Seneca, Finger Lakes Wine Business Coalition, the Seneca Lake Communities, or Seneca Lake Pure Waters Association. The record is held open on the question whether there were reasonable alternatives to the project, and asked the applicant to confirm whether it owned or had options on salt caverns within 30 miles of Seneca Lake.

Gas Free Seneca plans to file an appeal to the DEC Commissioner, who has the ability to adopt, modify or reject the Judge’s ruling in whole or in part.

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#1505669 --- 09/29/17 09:37 PM Re: Crestwood compromises on LPG [Re: gassy one]
scwoodchuck Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/22/14
Posts: 1461
Loc: LOST IN SPACE
Nobody wants to play anymore
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#1505690 --- 09/30/17 09:57 AM Re: Crestwood compromises on LPG [Re: scwoodchuck]
gassy one Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/27/16
Posts: 1946
Originally Posted By: scwoodchuck
Nobody wants to play anymore
They haven't got much to say when they lose! LOL!

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#1505698 --- 09/30/17 10:25 AM Re: Crestwood compromises on LPG [Re: gassy one]
gassy one Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/27/16
Posts: 1946
The funny part is a big percentage of Gas Free Seneca are the ones polluting Seneca Lake the most!

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