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#1475571 --- 09/13/15 10:57 AM Re: The Battle of Co Rt 124 [Re: kyle585]
Timbo Offline
Silver Member

Registered: 07/18/12
Posts: 14300
Loc: CNY
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Timbo
You say that every time I tell you that.

As for the rest... educate yourself. Pick up a dictionary, read a book on Native American History, Google the terms "Government-to-Government" and for God's sake, learn about the US Constitution as it relates to ALL Treaties. Especially the parts about ALL treaties being equally binding as our Constitution and enterable only by Foreign (SOVEREIGN) nations and within the states.

* U.S. Constitution: Commerce Clause (Article 1, Section 8, Clause 3).
* The Snyder Act.
* Customary International Law.

Now take some responsibility for your own education.
You want me to do hours and hours of reading when you should be able to explain it all on here in 10 minutes? haha

See... therein lies the problem. You don't truly want to learn anything. You simply want to have your prejudices reaffirmed. How would you have any idea how long it would take to explain the volume of material on the subject? You've never bothered to even look at it.

It took me hours upon hours of disciplined research to obtain the facts. Why do you feel entitled to having to put any less effort into it?

White Privilege, maybe? whistle

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#1475576 --- 09/13/15 11:50 AM Re: The Battle of Co Rt 124 [Re: Timbo]
Logic Offline
Member

Registered: 12/19/12
Posts: 28
Loc: Seneca County
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: Logic
You are ridiculous.....innocent people are going to get hurt due to this nonsense. At least call out the violence and argue that those responsible should be brought to justice. A kid on a bike nearly got hit a few weeks ago because of this crap.

I wonder how many Indian kids were "hurt" over the past few hundred years.

Hmmm. whistle


Ban this idiot. He is saying that it is OK for kids to get hurt due to tribal infighting. Remember this isn't the big bad white man doing anything, this is infighting among the tribes themselves and others are getting caught in the crossfire. A school bus couldn't even drop off students at their home for crimes sake. It is ridiculous.

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#1475577 --- 09/13/15 12:14 PM Re: The Battle of Co Rt 124 [Re: Logic]
Timbo Offline
Silver Member

Registered: 07/18/12
Posts: 14300
Loc: CNY
Originally Posted By: Logic
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: Logic
You are ridiculous.....innocent people are going to get hurt due to this nonsense. At least call out the violence and argue that those responsible should be brought to justice. A kid on a bike nearly got hit a few weeks ago because of this crap.

I wonder how many Indian kids were "hurt" over the past few hundred years.

Hmmm. whistle


Ban this idiot. He is saying that it is OK for kids to get hurt due to tribal infighting. Remember this isn't the big bad white man doing anything, this is infighting among the tribes themselves and others are getting caught in the crossfire. A school bus couldn't even drop off students at their home for crimes sake. It is ridiculous.

Don't be melodramatic. I'm not suggesting any such thing. I'm pointing out the obvious hypocrisy of those who choose to whip themselves into an hysterical frothy lather over something that in fact DIDN'T happen, when by comparison, FAR worse has systematically been endured by those of whom you and so many others on this anti-indian tirade, are so rabidly and inequitably attacking.

There are very clear and well-understood reasons that these events happen and at their core they all center around the past and present persecution of Native Americans. The fact that you choose to ignore these very real facts, is irrelevant. It's not as if similar incidents aren't happening at greater frequency and with FAR higher level of severity in and by white communities, regularly, all over this country. You're just making an epic issue out of things because it involves the Indian community and because they're such an easy target. It's easier for you to vilify an entire group of peoples than it is for you to ponder the causes and to take the ethical path to fix the true problem(s). But hey, that would involve real effort and scrifice, wouldn't it?

Next time, think before you make such wholly uninformed statements.
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Everyone's entitled to their own opinions, but not their own facts.

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#1475578 --- 09/13/15 12:21 PM Re: The Battle of Co Rt 124 [Re: Timbo]
kyle585 Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 02/18/09
Posts: 19801
Loc: Somewhere out there
Originally Posted By: Timbo
There are very clear and well-understood reasons that these events happen and at their core they all center around the past and present persecution of Native Americans.
Hundreds of years ago. Yes Indeed. Today absolutely not. Nothing is holding them back but themselves in the land of the free and the home of the brave. Many of them have joined America's mainstream and are doing just fine.
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#1475579 --- 09/13/15 12:26 PM Re: The Battle of Co Rt 124 [Re: kyle585]
Timbo Offline
Silver Member

Registered: 07/18/12
Posts: 14300
Loc: CNY
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Timbo
There are very clear and well-understood reasons that these events happen and at their core they all center around the past and present persecution of Native Americans.
Hundreds of years ago. Yes Indeed. Today absolutely not. Nothing is holding them back but themselves in the land of the free and the home of the brave. Many of them have joined America's mainstream and are doing just fine.

Oh Barf! Spare me the syrupy, insipid platitudes.

You're suggesting that they should except forced assimilation at gunpoint. You'd never do it, and you can be sure that THEY won't.

If someone were (for instance) to kill your family and take your house and force you to live on a wooded lot God knows where, would bygones be bygones after enough time elapsed?

I didn't think so.
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#1475580 --- 09/13/15 12:39 PM Re: The Battle of Co Rt 124 [Re: Timbo]
kyle585 Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 02/18/09
Posts: 19801
Loc: Somewhere out there
Originally Posted By: Timbo
If I were (for instance) to kill your family and take your house and force you to live on a wooded lot God knows where, would bygones be bygones after enough time elapsed?

I didn't think so.
Hundreds of years later. Yes. There is no choice but to move on. It has happened to all kinds of people all over the world throughout history. It happened to millions of Jews in World War II. Unfortunately, it is happening to millions of people in Syria today. It is not happening to any Native Americans today.
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#1475582 --- 09/13/15 12:42 PM Re: The Battle of Co Rt 124 [Re: Timbo]
DR. D Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/25/03
Posts: 6471
Loc: Waterloo/Seneca Falls/Junius/T...
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: DR. D
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Recreational drug use (legal or otherwise) does NOT automatically disqualify one as a "good person/citizen".

Uh I am gonna have to say that if you use cocaine, meth, heroin, Meow_Meow, etc., anything illegal you at some point have made one heck of a bad judgment call at several points.

Respectfully, you would be well served to further educate yourself about the TRUE nature of some drugs (e.g.: Cocaine and Heroin). In many parts of the world (developed and otherwise) people freely use both with little or no more risk to personal or public health, or safety than any other drug (* think alcohol and caffeine). The drugs are regulated for safety, they are taken out of the hands of organized crime and they are in common use by doctors, lawyers, politicians, clergy and so on.

These models reveal decades of successful legalization and integration into everyday life and have far fewer costs to society than do alcohol, cigarettes or fast food. Addictions are fewer and are treated quickly, related communicable diseases become virtually nonexistent and violent crime rates plummet.

So, no... the drugs are not the problem. Current Drug laws and the related institutionalization of our criminal justice system IS.

Are all drugs equally safe? No. But the categorical statements being made above are generalizations with a broad, range of exceptions rendering them mostly inaccurate and therefore meaningless.


Two people possibly wacked out on coke attempting a home invasion somehow isn't an issue.... that's due to drug laws..... Yeah we are not even on the same page let alone book.

No one is saying that anyone should be forced at gunpoint that's the key idea here. We are all citizens in this country (those here legally)what ever side of the issue you are on, pretty sure the focal point is public safety.

What we have here is a gang war.

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#1475584 --- 09/13/15 12:45 PM Re: The Battle of Co Rt 124 [Re: kyle585]
DR. D Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/25/03
Posts: 6471
Loc: Waterloo/Seneca Falls/Junius/T...
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Hundreds of years later. Yes. There is no choice but to move on. It has happened to all kinds of people all over the world throughout history. It happened to millions of Jews in World War II. Unfortunately, it is happening to millions of people in Syria today. It is not happening to any Native Americans today.


What the heck is wrong with you? I can't believe you would even type such a thing.

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#1475585 --- 09/13/15 12:50 PM Re: The Battle of Co Rt 124 [Re: kyle585]
Timbo Offline
Silver Member

Registered: 07/18/12
Posts: 14300
Loc: CNY
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Timbo
If I were (for instance) to kill your family and take your house and force you to live on a wooded lot God knows where, would bygones be bygones after enough time elapsed?

I didn't think so.
Hundreds of years later. Yes. There is no choice but to move on. It has happened to all kinds of people all over the world throughout history. It happened to millions of Jews in World War II. Unfortunately, it is happening to millions of people in Syria today. It is not happening to any Native Americans today.

Wrong. There IS a choice and they have clearly made it. It is just, it is fair and it is long overdue.

As for post-war Jews... I suggest you do a little more digging on what THEY did after WWII. whistle

The fact that Native Americans are winning in the courts over an exhaustive collection of legal issues, at all levels of government, clearly proves that it is indeed still happening. The fact that they are under relentless pressure to except forced-assimilation only punctuates that fact.

Now go away and try reading about those subjects I provided just for you.
_________________________
Everyone's entitled to their own opinions, but not their own facts.

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#1475586 --- 09/13/15 12:53 PM Re: The Battle of Co Rt 124 [Re: DR. D]
kyle585 Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 02/18/09
Posts: 19801
Loc: Somewhere out there
Originally Posted By: DR. D
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Hundreds of years later. Yes. There is no choice but to move on. It has happened to all kinds of people all over the world throughout history. It happened to millions of Jews in World War II. Unfortunately, it is happening to millions of people in Syria today. It is not happening to any Native Americans today.
What the heck is wrong with you? I can't believe you would even type such a thing.
Really? What do you disagree with what I said here?
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#1475588 --- 09/13/15 01:02 PM Re: The Battle of Co Rt 124 [Re: Here's Johnny]
Logic Offline
Member

Registered: 12/19/12
Posts: 28
Loc: Seneca County
Sorry Timbo but these things are Most certainly NOT happening here. We don't have people smashing cars into stores, standing on the roof of buildings like Bodines with guns drawn, we don't have people breaking into stores, looting and burning merchandise on the lawn. These things are happening in our community because of the Cayugas. Nobody is making them do that.....using your logic maybe I should stop paying my bills because my grandfather didn't hug my father enough. Show that you are logical and condemn the violence rather than supporting it and offering reasons for it. Just plain stupid.

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#1475594 --- 09/13/15 01:35 PM Re: The Battle of Co Rt 124 [Re: Logic]
kyle585 Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 02/18/09
Posts: 19801
Loc: Somewhere out there
Originally Posted By: Logic
Sorry Timbo but these things are Most certainly NOT happening here. We don't have people smashing cars into stores, standing on the roof of buildings like Bodines with guns drawn, we don't have people breaking into stores, looting and burning merchandise on the lawn. These things are happening in our community because of the Cayugas. Nobody is making them do that.....using your logic maybe I should stop paying my bills because my grandfather didn't hug my father enough. Show that you are logical and condemn the violence rather than supporting it and offering reasons for it. Just plain stupid.
Well said Logic. Timbo is saying this is your great, great, great grandfathers fault and you must suffer because of it.


Edited by kyle585 (09/13/15 01:42 PM)
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#1475597 --- 09/13/15 01:50 PM Re: The Battle of Co Rt 124 [Re: Timbo]
hearallseeall Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/03/10
Posts: 1973
Loc: nolongerunder10pilesoftrash
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Don't like it? Then return to them their rightful, unencumbered sovereignty.
How do we do that? Give them all of America back?
Don't be obtuse.

In the spirit of rational thought, we can certainly start with giving some of it back, yes, absolutely. But first, unfettered Government-to-Government Sovereignty.
I think this is the first time I have heard you say this. How much should we give back? a town? a county? a state? I don't know how unfettered Government-to-Government Sovereignty works in this case? What it means?

You say that every time I tell you that.

As for the rest... educate yourself. Pick up a dictionary, read a book on Native American History, Google the terms "Government-to-Government" and for God's sake, learn about the US Constitution as it relates to ALL Treaties. Especially the parts about ALL treaties being equally binding as our Constitution and enterable only by Foreign (SOVEREIGN) nations and within the states.

* U.S. Constitution: Commerce Clause (Article 1, Section 8, Clause 3).
* The Snyder Act.
* Customary International Law.

Now take some responsibility for your own education.

Is that hard to give a straight answer??

A man wants to have a discussion on what you feel would be a fair deal to make right to a group that has had so many wrongs done to it (in your opinion for something that happened 200 plus years ago).

All you can say is, go read this, this, and this and that will be my answer. Then you have the audacity to say it's white privilege. Get off your high horse. Maybe, just maybe, your theories and ideas work in your head after being "well disciplined" in your area but in real life, quite simply, the ideas suck!

You cannot have pockets within in the United States that basically say we don't have laws and a few feet down the road is a well enforced set of laws. As Kyle pointed out before and you are still not aware of is that these are no longer "white man laws." These laws are ideas of many different backgrounds and many races that were created over years and years.

Quite honestly, today's laws do no favors for the white man at all. They favor people of color. You have blacks rioting, killing, and being terrible citizens just because another black person (that they don't even know) got into trouble with the law. They want to claim blacks are being targeted. When talking about 'black lives matter', they conveniently forget to mention black on black crime or better yet, black on white crime. These rioters are being treated with kid gloves. Passive people saying that they're just frustrated with what's happening. Please, save the sob stories. Then, you have our president causing more racial arguments than actually solving them. He gives a speech with the NAACP banner in the background telling us blacks are being mistreated because there are more of them in jail and we need to release them because they have KIDS to support! LOL.

You have affirmative action laws that tell employers to hire a certain number representing minority groups before they get to the regular ol' white man. You have grants upon grants for native americans on the basis that they are just that, Native American. There this no other stipulation.

So, should we all be amazed that you've spent hours and hours "disciplining" yourself on indian history and how they were so abused 200 years ago? I'm not. I would like to know the same thing Kyle asked. What do you feel a fair agreement would be to make up for all this "wrong" that was done to them. We already know they just get money for being alive. Money that they didn't have to work one bit for. You want to talk about privilege, THAT'S PRIVILEGE! I have never, EVER, in my WHITE life gotten money from Uncle Sam just for being white. I guess my privilege isn't as good as YOUR privilege! I've worked for EVERY cent that has EVER been in MY pocket. Not only have I worked for the money that has been in MY pocket. I've busted my ass for the money that is in HalfClown's pockets and all the other thugs down there as well. Owning, building, and buying homes that are 200G plus in Seneca Falls and Union Springs from owning 2 gas stations. That sounds like true PRIVILEGE right there. Oh yea, let's not forget to mention a HALF MILLION dollar grant from the Indian Housing Grant. MORE PRIVILEGE!!

That's money that came from MY paycheck and every other hard WORKING person in this nation. People that actually WORK and not WHINE about how they are being abused going and going around shooting/killing people, burning things, and being a detriment to society. That's time I spent at work while these thugs are going around doing/dealing drugs, having sex, and bringing more trash into the world (giving us more thugs for us to support).

So please, share your opinion since your so 'disciplined' in your area of expertise. I'm sure your idea is perfect (in your head).

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#1475598 --- 09/13/15 01:58 PM Re: The Battle of Co Rt 124 [Re: hearallseeall]
kyle585 Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 02/18/09
Posts: 19801
Loc: Somewhere out there
Great post hearallseeall. Thanks.
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#1475600 --- 09/13/15 02:35 PM Re: The Battle of Co Rt 124 [Re: Here's Johnny]
Logic Offline
Member

Registered: 12/19/12
Posts: 28
Loc: Seneca County
Well said, I am curious as well what suggestion does Timbo have? How much more money, how many more advantages should they get? Again the past is not making the factions fight with each other, while the rest of us can't drive on route 89.

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#1475602 --- 09/13/15 02:55 PM Re: The Battle of Co Rt 124 [Re: Logic]
kyle585 Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 02/18/09
Posts: 19801
Loc: Somewhere out there
Originally Posted By: Logic
Well said, I am curious as well what suggestion does Timbo have? How much more money, how many more advantages should they get? Again the past is not making the factions fight with each other, while the rest of us can't drive on route 89.
Exactly.
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#1475603 --- 09/13/15 03:48 PM Re: The Battle of Co Rt 124 [Re: hearallseeall]
Timbo Offline
Silver Member

Registered: 07/18/12
Posts: 14300
Loc: CNY
Originally Posted By: hearallseeall
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Don't like it? Then return to them their rightful, unencumbered sovereignty.
How do we do that? Give them all of America back?
Don't be obtuse.

In the spirit of rational thought, we can certainly start with giving some of it back, yes, absolutely. But first, unfettered Government-to-Government Sovereignty.
I think this is the first time I have heard you say this. How much should we give back? a town? a county? a state? I don't know how unfettered Government-to-Government Sovereignty works in this case? What it means?

You say that every time I tell you that.

As for the rest... educate yourself. Pick up a dictionary, read a book on Native American History, Google the terms "Government-to-Government" and for God's sake, learn about the US Constitution as it relates to ALL Treaties. Especially the parts about ALL treaties being equally binding as our Constitution and enterable only by Foreign (SOVEREIGN) nations and within the states.

* U.S. Constitution: Commerce Clause (Article 1, Section 8, Clause 3).
* The Snyder Act.
* Customary International Law.

Now take some responsibility for your own education.

Is that hard to give a straight answer??

A man wants to have a discussion on what you feel would be a fair deal to make right to a group that has had so many wrongs done to it (in your opinion).

All you can say is, go read this, this, and this and that will be my answer. Then you have the audacity to say it's white privilege.

It's definitely an overblown sense of self-entitlement to say the least.

This man you refer to has the audacity to suggest that there's nothing morally or legally wrong with the current conditions endured by Native Americans, yet he (like you) refuse to make the commitment to learn anything about the history of the ongoing and well-documented criminality connected with the law and domination of the peoples.

I've posted the subject, the reference and the overview. I've done FAR more than is my responsibility. It's not my job to provide you with an education. It's his and yours, no one else's. So get a grip, hoist up your knickers and do what any self-respecting, self-motivated individual with an ounce of integrity of character does. Do your own work and stop expecting others to gleefully carry your load for you. I've done my due diligence. I suggest that the two of you should finally get around to doing the same. If not, you'll still be entitled to your opinion. You simply won't have the benefit of speaking from the perspective of having any credible knowledge. BIG difference. I highly recommend it. But alas, if someone's unwilling (or incapable) of looking up the definition of words and concepts such as "unfettered" or "government-to-government", then I'm afraid that I don't ho;d out much hope for them.

You too are riding on the backs of those whom suffered the most. Stolen property is illegal to possess regardless of the time that has elapsed. Don't try to suggest otherwise.

I love it when people use the word "thug" nowadays. It makes it just that much easier to spot the racists hiding in the shadows.

I wonder what possible reason you could have for objecting to being told to look something up that is both easy to find and so very ripe for the picking. Why indeed? whistle


Side Note: you need to learn the actual definition of the term "white privilege". It has absolutely nothing to do with earnings, the US government or any of the other odd misfires of statement that you made. What "black lives matter" has to do with this discussion is completely beyond me.

Scratch that. On second thought, I believe I know precisely where it's coming from.
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#1475604 --- 09/13/15 04:20 PM Re: The Battle of Co Rt 124 [Re: Timbo]
hearallseeall Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/03/10
Posts: 1973
Loc: nolongerunder10pilesoftrash
Originally Posted By: Timbo
It's definitely an overblown sense of self-entitlement to say the least.

This man you refer to has the audacity to suggest that there's nothing morally or legally wrong with the current conditions endured by Native Americans, yet he (like you) refuse to make the commitment to learn anything about the history of the ongoing and well-documented criminality connected with the law and domination of the peoples.

I've posted the subject, the reference and the overview. I've done FAR more than is my responsibility. It's not my job to provide you with an education. It's his and yours, no one else's. So get a grip, hoist up your knickers and do what any self-respecting, self-motivated individual with an ounce of integrity of character does. Do your own work and stop expecting others to gleefully carry your load for you. I've done my due diligence. I suggest that the two of you should finally get around to doing the same. If not, you'll still be entitled to your opinion. You simply won't have the benefit of speaking from the perspective of having any credible knowledge. BIG difference. I highly recommend it. But alas, if someone's unwilling (or incapable) of looking up the definition of words and concepts such as "unfettered" or "government-to-government", then I'm afraid that I don't ho;d out much hope for them.

You too are riding on the backs of those whom suffered the most. Stolen property is illegal to possess regardless of the time that has elapsed. Don't try to suggest otherwise.

I love it when people use the word "thug" nowadays. It makes it just that much easier to spot the racists hiding in the shadows.

I wonder what possible reason you could have for objecting to being told to look something up that is both easy to find and so very ripe for the picking. Why indeed? whistle


Side Note: you need to learn the actual definition of the term "white privilege". It has absolutely nothing to do with earnings, the US government or any of the other odd misfires of statement that you made. What "black lives matter" has to do with this discussion is completely beyond me.

Scratch that. On second thought, I believe I know precisely where it's coming from.

OK! You are definitely out there! Come back to earth, please!

It's also easy for those whining about not having enough GIVEN to them to say everyone that objects to these handouts are racist.

You definitely know how to take an argument in circles. Actually, it's not even a circle. It's, This is my side and I have no interest in meeting in the middle. "This happened and I will hold you to the cross until you die or just agree with me 100% on how I feel."

I have some football to watch. GO REDSKINS! Definitely not a 'skins fan but it's just another amusing thing for you pro-indian people to whine about and get all sensitive about.

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#1475605 --- 09/13/15 04:23 PM Re: The Battle of Co Rt 124 [Re: Logic]
hearallseeall Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/03/10
Posts: 1973
Loc: nolongerunder10pilesoftrash
Originally Posted By: Logic
Well said, I am curious as well what suggestion does Timbo have? How much more money, how many more advantages should they get? Again the past is not making the factions fight with each other, while the rest of us can't drive on route 89.

It's just easier for people like Timbo to blame Europeans for EVERYTHING regardless of who's fault it actually is.

He's obviously racist against people of European descent. He's really trying to amp up the white guilt level of EVERYONE!

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#1475606 --- 09/13/15 04:43 PM Re: The Battle of Co Rt 124 [Re: hearallseeall]
Timbo Offline
Silver Member

Registered: 07/18/12
Posts: 14300
Loc: CNY
Originally Posted By: hearallseeall
You definitely know how to take an argument in circles. Actually, it's not even a circle. It's, This is my side and I have no interest in meeting in the middle. "This happened and I will hold you to the cross until you die or just agree with me 100% on how I feel."

You see, this is the what you're not getting.
You're using only opinion as a basis for your entire argument. I've referenced only citable facts.

One is inherently superior to the other and opinions alone are never a justifiable basis for logic-based determinations... ever.

Another thing that you are utterly wrong about. Facts either are or they are not. There is never a middle ground when dealing with them. Facts are NEVER a matter of "balance". Facts are never to be a compromise. That's their defining characteristic.
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