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#1476097 --- 09/19/15 09:47 AM Re: Recent illlegal display by the Cayuga on Co Rd 124 [Re: bluezone]
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32556
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Acenes
The federal courts have repeatedly ruled that the Cayugas have the right to purchase land and not pay taxes on it.


incorrect

Quote:
Court sides with Sherrill
Supreme Court justices rule 8-1
Oneida Nation must pay tax to city
Wed, Mar 30, 2005
R. PATRICK CORBETT Observer-Dispatch

The Oneida Indian Nation must pay taxes on its property in the city of Sherrill and potentially on all land it has bought outside of its 32-acre reservation in Madison County, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled Tuesday . In an 8-1 decision, the court ruled that the New York Oneidas cannot disrupt two centuries of local development by refusing to pay local taxes on a gas station and T-shirt factory it owns in Sherrill in Oneida County. New York City lawyer Ira Sacks, who pleaded Sherrill's case pro bono, said, "We were very pleased. The Supreme Court agreed with the principal argument that after 200 years ... the Oneida Indian Nation can't pick and choose places to buy and take it out of local jurisdiction." The justices also remarked on the "distinctly non-Indian character of the area and its inhabitants," because most Oneida Indians moved out of the area about 150 years ago.



would you like to expain why halftown has applied for 'trust land'?

also explain why halftown would want the federal government to own the land he purchased by placing it into 'trust'
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#1476098 --- 09/19/15 10:12 AM Re: Recent illlegal display by the Cayuga on Co Rd 124 [Re: grinch]
Timbo Offline
Silver Member

Registered: 07/18/12
Posts: 14337
Loc: CNY

It is very sad to read your postings as you attempt to prove something or other or to make an argument over things settled centuries ago. My statement does not need defending.

Think Again. Those "things" as you put it, are unquestionably NOT settled, or the courts wouldn't be revisiting and reversing numerous laws and procedures.

Are you all right? Do you need a little help towards actually understanding what happened in the past, why it happened and the situation today? Perhaps someone here can point you in the right direction to do some reading and research. You seem to read meaning in someone's post that is neither there or apparent to others. Perhaps a little reading on bigotry and racisim might help you to recognize it when it comes up.

I submit that you are the one likely in need of a comprehensive refresher in historical perspective. You're making nebulous assertions about history that strongly suggest a total disregard for historical fact (in full context). Please explain specifically the "historical references" that you're referring to. It's likely that your views are at very least expurgated beyond any credible probability.

Do you understand the rights and responsibilities of individual citizens or small business purchasing and owning properties? Rights everyone has including Indians and Tribal business. You seem to be confused on the issue concerning property ownership and governmental control. Perhaps you should review what SCOTUS actually said about Indians and Indian business paying taxes on land they own and why the matter is still before the courts. You may find your statement is inaccurate.

Would you please entertain us with the specifics and their significance to the discussion?

The Cayuga’s day in the sun ended long ago, they were not able to hold against a few then, today they have absolutely no chance of ever regaining something they never had. Live with it.

Then you have no problem with having everything of yours taken by force and "Living With It"??? Because that's PRECISELY what were talking about, here. There's NO Difference.

Oh I do admire your passion and tenacity as you fight your windmills in the sky.

I find it hard to respect hypocrisy, willful ignorance and self-justifying logic, regardless of the enthusiasm behind it.
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Everyone's entitled to their own opinions, but not their own facts.

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#1476103 --- 09/19/15 11:01 AM Re: Recent illlegal display by the Cayuga on Co Rd 124 [Re: grinch]
Boudicca Offline
Member

Registered: 11/06/10
Posts: 61
Loc: Thames LockCS4
Originally Posted By: grinch
I have been here since the very beginning of these threads and through the threats and intimidation perpetuated by the Cayuga and this is what I see and what I believed then and now.

99% of what is posted is garbage and the remaining 1% of fact has been disputed in courts and the Cayuga's lost. This is ancient history just as the control of the Cayuga’s over this land was. Yet there are those who continue to profess knowledge of the law and how it should apply. Save it for the courts and let the legal eagles handle that end of it. I for one do not feel inferior because some know the difference in the various courts and how the law is applied. Oh and I am sick to death of political correctness as those attempting to wrest political control spread their tainted message.

Most of us are just plain, uneducated lay people who know the basics and will post our opinions regardless of insults and attempts to put down the poster rather than his information.

This is what the many of us believe and no one is going to change our minds.


One cannot take a certain point in history such as the arrival of the Cayuga and say that any changes after their seizure of the land do not mean anything and it was and always will be Cayuga land. It was not then and certainly is not today. There were many here BEFORE the Cayuga and certainly before the Iroquois League became the dominant society. The Cayuga wrested control from the Algonquin as the most dominant society in its day and later the Cayuga were displaced by yet another more dominant society, the Europeans. The Indian lost the ability to govern and rule the land in the late 1700’s and early 1800’s and the little land remaining under their control was sold.

That is what happened, nothing we say will change those facts. They have been told in no uncertain terms they cannot just purchase land and declare it sovereign as they lost that governmental
authority centuries ago.


Civilization has advanced steadily and overwhelmed those who are resistant to change. Governments change, the nature of the population as well. Civilization marches on.


And so went the Cayuga and their brief tenancy of the land.

BUMP

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#1476106 --- 09/19/15 11:52 AM Re: Recent illlegal display by the Cayuga on Co Rd 124 [Re: Timbo]
grinch Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/28/01
Posts: 4617
Loc: New York State
Originally Posted By: Timbo

It is very sad to read your postings as you attempt to prove something or other or to make an argument over things settled centuries ago. My statement does not need defending.

Think Again. Those "things" as you put it, are unquestionably NOT settled, or the courts wouldn't be revisiting and reversing numerous laws and procedures.

Are you all right? Do you need a little help towards actually understanding what happened in the past, why it happened and the situation today? Perhaps someone here can point you in the right direction to do some reading and research. You seem to read meaning in someone's post that is neither there or apparent to others. Perhaps a little reading on bigotry and racisim might help you to recognize it when it comes up.

I submit that you are the one likely in need of a comprehensive refresher in historical perspective. You're making nebulous assertions about history that strongly suggest a total disregard for historical fact (in full context). Please explain specifically the "historical references" that you're referring to. It's likely that your views are at very least expurgated beyond any credible probability.

Do you understand the rights and responsibilities of individual citizens or small business purchasing and owning properties? Rights everyone has including Indians and Tribal business. You seem to be confused on the issue concerning property ownership and governmental control. Perhaps you should review what SCOTUS actually said about Indians and Indian business paying taxes on land they own and why the matter is still before the courts. You may find your statement is inaccurate.

Would you please entertain us with the specifics and their significance to the discussion?

The Cayuga’s day in the sun ended long ago, they were not able to hold against a few then, today they have absolutely no chance of ever regaining something they never had. Live with it.

Then you have no problem with having everything of yours taken by force and "Living With It"??? Because that's PRECISELY what were talking about, here. There's NO Difference.

Oh I do admire your passion and tenacity as you fight your windmills in the sky.

I find it hard to respect hypocrisy, willful ignorance and self-justifying logic, regardless of the enthusiasm behind it.


What, you expect I am going to debate you or justify what I posted? You are kidding right? If not, I won't dignify your comments with an answer. Read what I posted and take it to the bank as that is the feeling of the majority of residents in this area.

I have no need or desire to explain anything to anyone much less you. Facts are as I stated, any dissenters are merely trying to weasel out of treaties and accepted payments by their ancestors.





Edited by grinch (09/19/15 11:57 AM)

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#1476107 --- 09/19/15 12:27 PM Re: Recent illlegal display by the Cayuga on Co Rd 124 [Re: grinch]
kyle585 Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 02/18/09
Posts: 19801
Loc: Somewhere out there
Originally Posted By: grinch
Read what I posted and take it to the bank as that is the feeling of the majority of residents in this area.
The vast majority of residents whose number is growing as the violence increases.
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#1476108 --- 09/19/15 12:29 PM Re: Recent illlegal display by the Cayuga on Co Rd 124 [Re: grinch]
kyle585 Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 02/18/09
Posts: 19801
Loc: Somewhere out there
Originally Posted By: grinch
Facts are as I stated, any dissenters are merely trying to weasel out of treaties and accepted payments by their ancestors.
You have posted many, many times about the Indian situation over many years now. I appreciate all of the research you put into it.
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#1476111 --- 09/19/15 04:06 PM Re: Recent illlegal display by the Cayuga on Co Rd 124 [Re: kyle585]
grinch Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/28/01
Posts: 4617
Loc: New York State
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: grinch
Facts are as I stated, any dissenters are merely trying to weasel out of treaties and accepted payments by their ancestors.
You have posted many, many times about the Indian situation over many years now. I appreciate all of the research you put into it.



Yes I have been around a long, long time I rarely post anymore as it is not necessary, especially on this forum. Then some Johnny comes lately tries to force their views on everyone with little or no respect for the poster. They try to turn things by demanding proof from a dissenting poster rather than post any modicum of truth to support their pie in the sky views. They demand proof of anything they do not understand, proof that has been posted time and time again. Spend a little time reading and researching what transpired over the past 200 plus years, maybe they might find some new angle supported by whatever. Everyone knows as fact YOU CANNOT SUE an Indian Tribe. Then it follows, anything remaining in the courts is there BECAUSE THE Tribes have not accepted the law, the truth or whatever and they initiated the law suit. Because it is still in the court system does not mean it is not settled, it merely points to the Tribe trying to get around the law, pact, treaty or whatever. Remember: one can sue for anything and the tribes’ do. We do not have such a luxury as we cannot sue the Tribe. Sometimes the case is against the State or the state vs the county as the courts will entertain such suits. As Mr. Talcott points out time and time again the real culprit in all of this is the State of New York and a handful of corrupt politicians. You will note that the Feds are slowly weeding out these bad apples by convicting and imprisonment of some of the leaders in the State Senate such as Silver and Bruno.


I had the utmost respect for the Cayuga and the individual Indian until the original land claim was filed. I lost that respect due to the actions of the current bunch claiming they represent the Cayuga. By the way in case some of you missed it. There is no land claim so ruled by SCOTUS, no claim to the land, no evictions as they tried to do. It is obvious they have to pay taxes hence they are paid before a piece of property is purchased by the Tribe. Their refusal to pay the taxes after that day is against the law. However they get away with it because their is no mechanism available to the town, county state or whatever to collect the taxes without a law suit. Remember, you cannot sue a Tribe due to sovereign immunity. That means the local taxing authorities are legally due the taxes but do not have a way to enforce collection. That will be rectified soon, hence the urgency for the tribe to get land into trust where it would be exempt from taxes. My hope is the Tribe keeps pressing and does let it go to court for then the fallacy of sovereign immunity of the tribes will be tested and modified. My guess is the bigger more influential tribes will not let that happen as then their sovereign status might come under review.

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#1476112 --- 09/19/15 04:38 PM Re: Recent illlegal display by the Cayuga on Co Rd 124 [Re: grinch]
kyle585 Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 02/18/09
Posts: 19801
Loc: Somewhere out there
Thanks again grinch.
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#1476113 --- 09/19/15 04:53 PM Re: Recent illlegal display by the Cayuga on Co Rd 124 [Re: grinch]
Timbo Offline
Silver Member

Registered: 07/18/12
Posts: 14337
Loc: CNY
Originally Posted By: grinch
What, you expect I am going to debate you or justify what I posted? You are kidding right? If not, I won't dignify your comments with an answer. Read what I posted and take it to the bank as that is the feeling of the majority of residents in this area.

I have no need or desire to explain anything to anyone much less you. Facts are as I stated, any dissenters are merely trying to weasel out of treaties and accepted payments by their ancestors.

You clearly have no concept of the difference between fact and opinion. Otherwise you'd cite some specifics.
_________________________
Everyone's entitled to their own opinions, but not their own facts.

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#1476116 --- 09/19/15 05:17 PM Re: Recent illlegal display by the Cayuga on Co Rd 124 [Re: grinch]
grinch Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/28/01
Posts: 4617
Loc: New York State
It is my thought the issue over unpaid land taxes can be solved by a local law stating no new purchase of land can occur until all taxes are paid on properties currently owned by the entity are paid.

This law would apply to all transfers of properties meaning everyone must comply or else the transaction cannot be recorded. It does not single out one group, but is applicable to all as our constitution requires.

I leave it to the legal authorities to determine the legality of such a law and if such a law could be passed.

It seems to be a simple solution. This does not solve payment of back taxes but should stop the accumulation of additional unpaid taxes.

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#1476117 --- 09/19/15 05:55 PM Re: The Battle of Co Rt 124 [Re: hearallseeall]
Acenes Offline
Member

Registered: 05/15/15
Posts: 185
Originally Posted By: hearallseeall
Originally Posted By: Acenes
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Acenes
What don't you understand? It's not the sheriff, it's the department. It's the system. It's the way policing is a business now.
a business now? Was it better years ago? When and why did it change?

It was absolutely better years ago. When the law was just that...The law. Beginning in the '90's policing for profit began to come about. Municipalities began to realize just how much money they could make off non-violent tax-payers who commit victimless "Crimes". I bet you didn't know the Seneca county "correctional facility" and Five Points prison are both privately-run did you? Prisoners are treated as a commodity and the company that owns and operates these facilities make money off people being held their for non-violent and victimless crimes. Do the research.

You need to do YOUR research!!

How can anyone take you seriously when you're trying to tell us a Seneca COUNTY (C O U N T Y) Correctional Facility and a NY STATE (S T A T E) Prison are PRIVATELY owned.

Tell us this ACNE. Where did our NYS prisoner David Sweat end up??







Entirely wrong. Just because they have county or state after their name does not signify who owns them. Do some research on the CCA (Corrections Corporation of America).

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#1476118 --- 09/19/15 05:59 PM Re: Recent illlegal display by the Cayuga on Co Rd 124 [Re: grinch]
Acenes Offline
Member

Registered: 05/15/15
Posts: 185
Originally Posted By: grinch
Originally Posted By: Acenes
Originally Posted By: grinch
I have been here since the very beginning of these threads and through the threats and intimidation perpetuated by the Cayuga and this is what I see and what I believed then and now.

99% of what is posted is garbage and the remaining 1% of fact has been disputed in courts and the Cayuga's lost. This is ancient history just as the control of the Cayuga’s over this land was. Yet there are those who continue to profess knowledge of the law and how it should apply. Save it for the courts and let the legal eagles handle that end of it. I for one do not feel inferior because some know the difference in the various courts and how the law is applied. Oh and I am sick to death of political correctness as those attempting to wrest political control spread their tainted message.

Most of us are just plain, uneducated lay people who know the basics and will post our opinions regardless of insults and attempts to put down the poster rather than his information.

This is what the many of us believe and no one is going to change our minds.


One cannot take a certain point in history such as the arrival of the Cayuga and say that any changes after their seizure of the land do not mean anything and it was and always will be Cayuga land. It was not then and certainly is not today. There were many here BEFORE the Cayuga and certainly before the Iroquois League became the dominant society. The Cayuga wrested control from the Algonquin as the most dominant society in its day and later the Cayuga were displaced by yet another more dominant society, the Europeans. The Indian lost the ability to govern and rule the land in the late 1700’s and early 1800’s and the little land remaining under their control was sold.

That is what happened, nothing we say will change those facts. They have been told in no uncertain terms they cannot just purchase land and declare it sovereign as they lost that governmental
authority centuries ago.


Civilization has advanced steadily and overwhelmed those who are resistant to change. Governments change, the nature of the population as well. Civilization marches on.


And so went the Cayuga and their brief tenancy of the land.







"Political correctness" is simply what people blame when they get called out for their bigoted and hateful tirades. Your opinion of history could not be more wrong. The federal courts have repeatedly ruled that the Cayugas have the right to purchase land and not pay taxes on it. No matter how much you cry, this is not going to change.

You justify Europeans taking this land by force. By that same logic you should be fine with the Cayuga returning en mass and taking the land back by force, correct?


It is very sad to read your postings as you attempt to prove something or other or to make an argument over things settled centuries ago. My statement does not need defending.
Are you all right? Do you need a little help towards actually understanding what happened in the past, why it happened and the situation today? Perhaps someone here can point you in the right direction to do some reading and research. You seem to read meaning in someone's post that is neither there or apparent to others. Perhaps a little reading on bigotry and racisim might help you to recognize it when it comes up.

Do you understand the rights and responsibilities of individual citizens or small business purchasing and owning properties? Rights everyone has including Indians and Tribal business. You seem to be confused on the issue concerning property ownership and governmental control. Perhaps you should review what SCOTUS actually said about Indians and Indian business paying taxes on land they own and why the matter is still before the courts. You may find your statement is inaccurate.


The Cayuga’s day in the sun ended long ago, they were not able to hold against a few then, today they have absolutely no chance of ever regaining something they never had. Live with it.


Oh I do admire your passion and tenacity as you fight your windmills in the sky.







I understand history perfectly, as you seem not to. No one can own property. The Earth owns US. You are entirely incorrect. Native American tribes do not have to pay taxes. This has already been established and no amount of crying is going to change that.

By your logic it is perfectly accept for Cayugas to engage in "terroristic" activities to take back the land, as that is white the whites did to them.

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#1476119 --- 09/19/15 06:00 PM Re: The Battle of Co Rt 124 [Re: bluezone]
Acenes Offline
Member

Registered: 05/15/15
Posts: 185
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Acenes
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Saphire
We live by the laws of 2015 not the 1700's


ever notice that none of the 'tribal supporters' ever give their land back to the 'tribe'



We would see the hateful bigots give theirs back first.


should we take that to mean that you still reside on land that is not years?

keep running in circles...





No one owns land. The lands owns you. You will be inside the Earth soon enough, do you still own it then? Get over yourself.

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#1476122 --- 09/19/15 07:10 PM Re: Recent illlegal display by the Cayuga on Co Rd 124 [Re: Acenes]
kyle585 Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 02/18/09
Posts: 19801
Loc: Somewhere out there
Originally Posted By: Acenes
I understand history perfectly, as you seem not to. No one can own property. The Earth owns US. You are entirely incorrect. Native American tribes do not have to pay taxes.
If no one owns property, no one should have to pay taxes. There would be no governments anywhere. There would just be complete anarchy all over the world. Sort of like what the North and South America were like before the Europeans came and civilized the continents now that I think about it.
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#1476125 --- 09/19/15 08:45 PM Re: Recent illlegal display by the Cayuga on Co Rd 124 [Re: Acenes]
kyle585 Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 02/18/09
Posts: 19801
Loc: Somewhere out there
Originally Posted By: Acenes
By your logic it is perfectly accept for Cayugas to engage in "terroristic" activities to take back the land, as that is white the whites did to them.
The Cayugas need to accept reality in 2015. A small group of them are never going to overthrow the most powerful military in the world. We have made them all American citizens and are inviting them to peacefully join us in the greatest nation the world has ever known.
_________________________
**** ATTENTION! BAD POLITICIANS ARE ELECTED BY GOOD PEOPLE WHO DON'T VOTE! ****

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#1476127 --- 09/19/15 08:50 PM Re: The Battle of Co Rt 124 [Re: Acenes]
hearallseeall Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/03/10
Posts: 1981
Loc: nolongerunder10pilesoftrash
Originally Posted By: Acenes
Originally Posted By: hearallseeall
Originally Posted By: Acenes
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Acenes
What don't you understand? It's not the sheriff, it's the department. It's the system. It's the way policing is a business now.
a business now? Was it better years ago? When and why did it change?

It was absolutely better years ago. When the law was just that...The law. Beginning in the '90's policing for profit began to come about. Municipalities began to realize just how much money they could make off non-violent tax-payers who commit victimless "Crimes". I bet you didn't know the Seneca county "correctional facility" and Five Points prison are both privately-run did you? Prisoners are treated as a commodity and the company that owns and operates these facilities make money off people being held their for non-violent and victimless crimes. Do the research.

You need to do YOUR research!!

How can anyone take you seriously when you're trying to tell us a Seneca COUNTY (C O U N T Y) Correctional Facility and a NY STATE (S T A T E) Prison are PRIVATELY owned.

Tell us this ACNE. Where did our NYS prisoner David Sweat end up??

Entirely wrong. Just because they have county or state after their name does not signify who owns them. Do some research on the CCA (Corrections Corporation of America).

Yes, We know you're entirely wrong.

In this case, it does signify who runs them. The county and state. What does the CCA have to do with SC and Five Points? The answer is nothing, it was a rhetorical question in case you did not get it.

I know people that work at SC and Five Points. They are SC and NYS employees.

Although this has nothing to do with the Indians. It has everything to do with the fact that you are posting about things you know NOTHING about. You think you know so you're just putting wrong information out there and then telling other people they are wrong.

Of course there are private run prisons. This is no secret.

Stop telling lies and learn what you are posting about before you post.

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#1476128 --- 09/19/15 08:57 PM Re: The Battle of Co Rt 124 [Re: Acenes]
hearallseeall Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/03/10
Posts: 1981
Loc: nolongerunder10pilesoftrash
Originally Posted By: Acenes
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Acenes
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Saphire
We live by the laws of 2015 not the 1700's


ever notice that none of the 'tribal supporters' ever give their land back to the 'tribe'



We would see the hateful bigots give theirs back first.


should we take that to mean that you still reside on land that is not years?

keep running in circles...





No one owns land. The lands owns you. You will be inside the Earth soon enough, do you still own it then? Get over yourself.

babble babble. goo goo. ga ga.

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#1476130 --- 09/19/15 09:07 PM Re: Recent illlegal display by the Cayuga on Co Rd 124 [Re: grinch]
Timbo Offline
Silver Member

Registered: 07/18/12
Posts: 14337
Loc: CNY
Originally Posted By: grinch
It is my thought the issue over unpaid land taxes can be solved by a local law stating no new purchase of land can occur until all taxes are paid on properties currently owned by the entity are paid.

This law would apply to all transfers of properties meaning everyone must comply or else the transaction cannot be recorded. It does not single out one group, but is applicable to all as our constitution requires.

I leave it to the legal authorities to determine the legality of such a law and if such a law could be passed.

It seems to be a simple solution. This does not solve payment of back taxes but should stop the accumulation of additional unpaid taxes.

Which in the case of Native Americans, would be unconstitutional at it's most fundamental level.
_________________________
Everyone's entitled to their own opinions, but not their own facts.

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#1476133 --- 09/20/15 04:32 AM Re: The Battle of Co Rt 124 [Re: hearallseeall]
kyle585 Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 02/18/09
Posts: 19801
Loc: Somewhere out there
Originally Posted By: hearallseeall
Originally Posted By: Acenes
Entirely wrong. Just because they have county or state after their name does not signify who owns them. Do some research on the CCA (Corrections Corporation of America).
In this case, it does signify who runs them. The county and state. What does the CCA have to do with SC and Five Points? The answer is nothing, it was a rhetorical question in case you did not get it.

I know people that work at SC and Five Points. They are SC and NYS employees.

Although this has nothing to do with the Indians. It has everything to do with the fact that you are posting about things you know NOTHING about. You think you know so you're just putting wrong information out there and then telling other people they are wrong.

Of course there are private run prisons. This is no secret.

Stop telling lies and learn what you are posting about before you post.
When I first read Acenes comment here I thought wow. I didn't know that. Now I realize he lied. I know someone who just retired from Five Points with a NYS Pension. Since he lied about this, how can I believe anything else he posts? Another Indian supporter bites the dust. There aren't many left.
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#1476135 --- 09/20/15 10:58 AM Re: The Battle of Co Rt 124 [Re: kyle585]
Timbo Offline
Silver Member

Registered: 07/18/12
Posts: 14337
Loc: CNY

Or far more likely, he instead may have mistakenly confused Five Points Correctional Facility with the Five Points, Florida area, where CCC sponsors many private correctional instititions.

Fortunately for you, Kyle, you yourself have never made a misstatement of fact on these forums before. Certainly not intentionally. crazy
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