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#1464373 --- 01/02/15 10:06 AM Re: Murder rate drops as concealed carry permits rise [Re: Lucinda Knotts]
sands Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/05/05
Posts: 8255
Loc: NY
Originally Posted By: Lucinda Knotts
What paranoid delusions do they suffer from that they argue for the "right" to be armed

Must be the same paranoid delusions shared by the authors of, "The Bill of Rights" whistle
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#1464374 --- 01/02/15 10:28 AM Re: Murder rate drops as concealed carry permits rise [Re: Lucinda Knotts]
Formermac Offline
Silver Member

Registered: 10/22/12
Posts: 12390
Loc: Above ground
Originally Posted By: Lucinda Knotts
Sorry, Mac, but what does be a conservative have to do with it? I believe there are a great many conservatives, even staunch defenders if the 2nd amendment, who don't feel the need to be carrying a gun everywhere they go.


I think that you've missed the sarcasm intended on my part Lucinda, every thing elicit from either two comes down to Liberalism/ Conservatism. How about the concept of being a human being with human compassion irrespective of political or personal belief?
I personally have a pistol permit but that doesn't negate the fact that I can relate to the reason(s) others hate the law, so to say that all Liberals hate gun laws and that all Conservatives are in favor of it is a total ignorant and uneducated misconception from the start.

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#1464375 --- 01/02/15 02:07 PM Re: Murder rate drops as concealed carry permits rise [Re: sands]
Formermac Offline
Silver Member

Registered: 10/22/12
Posts: 12390
Loc: Above ground
Originally Posted By: sands
Originally Posted By: Lucinda Knotts
What paranoid delusions do they suffer from that they argue for the "right" to be armed

[size:20pt]Must be the same paranoid delusions shared by the authors of, "The Bill of Rights" whistle [/size]



Based on the Bill of Rights if we are to interpret it from your perspective, "every male" of a age of 18 and above should have the right to bear arms. Unless.......like all statements you illicit, are iron clad and never been subject to debate or questioned over the centuries as it was debated before ratification . I now wonder why should our country need or possess a Military or Police State if we as citizens are capable and given the legal freedom of handling our own personal affairs? A few hints on change Sir.....we've evolved over the last 225 years or have we? The big question mark from your odd responses to Lucinda, should we be concern when the people that purchased a gun to protect themselves shoot their own adverse to the enemy or worse yet, die at the hand of the very entity meant to save their lives. Explain

http://news.discovery.com/human/the-historical-origin-of-the-second-amendment-121228.htm

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#1464378 --- 01/02/15 04:42 PM Re: Murder rate drops as concealed carry permits rise [Re: Formermac]
sands Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/05/05
Posts: 8255
Loc: NY
Originally Posted By: Formermac
A few hints on change Sir.....we've evolved over the last 225 years


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#1464379 --- 01/02/15 04:59 PM Re: Murder rate drops as concealed carry permits rise [Re: sands]
Formermac Offline
Silver Member

Registered: 10/22/12
Posts: 12390
Loc: Above ground
Excellent response, just as we thought, all gang bangers have just the same gun rights as you and I. Remember the Bill of Rights

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#1464383 --- 01/02/15 05:43 PM Re: Murder rate drops as concealed carry permits rise [Re: sands]
Lucinda Knotts Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/11/11
Posts: 4459
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: sands
Originally Posted By: Lucinda Knotts
What paranoid delusions do they suffer from that they argue for the "right" to be armed

Must be the same paranoid delusions shared by the author (FIFY) of, "The Bill of Rights" whistle
As usual, Sands, you choose to quote only the words that fit in with your nutty interpretation of the 2nd amendment. The author of the Bill of Rights (James Madison) was not known to carry a firearm on his person everywhere he went, nor were any of the founding fathers. Go ahead and check out any painting of the signing of the Constitution or the Declaration of Independence or any portrait of the time -- nary a firearm to be found. The Bill of Rights guarantees most citizens (not all) the right to own guns, not to carry them everywhere they go. Just plain common sense. And if you insist on being absolutely literal, show us where James Madison recommended carrying firearms everywhere -- did he ever mention Walmart? which you seem to lack,

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#1464384 --- 01/02/15 06:14 PM Re: Murder rate drops as concealed carry permits rise [Re: Lucinda Knotts]
sands Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/05/05
Posts: 8255
Loc: NY
Originally Posted By: Lucinda Knotts
show us where James Madison recommended carrying firearms everywhere -- did he ever mention Walmart?


"The right of the people to keep and bear arms in Walmart shall not be infringed. A well regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, trained to arms, is the best and most natural defense of a free country." - James Madison
laugh laugh laugh
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#1464385 --- 01/02/15 06:18 PM Re: Murder rate drops as concealed carry permits rise [Re: sands]
Formermac Offline
Silver Member

Registered: 10/22/12
Posts: 12390
Loc: Above ground
Originally Posted By: sands
Originally Posted By: Lucinda Knotts
show us where James Madison recommended carrying firearms everywhere -- did he ever mention Walmart?


laugh laugh laugh



laugh laugh laugh

The response you get when you've been check mated.

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#1464386 --- 01/02/15 06:24 PM Re: Murder rate drops as concealed carry permits rise [Re: Lucinda Knotts]
sands Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/05/05
Posts: 8255
Loc: NY
Originally Posted By: Lucinda Knotts
Must be the same paranoid delusions shared by the author authors of, "The Bill of Rights"


FIFY

The New United States of America Adopted the Bill of Rights
December 15, 1791
Mason had drafted the Virginia state constitution in 1776, asserting the principle of inalienable rights--certain individual rights that cannot be taken away.
Elected to the new House of Representatives, James Madison agreed with Mason. In the fall of 1789, he sponsored the first 10 amendments to the Constitution, speaking out on freedom of religion, speech, and the press. Ultimately, George Mason's views prevailed. When James Madison drafted the 10 amendments to the Constitution that were to become the Bill of Rights, he drew heavily upon the ideas put forth in the Virginia Declaration of Rights.

http://www.americaslibrary.gov/jb/nation/jb_nation_bofright_2.html
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#1464387 --- 01/02/15 06:30 PM Re: Murder rate drops as concealed carry permits rise [Re: sands]
Formermac Offline
Silver Member

Registered: 10/22/12
Posts: 12390
Loc: Above ground
Originally Posted By: sands
Originally Posted By: Lucinda Knotts
Must be the same paranoid delusions shared by the author authors of, "The Bill of Rights"


FIFY

The New United States of America Adopted the Bill of Rights
December 15, 1791
Mason had drafted the Virginia state constitution in 1776, asserting the principle of inalienable rights--certain individual rights that cannot be taken away.
Elected to the new House of Representatives, James Madison agreed with Mason. In the fall of 1789, he sponsored the first 10 amendments to the Constitution, speaking out on freedom of religion, speech, and the press. Ultimately, George Mason's views prevailed. When James Madison drafted the 10 amendments to the Constitution that were to become the Bill of Rights, he drew heavily upon the ideas put forth in the Virginia Declaration of Rights.

http://www.americaslibrary.gov/jb/nation/jb_nation_bofright_2.html


The response you get when you've been check mated

http://theprogressivecynic.com/debunking...comment-page-4/


“The 2nd Amendment guarantees the right to bear arms, thus gun control measures are unconstitutional.”

Those who make this argument are misinformed as to the original intent of the 2nd Amendment and have either been tricked by the modern gun lobby’s marketing or are actively perverting its meaning.

First, here is the text of the 2nd Amendment:

“A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.”

Gun enthusiasts and gun lobbyists love to cite the 2nd amendment to the constitution as the catch-all defense to their right to carry any weapon that they can get their hands on (ex. assault rifles). In order to do this, these gun owners/sellers have hopelessly perverted the original intent of the 2nd Amendment and have expanded its guarantee of the right to “keep and bear arms” far beyond its original bounds.

From its passage and until the late 20th century, the 2nd Amendment to the constitution was interpreted to protect the rights of states to maintain militias and for militiamen to sustain arsenals. In the early years of our country, there was no standing federal army (the founders were afraid of a national standing army consolidating power) and the states were expected to sustain a state militia in order to contribute to the national defense; this expectation necessitated protections for militias that would facilitate militiamen keeping weapons for their service.

The 2nd amendment was predicated upon the maintenance of state militias—something that has become irrelevant in the face of our federal armed services—and is not something that should have allowed individuals to claim the right to own weapons. State militias had the right to bear arms, but individual, unattached Americans had no such right—this distinction in the difference between the 2ndAmendment being a collective right or an individual right.

Chief Supreme Court Justice Warren Burger—a Republican—said the following about the proposal that the 2nd Amendment is aimed at protecting every American’s right to own guns:

“…one of the greatest pieces of fraud, I repeat the word ‘fraud,’ on the American public by special interest groups that I’ve ever seen in my life time. The real purpose of the Second Amendment was to ensure that state armies—the militias—would be maintained for the defense of the state. The very language of the Second Amendment refutes any argument that it was intended to guarantee every citizen an unfettered right to any kind of weapon he or she desires.”

As Justice Burger said in no uncertain terms, before gun lobbyists and activists began campaigning to change the understanding of the 2nd Amendment in the late 20th century, nobody considered it to be an individual right. Unfortunately, a decades-long concerted effort by gun lobbyists and big money conservatives has successfully shifted the meaning of the 2nd Amendment so that it can be used to justify letting anybody own any weapon that they choose.

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#1464388 --- 01/02/15 06:42 PM Re: Murder rate drops as concealed carry permits rise [Re: Formermac]
Formermac Offline
Silver Member

Registered: 10/22/12
Posts: 12390
Loc: Above ground

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#1464389 --- 01/02/15 06:49 PM Re: Murder rate drops as concealed carry permits rise [Re: Formermac]
sands Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/05/05
Posts: 8255
Loc: NY
Originally Posted By: Formermac
The response you get when you've been check mated

The response you give when you don't know "checkmated" is one word whistle
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#1464390 --- 01/02/15 06:55 PM Re: Murder rate drops as concealed carry permits rise [Re: sands]
Formermac Offline
Silver Member

Registered: 10/22/12
Posts: 12390
Loc: Above ground
Originally Posted By: sands
Originally Posted By: Formermac
The response you get when you've been check mated

The response you give when you don't know "checkmated" is one word whistle



LMBO, the response you get when your opponent has no legitimate comeback, so is now relegated to spell checking. laugh

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#1464392 --- 01/02/15 07:08 PM Re: Murder rate drops as concealed carry permits rise [Re: Formermac]
Formermac Offline
Silver Member

Registered: 10/22/12
Posts: 12390
Loc: Above ground

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#1464394 --- 01/02/15 08:10 PM Re: Murder rate drops as concealed carry permits rise [Re: Formermac]
Josephus Offline
Silver Member

Registered: 08/25/00
Posts: 11561
Loc: NYS
Originally Posted By: Formermac

From its passage and until the late 20th century, the 2nd Amendment to the constitution was interpreted to protect the rights of states to maintain militias and for militiamen to sustain arsenals. In the early years of our country, there was no standing federal army (the founders were afraid of a national standing army consolidating power) and the states were expected to sustain a state militia in order to contribute to the national defense; this expectation necessitated protections for militias that would facilitate militiamen keeping weapons for their service.

Chief Supreme Court Justice Warren Burger—a Republican—said the following about the proposal that the 2nd Amendment is aimed at protecting every American’s right to own guns:

“…one of the greatest pieces of fraud, I repeat the word ‘fraud,’ on the American public by special interest groups that I’ve ever seen in my life time. The real purpose of the Second Amendment was to ensure that state armies—the militias—would be maintained for the defense of the state. The very language of the Second Amendment refutes any argument that it was intended to guarantee every citizen an unfettered right to any kind of weapon he or she desires.”

BINGO! Although there had always been a standing army after the revolution, it was only the size of a brigade which would amount to about 800-1000 men at most. The defense of the nation rested largely on the militia, which came to us through English tradition. Every able-bodied man 16-60 was required to serve, and in the early days supply their own weapon and a specific amount of ammunition. THIS is what the forefathers were referring to in the 2nd amendment.
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#1464396 --- 01/02/15 09:00 PM Re: Murder rate drops as concealed carry permits rise [Re: sands]
Lucinda Knotts Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/11/11
Posts: 4459
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: sands
Originally Posted By: Lucinda Knotts
Must be the same paranoid delusions shared by the author authors of, "The Bill of Rights"


FIFY

The New United States of America Adopted the Bill of Rights
December 15, 1791
Mason had drafted the Virginia state constitution in 1776, asserting the principle of inalienable rights--certain individual rights that cannot be taken away.
Elected to the new House of Representatives, James Madison agreed with Mason. In the fall of 1789, he sponsored the first 10 amendments to the Constitution, speaking out on freedom of religion, speech, and the press. Ultimately, George Mason's views prevailed. When James Madison drafted the 10 amendments to the Constitution that were to become the Bill of Rights, he drew heavily upon the ideas put forth in the Virginia Declaration of Rights.

http://www.americaslibrary.gov/jb/nation/jb_nation_bofright_2.html


Nothing like stepping on your own tail, Sands. Madison may have drawn heavily on ideas in the Virginia Declaration of Rights but he is nevertheless the one person generally considered to have written the first ten amendments to the constitution.

But that's not what's at the heart of this -- whether Madison collaborated with others in writing those ten amendments is irrelevant (I guess the diversion from the principal subject is why you brought it up). The issue is whether the 2nd amendment permits every citizen to carry a gun (it doesn't) and whether it suggests that everyone should be armed wherever they go (it doesn't). Whenever someone is killed because of a poor decision made regarding carrying/owning a gun, you immediately starting flapping your gums about the sanctity of the 2nd amendment, trying to insert ideas about carrying a gun that have no basis in fact or in the constitution. Whether that's out of your own fear of people (is everyone you see a potential threat?) or your inability to deal with everyday life without relying on your crutch, i.e., guns, I don't know. But your overall attitude presents someone who is afraid and relies on wild interpretations of history to cope with your insecurities.

A woman dies tragically after being shot by her two year old son, causing some to question her judgment in carrying her gun while shopping, failing to keep her gun secure, placing it in a zippered pouch in her purse and walking far enough away to allow the child time to get the gun (or even someone else for that matter). And your response? Bring up another tragedy involving a little boy in a truck accidentally killing his sister. When someone questions the need to carry a gun at all times everywhere, you start spouting crap about the 2nd amendment. You seem to have a depraved indifference to such tragedies, as if they're all the same and just part of daily living, no big deal. Despite your delusions about guns keeping everyone safer and nonsensical ravings about the 2nd amendment, sad events such the one which occurred in Idaho make a pretty convincing case that you're full of crap.

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#1464404 --- 01/03/15 07:12 AM Re: Murder rate drops as concealed carry permits rise [Re: Josephus]
cwjga Offline
Silver Member

Registered: 11/06/08
Posts: 11266
Loc: NY
Originally Posted By: Josephus
Originally Posted By: Formermac

From its passage and until the late 20th century, the 2nd Amendment to the constitution was interpreted to protect the rights of states to maintain militias and for militiamen to sustain arsenals. In the early years of our country, there was no standing federal army (the founders were afraid of a national standing army consolidating power) and the states were expected to sustain a state militia in order to contribute to the national defense; this expectation necessitated protections for militias that would facilitate militiamen keeping weapons for their service.

Chief Supreme Court Justice Warren Burger—a Republican—said the following about the proposal that the 2nd Amendment is aimed at protecting every American’s right to own guns:

“…one of the greatest pieces of fraud, I repeat the word ‘fraud,’ on the American public by special interest groups that I’ve ever seen in my life time. The real purpose of the Second Amendment was to ensure that state armies—the militias—would be maintained for the defense of the state. The very language of the Second Amendment refutes any argument that it was intended to guarantee every citizen an unfettered right to any kind of weapon he or she desires.”

BINGO! Although there had always been a standing army after the revolution, it was only the size of a brigade which would amount to about 800-1000 men at most. The defense of the nation rested largely on the militia, which came to us through English tradition. Every able-bodied man 16-60 was required to serve, and in the early days supply their own weapon and a specific amount of ammunition. THIS is what the forefathers were referring to in the 2nd amendment.



Duh! By Jove I think he's got it.
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#1464409 --- 01/03/15 08:13 AM Re: Murder rate drops as concealed carry permits rise [Re: cwjga]
Lucinda Knotts Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/11/11
Posts: 4459
Loc: USA
So you're saying that woman in Idaho was simply "supplying her own weapon" for a militia and thereby her tragic death should somehow be construed to her fulfilling her civic duty? By Jove, you've hit an all time high in moronic replies, cwjie!

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#1464410 --- 01/03/15 08:30 AM Re: Murder rate drops as concealed carry permits rise [Re: Lucinda Knotts]
sands Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/05/05
Posts: 8255
Loc: NY
Originally Posted By: Lucinda Knotts
So you're saying that woman in Idaho was simply "supplying her own weapon" for a militia and thereby her tragic death should somehow be construed to her fulfilling her civic duty?





The Straw Man fallacy is committed when a person simply ignores a person's actual position and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version of that position. This sort of "reasoning" has the following pattern:

Person A has position X.
Person B presents position Y (which is a distorted version of X).
Person B attacks position Y.
Therefore X is false/incorrect/flawed.
This sort of "reasoning" is fallacious because attacking a distorted version of a position simply does not constitute an attack on the position itself. One might as well expect an attack on a poor drawing of a person to hurt the person.

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/straw-man.html
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#1464413 --- 01/03/15 09:32 AM Re: Murder rate drops as concealed carry permits rise [Re: sands]
Lucinda Knotts Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/11/11
Posts: 4459
Loc: USA
That appears to be a self portrait, Sands. Anything like you referring to truck accidents in response to a shooting? Shove the straw where it belongs.

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