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#1444024 --- 04/10/14 03:12 AM Re: Tribe not paying their fair share. [Re: Rich_Tallcot]
Timbo Offline
Silver Member

Registered: 07/18/12
Posts: 14706
Loc: CNY
Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
On my census forms I put "American". The land was conquered like many other lands throughout history including tribes conquering each other.

The tribes are neither naive nor ignorant of the rules. No one has blamed them for decisions their ancestors made. Like you selling your house, your great grandson may think you got taken advantage of. Oddly the Iroquois brag about influencing the Constitution and now complain about living under it. The unfortunate part is that tribal members do not have constitutional rights and little defense against their own governments which often claim sovereign immunity even against their own members. The rest of us are allowed to file lawsuits against our governments.

As for rights, equality under the law is and has slowly progressed for women, blacks and all minorities. Yes, Caucasians did come and conquer the land just as others have done since time immemorial and rules were established.

Your leading post where you claimed choosing to stay out of the debate pointed out that unless a family is indigenous to the Americas (North or South) they are in fact a descendant of immigrants.

And from that you evolved through admitting the first inhabitants were immigrants too and the native American has more of a justified claim of squatter's rights.

But basically squatter's rights is why the Cayuga lost their land claim in 2005 and the Oneida lost their lawsuit against Sherrill the same year. The rulings were based on laches, which includes the passage of time.

Your response to Kyle questioning race on forms leads with disappointment in him followed by stating his ideals of being superior in intellect are based on race. They you say he bragged about the fact that their lack of knowledge is their fault in getting the short end of the stick. Although he never said any such thing your preaching of white guilt leads to his apology. How Russell Means of you.

Wrapping you consider yourself as important as anyone else and I agree.

But then you claim the curiosity of why certain people believing themselves equal to others to the extent of having the audacity to demand rights that initially excluded them in the first place.

Of course that only applies to the minority class even though the minority of women are now the majority, claiming equal rights is not what the tribes are claiming, but rather the superior rights to be excluded from the laws which apply to everyone else.

Thank you for your input.

BS!

1) They were indeed ignorant of the details of several treaties and the fact is, that on more than one occasion, they were manipulated into signing agreements with the white man, where no one ever even provided the indians with translations as the Indians had absolutely NO English speaking representation. Some of the agreements were even changed, after the fact. Don't you dare have the unmitigated gall to suggest otherwise.

2) Yes. Rules that are rendered unenforceable by the terms of white mans own legal statutes.

3) It's called "The Beginning of Reparations", and with any luck, we have now just begun to see the onset of many, many more such reparations.
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#1444025 --- 04/10/14 03:17 AM Re: Tribe not paying their fair share. [Re: Rich_Tallcot]
Timbo Offline
Silver Member

Registered: 07/18/12
Posts: 14706
Loc: CNY
Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
That means that if Timbo lives in NY and is not on welfare or one of the squatters refusing to pay their taxes that he will be subsidizing everyone else's loss. But we cannot assume his status even though he claims all races are an amalgam but promotes racial superiority under the law by one race.

Not superiority... Restitution.

Exactly like you would receive if anyone else stole your property and sold it to someone else. The fact that you "purchased" stolen property, doesn't mean that you get to keep it. You Don't. It must be returned to it's rightful owner.

After that, take it up with the party that illegally sold it to you. That would probably be NY State, in this particular situation.


And FYI: I don't "claim" that they are an amalgam... they simply ARE. cool
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#1444027 --- 04/10/14 03:20 AM Re: Tribe not paying their fair share. [Re: Rich_Tallcot]
Timbo Offline
Silver Member

Registered: 07/18/12
Posts: 14706
Loc: CNY
Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
Are you really that far out of the loop? The tribe sued to stop the foreclosure proceedings and although SCOTUS ruled lands taxable in Sherrill which applies throughout the country, they did not rule on sovereign immunity because the Oneida dropped that defense. The CAYUGA foreclosure case has yet to get there.

Which does NOT preclude a legitimate argument for sovereignty in the future.
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#1444033 --- 04/10/14 07:44 AM Re: Tribe not paying their fair share. [Re: Timbo]
Rich_Tallcot Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/19/03
Posts: 5581
Loc: Greeneville, TN
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
Are you really that far out of the loop? The tribe sued to stop the foreclosure proceedings and although SCOTUS ruled lands taxable in Sherrill which applies throughout the country, they did not rule on sovereign immunity because the Oneida dropped that defense. The CAYUGA foreclosure case has yet to get there.

Which does NOT preclude a legitimate argument for sovereignty in the future.
Quite correct and that's where the Cayuga are heading. But Bay Mills may well diminish their sovereign immunity before they get there. Hopefully the tribes will pursue your arguments. That should make for a good laugh. The Oneida dropped that defense to prevent SCOTUS from ruling on it knowing it was created by SCOTUS to begin with.

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#1444034 --- 04/10/14 08:51 AM Re: Tribe not paying their fair share. [Re: Timbo]
Rich_Tallcot Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/19/03
Posts: 5581
Loc: Greeneville, TN
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
That means that if Timbo lives in NY and is not on welfare or one of the squatters refusing to pay their taxes that he will be subsidizing everyone else's loss. But we cannot assume his status even though he claims all races are an amalgam but promotes racial superiority under the law by one race.

Not superiority... Restitution.

Exactly like you would receive if anyone else stole your property and sold it to someone else. The fact that you "purchased" stolen property, doesn't mean that you get to keep it. You Don't. It must be returned to it's rightful owner.

After that, take it up with the party that illegally sold it to you. That would probably be NY State, in this particular situation.

And FYI: I don't "claim" that they are an amalgam... they simply ARE. cool
Thank you for clarifying that your promotion of racial superiority is restitution for an amalgam race.

Nope, no property stolen in NY. I sold mine. You lie so much you believe your own lies.

Treaties were well understood and the State paid 100 times the going rate for what the US was paying. The Oneida sold their use rights in 42 different transactions. It was rather obvious after the first transaction that they were SELLING their use rights and they did so 41 more times.

Better pour another beer and continue your cry.

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#1444036 --- 04/10/14 09:08 AM Re: Tribe not paying their fair share. [Re: Formermac]
Rich_Tallcot Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/19/03
Posts: 5581
Loc: Greeneville, TN
Originally Posted By: Formermac
Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
Are you really that far out of the loop? The tribe sued to stop the foreclosure proceedings and although SCOTUS ruled lands taxable in Sherrill which applies throughout the country, they did not rule on sovereign immunity because the Oneida dropped that defense. The CAYUGA foreclosure case has yet to get there.


I live in Pennsylvania, so to your question, I am out of the loop. Sounds to me that your legal costs far out weigh the tax levies you're missing out on. Did I read that there's the possibility of a new casino in Waterloo somewhere. What are the chances of that being built and what impact does that have on County taxes and land being transferred to the Indians or is that a non Indian venture?
Ah, but if the common rhetoric argument of nobody owns the land is accepted at face value then the land was not theirs.

The State is reimbursing the counties for taxes and will likely pay the legal costs as they did in Oneida and Madison counties.

The Waterloo venture is not tribal and, unlike tribal, will contribute considerably to the tax base.

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#1444045 --- 04/10/14 11:19 AM Re: Tribe not paying their fair share. [Re: Rich_Tallcot]
Formermac Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 10/22/12
Posts: 15584
Loc: Above ground
Again it sounds as if this becomes a burden on NY state taxpayer now. In regard to your "rhetoric" of who's land is it, common sense has dictated that "that's debatable" since this lawsuit has been ongoing back and forth for how many years?....as stated, at the expense of NYS tax payers just for the UCE and other entities to make a point/principal because you're not winning the war.
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#1444046 --- 04/10/14 11:20 AM Re: Tribe not paying their fair share. [Re: Rich_Tallcot]
kyle585 Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 02/18/09
Posts: 19801
Loc: Somewhere out there
Thanks Rich for all your replies. Your vast knowledge is so much appreciated on here by me and others.
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#1444047 --- 04/10/14 11:23 AM Re: Tribe not paying their fair share. [Re: Formermac]
kyle585 Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 02/18/09
Posts: 19801
Loc: Somewhere out there
Originally Posted By: Formermac
Again it sounds as if this becomes a burden on NY state taxpayer now. In regard to your "rhetoric" of who's land is it, common sense has dictated that "that's debatable" since this lawsuit has been ongoing back and forth for how many years?....as stated, at the expense of NYS tax payers just for the UCE and other entities to make a point/principal because you're not winning the war.
So we should just give up and give all the land back to the Indians? That includes the land you owned and you said you hated that you did not have clear title to it when you owned it. I guess it looks different now that you sold it and left the state?
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#1444048 --- 04/10/14 11:25 AM Re: Tribe not paying their fair share. [Re: Rich_Tallcot]
kyle585 Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 02/18/09
Posts: 19801
Loc: Somewhere out there
Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
The Waterloo venture is not tribal and, unlike tribal, will contribute considerably to the tax base.
But the Indians are trying to get approval for another casino in a Rochester suburb which would of course affect the Seneca County casino which is actually in the town of Tyre near the Thruway exit.


Edited by kyle585 (04/10/14 11:33 AM)
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#1444054 --- 04/10/14 12:00 PM Re: Tribe not paying their fair share. [Re: kyle585]
Formermac Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 10/22/12
Posts: 15584
Loc: Above ground
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
The Waterloo venture is not tribal and, unlike tribal, will contribute considerably to the tax base.
But the Indians are trying to get approval for another casino in a Rochester suburb which would of course affect the Seneca County casino which is actually in the town of Tyre near the Thruway exit.


You've just bought up a valid argument that many US residents have made for years, we initially gave sovereign nations the permission to build casinos on their property, churches and associates are tax exempted along with certain universities & colleges, hospitals, certain clubs such as the Knights of Columbus, schools, not for profit organizations....the list goes on. What no one anticipated was the amount of capital these casinos would generated but better yet, maybe you should question the motives of those who are the primary patrons(not Native Americans) in these casinos, smoke shops and gas stations generating millions.I find it hypocritical on all our part to vacillate on laws and regulations, depending on the impositions or advantages it creates for us. I grew up in the state of New York and have a recurring question.....how did man create laws that gave him permission to take public lakes(public property managed by the state), in this case the Finger lakes, sell lake front property to private individuals who in turn land lock the public lake to the extent that this lake has only 1 or 2 access points for the public to utilize the still public lake?
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#1444056 --- 04/10/14 12:13 PM Re: Tribe not paying their fair share. [Re: kyle585]
Formermac Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 10/22/12
Posts: 15584
Loc: Above ground
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Formermac
Again it sounds as if this becomes a burden on NY state taxpayer now. In regard to your "rhetoric" of who's land is it, common sense has dictated that "that's debatable" since this lawsuit has been ongoing back and forth for how many years?....as stated, at the expense of NYS tax payers just for the UCE and other entities to make a point/principal because you're not winning the war.
So we should just give up and give all the land back to the Indians? That includes the land you owned and you said you hated that you did not have clear title to it when you owned it. I guess it looks different now that you sold it and left the state?


I find your ability to convolute words astounding. I owned the property and had a clear title which was clear for decades. Lawsuits were taken up by the Native American questioning who in fact is the ORIGINAL owner. If Interlaken NY is still in fact in Seneca County, I still own property given to me by my mother. Ascertain some facts before making one self appear stupid, which you appear to be doing based on what you THINK you know about me. crazy
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#1444059 --- 04/10/14 12:33 PM Re: Tribe not paying their fair share. [Re: ]
Formermac Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 10/22/12
Posts: 15584
Loc: Above ground
Originally Posted By: Fritz
Originally Posted By: Formermac
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Formermac
Again it sounds as if this becomes a burden on NY state taxpayer now. In regard to your "rhetoric" of who's land is it, common sense has dictated that "that's debatable" since this lawsuit has been ongoing back and forth for how many years?....as stated, at the expense of NYS tax payers just for the UCE and other entities to make a point/principal because you're not winning the war.
So we should just give up and give all the land back to the Indians? That includes the land you owned and you said you hated that you did not have clear title to it when you owned it. I guess it looks different now that you sold it and left the state?


I find your ability to convolute words astounding. I owned the property and had a clear title which was clear for decades. Lawsuits were taken up by the Native American questioning who in fact is the ORIGINAL owner. If Interlaken NY is still in fact in Seneca County, I still own property given to me by my mother. Ascertain some facts before making one self appear stupid, which you appear to be doing based on what you THINK you know about me. crazy



Ahahahahahahahaha...is convolute the word of the day?



Had to look it up first before you commented. How many ice packs and bottles of makeup do certain people purchase on a monthly basis Tom? Not to mention the prescriptions needed to keep you on track seeing that this topic has nothing to do with your personal daily struggles.
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#1444061 --- 04/10/14 12:58 PM Re: Tribe not paying their fair share. [Re: Formermac]
kyle585 Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 02/18/09
Posts: 19801
Loc: Somewhere out there
Originally Posted By: Formermac
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Formermac
Again it sounds as if this becomes a burden on NY state taxpayer now. In regard to your "rhetoric" of who's land is it, common sense has dictated that "that's debatable" since this lawsuit has been ongoing back and forth for how many years?....as stated, at the expense of NYS tax payers just for the UCE and other entities to make a point/principal because you're not winning the war.
So we should just give up and give all the land back to the Indians? That includes the land you owned and you said you hated that you did not have clear title to it when you owned it. I guess it looks different now that you sold it and left the state?
I find your ability to convolute words astounding. I owned the property and had a clear title which was clear for decades. Lawsuits were taken up by the Native American questioning who in fact is the ORIGINAL owner. If Interlaken NY is still in fact in Seneca County, I still own property given to me by my mother. Ascertain some facts before making one self appear stupid, which you appear to be doing based on what you THINK you know about me. crazy
Huh? Wow. What a change of heart you seem to have had now in the few days since you started posting on this thread.
Originally Posted By: Formermac
I lived in Seneca County at one time and hated the fact that land I purchased in 1978 along deeds dating back to 1868 could be now treated as if I never owned it in the first place.


Edited by kyle585 (04/10/14 01:02 PM)
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#1444062 --- 04/10/14 01:15 PM Re: Tribe not paying their fair share. [Re: kyle585]
Formermac Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 10/22/12
Posts: 15584
Loc: Above ground
Not a change of heart or venue, I still hate that position but fully understand the Native American's stance. If you care to go back....and take a second look at my posting, you'll note no vacillation.....I only note someone as yourself grasping for anything they deem viable to make their case. Now back to my statement of hypocrisy. One of the last times I went back home, I pass the gas station on Route 89.....it was pack to capacity then some....LMAO. They tell me that in basic corporate survival.....you need to "starve" out the competition. Of course you've never heard of business going under due to the lack of patrons....Circuit City & a few others realize the inevitable, didn't they? Hard to fight the urge to buy that cheap gas and cigarettes? Apparently your fellow Seneca County residents haven't figured out that concept of supply and demand.
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#1444064 --- 04/10/14 01:23 PM Re: Tribe not paying their fair share. [Re: Formermac]
Formermac Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 10/22/12
Posts: 15584
Loc: Above ground
Originally Posted By: Formermac
In your post another example of the Indians taking advantage of our judicial system. And then you say we are not being fair to them? We are being more than fair. along with negotiating skills

I almost spit my coffee, if I didn't know better, it's appears that you're implying that the White man possess the ability to come to a foreign land, make up it's own set of rules leaning heavily in his favor and take advantage of the Native's naiveté or ignorance of the rules,now to brag about the fact that their lack of knowledge is their fault in getting the short end of the stick. Wow!

Kyle do you see a pattern here? we understand why many people are at a disadvantage , no fault of there own but it's easier to continue to blame them for their own downfall. How Superior of you.



Kyle, I guess that this post shows my hatred and difficulties understanding the Native American' position. whistle
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#1444065 --- 04/10/14 01:29 PM Re: Tribe not paying their fair share. [Re: Formermac]
tubby Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/12/08
Posts: 1341
Loc: N.Y.
Nice backpedaling do you now understand that my Indian neighbor is not paying taxes on his residential property and admit that you have no clue about this topic ?


Edited by tubby (04/10/14 01:29 PM)

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#1444067 --- 04/10/14 01:44 PM Re: Tribe not paying their fair share. [Re: tubby]
Formermac Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 10/22/12
Posts: 15584
Loc: Above ground
Originally Posted By: tubby
Nice backpedaling do you now understand that my Indian neighbor is not paying taxes on his residential property and admit that you have no clue about this topic ?


I thought that I was very explicit in that regard, seeing that I own a piece of property in Interlaken and sold my house in Romulus, gives me all rights to comment, even if I've never own one piece of sidewalk there, I still have that given right. You and Kyle's apparent self appointment of a UCE carryover to the forum just don't wash Sir. Now to address your supposed valid argument, I've listed 10s of instances of Seneca County extending tax abatements, exemption and special treatment....is it fair? Native American getting the same privileges seems to be your point of contention....it appears the issue needs to taken up with the Federal government,State and County, who passed these laws, which brings up my debate, show me where the Native American agree to pay taxes in the first place or was it only assumed that they would pay because taxes were paid by the previous owner. The fact that this property was purchased in the name Cayuga Nation should have raised flags years ago, being that they're a sovereign nation. Someone in Seneca Fall failed to do their homework and it appears that maybe they don't have a "clue" on this topic.
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#1444069 --- 04/10/14 02:13 PM Re: Tribe not paying their fair share. [Re: Formermac]
tubby Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/12/08
Posts: 1341
Loc: N.Y.
I'll try to keep it simple for your feeble intellect,I said that my Indian neighbor was not paying taxes on his residential property and you began calling me names and denying that it is true.
Originally Posted By: Formermac
Originally Posted By: tubby
An individual Indian buys the house next door to me and pays NO taxes.


You care to confirm that instead of us just taking your flapping gums as fact. I even offered you a tool (the link) to ascertain or look up your supposition.

lets try it again

http://www.tax.ny.gov/pit/property/assess/local/asmt45.htm

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#1444071 --- 04/10/14 02:31 PM Re: Tribe not paying their fair share. [Re: Formermac]
VM Smith Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 11/29/05
Posts: 38160
Loc: Ship of Fools
Quote:
show me where the Native American agree to pay taxes in the first place


It doesn't matter whether he agrees to or not. He's legally required to pay.
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