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#1443895 --- 04/09/14 05:44 AM Re: Tribe not paying their fair share. [Re: kyle585]
kyle585 Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 02/18/09
Posts: 19801
Loc: Somewhere out there
Originally Posted By: Formermac
The bottom line here is the White man has the expertise of the laws he created along with vast amounts of resources to make this lawsuit nullified for the most part and at best offer "trinkets" in lieu of a realistic settlement.
We bought Alaska from Russia for only a tiny fraction of what it was worth. Do we now owe Russia some money for taking advantage of their poor negotating skills?
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#1443896 --- 04/09/14 06:09 AM Re: Tribe not paying their fair share. [Re: kyle585]
Formermac Offline
Silver Member

Registered: 10/22/12
Posts: 12881
Loc: Above ground
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Formermac
my father was half Native American and half Black, would make me what?
Have you ever had to fill out a form where it asked what your race was? Like a census form? What do you put?


I am disappointed in your perception of always assuming yourself right Kyle, a very pathetic position on your part to question a person's ethnicity because it doesn't fit your ideals of being superior in intellect. Mines was a position to stay somewhat neutral in the debate between you and Timbo but it appears that Timbo is somewhat correct in his accusation of racism or at least it's connotations. I have always consider myself as Black, the same as my father, who is also native American.(Mother was Cherokee). Further more your ignorance(your self perceived intelligence) is rearing it's ugly head in yours and VM's attempts to question the rights of those you've actual don't know, in this case the path offered to minorities over the last 500 years here in America. Very pathetic to say the least Kyle. SMH

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#1443897 --- 04/09/14 06:22 AM Re: Tribe not paying their fair share. [Re: Formermac]
Formermac Offline
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Registered: 10/22/12
Posts: 12881
Loc: Above ground
In your post another example of the Indians taking advantage of our judicial system. And then you say we are not being fair to them? We are being more than fair. along with negotiating skills

I almost spit my coffee, if I didn't know better, it's appears that you're implying that the White man possess the ability to come to a foreign land, make up it's own set of rules leaning heavily in his favor and take advantage of the Native's naiveté or ignorance of the rules,now to brag about the fact that their lack of knowledge is their fault in getting the short end of the stick. Wow!

Kyle do you see a pattern here? we understand why many people are at a disadvantage , no fault of there own but it's easier to continue to blame them for their own downfall. How Superior of you.


Edited by Formermac (04/09/14 06:26 AM)

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#1443898 --- 04/09/14 06:33 AM Re: Tribe not paying their fair share. [Re: Formermac]
kyle585 Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 02/18/09
Posts: 19801
Loc: Somewhere out there
Originally Posted By: Formermac
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Formermac
my father was half Native American and half Black, would make me what?
Have you ever had to fill out a form where it asked what your race was? Like a census form? What do you put?
I am disappointed in your perception of always assuming yourself right Kyle, a very pathetic position on your part to question a person's ethnicity because it doesn't fit your ideals of being superior in intellect.
Oh I didn't mean any offense to you because of your mixed race. I apologize. I was just curious on how you handled such a situation.
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#1443899 --- 04/09/14 06:38 AM Re: Tribe not paying their fair share. [Re: Formermac]
kyle585 Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 02/18/09
Posts: 19801
Loc: Somewhere out there
Originally Posted By: Formermac
In your post another example of the Indians taking advantage of our judicial system. And then you say we are not being fair to them? We are being more than fair. along with negotiating skills I almost spit my coffee, if I didn't know better, it's appears that you're implying that the White man possess the ability to come to a foreign land, make up it's own set of rules leaning heavily in his favor and take advantage of the Native's naiveté or ignorance of the rules,now to brag about the fact that their lack of knowledge is their fault in getting the short end of the stick. Wow!
Once again, I think you misinterpret when I meant to say. I am sure hundreds of years ago what you said was true. But in the current world and legal environment they and the lawyers they have hired now very well know how to play our legal system to their advantage.
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#1443900 --- 04/09/14 06:47 AM Re: Tribe not paying their fair share. [Re: kyle585]
Formermac Offline
Silver Member

Registered: 10/22/12
Posts: 12881
Loc: Above ground
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Formermac
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Formermac
my father was half Native American and half Black, would make me what?
Have you ever had to fill out a form where it asked what your race was? Like a census form? What do you put?
I am disappointed in your perception of always assuming yourself right Kyle, a very pathetic position on your part to question a person's ethnicity because it doesn't fit your ideals of being superior in intellect.
Oh I didn't mean any offense to you because of your mixed race. I apologize. I was just curious on how you handled such a situation.


For the most part, I have no problems handling anything being that I was instill with the perception that I am as important as anyone else but occasionally I'll encounter the very debate or mindset we're discussing, the curiosity of why certain people believing themselves equal to others to the extent of having the audacity to demand rights that initially excluded them in the first place.......The Nerve of them! wink

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#1443901 --- 04/09/14 07:05 AM Re: Tribe not paying their fair share. [Re: kyle585]
Formermac Offline
Silver Member

Registered: 10/22/12
Posts: 12881
Loc: Above ground
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Formermac
In your post another example of the Indians taking advantage of our judicial system. And then you say we are not being fair to them? We are being more than fair. along with negotiating skills I almost spit my coffee, if I didn't know better, it's appears that you're implying that the White man possess the ability to come to a foreign land, make up it's own set of rules leaning heavily in his favor and take advantage of the Native's naiveté or ignorance of the rules,now to brag about the fact that their lack of knowledge is their fault in getting the short end of the stick. Wow!
Once again, I think you misinterpret when I meant to say. I am sure hundreds of years ago what you said was true. But in the current world and legal environment they and the lawyers they have hired now very well know how to play our legal system to their advantage.


I'm very happy that they now have legal assistance to "play" the system to their advantage. Note sarcasm being that the biggest hurdle for most lawyers is interpreting the laws written by the very one wanting the advantages. Read up on civil and basic human rights provided initially for people of color and women. Are you implying that it will always be encumbered on the complainant's behalf to sue or beg for facilitation of those rights versus having them at time offered to them on a volunteer basis? I'm so glad that our founding fathers had the foresight to anticipate these problems and set aside amendments to be readily place in our Constitution when appropriate.

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#1443902 --- 04/09/14 07:10 AM Re: Tribe not paying their fair share. [Re: Formermac]
kyle585 Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 02/18/09
Posts: 19801
Loc: Somewhere out there
Originally Posted By: Formermac
For the most part, I have no problems handling anything being that I was instill with the perception that I am as important as anyone else but occasionally I'll encounter the very debate or mindset we're discussing, the curiosity of why certain people believing themselves equal to others to the extent of having the audacity to demand rights that initially excluded them in the first place.......The Nerve of them! wink
I think everyone should be of mixed race. Then no one could claim racism. I would love to see enough interbreeding between the races that someday in the future there is only one race. The human race.


Edited by kyle585 (04/09/14 07:26 AM)
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#1443903 --- 04/09/14 07:12 AM Re: Tribe not paying their fair share. [Re: Formermac]
kyle585 Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 02/18/09
Posts: 19801
Loc: Somewhere out there
Originally Posted By: Formermac
Read up on civil and basic human rights provided initially for people of color and women.
Oh initially I agree totally. But it has gotten much better in the last generation or two, has it not?
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#1443904 --- 04/09/14 07:14 AM Re: Tribe not paying their fair share. [Re: Formermac]
kyle585 Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 02/18/09
Posts: 19801
Loc: Somewhere out there
Originally Posted By: Formermac
Are you implying that it will always be encumbered on the complainant's behalf to sue or beg for facilitation of those rights versus having them at time offered to them on a volunteer basis?
No of course not. What rights are currently being denied to people in the USA based on their race, creed, color, or national origin?


Edited by kyle585 (04/09/14 07:27 AM)
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#1443905 --- 04/09/14 07:19 AM Re: Tribe not paying their fair share. [Re: Formermac]
kyle585 Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 02/18/09
Posts: 19801
Loc: Somewhere out there
Originally Posted By: Formermac
I'm so glad that our founding fathers had the foresight to anticipate these problems and set aside amendments to be readily place in our Constitution when appropriate.
I am very glad for that also. The USA is not perfect but I think we have made great strides in the last 150 years to try and give everyone equal rights. VM mentioned the Chinese potentially getting to America before the white Europeans. If the Native Americans were living under Communist Chinese rule they would certainly have none of the rights guaranteed to them in the US constitution.
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#1443906 --- 04/09/14 07:31 AM Re: Tribe not paying their fair share. [Re: Formermac]
kyle585 Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 02/18/09
Posts: 19801
Loc: Somewhere out there
Originally Posted By: Formermac
I'm very happy that they now have legal assistance to "play" the system to their advantage. Note sarcasm being that the biggest hurdle for most lawyers is interpreting the laws written by the very one wanting the advantages.
You don't think the Indians have lawyers capable of interpreting the law? I disagree with that.

http://www.americanindianservices.org/

Native Americans are struggling to create new better prospects for their people. Since 1958, AIS has designed many valuable programs which assist them towards self-sufficiency and building better communities. Chief among these is providing scholarships for needy Native Americans to attend colleges and vocational schools. There are many bright young students from various tribes who qualify academically for a college education. Yet, after high school, they have no means to pay college tuition.

Education is the permanent solution that benefits both the individual and the community. As doctors, educators, nurses, lawyers, entrepreneurs, social workers, business people, and computer specialists, Native Americans are in a position to become productive individuals, to support their families, and to help their communities maintain and build on their Native American cultural heritage.

AIS has found that the most successful formula is for students to earn half of their own tuition. Then AIS provides a scholarship for the other half. Overhead expenses for the foundation are minimal and lean, and they are all being paid by independent sources. This means that 100% of your contribution goes directly to provide scholarships. Education is truly the gift that keeps on giving. There is no end to the good your contribution will do...now and for generations to come. Thank you.

Steve Young, San Francisco 49ers (retired)


Edited by kyle585 (04/09/14 07:37 AM)
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#1443907 --- 04/09/14 07:45 AM Re: Tribe not paying their fair share. [Re: kyle585]
Formermac Offline
Silver Member

Registered: 10/22/12
Posts: 12881
Loc: Above ground
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Formermac
I'm so glad that our founding fathers had the foresight to anticipate these problems and set aside amendments to be readily place in our Constitution when appropriate.
I am very glad for that also. The USA is not perfect but I think we have made great strides in the last 150 years to try and give everyone equal rights. VM mentioned the Chinese potentially getting to America before the white Europeans. If the Native Americans were living under Communist Chinese rule they would certainly have none of the rights guaranteed to them in the US constitution.



My father had one saying "Pull yourself up by your boot straps" but also remember that some need to have a pair of boots to do that.

We need to define the operative word here "TRY" From Webster's definition that can be found anywhere between very little effort to great determination. We can't negate the fact that White Europeans have for the greatest share of US history been in the driver seat in regard to it's citizen rights. When what you've "try" to imply to be true in our country making great advancements in equality, our history will record a government having women and people of color in abundant quantities, also those same individuals possessing large chunk of land, running Corporation and business. All things being "equal" Native Americans, Blacks and Women make up approximately 60% of our US population. Someone on the Non-Minority side appears to not be "trying" hard enough. Kyle, I've always consider us to have an amicable relationship here on the forum, I choose to keep it that way, so I bid you adieu but I have a question before leaving......if we had a country primarily possessing individuals having your personal beliefs, would my dream of a equally balanced nation be a reality today?

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#1443909 --- 04/09/14 11:01 AM Re: Tribe not paying their fair share. [Re: kyle585]
Timbo Offline
Silver Member

Registered: 07/18/12
Posts: 14386
Loc: CNY
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Formermac
In your post another example of the Indians taking advantage of our judicial system. And then you say we are not being fair to them? We are being more than fair. along with negotiating skills I almost spit my coffee, if I didn't know better, it's appears that you're implying that the White man possess the ability to come to a foreign land, make up it's own set of rules leaning heavily in his favor and take advantage of the Native's naiveté or ignorance of the rules,now to brag about the fact that their lack of knowledge is their fault in getting the short end of the stick. Wow!
Once again, I think you misinterpret when I meant to say. I am sure hundreds of years ago what you said was true. But in the current world and legal environment they and the lawyers they have hired now very well know how to play our legal system to their advantage.

The student has become the master.
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Everyone's entitled to their own opinions, but not their own facts.

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#1443911 --- 04/09/14 11:07 AM Re: Tribe not paying their fair share. [Re: kyle585]
Timbo Offline
Silver Member

Registered: 07/18/12
Posts: 14386
Loc: CNY
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Formermac
For the most part, I have no problems handling anything being that I was instill with the perception that I am as important as anyone else but occasionally I'll encounter the very debate or mindset we're discussing, the curiosity of why certain people believing themselves equal to others to the extent of having the audacity to demand rights that initially excluded them in the first place.......The Nerve of them! wink
I think everyone should be of mixed race. Then no one could claim racism. I would love to see enough interbreeding between the races that someday in the future there is only one race. The human race.

Everyone IS of mixed race. That fact is not mutually exclusive of the propensity towards racism.
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Everyone's entitled to their own opinions, but not their own facts.

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#1443912 --- 04/09/14 11:12 AM Re: Tribe not paying their fair share. [Re: kyle585]
Timbo Offline
Silver Member

Registered: 07/18/12
Posts: 14386
Loc: CNY
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Formermac
Are you implying that it will always be encumbered on the complainant's behalf to sue or beg for facilitation of those rights versus having them at time offered to them on a volunteer basis?
No of course not. What rights are currently being denied to people in the USA based on their race, creed, color, or national origin?

Apparently you don't go on many job interviews with dark skin. Or experience the phenomenon of "driving while black", or earn on average 3/4 of what men do (especially white men).

And don't come back with with some ridiculous reply like "those aren't examples of rights". They are precise examples of systematic institutional and social discrimination. The end result is no different.
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Everyone's entitled to their own opinions, but not their own facts.

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#1443913 --- 04/09/14 11:23 AM Re: Tribe not paying their fair share. [Re: kyle585]
Timbo Offline
Silver Member

Registered: 07/18/12
Posts: 14386
Loc: CNY
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Formermac
I'm so glad that our founding fathers had the foresight to anticipate these problems and set aside amendments to be readily place in our Constitution when appropriate.
I am very glad for that also. The USA is not perfect but I think we have made great strides in the last 150 years to try and give everyone equal rights. VM mentioned the Chinese potentially getting to America before the white Europeans. If the Native Americans were living under Communist Chinese rule they would certainly have none of the rights guaranteed to them in the US constitution.

That's an utterly irrelevant analogy. One set of events actually happened, the other, did NOT.

Stick to history and the facts. VM is chock-full of meaningless imaginings and hypotheticals that serve no valid function in as it relates this or most any other discussion.
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#1443914 --- 04/09/14 11:24 AM Re: Tribe not paying their fair share. [Re: Timbo]
Formermac Offline
Silver Member

Registered: 10/22/12
Posts: 12881
Loc: Above ground
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Formermac
Are you implying that it will always be encumbered on the complainant's behalf to sue or beg for facilitation of those rights versus having them at time offered to them on a volunteer basis?
No of course not. What rights are currently being denied to people in the USA based on their race, creed, color, or national origin?
Apparently you don't go on job interviews with dark skin. Or experience the phenomenon of "driving while black", or earn on average 3/4 of what men do (especially white men).

And don't come back with with some ridiculous reply like "those aren't examples of rights". They are precise examples of systematic institutional and social discrimination. The end result is no different.


Apparently he has never met a women that is more educated or skilled than many men but must settle for the same pay you've mentioned, 3/4 of what her White male counter part expects and nothing less.

I'm reminded of the old saying

What is the difference between knowledge and wisdom? Knowledge is gained by gathering data, whereas, Wisdom is earned by going through actual life experiences.


Master Jin Kwon quotes

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#1443915 --- 04/09/14 11:33 AM Re: Tribe not paying their fair share. [Re: Timbo]
Formermac Offline
Silver Member

Registered: 10/22/12
Posts: 12881
Loc: Above ground
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Formermac
Are you implying that it will always be encumbered on the complainant's behalf to sue or beg for facilitation of those rights versus having them at time offered to them on a volunteer basis?
No of course not. What rights are currently being denied to people in the USA based on their race, creed, color, or national origin?

Apparently you don't go on many job interviews with dark skin. Or experience the phenomenon of "driving while black", or earn on average 3/4 of what men do (especially white men).

And don't come back with with some ridiculous reply like "those aren't examples of rights". They are precise examples of systematic institutional and social discrimination. The end result is no different.



Apparently Kyle spoke to Harley in regard to the last Presidential Election, both vehemently denies that voter suppression ever took place, particularly in minority laden areas. Kyle is right.......See how far the Blacks have progressed since the Jim Crow era.

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#1443916 --- 04/09/14 11:46 AM Re: $895 Million Owed NY by Tribes [Re: Rich_Tallcot]
Timbo Offline
Silver Member

Registered: 07/18/12
Posts: 14386
Loc: CNY
Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
My research has included studying original documents in the National Archives, reading the actual treaties and much more. As I told Timbo, maybe he better write the University of Rochester and tell them the missionaries lied. Google searches are Timmy's fore' and they have not done him much good so far.

Then you are a perfect illustration of the old saying that goes "Apes can read Shakespeare, they just can't understand it". grin
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