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#1443858 --- 04/08/14 07:53 PM Re: Tribe not paying their fair share. [Re: Timbo]
kyle585 Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 02/18/09
Posts: 19801
Loc: Somewhere out there
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Formermac
I've read & heard that very story since I was a kid being that my Maternal Grandmother is Native American, no argument in that fact, 25,000 years which can be debated give or take a few thousand adverse to 500 years which is well documented throughout history. The premise here, the native American has more of a justified claim of squatter's rights if that term may be used. So as you stated, no indigenous people exist technically, maybe with the exception of those created in the Garden of Eden.
So in the year 2104 what do you think we should do to be fair to everyone no matter when their ancestors came to the American continents? I see that as the key question that needs to be answered. Should you pay less taxes because you are 1/4 Native American?
As far as the tax issue goes... in general, yes. I'm sure some criteria would be required in order to establish some semblance of "fairness".
So you think that someone who is 1/4 Indian should pay less taxes than a white man?
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#1443859 --- 04/08/14 07:57 PM Re: $895 Million Owed NY by Tribes [Re: Timbo]
kyle585 Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 02/18/09
Posts: 19801
Loc: Somewhere out there
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Timbo
To ask why I oppose equality under the law based on ethnicity is proof that you are talking to yourself because I am for equality under the law regardless of ethnicity.
To start with, I never asked, said, hinted at, nor suggested that you oppose anything. It would therefore seem that you are sorely lacking proof of anything.
I oppose special rights for Indians or any American citizen and it is obvious Rich does also. Is that clear enough? What is your position on the Indian debacle? You refuse to say. If I try and drag a position out of you, you fall back on your old tired line of having words put in your mouth. http://www.upstate-citizens.org/
Generally our organization seeks equality under the law and the rule of law applied equally. We believe that the current federal Indian policy is fatally flawed. Indians were made citizens of the United States and the State wherein they reside when Congress passed The Indian Citizenship Act which grants to them the right to vote and be counted in the apportionment of political districts and brings them within the protections of the Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution. Therefore the State and Federal governments owes an obligation not to discriminate against them or other citizens based on race, ethnicity or national origin.
Your organization is a front for racists (and homophobes), greedy corporations, developers and closet bigots who are well on their way to becoming full-blown racists but just don't know it yet.
Having them all under one roof and using warm and fuzzy feel-good catchphrases is merely an attempt to whitewash their true motives with an air of otherwise unrecognized legitimacy. It's still just a smokescreen for a mass merging of a******s and idiots.
That is totally ridiculous. It is beyond my comprehension that you believe that Timbo. Formermac, do you believe that about the UCE?


Edited by kyle585 (04/08/14 08:07 PM)
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#1443860 --- 04/08/14 08:05 PM Re: Tribe not paying their fair share. [Re: kyle585]
Formermac Offline
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Registered: 10/22/12
Posts: 12800
Loc: Above ground
I sure did sell it....as you've stated to a non-Indian
Secondly, the fact that my father was half Native American and half Black, would make me what? I never recall him or myself looking for property tax abatement or exemption but by the same token, we do in most states and counties extend privileges to religious organization, Veterans, clergy, non profit and not for profit agencies. Can you name at least a dozen pieces of properties claiming those particular exemptions in Seneca Falls beside the Indian properties?
I guess the corporate privilege aren't off the map such as ITT(formerly Gould's Pump)who reap all the benefits of property tax abatement, exemptions and reduced utilities just to keep a few jobs in the area.

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#1443861 --- 04/08/14 08:09 PM Re: Tribe not paying their fair share. [Re: Formermac]
kyle585 Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 02/18/09
Posts: 19801
Loc: Somewhere out there
Originally Posted By: Formermac
I sure did sell it....as you've stated to a non-Indian
Secondly, the fact that my father was half Native American and half Black, would make me what?
Wow. I didn't know. You certainly are mixed race.
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#1443862 --- 04/08/14 08:10 PM Re: $895 Million Owed NY by Tribes [Re: kyle585]
Formermac Offline
Silver Member

Registered: 10/22/12
Posts: 12800
Loc: Above ground
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Timbo
To ask why I oppose equality under the law based on ethnicity is proof that you are talking to yourself because I am for equality under the law regardless of ethnicity.
To start with, I never asked, said, hinted at, nor suggested that you oppose anything. It would therefore seem that you are sorely lacking proof of anything.
I oppose special rights for Indians or any American citizen and it is obvious Rich does also. Is that clear enough? What is your position on the Indian debacle? You refuse to say. If I try and drag a position out of you, you fall back on your old tired line of having words put in your mouth. http://www.upstate-citizens.org/
Generally our organization seeks equality under the law and the rule of law applied equally. We believe that the current federal Indian policy is fatally flawed. Indians were made citizens of the United States and the State wherein they reside when Congress passed The Indian Citizenship Act which grants to them the right to vote and be counted in the apportionment of political districts and brings them within the protections of the Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution. Therefore the State and Federal governments owes an obligation not to discriminate against them or other citizens based on race, ethnicity or national origin.
Your organization is a front for racists (and homophobes), greedy corporations, developers and closet bigots who are well on their way to becoming full-blown racists but just don't know it yet.
Having them all under one roof and using warm and fuzzy feel-good catchphrases is merely an attempt to whitewash their true motives with an air of otherwise unrecognized legitimacy. It's still just a smokescreen for a mass merging of a******s and idiots.
That is totally ridiculous. It is beyond my comprehension that you believe that Timbo. Forermac, do you believe that about the UCE?



I know very little in regard to the UCE and it's personal practices overall but have heard derogatory comments coming from land owners before leaving the area. I vaguely recall a Cornell College professor buying property in the Southern Cayuga area and in turn sell it to the Indians, from my understanding, he was nearly run out of town by racist comments and physical threats, by who, I don't really know.

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#1443863 --- 04/08/14 08:10 PM Re: Tribe not paying their fair share. [Re: Formermac]
kyle585 Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 02/18/09
Posts: 19801
Loc: Somewhere out there
Originally Posted By: Formermac
Secondly, the fact that my father was half Native American and half Black, would make me what? I never recall him or myself looking for property tax abatement or exemption
Well good for you.
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#1443864 --- 04/08/14 08:17 PM Re: Tribe not paying their fair share. [Re: kyle585]
Formermac Offline
Silver Member

Registered: 10/22/12
Posts: 12800
Loc: Above ground
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Formermac
I sure did sell it....as you've stated to a non-Indian
Secondly, the fact that my father was half Native American and half Black, would make me what?
Wow. I didn't know. You certainly are mixed race.


Look up some info in regard to "The trail of tears" That's my family's heritage.

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#1443876 --- 04/08/14 09:39 PM Re: $895 Million Owed NY by Tribes [Re: Timbo]
Rich_Tallcot Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/19/03
Posts: 5565
Loc: Greeneville, TN
UCE and CERA work toward equality under the law regardless of race and you advocate inequality under the law based on race. Racism is racial discrimination and you are the one advocating discrimination. Name calling and temper tantrums do not change the obvious.

Everyone's ancestors were immigrants regardless of race. The NA may have been the first race on the continent but the Iroquois tribes were not the first in NYS.

Yes, the Europeans arrived in boats in 1492 and did not make contact with the Iroquois for almost a century. The Iroquois were not in NY in 1492, nor where the Europeans landed. The counties were named not for the first settlers, but for the Iroquois tribes which had divided up the regions of the lands from the tribes they conquered.

Squatter's rights is an interesting concept because the Cayuga occupied the areas of Cayuga and Seneca counties for less time than those who bought the lands from the State.

There were white slaves as well as blacks and tribes had slaves too. As you said, life is not fair.

Retribution is and has been for a long time been given in not taxing reservation properties of tribal members and allowing tax free purchases of goods by any tribal member living on a reservation delivered to that reservation address. That’s what the NY tax form states. That plus NY does a lot more.

Under the Articles of Confederation the Colony of New York (NYS) purchased ALL of the Cayuga lands in 1789. Of the CEDED lands the Cayuga were allowed a use right to 100 square miles of the State land purchased. The Cayuga sold their use rights back to NYS, which was the only entity that could buy them because they were State lands.

The only time the Cayuga ran from these lands was in 1779 during the Sullivan Campaign to put an end to Iroquois and Loyalist attacks against American settlements as had occurred the previous year of 1778 such as the Cobleskill, Wyoming Valley and Cherry Valley massacres.

Tribes in NY do not compare to the Trail of Tears or western tribes.

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#1443877 --- 04/08/14 09:45 PM Re: Tribe not paying their fair share. [Re: bluezone]
young guns Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/09/13
Posts: 846
Loc: USA
Gee there you go again with being Black. Black one day the next you denied it. You lie so much you have troubles keeping up with yourself. The other statement you made was you were a man of the Robe "Minister" make up your mind.

Look up some info in regard to "The trail of tears" That's my family's heritage. Damn you must feel famous.

Mine is of The Bars & Stars & proud of it.
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#1443878 --- 04/08/14 09:53 PM Re: Tribe not paying their fair share. [Re: young guns]
Formermac Offline
Silver Member

Registered: 10/22/12
Posts: 12800
Loc: Above ground
Originally Posted By: young guns
Gee there you go again with being Black. Black one day the next you denied it. You lie so much you have troubles keeping up with yourself. The other statement you made was you were a man of the Robe "Minister" make up your mind.

Look up some info in regard to "The trail of tears" That's my family's heritage. Damn you must feel famous.

Mine is of The Bars & Stars & proud of it.







LMAO Young gun, you sound more like a bent and rusted pea shooter. Apparently somewhere is that small cranium lies a small appendage called a brain. Robe, Black,Bars and stripes. What substance has cause that outburst of nonsense. Famous? no, more cultured than yourself? Apparently

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#1443880 --- 04/08/14 10:03 PM Re: $895 Million Owed NY by Tribes [Re: Rich_Tallcot]
Formermac Offline
Silver Member

Registered: 10/22/12
Posts: 12800
Loc: Above ground
Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
UCE and CERA work toward equality under the law regardless of race and you advocate inequality under the law based on race. Racism is racial discrimination and you are the one advocating discrimination. Name calling and temper tantrums do not change the obvious.

Everyone's ancestors were immigrants regardless of race. The NA may have been the first race on the continent but the Iroquois tribes were not the first in NYS.

Yes, the Europeans arrived in boats in 1492 and did not make contact with the Iroquois for almost a century. The Iroquois were not in NY in 1492, nor where the Europeans landed. The counties were named not for the first settlers, but for the Iroquois tribes which had divided up the regions of the lands from the tribes they conquered.

Squatter's rights is an interesting concept because the Cayuga occupied the areas of Cayuga and Seneca counties for less time than those who bought the lands from the State.

There were white slaves as well as blacks and tribes had slaves too. As you said, life is not fair.

Retribution is and has been for a long time been given in not taxing reservation properties of tribal members and allowing tax free purchases of goods by any tribal member living on a reservation delivered to that reservation address. That’s what the NY tax form states. That plus NY does a lot more.

Under the Articles of Confederation the Colony of New York (NYS) purchased ALL of the Cayuga lands in 1789. Of the CEDED lands the Cayuga were allowed a use right to 100 square miles of the State land purchased. The Cayuga sold their use rights back to NYS, which was the only entity that could buy them because they were State lands.

The only time the Cayuga ran from these lands was in 1779 during the Sullivan Campaign to put an end to Iroquois and Loyalist attacks against American settlements as had occurred the previous year of 1778 such as the Cobleskill, Wyoming Valley and Cherry Valley massacres.

Tribes in NY do not compare to the Trail of Tears or western tribes.


Rich, amusing reading if nothing else. It will take more than your Google searches and proclaiming yourself to be the Seneca County land claim expert to dispel actual history. When you find time, get some history books out that gives a factual account versus one similar to Aesop's fables. Next you'll tell us that the White man was more than generous in land trades
and help the Indians in all aspects to better their lives. We learned that crock back in Elementary grade school on Columbus Day. ROTFLMAO

laugh laugh laugh

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#1443882 --- 04/08/14 11:31 PM Twist and Turn thread [Re: Formermac]
VM Smith Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 11/28/05
Posts: 38160
Loc: Ship of Fools
Quote:
Next you'll tell us that the White man was more than generous in land trades
and help the Indians in all aspects to better their lives.


LOL...sooner or later, somebody was bound to help them advance out of the Stone Age, give them the wheel, the horse, cement, sailing ships, printing, etc. It just so happened that the whites got here before the Chinese.

Oh, yeah...and whites gave the Indians the Kardashian sisters, facebook, and lawyers, but I don't know if those 3 can be counted as advances.

You say that you're black and Indian, and you mention the Trail of Tears. That's this week's story, anyway. Do you by any chance descend from some of the thousands of black slaves the "Civilized" tribes owned?

Whether yes or no, that's some interesting history.
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#1443887 --- 04/09/14 03:10 AM Re: $895 Million Owed NY by Tribes [Re: Formermac]
Rich_Tallcot Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/19/03
Posts: 5565
Loc: Greeneville, TN
My research has included studying original documents in the National Archives, reading the actual treaties and much more. As I told Timbo, maybe he better write the University of Rochester and tell them the missionaries lied. Google searches are Timmy's fore' and they have not done him much good so far.

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#1443888 --- 04/09/14 03:21 AM Re: Tribe not paying their fair share. [Re: kyle585]
Rich_Tallcot Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/19/03
Posts: 5565
Loc: Greeneville, TN
The only settlement the Cayuga refused was from the Indian Land Claims Commission because they wanted more money. Their appeal started the land claim.

After that the Cayuga accepted two settlements. One was Sampson Air Base and the other was Pataki's deal with a casino in the Catskills. Each amounted to much more than that.

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#1443889 --- 04/09/14 04:26 AM Re: $895 Million Owed NY by Tribes [Re: Formermac]
kyle585 Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 02/18/09
Posts: 19801
Loc: Somewhere out there
Originally Posted By: Formermac
I know very little in regard to the UCE and it's personal practices overall but have heard derogatory comments coming from land owners before leaving the area. I vaguely recall a Cornell College professor buying property in the Southern Cayuga area and in turn sell it to the Indians, from my understanding, he was nearly run out of town by racist comments and physical threats, by who, I don't really know.
I don't know about that case but there has been much property sold to the Indians in Seneca County in the last few years and they know own over 50 parcels of land they do not pay required property tax on. I have heard of no threats against buyers or sellers. In fact one seller is in the Seneca County forum on here bragging that he sold to the Indians. He has even put his name on here too.


Edited by kyle585 (04/09/14 04:39 AM)
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#1443890 --- 04/09/14 04:28 AM Re: Twist and Turn thread [Re: VM Smith]
kyle585 Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 02/18/09
Posts: 19801
Loc: Somewhere out there
Originally Posted By: VM Smith
Quote:
Next you'll tell us that the White man was more than generous in land trades
and help the Indians in all aspects to better their lives.
LOL...sooner or later, somebody was bound to help them advance out of the Stone Age, give them the wheel, the horse, cement, sailing ships, printing, etc. It just so happened that the whites got here before the Chinese.
A very good point VM. If they were living under the rule of communist China, I doubt if they would own any houses to worry about paying taxes on!


Edited by kyle585 (04/09/14 06:31 AM)
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#1443891 --- 04/09/14 04:30 AM Re: $895 Million Owed NY by Tribes [Re: Rich_Tallcot]
kyle585 Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 02/18/09
Posts: 19801
Loc: Somewhere out there
Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
UCE and CERA work toward equality under the law regardless of race and you advocate inequality under the law based on race. Racism is racial discrimination and you are the one advocating discrimination. Name calling and temper tantrums do not change the obvious.
The worst racism on here is definitely between Timbo's ears.
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#1443892 --- 04/09/14 04:37 AM Re: Tribe not paying their fair share. [Re: Formermac]
kyle585 Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 02/18/09
Posts: 19801
Loc: Somewhere out there
Originally Posted By: Formermac
my father was half Native American and half Black, would make me what?
Have you ever had to fill out a form where it asked what your race was? Like a census form? What do you put?
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#1443893 --- 04/09/14 04:43 AM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: SportsRef1]
kyle585 Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 02/18/09
Posts: 19801
Loc: Somewhere out there
After this article appeared in the FL Times, Mr. Dean came on the Seneca County forum and bragged about selling to the Indians.

**********************************************************************************************************************

Posted: Thursday, March 27, 2014 11:42 am

By DAVID L. SHAW dshaw@fltimes.com

SENECA FALLS — The Cayuga Indian Nation has purchased its 58th property in this Seneca County town.

The Seneca Falls-based tribe bought a 0.76-acre parcel at 3047 E. Bayard St. Ext. from Timothy and Christine Dean Feb. 27. They paid $170,000 for property assessed at $125,000.

It is the 16th parcel the Cayugas have bought on East Bayard Street Extension since March 2008. Overall, the tribe has paid $8.8 million for properties assessed at $6 million.

The tribe pays property taxes when the deed is transferred, but does not pay taxes after it acquires the property. As a result, the Cayugas are more than $1.17 million in arrears when it comes to unpaid property taxes.

The tribe owns 58 parcels in Seneca Falls, totaling slightly more than 992 acres. They also own three parcels in Varick totaling 145.8 acres, along with 243 acres in Cayuga County.

The Cayugas have applied to put 129 of those acres into federal, tax-exempt trust. A decision is pending on that request.

Seneca County has gone to court to foreclose on five tax-delinquent properties. That case was argued before the U.S. Second Circuit Court of Appeals in Manhattan Jan. 7. Both sides are awaiting a ruling.

The tribe’s Feb. 27 acquisition prompted Brad Jones, a member of the Citizens Advisory Committee to the Seneca County Board of Supervisors’ Indian Affairs Committee, to suggest that water and sewer service be shut off to all Cayuga Nation properties three years or more in arrears on property taxes, and to consider adopting a local law prohibiting the Nation from buying new properties until back taxes are paid.

The Indian Affairs Committee was set to discuss the issue Tuesday night.

The Cayugas are paid up on all Seneca Falls water and sewer bills for the properties they own.


Edited by kyle585 (04/09/14 04:48 AM)
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#1443894 --- 04/09/14 05:39 AM Re: Tribe not paying their fair share. [Re: Formermac]
kyle585 Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 02/18/09
Posts: 19801
Loc: Somewhere out there
Originally Posted By: Formermac
we do in most states and counties extend privileges to religious organization, Veterans, clergy, non profit and not for profit agencies. Can you name at least a dozen pieces of properties claiming those particular exemptions in Seneca Falls beside the Indian properties?
I guess the corporate privilege aren't off the map such as ITT(formerly Gould's Pump)who reap all the benefits of property tax abatement, exemptions and reduced utilities just to keep a few jobs in the area.
I consider myself an agnostic and I would have no problem doing away with religious exemptions. Especially in a country that prides itself on separation of church and state. I am skeptical of all the tax breaks we give big companies to supposedly keep them from moving. Tax breaks that lure new companies probably make more sense. These situations are a lot different than Indians buying property where property taxes were previously paid and then not paying these taxes after they own the land. The latest court rulings say that the government can impose these taxes but then not foreclose if they don't pay. That is absurd in the extreme. And is another example of the Indians taking advantage of our judicial system. And then you say we are not being fair to them? We are being more than fair.
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