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#1442412 --- 03/31/14 06:50 AM Re: Tribe not paying their fair share. [Re: bluezone]
kyle585 Offline
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Registered: 02/18/09
Posts: 19801
Loc: Somewhere out there
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Indians should pay back-taxes, once white man pays back-rent.
you are not 'indian' and you are not 'white' so when will you pay your back rent?
Timbo is not white? Really?
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#1442480 --- 03/31/14 10:18 AM Re: Tribe not paying their fair share. [Re: Timbo]
bluezone Offline
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Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32557
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Timbo
[color:#FF0000]Indians should pay back-taxes, once white man pays back-rent.[/size]


so when will the 'tribes' offer free healthcare to everyone?
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#1442505 --- 03/31/14 01:11 PM Re: Tribe not paying their fair share. [Re: kyle585]
Timbo Offline
Silver Member

Registered: 07/18/12
Posts: 14386
Loc: CNY
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Timbo
There's no such thing as 100% indigenous. It's a meaningless term and a scientific impossibility.
Of course there is. If you are indigenous and not of mixed race, there you are 100% indigenous. Wow.

http://www.culturalsurvival.org/node/10275

Called Tribal Peoples, First Peoples, Native Peoples, Indigenous Peoples constitute about 5% of the world’s population,

It's not possible. Every living creature on Earth is an amalgamation of a wide range of genetic backgrounds. Unless of course, all your descendants slept with their identical twin siblings... have yours??? grin

Genetic purity would cause grotesque, widespread deformities, thereby preventing the species from flourishing.

You've been buying into too much of Rich's "racial percentile" jibber-jabber.

As I said... read a book.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=971&dat=19390928&id=cf0kAAAAIBAJ&sjid=9xEGAAAAIBAJ&pg=2717,437550
https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20110730000529AAFXd1E
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#1442510 --- 03/31/14 01:22 PM Re: Tribe not paying their fair share. [Re: Timbo]
kyle585 Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 02/18/09
Posts: 19801
Loc: Somewhere out there
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Timbo
There's no such thing as 100% indigenous. It's a meaningless term and a scientific impossibility.
Of course there is. If you are indigenous and not of mixed race, there you are 100% indigenous. Wow.

http://www.culturalsurvival.org/node/10275

Called Tribal Peoples, First Peoples, Native Peoples, Indigenous Peoples constitute about 5% of the world’s population,
It's not possible. Every living creature on Earth is an amalgamation of a wide range of genetic backgrounds.

Genetic purity would cause grotesque, widespread deformities, thereby preventing the species from flourishing.

You've been buying into too much of Rich's "racial percentile" jibber-jabber.

As I said... read a book.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=971&dat=19390928&id=cf0kAAAAIBAJ&sjid=9xEGAAAAIBAJ&pg=2717,437550
https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20110730000529AAFXd1E
Wow. I am flabbergasted. I didn't get this from Rich's jibber-jabber. I got it from your buddy Teonan and all his talk of the rights of indigenous peoples! Now you are telling me there are no indigenous people? Wow
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#1442513 --- 03/31/14 01:33 PM Re: Tribe not paying their fair share. [Re: kyle585]
Timbo Offline
Silver Member

Registered: 07/18/12
Posts: 14386
Loc: CNY
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Timbo
There's no such thing as 100% indigenous. It's a meaningless term and a scientific impossibility.
Of course there is. If you are indigenous and not of mixed race, there you are 100% indigenous. Wow.

http://www.culturalsurvival.org/node/10275

Called Tribal Peoples, First Peoples, Native Peoples, Indigenous Peoples constitute about 5% of the world’s population,

It's not possible. Every living creature on Earth is an amalgamation of a wide range of genetic backgrounds. Unless of course, all your descendants slept with their identical twin siblings... have yours??? grin

Genetic purity would cause grotesque, widespread deformities, thereby preventing the species from flourishing.

You've been buying into too much of Rich's "racial percentile" jibber-jabber.

As I said... read a book.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=971&dat=19390928&id=cf0kAAAAIBAJ&sjid=9xEGAAAAIBAJ&pg=2717,437550
https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20110730000529AAFXd1E

-----------------

Wow. I am flabbergasted. I didn't get this from Rich's jibber-jabber.

As least you acknowledge that it's jibber-jabber. grin

I got it from your buddy Teonan and all this talk of the rights of indigenous peoples!

No, you are pulling conclusions from out of thin air and you obviously have no clue what the word "indigenous" means.

Now you are telling me there are no indigenous people? Wow

There is no relationship between the two. You are (as always) making fundamentally flawed assumptions, and are highly unfamiliar with several key scientific definitions in this matter.
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#1442523 --- 03/31/14 02:22 PM Re: Tribe not paying their fair share. [Re: Timbo]
kyle585 Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 02/18/09
Posts: 19801
Loc: Somewhere out there
Originally Posted By: Timbo
I got it from your buddy Teonan and all this talk of the rights of indigenous peoples!

No, you are pulling conclusions from out of thin air and you obviously have no clue what the word "indigenous" means.

Now you are telling me there are no indigenous people? Wow

There is no relationship between the two. You are (as always) making fundamentally flawed assumptions, and are highly unfamiliar with several key scientific definitions in this matter.
Between the two what? I am getting real tired of your jibber-jabber.
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#1442535 --- 03/31/14 03:17 PM Re: Tribe not paying their fair share. [Re: kyle585]
twocats Offline
Silver Member

Registered: 02/09/10
Posts: 11904
Loc: NYS
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Timbo
I got it from your buddy Teonan and all this talk of the rights of indigenous peoples!

No, you are pulling conclusions from out of thin air and you obviously have no clue what the word "indigenous" means.

Now you are telling me there are no indigenous people? Wow

There is no relationship between the two. You are (as always) making fundamentally flawed assumptions, and are highly unfamiliar with several key scientific definitions in this matter.
Between the two what? I am getting real tired of your jibber-jabber.


Race and indigenous are two separate classifications.
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#1442544 --- 03/31/14 04:03 PM Re: Tribe not paying their fair share. [Re: twocats]
kyle585 Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 02/18/09
Posts: 19801
Loc: Somewhere out there
Originally Posted By: twocats
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Timbo
I got it from your buddy Teonan and all this talk of the rights of indigenous peoples!

No, you are pulling conclusions from out of thin air and you obviously have no clue what the word "indigenous" means.

Now you are telling me there are no indigenous people? Wow

There is no relationship between the two. You are (as always) making fundamentally flawed assumptions, and are highly unfamiliar with several key scientific definitions in this matter.
Between the two what? I am getting real tired of your jibber-jabber.
Race and indigenous are two separate classifications.
So are Native Americans a race or indigenous people? Teonan calls them indigenous people. I am not sure what Timbo calls anything anymore.
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#1442545 --- 03/31/14 04:07 PM Re: Tribe not paying their fair share. [Re: kyle585]
Timbo Offline
Silver Member

Registered: 07/18/12
Posts: 14386
Loc: CNY
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: twocats
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Timbo
I got it from your buddy Teonan and all this talk of the rights of indigenous peoples!

No, you are pulling conclusions from out of thin air and you obviously have no clue what the word "indigenous" means.

Now you are telling me there are no indigenous people? Wow

There is no relationship between the two. You are (as always) making fundamentally flawed assumptions, and are highly unfamiliar with several key scientific definitions in this matter.
Between the two what? I am getting real tired of your jibber-jabber.
Race and indigenous are two separate classifications.
So are Native Americans a race or indigenous people? Teonan calls them indigenous people. I am not sure what Timbo calls anything anymore.

It depends on the defining parameters.

If you want to be 100% scientifically accurate, in the most SPECIFIC sense; there really is no such thing as "race". For purposes of GENERAL classification however, there is.

I know you won't like that answer, but the facts don't require your approval or agreement. They simply are, what they are.
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#1442548 --- 03/31/14 04:21 PM Re: Tribe not paying their fair share. [Re: Timbo]
kyle585 Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 02/18/09
Posts: 19801
Loc: Somewhere out there
Originally Posted By: Timbo
It depends on the defining parameters.

If you want to be 100% scientifically accurate, in the most SPECIFIC sense; there really is no such thing as "race". For proposes of GENERAL classification however, there is.

I know you won't like that answer, but the facts don't require your approval or agreement. They simply are, what they are.
I like that answer. We have made all them all American citizens with all the rights and responsibilities thereof. In America all races and all people are equal whether indigenous or not. They are free to speak their own language and practice their own culture. They are not a sovereign nation but a part of the USA. As Timbo has pointed out, many of them have served in the US military. Problem solved. Now pay your just taxes to the government who protects you from all enemies foreign and domestic just as every other American citizen is required to do.


Edited by kyle585 (03/31/14 05:17 PM)
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#1442552 --- 03/31/14 04:36 PM Re: Tribe not paying their fair share. [Re: kyle585]
twocats Offline
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Registered: 02/09/10
Posts: 11904
Loc: NYS
"We" have also made all Puerto Ricans citizens of the US yet they retain their sovereignty...along with several other US territories.
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#1442569 --- 03/31/14 05:00 PM Re: Tribe not paying their fair share. [Re: twocats]
kyle585 Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 02/18/09
Posts: 19801
Loc: Somewhere out there
Originally Posted By: twocats
"We" have also made all Puerto Ricans citizens of the US yet they retain their sovereignty...along with several other US territories.
You could be right. I don't know. But I have never heard of them refusing to pay any taxes we expect them to pay. And their sovereignty is not part of any land that was previously part of the USA that they are now claiming is sovereign, are they? They don't just buy up a house and declare it now sovereign I am sure.


Edited by kyle585 (03/31/14 05:15 PM)
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#1442571 --- 03/31/14 05:07 PM Re: Tribe not paying their fair share. [Re: kyle585]
kyle585 Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 02/18/09
Posts: 19801
Loc: Somewhere out there
https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20130222102744AA1ZGif

Question: Why isn't Puerto Rico considered a sovereign nation?

Answer: Because they voted to be a territory of the United States instead of a sovereign nation.

PR would not survive as a sovereign nation. They would be Haiti if they had to take care of their own.

The only question now is will they ever become a state. Or will they remain a US territory forever.

***************************

A little history:

* PR was a sovereign nation before 1503 when the Taino indians ruled Boriken (the taino name for Puerto Rico).
* In 1503, under the leadership of Juan Ponce De Leon, Spain conquerred PR and made it a colony.
* Puerto Rico remained as a spanish colony until 1898. For a few months (weeks?) in 1898 Puerto Rico reached a bit of autonomy but still under Spain control).
* In July 1898 USA invaded PR during the HispanoAmerican War of 1898, and the end of the war Spain ceded PR and other possesions to USA. Puerto Rico became an US territory.
* There are more than one type of US territories, PR is an organized territory (meaning with local goverment) and at the same time a non incorporated territory of the USA.
* Through history several plesbicites (votes) have been made to solve the status issue of the relationship of PR and USA. In the first three (1967, 1993, 1998) the desicions have been to stay with our current status (i.e. US territory).
* In the last plebiscite (November 2012) the majority or the votes were to change the current territorial status of PR. In a second question the status option with more votes was statehood, that is to join USA as the next state.


Edited by kyle585 (03/31/14 05:21 PM)
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#1442575 --- 03/31/14 05:21 PM Re: Tribe not paying their fair share. [Re: kyle585]
twocats Offline
Silver Member

Registered: 02/09/10
Posts: 11904
Loc: NYS
Thanks for the clarification. I thought they didn't have to pay the same income taxes. Maybe I'll check that later.


Location means little. The US wasn't always the US.


Edited by twocats (03/31/14 05:22 PM)
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#1442585 --- 03/31/14 06:33 PM Re: Tribe not paying their fair share. [Re: kyle585]
Teonan Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/30/12
Posts: 4861
Loc: Malmö
Originally Posted By: kyle585

PR would not survive as a sovereign nation. They would be Haiti if they had to take care of their own.


That's about the most hegemonistic bullsh*t assumption you've shared with us lately Kyle.

Do you actually believe Puerto Rican people are somehow incapable of determining their own future, establish international trade relations, create a viable society on THEIR terms?


Much has been written regarding the ongoing struggle for Puerto Rican Independence. This short piece from 1998 speaks of their spirit of resistance to U.S. colonialism.

On the 100th anniversary of the U.S. invasion, Puerto Rico still deserves independence

by Martin Espada

One nation should never be the property of another. Yet Puerto Rico is a colony of the United States. July 25 marks the centennial of U.S. occupation; in 1898, U.S. troops landed in Puerto Rico and seized the island as a prize of the Spanish-American War.

The colonial relationship between the United States and Puerto Rico has not fundamentally changed since that time. The island remains a political anachronism, a throwback to the age of gunboat diplomacy and the handlebar mustache.

The invasion of Puerto Rico was directed by Gen. Nelson Miles, who once hunted down Sitting Bull and Crazy Horse. He promised Puerto Ricans the "blessings" of an "enlightened civilization." That civilization imposed a series of North American governors, prohibiting Puerto Rico from electing its own governor until after World War II; greedily exploited the labor and natural resources of the island; established a menacing, strategic military presence; forced English on the public schools and the court system; and repressed the independence movement.

Since the 1920s, the federal law of seditious conspiracy has been used almost exclusively against Puerto Ricans, according to historian Ronald Fernandez. In 1936, the leaders of the militantly pro-independence Nationalist Party were imprisoned after two sedition trials. The head of the party, Pedro Albizu Campos, spent nearly three decades in prison. In 1937, police gunned down pro-independence marchers in the Ponce Massacre. One independentista recalls: "My mother went to the march in a white dress, and came home in a red dress." A Nationalist revolt was suppressed in 1950, with more killings and jailings. In 1978, a police firing squad murdered two young activists at Cerro Maravilla. Many Puerto Rican political prisoners are still incarcerated. Many more advocates for independence has been surveilled, harassed or fired.

Without an appreciation for the fear and despair caused by this century of repression, the small percentage of votes cast for independentista parties makes no sense. By the time Puerto Ricans were finally permitted to vote on status, in 1967, the political climate was safe for the powers that be. Nevertheless, the sentiment for independence away from the polls is surprisingly strong.

Colonialism is inherently anti-democratic. In Puerto Rico, the population cannot vote for president of the United States, but can be drafted to fight and die in the wars of the United States. The island is represented in Congress only by a non-voting resident commissioner, yet Congress controls virtually all significant aspects of Puerto Rican political life. Since 1952, Puerto Rico has been a "commonwealth," though this, too, is part of a colonial strategy, an illusory liberalization which has actually perpetuated U.S. control. Commonwealth or not, Puerto Rico's rate of unemployment is far higher than in any state. Per capita income is half that of Mississippi.

I would believe in independence for Puerto Rico even if I were not Puerto Rican. National independence is a prerequisite for democracy and self-determination; not an end, but a beginning.

Puerto Rico is the oldest colony in the world: four centuries under Spain and a century under the United States. In 500 years, Puerto Ricans have not determined their own destiny for five minutes.

The poet Clemente Soto Velez spent six years in prison for "seditious conspiracy." I hope that my son, named after him, will see the independent Puerto Rico of the poet's vision, the vision that made the poet so dangerous.

Poet Martin Espada teaches at the University of Massachusetts at Amherst.

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#1442590 --- 03/31/14 07:15 PM Re: Tribe not paying their fair share. [Re: Teonan]
kyle585 Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 02/18/09
Posts: 19801
Loc: Somewhere out there
Originally Posted By: Teonan
Originally Posted By: kyle585

PR would not survive as a sovereign nation. They would be Haiti if they had to take care of their own.

That's about the most hegemonistic bullsh*t assumption you've shared with us lately Kyle.

Do you actually believe Puerto Rican people are somehow incapable of determining their own future, establish international trade relations, create a viable society on THEIR terms?
No I don't believe that. It just happened to be in the article that had other information I wanted to post. They are certainly more capable of it than the very small tribes within the continental US who dare to declare themselves sovereign.
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#1442595 --- 03/31/14 07:20 PM Re: Tribe not paying their fair share. [Re: twocats]
kyle585 Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 02/18/09
Posts: 19801
Loc: Somewhere out there
Originally Posted By: twocats
Thanks for the clarification. I thought they didn't have to pay the same income taxes. Maybe I'll check that later.

http://gopuertorico.about.com/od/introductiontopuertorico/f/Statehood.htm

Yes, Puerto Ricans are U.S. citizens, and make up about 1.3% of the total population of the United States. They enjoy all the benefits of citizenship, save one: Puerto Ricans who live in Puerto Rico cannot vote for the U.S. President in the general elections (those who live in the United States are allowed to vote).

Does Puerto Rico Want to Become a U.S. State?
In general, there are three schools of thought on this issue:

The vast majority of Puerto Ricans want to keep the status quo and remain a Commonwealth.
A less popular but vocal camp is in favor of becoming a U.S. state. Their reasons center on the right to vote and increased funding from Washington, DC.
An increasingly smaller minority want independence for Puerto Rico, arguing that national pride and complete autonomy will be worth the growing pains of a new nation that is not supported by Federal aid.
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#1442599 --- 03/31/14 07:23 PM Re: Tribe not paying their fair share. [Re: twocats]
kyle585 Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 02/18/09
Posts: 19801
Loc: Somewhere out there
Originally Posted By: twocats
Location means little. The US wasn't always the US.
I don't know what your point is here? Do you think the US should give up some of its territory? I thought that was settled with the Civil War.
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#1442604 --- 03/31/14 07:30 PM Re: Tribe not paying their fair share. [Re: kyle585]
Timbo Offline
Silver Member

Registered: 07/18/12
Posts: 14386
Loc: CNY
Originally Posted By: kyle585
https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20130222102744AA1ZGif

Question: Why isn't Puerto Rico considered a sovereign nation?

Answer: Because they voted to be a territory of the United States instead of a sovereign nation.

PR would not survive as a sovereign nation. They would be Haiti if they had to take care of their own.

The only question now is will they ever become a state. Or will they remain a US territory forever.

***************************

A little history:

* PR was a sovereign nation before 1503 when the Taino indians ruled Boriken (the taino name for Puerto Rico).
* In 1503, under the leadership of Juan Ponce De Leon, Spain conquerred PR and made it a colony.
* Puerto Rico remained as a spanish colony until 1898. For a few months (weeks?) in 1898 Puerto Rico reached a bit of autonomy but still under Spain control).
* In July 1898 USA invaded PR during the HispanoAmerican War of 1898, and the end of the war Spain ceded PR and other possesions to USA. Puerto Rico became an US territory.
* There are more than one type of US territories, PR is an organized territory (meaning with local goverment) and at the same time a non incorporated territory of the USA.
* Through history several plesbicites (votes) have been made to solve the status issue of the relationship of PR and USA. In the first three (1967, 1993, 1998) the desicions have been to stay with our current status (i.e. US territory).
* In the last plebiscite (November 2012) the majority or the votes were to change the current territorial status of PR. In a second question the status option with more votes was statehood, that is to join USA as the next state.

Ahh, the student has now become the master. <rolls eyes>
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#1442606 --- 03/31/14 07:35 PM Re: Tribe not paying their fair share. [Re: Timbo]
kyle585 Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 02/18/09
Posts: 19801
Loc: Somewhere out there
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Ahh, the student has now become the master. <rolls eyes>
Did you think you were the master before? ROFLMAO grin
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