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#1441599 --- 03/26/14 09:11 AM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: Timbo]
bluezone Offline
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Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32557
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Now then... you were saying? ? ?


why do you refuse to give the land back that you reside on?
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#1441618 --- 03/26/14 10:21 AM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: Teonan]
kyle585 Offline
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Registered: 02/18/09
Posts: 19801
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I applaud Native Americans in their efforts to reconnect with nature and the earth. Unfortunately these efforts seem about as far from selling tax-free cigs and building casinos as you can get.

**********************************************************

By DAVID L. SHAW
dshaw@fltimes.com

3/23/14

GENEVA — A member of a Native American tribe in Oklahoma will offer his perspective on global climate change Thursday. Daniel Wildcat, a Yuchi member of the Muscogee Nation, will speak on “Enacting Indigenuity in an Age of Global Environmental Crisis” at Albright Auditorium on the campus of Hobart and William Smith Colleges.

His talk, part of the Melvin Hill Visiting Professorship Lecture Series, is free and open to the public. Wildcat is director of the American Indian Studies Program and the Haskell Environmental Research Studies Center at the Haskell Indian Nations University in Lawrence, Kansas.

His work incorporates a vital cultural project for policy change in environmental issues. It’s a policy change that recognizes the role of cultural aspects of society, such as
storytelling traditions and community spiritual practices, in shaping human values that ultimately dictate a course of action.

“Humankind does not stand above or outside of earth’s life system,” Wildcat says in his book “Red Alert! Saving the Planet with Indigenous Knowledge.” “If the planet is telling us the problem is the way too many of our kind is living, it seems arrogant and unproductive to continue to want to change everything but the way we live. “The world is changing, and it is time for us to pay attention. We may find insights in our oldest indigenous traditions and activities.” The Colleges’ Office of the Provost, Division of Student Affairs and Finger Lakes Institute are co-sponsoring Wildcat’s appearance.

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#1441753 --- 03/26/14 05:26 PM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: kyle585]
Rich_Tallcot Offline
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Registered: 01/19/03
Posts: 5565
Loc: Greeneville, TN
There is a climate change thread here in the Great Debate forum.

Possibly you missed the VMS post 1440620 in the More Tribal News thread.

It is lengthy but gives balance to myth and misconception.

http://perc.org/articles/conservation-native-american-style-full

"To claim that Indians lived without affecting nature is akin to saying that they lived without touching anything, that they were a people without history."

The purpose of this paper is twofold. First, it will put to rest the myth of a unique and romantic American Indian environmental ethic. Second, it will illustrate how American Indians used complex and evolving institutions to conserve scarce natural resources and to survive in a sometimes hostile environment. By institutions, I mean the traditions, rules, laws and habits that guided Indian societies. Though the actual laws and customs vary among societies, all societies have such institutions to guide them.

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#1441762 --- 03/26/14 06:03 PM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: Rich_Tallcot]
Timbo Offline
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Registered: 07/18/12
Posts: 14386
Loc: CNY

That never stopped you from previously and repeatedly discussing THIS thread topic in at least two other unrelated threads. whistle

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#1441763 --- 03/26/14 06:08 PM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: Rich_Tallcot]
Timbo Offline
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Registered: 07/18/12
Posts: 14386
Loc: CNY
Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
"To claim that Indians lived without affecting nature is akin to saying that they lived without touching anything, that they were a people without history."

To suggest that anyone ever claimed that "Indians lived without affecting nature" is one more clear example of your habitual tendency to knowingly make assertions that are completely false. grin
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#1441764 --- 03/26/14 06:21 PM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: Timbo]
Rich_Tallcot Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/19/03
Posts: 5565
Loc: Greeneville, TN
Nice to see that you agree with the article which you probably did not read. The quote was not mine, but a copy and paste.

The post by Kyle in a tribal thread regarding a tribe with info overlapping two threads was not misplaced but I just made reference to the other.

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#1441786 --- 03/26/14 10:51 PM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: Rich_Tallcot]
Timbo Offline
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Registered: 07/18/12
Posts: 14386
Loc: CNY
Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
The quote was not mine, but a copy and paste.

Do you always quote then disavow said quotes?

How very Janus-faced of you.
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#1441787 --- 03/27/14 01:43 AM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: Timbo]
Rich_Tallcot Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/19/03
Posts: 5565
Loc: Greeneville, TN
http://perc.org/articles/conservation-native-american-style-full
I click on the link would have made that obvious.
But I know you have trouble connecting one dot.

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#1441808 --- 03/27/14 07:37 AM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: Timbo]
bluezone Offline
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Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32557
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Timbo


you still have not yet returned to YOUR homeland?
look in the mirror...
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#1441809 --- 03/27/14 07:42 AM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: Timbo]
bluezone Offline
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Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32557
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Many Native Americans believe their traditional systems of government were better for their culture.


did you ask the queen?
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#1441811 --- 03/27/14 07:44 AM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: Timbo]
bluezone Offline
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Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32557
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Please, tell us all again... at what point in time did the assimilation of Native Americans, their land and their culture cease to be racially and/or profit motivated?

when you bought the land and served in the US navy
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#1441813 --- 03/27/14 07:50 AM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: Teonan]
bluezone Offline
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Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32557
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Teonan
Spot ON Timbo.


not able speak for ones self?
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#1441815 --- 03/27/14 08:02 AM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: bluezone]
bluezone Offline
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Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32557
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Timbo

Wrong Kyle.

Here's just one example of a treaty being violated in NY. The State illegally obtained this Indian land.

http://www.syracuse.com/news/indianlandc...im/empire1.html
http://articles.baltimoresun.com/1999-01...entral-new-york

Only the joint-approval of Indians and Congress can do so legally.

The list goes on.


do you want over a million why your 'spilled milk' routine is without merit?

Quote:
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#1441855 --- 03/27/14 12:38 PM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: Rich_Tallcot]
Timbo Offline
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Registered: 07/18/12
Posts: 14386
Loc: CNY
Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
http://perc.org/articles/conservation-native-american-style-full
I click on the link would have made that obvious.
But I know you have trouble connecting one dot.

Nonsense. You were making precisely that point, or else you would have addressed the issue directly, in your own words, rather than hiding behind a quote and then running from it by suggesting that they weren't your words, personally.

At least have the courage to publicly stand by your own convictions.
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#1441858 --- 03/27/14 12:55 PM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: Rich_Tallcot]
Timbo Offline
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Registered: 07/18/12
Posts: 14386
Loc: CNY
Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
Rupert Costco’s analysis statement preceding what your first highlight in red states ( and the last and most oppressive of such measures, the Dawes Allotment Act.) The Dawes Act is what he was referring to.

From that article Costo said, "The IRA was the last great drive to assimilate the American Indian. It was also a program to colonize the tribes. “

But he fails to mention how it would assimilate. Since the enactment of the IRA, approximately five million acres of land have been acquired and placed into trust for Indian tribes and their members. That’s hardly what I call assimilation.

Your second highlight in red refers to voting. The article also states ( Those opposed to the Act feared that it would be detrimental to them because it would be controlled by the federal government. In the end 181 tribes voted in favor of the Act and 77 tribes rejected it.) All of the NY tribes rejected it and the only voting rules in the act were a no vote was to reject.

But confusion by the tribes does not change what the act did.

I agree with the Wikipedia synopsis. Congress did not pass everything Collier wanted and the BIA always did have oversight and traditional systems of government may have been better. But even that leads out with (The act has helped conserve the communal tribal land bases. )

But your question was at what point in time did the assimilation of Native Americans, their land and their culture cease to be racially and/or profit motivated?

The IRA was the point regarding individual Indians, the land and their culture being racially motivated. Legally that is what differentiated individuals from the tribal governments and from racial to political.

Collier made promises on his ideals and Congress did not pass everything he proposed. So if he said if you like your government you can keep it, consider the source from a true blue progressive. Yet, as you also noted 77 tribes rejected it.

As you also highlight in red ( The IRA did not let the tribes have their own governments that would be completely independent. Instead, it ensured that the tribes would remain under the supervision of the Bureau of Indian Affairs)

Well, there are three sovereign in the US Constitution and tribes are not one of them. So for tribes to exist they only do so under the auspices of the federal government as a trustee to a ward. So tribal governments will never be completely independent to the extent some fanaticize.

FIP changed in 1970 under Nixon with a Self Determination policy.

Congress passed the Indian Self-Determination and Education Assistance Act of 1975. It enabled the government to make direct contracts with the Indian tribes just as it does with the states, for implementation of programs and distribution of funds. Rather than the BIA administering programs directly, the government would contract with tribes to manage health care, for instance, or educational benefits.

In 1968, Congress had passed the Indian Civil Rights Act. The bill was to ensure provision of the Bill of Rights to the tribal peoples. But SCOTUS ruled that Self Determination left that up to the tribal governments, which are often the oppressor.

In the following years, Congress passed additional legislation to carry out Nixon's programs to develop a stronger trust relationship between the federal government and the tribes, and to allow the tribes to manage their own affairs.

Examples are the Indian Financing Act of 1974 and the Self-Determination and Education Act of 1975. The Indian Child Welfare Act "... recognized tribal courts as the primary and ultimate forum for welfare and custody cases concerning native children."By promising to look after the tribes' children, the ICWA contributed to the economic and cultural welfare of each tribe's future. The American Indian Religious Freedom Act "...recognized the integrity of native cultures." It ended the persecution of American Indians for such practices as the use of peyote in religion.

Since 1980, administrations have issued Presidential Memoranda on Indian affairs to indicate direction for increased tribal sovereignty. A 1994 Presidential Memorandum issued by Bill Clinton changed the way the U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development supported housing programs. The Native American Housing Assistance and Self-Determination Act of 1996 consolidated grant programs for housing funding into a single block grant specifically available to recognized governments of American Indians and Alaska Natives.

http://historymatters.gmu.edu/d/33/
Alfred Dubray, a Brule Sioux born on the Rosebud Rex. In SD says It had a lot of advantages that many of the people didn’t see, such as making loan funds available, huge amounts of that. Farm programs were developed through this. Cattle-raising programs were initiated. Educational loans were beginning to be made available for Indian youngsters who had never had any opportunities before, hardly, to attend any higher institutions. Unless they just did it by sheer initiative, and if somebody is sponsoring it. So there was a new field there in education, and, of course, mainly the tribal governing body section of it—busy there, and they established their governing body and voted on their representatives and the council members.

I think it was difficult for the people to really recognize what they were doing for probably several years after that, until they got into the change.

Source: Oral history courtesy of Institute of American Indian Studies, South Dakota Oral History Center, University of South Dakota.

So some liked it and some did not. I don't like it either, but that was not the question.

And the dots that you don't seem to be able to connect, are those that bear out the fact that virtually every treaty was either broken or violated by Europen settlers and Federal and State governments, technically rendering null and void, virtually all of those agreements.

Unfortunately, most indian nations, tribes and individuals have little choice but to use what remaining power they have left under White man's laws that they have been subjected to, as to prevent further losses of land, power and sovereignty. Precisely in the same way that Indians were compelled to take sides during the War for Independence.

CERA/Cerf et al, then become outraged at the Indians for "gaming the system" that white man instituted as a way of stealing from them, their entire way of life in the first place. You reap what you sew,

Sorry, Rich. Any way you try dress it up, you're still just putting lipstick on a pig.
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#1441864 --- 03/27/14 01:09 PM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: bluezone]
SportsRef1 Offline
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Registered: 11/30/03
Posts: 3225
Loc: Seneca County

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#1441869 --- 03/27/14 01:23 PM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: SportsRef1]
Timbo Offline
Silver Member

Registered: 07/18/12
Posts: 14386
Loc: CNY

Good fer them.
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#1441873 --- 03/27/14 01:37 PM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: Timbo]
Teonan Offline
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Registered: 05/30/12
Posts: 4874
Loc: Malmö
Originally Posted By: Timbo

Good fer them.

Agreed.
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#1441908 --- 03/27/14 03:23 PM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: Timbo]
kyle585 Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 02/18/09
Posts: 19801
Loc: Somewhere out there
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Unfortunately, most indian nations, tribes and individuals have little choice but to use what remaining power they have left under White man's laws that they have been subjected to, as to prevent further losses of land, power and sovereignty.
Nonsense. They are very good at using White man's laws and lawyers to get all the benefits of being American citizens without paying all the taxes. For them to then declare they are a sovereign nation within the USA is outrageous.

Quote:
The tribe’s Feb. 27 acquisition prompted Brad Jones, a member of the Citizens Advisory Committee to the Seneca County Board of Supervisors’ Indian Affairs Committee, to suggest that water and sewer service be shut off to all Cayuga Nation properties three years or more in arrears on property taxes, and to consider adopting a local law prohibiting the Nation from buying new properties until back taxes are paid.

The Indian Affairs Committee was set to discuss the issue Tuesday night.
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#1441910 --- 03/27/14 03:26 PM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: SportsRef1]
kyle585 Offline
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Registered: 02/18/09
Posts: 19801
Loc: Somewhere out there
Soon they will own half of Seneca County and the other half of us will be paying double taxes.
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