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#1440601 --- 03/20/14 09:20 PM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: Rich_Tallcot]
Timbo Offline
Silver Member

Registered: 07/18/12
Posts: 14706
Loc: CNY
Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
Originally Posted By: teedoff27
Quote:
You have valid points regarding the state taxing too much and welfare but you get your oranges and apples mixed.


Not really considering you spend time, effort, and MILLIONS chasing after the 5,000 Natives that reside in New York, yet do NOTHING about the 5 million(out of 19.9 million), that DO NOT pay taxes yet RAPE 87 BILLION of those tax dollars!

You are worried about the Cayuga's parcels taking away from the tax base in Seneca County, yet have MANY more on welfare not contributing to the very same tax base and wasting what county taxes are collected

Teed: I have no millions to spend and with state compensation to the counties, your tax dollars have paid as much as I did. Plus 90% of the money spent was on lawsuits they already won and the Prince Andrew deal would throw that all away. I have never chased any Indians but have worked toward promoting equality under the law and, as such, have been involved in political campaigns and am involved in lawsuits against the federal government.

Your welfare state augments the welfare situation and all those who qualify or work the system do so equally under the law. See the difference? The situation is not good anywhere but I feel it is worse in NYS. But I no longer pay takes there except for what I just paid in income tax for the last time. Plus taxes have never been my issue, but rather land status and jurisdiction.

Not knowing what retirement you may be under, but NC taxes state retirement and TN does not. See you in a few years, I'm 14 miles from the NC border.

US Combined State & Average Local Sales Tax Rates-2014:

#7 — New York — 8.47%
#1 — Tennessee — 9.45%

Better start saving for the cost to move back. grin



http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/03/18/sales-taxes-highest-in-st_n_4988216.html
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#1440605 --- 03/20/14 10:01 PM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: Timbo]
Rich_Tallcot Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/19/03
Posts: 5586
Loc: Greeneville, TN
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Only an simpleton would conclude that the fact that it was, somehow precludes the fact that it still is.
I agree. Tell that to those who lost their land claims. smile

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#1440607 --- 03/20/14 10:14 PM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: Timbo]
Rich_Tallcot Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/19/03
Posts: 5586
Loc: Greeneville, TN
The TN sales tax pays for the schools, which we do not have taxes on. The one percent more I pay here is considerably less than the six grand a year for school / property tax that I was paying there on top of income and sales tax.

I know ya miss me, but you'll just have to make up the difference in taxes lost. smile

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#1440612 --- 03/20/14 11:01 PM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: Rich_Tallcot]
Timbo Offline
Silver Member

Registered: 07/18/12
Posts: 14706
Loc: CNY

Anyway you look at it, TN combined/average taxes are still the highest in the country.
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#1440625 --- 03/21/14 05:00 AM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: Timbo]
Rich_Tallcot Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/19/03
Posts: 5586
Loc: Greeneville, TN
Originally Posted By: Timbo

Anyway you look at it, TN combined/average taxes are still the highest in the country.
Well that must be true if you say so.

For property of the same assessed value I pay five grand a year less; my pipe tobacco is less than half the cost, vehicle registrations about the same, gas here runs $2.98 to $3.12 and utilities on my house are less than they were in my apartment. That's about as combined as it gets. How silly of me to think it was cheaper here. You better stay there where the taxes are lower. HAH.

Strangely I have met about a dozen New Yorkers who moved here with the misconception that their taxes are lower. But I do not think they will be moving back either.

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#1440627 --- 03/21/14 05:16 AM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: Timbo]
Rich_Tallcot Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/19/03
Posts: 5586
Loc: Greeneville, TN
Originally Posted By: Timbo

Anyway you look at it, TN combined/average taxes are still the highest in the country.
Oh, the post you made says SALES tax rates, which is only 1% higher than the NY average and equal to what it is near tribal areas where counties have to make up for lost taxes.

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#1440628 --- 03/21/14 05:17 AM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: bluezone]
teedoff27 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/11/11
Posts: 2272
Loc: S2Hphoto
They need to change North Carolina's name to NEW New York because so many NY'ers are moving there (quickly catching up to Florida) LOL. Everytime we visit our friends in Carolina Beach no matter where we go, we run in to an ex-NY'er grin
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#1440684 --- 03/21/14 10:56 AM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: Rich_Tallcot]
Timbo Offline
Silver Member

Registered: 07/18/12
Posts: 14706
Loc: CNY
Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
Originally Posted By: Timbo

Anyway you look at it, TN combined/average taxes are still the highest in the country.
Oh, the post you made says SALES tax rates, which is only 1% higher than the NY average and equal to what it is near tribal areas where counties have to make up for lost taxes.

It also said the words "combined" and "average". grin
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#1440730 --- 03/21/14 02:14 PM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: Timbo]
Rich_Tallcot Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/19/03
Posts: 5586
Loc: Greeneville, TN
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
Originally Posted By: Timbo

Anyway you look at it, TN combined/average taxes are still the highest in the country.
Oh, the post you made says SALES tax rates, which is only 1% higher than the NY average and equal to what it is near tribal areas where counties have to make up for lost taxes.

It also said the words "combined" and "average". grin
You do consistently have problems with reading comprehension and connecting dots which would also explain your misconception of Indians not taxed concerning congressional delegation and the Supremacy clause where you selectively picked out treaties are the supreme law of the land in part of one sentence neglecting the two other supreme laws with the words "and" combining the three in the same sentence.

States have a sales tax, counties have a sales tax and municipalities have a sales tax. NYS sales tax is 4%. When you add them together and divide them out you have a combined average but that only applies to the "sales" taxes as it states in the sentence which you pick words out of. Just looking at the numbers would tell a logical person that but I guess living on a rez in a different state worshiping Google and not paying your own way would explain your ignorance of the area, the people and the taxes.

You need to attend more therapy groups and fewer powwows but you do make for comic relief. So how is the weather where you live?

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#1440760 --- 03/21/14 04:55 PM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: Rich_Tallcot]
Timbo Offline
Silver Member

Registered: 07/18/12
Posts: 14706
Loc: CNY
Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
... I guess living on a rez in a different state worshiping Google and not paying your own way would explain your ignorance of the area, the people and the taxes.

You need to attend more therapy groups and fewer powwows but you do make for comic relief. So how is the weather where you live?

Your false assumptions will be your undoing.
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#1440774 --- 03/21/14 09:02 PM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: Timbo]
Rich_Tallcot Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/19/03
Posts: 5586
Loc: Greeneville, TN
Still could not connect the dots huh? And again, there was only one dot as there was only one sentence. Be sure to deflect but never admit you lost yet another discussion. You know, like state jurisdiction over state reservations, and tribes being wards, etc., etc., etc.

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#1440802 --- 03/22/14 07:35 AM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: Timbo]
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 33558
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Your false assumptions will be your undoing.


your math skills are lacking....

laugh

you should be out volunteering
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#1440804 --- 03/22/14 07:45 AM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: bluezone]
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 33558
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Timbo

Wrong Kyle.

Here's just one example of a treaty being violated in NY. The State illegally obtained this Indian land.

http://www.syracuse.com/news/indianlandc...im/empire1.html
http://articles.baltimoresun.com/1999-01...entral-new-york

Only the joint-approval of Indians and Congress can do so legally.

The list goes on.


'The list goes on'

is that all you got?
yawn...
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#1441432 --- 03/25/14 09:17 AM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: bluezone]
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 33558
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Timbo

Wrong Kyle.

Here's just one example of a treaty being violated in NY. The State illegally obtained this Indian land.

http://www.syracuse.com/news/indianlandc...im/empire1.html
http://articles.baltimoresun.com/1999-01...entral-new-york

Only the joint-approval of Indians and Congress can do so legally.

The list goes on.


which 'indians'?

all of them or a specific 'tribe'?

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#1441513 --- 03/25/14 04:42 PM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: bluezone]
Rich_Tallcot Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/19/03
Posts: 5586
Loc: Greeneville, TN
Any alleged government to government relationship dealings has to be with a tribe as individual Indians have no standing. Timbo has always tried to make this racial as opposed to political and knows so much which isn't so.

Also the Treaty of Canandaigua was with the Iroquois Confederacy which basically no longer exists in any governmental capacity, not the individual tribes. Several may get together for a powwow but not to act in an official capacity.

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#1441516 --- 03/25/14 04:58 PM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: Rich_Tallcot]
Timbo Offline
Silver Member

Registered: 07/18/12
Posts: 14706
Loc: CNY

Please, tell us all again... at what point in time did the assimilation of Native Americans, their land and their culture cease to be racially and/or profit motivated?
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#1441526 --- 03/25/14 05:57 PM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: Timbo]
Teonan Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/30/12
Posts: 5389
Loc: Malmö
Originally Posted By: Timbo

Please, tell us all again... at what point in time did the assimilation of Native Americans, their land and their culture cease to be racially and/or profit motivated?

Spot ON Timbo.
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#1441554 --- 03/25/14 09:30 PM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: Timbo]
Rich_Tallcot Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/19/03
Posts: 5586
Loc: Greeneville, TN
The change occurred with the 1934 Indian Reorganization Act. That reversed the Dawes Act whereby individual Indians were each given private ownership of their lands. The IRA promoted communal ownership under tribalism.

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#1441560 --- 03/25/14 10:12 PM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: Rich_Tallcot]
Timbo Offline
Silver Member

Registered: 07/18/12
Posts: 14706
Loc: CNY

Fortunately, a VERY LARGE number (if not the vast majority) of American Indians would clearly disagree:

"The IRA was the last great drive to assimilate the American Indian. It was also a program to colonize the tribes. All else had failed to liberate the Indians from their land: genocide, treaty-making and treaty-breaking, sub-standard education, disruption of Indian religion and culture, and the last and most oppressive of such measures, the Dawes Allotment Act. Assimilation into the dominant society, if by assimilation we mean the adoption of certain technologies and techniques, had already been underway for some hundred years. After all, the Indians were not and are not fools; we are always ready to improve our condition. But assimilation, meaning fading into the general society with a complete loss of our identity and our culture, was another thing entirely, and we had fought against this from the first coming of the white man."

-Indian historian, publisher and journalist, Rupert Costo, Cahuilla

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/tim-giago/good-or-bad-indian-reorga_b_284940.html



Approval by Tribes

Section 18 of the IRA required that members of the affected Indian nation or tribe vote on whether to accept it within one year of the effective date of the act (25 U.S.C. 478), and had to approve it by a majority. There was confusion about who should be allowed to vote on creating new governments, as many non-Indians lived on reservations many Indians owned no land there, and also over the effect of abstentions. Under the voting rules, abstentions were counted as yes votes, but in Oglala Lakota culture, for example, abstention had traditionally equaled a no vote. The resulting confusion caused disputes on many reservations about the results.


Outcome

The act has helped conserve the communal tribal land bases. But, because Congress altered the legislation proposed by Collier, reducing elements of tribal self-government and preserving BIA oversight, leasing authority and other interventions, the act has not been considered as successful in terms of tribal self-governing. On many reservations, its provisions have exacerbated longstanding differences between traditionals and those who had adopted more European-American ways. Many Native Americans believe their traditional systems of government were better for their culture.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Reorganization_Act



“It Didn’t Pan Out as We Thought It Was Going To” - Amos Owen on the Indian Reorganization Act

The Indian Reorganization Act of 1934, which became known as the Indian New Deal, dramatically changed the federal government’s Indian policy. Although John Collier, the commissioner of Indian affairs who was responsible for the new policy, may have viewed Indians with great sympathy, not all Native Americans viewed the Indian New Deal in equally positive terms. In this 1970 interview with historian Herbert T. Hoover, Amos Owen, Mdewakanton Sioux tribal chairman, gave a mixed verdict on the Indian Reorganization Act.

http://historymatters.gmu.edu/d/34/



Negative Impacts of the Indian Reorganization Act of 1934

There were a number of major problems that stemmed from the Indian Reorganization Act (IRA) of 1934. Let us look at one major problem from the point of view of many Native Americans and one major problem from the point of view of non-Indians.

From the Native American point of view, the IRA can be criticized for the fact that it remained rather paternalistic. The IRA did not let the tribes have their own governments that would be completely independent. Instead, it ensured that the tribes would remain under the supervision of the Bureau of Indian Affairs. This was one reason why many tribes rejected the law. They (and like-minded people even today) saw the law as a continuation of the paternalistic attitude of the American government towards the Native Americans.

From the non-Indian point of view, the law helped to create the very messy legal situation that now surrounds all things having to do with Native Americans and their relations with non-Indians. For example, it gave the federal government the right to buy land and convert it into Indian land. This creates a situation in which the government can buy land in a given jurisdiction and give it to an Indian tribe, thus giving them the right to, for example, build a casino. The jurisdiction is then in the position of having a little “island” within it where its laws do not apply.

Thus, the IRA of 1934 can be criticized both from the point of view of Native Americans and non-Indians.

---------------

One of the negative aspects of the Indian Reorganizatin Act was that it was put together so hastily, that many of the tribes were completely skeptical about its effectiveness and the amount of control from the federal government. A large percentage of the tribes (seventy-seven out of roughly two hundred and thirty total tribes) refused to sign it.

One of the primary purposes of the new IRA was to counter-act the Dawes Act and make provisions for stronger tribal governments and leadership; however, in many cases the native americans were not closely enough involved to contribute to the new tribal constitutions, which basically resulted in weaker tribal governments.

The worst failure of the Indian Reorganization Act was that it failed to create a sense of 'buy-in' from the tribes; since they did not feel a sense of ownership over the plan, the native americans' reaction to the programs and new tribal systems were mostly skeptical and negative.

http://www.enotes.com/homework-help/what-bad-things-came-out-indian-reorganization-act-379643


Now then... you were saying? ? ?
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#1441574 --- 03/26/14 03:54 AM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: Timbo]
Rich_Tallcot Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/19/03
Posts: 5586
Loc: Greeneville, TN
Rupert Costco’s analysis statement preceding what your first highlight in red states ( and the last and most oppressive of such measures, the Dawes Allotment Act.) The Dawes Act is what he was referring to.

From that article Costo said, "The IRA was the last great drive to assimilate the American Indian. It was also a program to colonize the tribes. “

But he fails to mention how it would assimilate. Since the enactment of the IRA, approximately five million acres of land have been acquired and placed into trust for Indian tribes and their members. That’s hardly what I call assimilation.

Your second highlight in red refers to voting. The article also states ( Those opposed to the Act feared that it would be detrimental to them because it would be controlled by the federal government. In the end 181 tribes voted in favor of the Act and 77 tribes rejected it.) All of the NY tribes rejected it and the only voting rules in the act were a no vote was to reject.

But confusion by the tribes does not change what the act did.

I agree with the Wikipedia synopsis. Congress did not pass everything Collier wanted and the BIA always did have oversight and traditional systems of government may have been better. But even that leads out with (The act has helped conserve the communal tribal land bases. )

But your question was at what point in time did the assimilation of Native Americans, their land and their culture cease to be racially and/or profit motivated?

The IRA was the point regarding individual Indians, the land and their culture being racially motivated. Legally that is what differentiated individuals from the tribal governments and from racial to political.

Collier made promises on his ideals and Congress did not pass everything he proposed. So if he said if you like your government you can keep it, consider the source from a true blue progressive. Yet, as you also noted 77 tribes rejected it.

As you also highlight in red ( The IRA did not let the tribes have their own governments that would be completely independent. Instead, it ensured that the tribes would remain under the supervision of the Bureau of Indian Affairs)

Well, there are three sovereign in the US Constitution and tribes are not one of them. So for tribes to exist they only do so under the auspices of the federal government as a trustee to a ward. So tribal governments will never be completely independent to the extent some fanaticize.

FIP changed in 1970 under Nixon with a Self Determination policy.

Congress passed the Indian Self-Determination and Education Assistance Act of 1975. It enabled the government to make direct contracts with the Indian tribes just as it does with the states, for implementation of programs and distribution of funds. Rather than the BIA administering programs directly, the government would contract with tribes to manage health care, for instance, or educational benefits.

In 1968, Congress had passed the Indian Civil Rights Act. The bill was to ensure provision of the Bill of Rights to the tribal peoples. But SCOTUS ruled that Self Determination left that up to the tribal governments, which are often the oppressor.

In the following years, Congress passed additional legislation to carry out Nixon's programs to develop a stronger trust relationship between the federal government and the tribes, and to allow the tribes to manage their own affairs.

Examples are the Indian Financing Act of 1974 and the Self-Determination and Education Act of 1975. The Indian Child Welfare Act "... recognized tribal courts as the primary and ultimate forum for welfare and custody cases concerning native children."By promising to look after the tribes' children, the ICWA contributed to the economic and cultural welfare of each tribe's future. The American Indian Religious Freedom Act "...recognized the integrity of native cultures." It ended the persecution of American Indians for such practices as the use of peyote in religion.

Since 1980, administrations have issued Presidential Memoranda on Indian affairs to indicate direction for increased tribal sovereignty. A 1994 Presidential Memorandum issued by Bill Clinton changed the way the U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development supported housing programs. The Native American Housing Assistance and Self-Determination Act of 1996 consolidated grant programs for housing funding into a single block grant specifically available to recognized governments of American Indians and Alaska Natives.

http://historymatters.gmu.edu/d/33/
Alfred Dubray, a Brule Sioux born on the Rosebud Rex. In SD says It had a lot of advantages that many of the people didn’t see, such as making loan funds available, huge amounts of that. Farm programs were developed through this. Cattle-raising programs were initiated. Educational loans were beginning to be made available for Indian youngsters who had never had any opportunities before, hardly, to attend any higher institutions. Unless they just did it by sheer initiative, and if somebody is sponsoring it. So there was a new field there in education, and, of course, mainly the tribal governing body section of it—busy there, and they established their governing body and voted on their representatives and the council members.

I think it was difficult for the people to really recognize what they were doing for probably several years after that, until they got into the change.

Source: Oral history courtesy of Institute of American Indian Studies, South Dakota Oral History Center, University of South Dakota.

So some liked it and some did not. I don't like it either, but that was not the question.

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