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#1439575 --- 03/10/14 07:03 PM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: kyle585]
Timbo Offline
Silver Member

Registered: 07/18/12
Posts: 14706
Loc: CNY
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo

FYI:
Native American per populace enlistment rate is almost the highest of all other races and is in fact the highest for female enlistees.
Why did they volunteer?
This is what is so amazing bluezone. Timbo says they are being treated unfairly. He even use the word obscene. Why would you volunteer to serve in the military of a country that treats you that way? It does not add up at all.
I suggest you ask that question of a Native American Veteran (or better yet, several).
I don't know any but obviously they are being treated far better by the USA than what you say.

Obviously??? How so?

Such is clearly not the case for a disproportionate number of non-veteran Native Americans, and is only true for those who put in their full 20 years.
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#1439578 --- 03/10/14 07:09 PM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: Timbo]
tubby Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/12/08
Posts: 1341
Loc: N.Y.
If thats true maybe they should hit up their gaming commission for some of that 27 billion dollars they made last year.

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#1439581 --- 03/10/14 07:33 PM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: tubby]
kyle585 Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 02/18/09
Posts: 19801
Loc: Somewhere out there
Originally Posted By: tubby
If thats true maybe they should hit up their gaming commission for some of that 27 billion dollars they made last year.
They love their land so much that if they get any they put a casino on it. I guess that gets them closer to nature? grin
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#1439589 --- 03/10/14 08:09 PM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: tubby]
kyle585 Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 02/18/09
Posts: 19801
Loc: Somewhere out there
Hey Tubby, this is the best article I have seen yet on the Indian situation. What do you think?

http://www.citizensalliance.org/links/pa...n%20Article.htm

50 YEARS PAST THE DEADLINE. . .
WHY ARE INDIAN TRIBES STILL SUING OVER ANCIENT TREATIES?


By Randy V. Thompson, Esq.
Stapleton, Nolan, MacGregor & Thompson
St. Paul, Minnesota

and Brandon Thompson

When cultures collide, as they have for centuries, problems will inevitably result. Sometimes the resolution of these problems takes on a military form – one culture becomes the conqueror, and the other the conquered. Sometimes the dominant culture overwhelms and assimilates or eliminates its less powerful rival. Words like “fairness” and “just compensation” rarely are addressed in these situations. As historian Imre Sutton points out, “recognition of the right of an indigenous people to sue a government over the misdeeds of its predecessors is a consideration that few conquerors have ever accorded a subjugated people.”[xx] Instead, the conquered culture is swallowed by the conqueror. Certainly, it would not have been difficult for the United States government to allow the Indian cultures to go this same route. From the infancy of the American republic, however, the government decided to deal with the collision of cultures through treaty making, Congressional action and, in 1946, judicial intervention.

That judicial intervention was the creation of the Indian Claims Commission, which provided a unique judicial forum for what are traditionally military or political issues – one of the few instances in which a “subjugated” people were allowed to sue their “conquerors.” Congress waived the statute of limitations, allowed for the consideration of moral claims, and gave the Commission as much time as it needed in order to fully consider the claims. The trade-off for the tribes, however, was that they had five years during which to file their claims. Congress made it quite clear that “all claims arising before 1946 must be filed within five years of the date of the Act. Such claims that were not filed would be barred.”[xxi]

Ever since the Indian Claims Commission ended in 1978, attorneys on behalf of Indian tribes have sought new ways to file lawsuits over old claims to circumvent the closure intended by Congress in passing the ICCA. For example, because the Act bars all claims against the United States Government, tribes have brought suits against states and even private citizens for claims over the taking of land, trespass, and loss of hunting and fishing rights. Because these claims invariably involve, at their heart, actions or wrongs by the United States, these claims are also barred by the Act.[xxii] Indeed, tribes often asserted these very same claims before the Commission, but whether filed or not, if the claim existed before August 13, 1946, it is forever barred.

The bottom line is that American Indian tribes got their ‘day in court,’ and the tribes succeeded in winning awards in the majority of claims. The Indian Claims Commission Act was designed to create an atmosphere in which the negative actions of the past could be rectified. The passage of the ICCA was a remarkable development in a process designed to hear all claims, and then forever close the door on that chapter of history. Even the tribes themselves, for the most part, agree that they received a fair hearing. As the Commission itself wrote at its conclusion in 1978:

The last question that needs an answer is did the Indians gain their “day in court?” The answer is yes. The Commission was a court, complete with appelate [sic] review. And it was unique among courts in its jurisdiction over “moral claims” and having no statute of limitations except the requirement that the claims must have accrued prior to [August 13th of 1946]. The tribes, represented by some of the best legal talent in the country, litigated more than 500 claims and won awards on over 60 percent of them.[xix]

The Act was unique because it created both a statute of limitations of five years to file claims by August 13, 1951, and a prohibition or jurisdictional bar to the courts ever hearing the tribal lawsuit.

[N]o claim existing before such date but not presented within such period may thereafter be submitted to any court or administrative agency for consideration . . . [xxiii]

Some courts have applied the law as written and dismissed these lawsuits. Other courts have ignored or forgotten the Act. In this twenty-first century, fifty years after the statute of limitations expired, courts need to remember and respect the twentieth century’s unique judicial process to hear and forever decide all tribal claims originating from the 18th, 19th and early 20th centuries.

There is simply no legal issue today whether the tribes were “fully compensated,” or even whether the federal government violated treaty rights many years ago. It may be legitimately argued that the government should have paid tribes interest on the money they held in trust, or that land should have been valued higher, or that more compensation should be given for other losses. Though these are all important questions, they are once again political questions. Congress defined the role of the special commission to decide American Indian claims, and further judicial intervention has been foreclosed. Today, the doors of the courthouse are simply closed to claims that arose between 1776 and 1946. The Indian Claims Commission Act was embraced by tribes, by the government, and by the public because it was a way to adjudicate with finality any and all claims between the government and the Indian tribes. It is time that its purpose, an end to costly and divisive lawsuits, is finally realized.


Randy V. Thompson, Esq. and Brandon Thompson co-authored this article on behalf of Proper Economic Resource Management, Inc. (PERM), a Minnesota non-profit corporation whose mission is the preservation and management of natural resources for all persons.


Edited by kyle585 (03/10/14 08:14 PM)
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#1439590 --- 03/10/14 08:10 PM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: kyle585]
Timbo Offline
Silver Member

Registered: 07/18/12
Posts: 14706
Loc: CNY
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: tubby
If thats true maybe they should hit up their gaming commission for some of that 27 billion dollars they made last year.
They love their land so much that if they get any they put a casino on it. I guess that gets them closer to nature? grin

Still no intention of answering my questions, eh?

You're a real piece of work.
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#1439591 --- 03/10/14 08:12 PM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: Timbo]
kyle585 Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 02/18/09
Posts: 19801
Loc: Somewhere out there
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: tubby
If thats true maybe they should hit up their gaming commission for some of that 27 billion dollars they made last year.
They love their land so much that if they get any they put a casino on it. I guess that gets them closer to nature? grin
Still no intention of answering my questions, eh?

You're a real piece of work.
I have given up talking to you. It is hopeless. This link tells how wrong you are. I am surprised you still have the nerve to post on the Indian situation.

http://www.citizensalliance.org/links/pa...n%20Article.htm


Edited by kyle585 (03/10/14 08:13 PM)
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#1439595 --- 03/10/14 08:19 PM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: Timbo]
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 33792
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Timbo
FYI:
Native American per populace enlistment rate is almost the highest of all other races and is in fact the highest for female enlistees.


so tell us how much the 'tribal' governments pay per year to the USA for defending the 'tribal' lands?



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#1439596 --- 03/10/14 08:24 PM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: Timbo]
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 33792
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Still no intention of answering my questions, eh?

You're a real piece of work.


so tell us why you still live on land that is NOT YOURS?
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#1439598 --- 03/10/14 08:58 PM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: kyle585]
Timbo Offline
Silver Member

Registered: 07/18/12
Posts: 14706
Loc: CNY
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: tubby
If thats true maybe they should hit up their gaming commission for some of that 27 billion dollars they made last year.
They love their land so much that if they get any they put a casino on it. I guess that gets them closer to nature? grin
Still no intention of answering my questions, eh?

You're a real piece of work.
I have given up talking to you. It is hopeless. This link tells how wrong you are. I am surprised you still have the nerve to post on the Indian situation.


Because the facts are on my side:

Here are just a few my questions that you have refused to answer. And don't say that you did, because the thread shows that on each occasion, you either ignored it, changed the subject completely or simply responded with nothing but opinion and speculation.

The rest are just a small example of the many, many times that I have answered your questions or or where I clearly explain my position on matters to which you claim that I did not.

Enjoy! cool

* Obviously??? How so?

* Why don't you begin by providing a list of all the land that the Indians are allegedly demanding be returned.

Be specific and provide an accurate account of the land issue in question along with proper citations as to confirm your assertions. That way I don't have to waste my time on pointless ruminating of fictional issues.

* How many times do I have to answer the question?

* Why do you continue to push this BS theory when I've repeatedly asked you to back it up with some proof? Is it your opinion that you and blue zone are the only ones exempt from answering debate questions?

* Of course you can't imagine otherwise. Because the only one that seems to be suggesting such a ridiculous scenario, is you.

Or perhaps you'd like to provide some evidence to the contrary. &#65532;

* I ask again... are you aware of any laws that abridge the rights guaranteed by them? We're waiting...

* It has absolutely everything to do with it, unless of course, you think that you know of some law that trumps the US Constitution and it's equally binding treaties.

* How does one conceivably draw comparisons between non-correlative racial pride and that of the near extermination of an entire race ? ? ?

And my personal favorite...

* http://www.amnestyusa.org/our-work/issues/women-s-rights/violence-against-women/maze-of-injustice
http://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1065&context=nebanthro
http://scholarship.law.umt.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1399&context=mlr
http://nadiscrimination.blogspot.com/2007/07/primary-source-modern-indian.html
http://www.californiaindianeducation.org/student_works/manifest_destiny_crimes/
http://www.h-net.org/reviews/showrev.php?id=29737
http://www.tribal-institute.org/lists/ChildrensCriminalCode.htm
http://www.blogher.com/ongoing-atrocities-against-native-american-women
http://www.lambda.org/apa_hate.pdf

"I am certainly not going to read all those links."

EXACTLY.


















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#1439601 --- 03/10/14 09:10 PM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: Timbo]
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 33792
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Because the facts are on my side:


only if you live in timboland crazy

maybe you should have the 'tribal' governement pay your navy benefits
cuz you were protecting their land (your claim)
or would they laugh at you?
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#1439616 --- 03/10/14 11:59 PM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: Timbo]
kyle585 Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 02/18/09
Posts: 19801
Loc: Somewhere out there
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Here are just a few my questions that you have refused to answer. And don't say that you did, because the thread shows that on each occasion, you either ignored it, changed the subject completely or simply responded with nothing but opinion and speculation.

The rest are just a small example of the many, many times that I have answered your questions or or where I clearly explain my position on matters to which you claim that I did not.
What a shame you did all that work. This link makes all your questions meaningless.

http://www.citizensalliance.org/links/pa...n%20Article.htm
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#1439647 --- 03/11/14 10:42 AM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: tubby]
teedoff27 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/11/11
Posts: 2272
Loc: S2Hphoto
Originally Posted By: tubby
If thats true maybe they should hit up their gaming commission for some of that 27 billion dollars they made last year.


What about the BILLIONS that were made at the NYS run Racino's that are supposed to be to fund education. Less than 23% of the profit goes towards education.
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#1439651 --- 03/11/14 11:43 AM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: teedoff27]
kyle585 Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 02/18/09
Posts: 19801
Loc: Somewhere out there
Originally Posted By: teedoff27
Originally Posted By: tubby
If thats true maybe they should hit up their gaming commission for some of that 27 billion dollars they made last year.


What about the BILLIONS that were made at the NYS run Racino's that are supposed to be to fund education. Less than 23% of the profit goes towards education.
http://nylottery.ny.gov/wps/portal/!ut/p/c4/04_SB8K8xLLM9MSSzPy8xBz9CP0os_jggBC3kDBPE0MLC0dnA09vT0fLQDNvA0dfU_2CbEdFALm-TnU!/?PC_7_SPTFTVI4188AC0IKIA9Q6K0QS0_WCM_CONTEXT=/wps/wcm/connect/NYSL+Content+Library/NYSL+Internet+Site/About+Us/Mission+for+Education/Where+the+Money+Goes

The New York Lottery contributed $3.04 billion in fiscal year 2012-2013 to help support education in New York State, nearly 15 percent of total state education funding to local school districts. The New York Lottery continues to be North America's largest and most profitable Lottery, earning over $48.3 billion in education support statewide since its founding over 45 years ago.

http://www.whec.com/article/stories/s3298745.shtml

So why do so many people question the lottery and school taxes? The state legislature uses money from the general fund to pay state aid to schools. Then there’s the lottery aid, which can only be used for education. The state replaces school aid with that so they don’t have to raise state taxes, but since state aid never pays the whole bill, local school districts end up raising taxes to make the money add up. Plus, when the recession hit in 2009, the state began taking back aid from schools and has done that every year since


Edited by kyle585 (03/11/14 11:46 AM)
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#1439663 --- 03/11/14 01:45 PM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: kyle585]
Timbo Offline
Silver Member

Registered: 07/18/12
Posts: 14706
Loc: CNY
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Here are just a few my questions that you have refused to answer. And don't say that you did, because the thread shows that on each occasion, you either ignored it, changed the subject completely or simply responded with nothing but opinion and speculation.

The rest are just a small example of the many, many times that I have answered your questions or or where I clearly explain my position on matters to which you claim that I did not.
What a shame you did all that work. This link makes all your questions meaningless.

http://www.citizensalliance.org/links/pa...n%20Article.htm

If you ignore the fact that I do indeed answer your questions (repeatedly) and that none of the information contained on that linked website (which by the way, consists mostly of opinions, half-truths, propaganda and one-sided arguments), then yeah, you sure did show me, alright. grin crazy

You certainly haven't answered any of my questions.

Now, get a grip, grow up, stop fabricating your own version of the facts and answer my questions.
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#1439667 --- 03/11/14 02:46 PM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: Timbo]
kyle585 Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 02/18/09
Posts: 19801
Loc: Somewhere out there
Originally Posted By: Timbo
If you ignore the fact that I do indeed answer your questions (repeatedly)
Do you have any Indian blood in you? Where is your homeland? Do you own property in America?
Originally Posted By: VM Smith
The whole of the Americas was expropriated. Talk is cheap. Anyone who is actually personally committed would set a good example and just give his land to the Indians, and quit telling others what to do and think.

Me? I won't go back to Ireland. There are none with my last name left there; they were all either starved to death or otherwise killed, driven to emigrate, or sold as slaves, mostly to the Americas, including the West Indies and N. America. We were among the 13,000 Palatine Germans who went to England and were forcibly resettled from there, one way or another, to Ireland and to other places.

Many things have happened that can't be undone without inflicting further harm; I choose to live in the present.

Faulkner said: The past isn't dead. It's not even past.

That's true, but it also can't be substantially changed, without inflicting further pain and suffering, after the passage of much time.

Sure, Columbus was a brutal, callous conqueror, but he was, in one sense, merely a facilitator of the inevitable spreading of the various peoples around the world, and that won't be undone, nor can it, or should it, be.

I'm obviously against world government, but one world of people is a different thing, and an inevitably happening fact. It has been since the African diaspora, the popling of Europe, asia, and Austrailia, and on through the peopling of the Americas, and Alexander, Nicolo, Maffeo, and Marco, Polo, Ghengis Khan and Columbus. It's continuing in the present.

To assume that history should have stopped, or could have been, and that the Americas should have remained Indian, or that it should now be magically rewound, is as dumb as assuming that they should stay white. Population flow is like the tides, and even King Knute, in a relatively less sophisticated and knowledgeable time, knew that that they couldn't be commanded.
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#1439668 --- 03/11/14 02:50 PM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: Timbo]
kyle585 Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 02/18/09
Posts: 19801
Loc: Somewhere out there
Originally Posted By: Timbo
none of the information contained on that linked website (which by the way, consists mostly of opinions, half-truths, propaganda and one-sided arguments)
Baloney. That linked website makes more sense that anything I have ever read on the Indian fiasco.

I don't know why I keep responding to someone who is so prejudice on this Indian debacle.


Edited by kyle585 (03/11/14 02:56 PM)
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#1439670 --- 03/11/14 03:12 PM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: Timbo]
kyle585 Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 02/18/09
Posts: 19801
Loc: Somewhere out there
Originally Posted By: Timbo
The only issue is that two entire continents of people have been displaced and nearly wiped out by invading forces.
Originally Posted By: VM Smith
To assume that history should have stopped, or could have been, and that the Americas should have remained Indian, or that it should now be magically rewound, is as dumb as assuming that they should stay white. Population flow is like the tides, and even King Knute, in a relatively less sophisticated and knowledgeable time, knew that that they couldn't be commanded.
"dumb" is certainly the key word here if you think we can do anything significant about it hundreds of years later.
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#1439671 --- 03/11/14 03:13 PM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: Timbo]
kyle585 Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 02/18/09
Posts: 19801
Loc: Somewhere out there
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Now, please go back and answer my several questions over the past few pages. Or are you simply above it all?
I am very far above it.
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#1439676 --- 03/11/14 03:42 PM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: kyle585]
Timbo Offline
Silver Member

Registered: 07/18/12
Posts: 14706
Loc: CNY
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Do you have any Indian blood in you? Where is your homeland? Do you own property in America?

Non sequitur.

It's also none of your business.
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#1439678 --- 03/11/14 03:53 PM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: kyle585]
Timbo Offline
Silver Member

Registered: 07/18/12
Posts: 14706
Loc: CNY
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Timbo
none of the information contained on that linked website (which by the way, consists mostly of opinions, half-truths, propaganda and one-sided arguments)
Baloney. That linked website makes more sense that anything I have ever read on the Indian fiasco.

Then prove it, just as I proved that you consistently make false statements, refuse to answer questions while selfishly demanding that others do so themselves, that you are unwilling to back up your assertions (likely due to the combined fact that your claims are often nonsense and that you probably lack the constitution to digest the information that I've provided) and more importantly, would probably refuse to admit those truths (assuming that you were actually capable of comprehending the information, in the first place), all in order to save face, rather than having to admit (publicly AND personally) that you actually learned something new, thereby necessitating a reconsideration of your ideologies.

But hey... that's just a hunch. grin
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