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#1439568 - 03/10/14 12:16 PM Still More Tribal News
Rich_Tallcot Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/19/03
Posts: 4608
Loc: Greeneville, TN
Anticipating that some may have learned to stay on topic and refrain from personal comments I lead off with the following
http://online.wsj.com/article/APee78173900b5442dbbe4a48b3db16d67.html
Tribes seek to hold ground ahead of new NY casinos

BUFFALO, N.Y. - With New York state about to take bids for its first non-Indian casinos, tribes looking to hold their ground have been upgrading their existing casinos and exploring new ones.

The Seneca Indian Nation, which operates three casinos in Buffalo, Niagara Falls and Salamanca under a 2002 compact with the state, bought 32 acres outside Rochester last week for a potential fourth location.

A day later, the Oneida Nation unveiled a $15 million investment in new cash slot machines to replace prepay terminals and a revamped loyalty program at its 20-year-old Turning Stone casino in Verona.

[They also opted for megs jackpots with other casinos which may put into question how they figure the percentages paid to the State.]

The Seneca and Oneida sites could face competition from a $350 million non-Indian casino, hotel and entertainment complex envisioned roughly midway between them in a sliver of the state separating the Seneca exclusivity zone and Oneida exclusivity zone, which also grants gaming rights to the Cayuga Indian Nation, whose reservation lies within it.

"Our location, which is virtually midway between Syracuse and Rochester, is a very attractive location because it's between two population centers and it's connected via the Thruway," said Juris Basens, vice president for casino operations at Rochester-based Wilmorite, one of several developers who have made public their plans to apply for one of the first non-Indian casino licenses to be awarded later this year.

Seneca officials, who will likely need state and federal approval for a fourth casino, said plans for the new Monroe County property have yet to be developed, but Cathy Walker, president and chief executive of Seneca Gaming Corp., appeared unfazed by the prospect of a casino two counties over.

"The market in the Rochester region is underserved, and there is sufficient market for all to do well," Walker said.

Oneida spokesman Joel Barkin said the investment in Turning Stone was among the largest in years and follows last year's $25 million addition of an entertainment and restaurant complex. "This was done in response to guest feedback and to make sure we're at the cutting edge of the gaming experience," Barkin said.

Agreements reached between Gov. Andrew Cuomo and the state's tribal leaders last year preserve vast sections in western, central and northern New York as "exclusivity zones" for tribal development only. The Seneca, Mohawk and Oneida Indian nations currently have a total of five casinos in those areas.

New York is in line for up to seven full-scale non-Indian casinos after voters in November approved a constitutional amendment to expand casino gambling as a way to create jobs, generate revenue for schools and ease property taxes.

The state's request for proposals is expected this month for the first round of as many as four casinos to be built in designated upstate areas in the Catskills, Southern Tier and Albany region. Developers have already announced proposals for casinos in Nichols, near the Pennsylvania border, Binghamton and the Ulster County towns of Ellenville and Kerhonkson

The state's Gaming Commission, headed by Hobart and Williams Smith Colleges President Mark Gearan, is expected to appoint members to a casino siting board when it meets Wednesday.

Adding to the recent casino debate this past week was a resolution by the Saratoga Springs City Council opposing a Las Vegas-style casino in that thoroughbred racing city, which is among those being eyed by developers.

"For me, quality of life doesn't mean more gambling culture," said Jonathon Newell, leader of The Dirty Harri Band, one of several artists who have joined in opposition.

Meanwhile, an online petition by the No More Casinos Coalition, with support from Finger Lakes Gaming and Racetrack and Batavia Downs, two of the state's nine racetrack/video gaming halls, had drawn more than 1,800 electronic signatures in opposition of a fourth Seneca Nation casino.

Lawmakers in Genesee, Niagara, Orleans and Wyoming counties also have opposed the Seneca plans, saying they would harm the Batavia track. The facility is owned by Western Regional Off-Track Betting, whose profits go to 15 counties.

"This region is oversaturated with casino gaming, and another facility will cause irreparable harm to thousands of businesses, families and municipalities throughout the region," said Michael Nolan, executive vice president of WROTB.

The Indian gaming industry generated $27.9 billion in 2012, according to the National Indian Gaming Commission. While it was the highest-ever total, the number has been relatively flat since 2007, when revenues totaled just over $26 billion.

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#1439592 - 03/10/14 03:16 PM Re: Still More Tribal News [Re: Rich_Tallcot]
kyle585 Offline
Silver Member

Registered: 02/18/09
Posts: 11228
Loc: Somewhere out there
Good job Rich.

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#1439593 - 03/10/14 03:16 PM Re: Still More Tribal News [Re: Rich_Tallcot]
VM Smith Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 11/28/05
Posts: 38160
Loc: Ship of Fools
Nice post. I don't gamble; it holds zero attraction for me. I think people should be allowed to gamble, if they wish, and it is not the province of government to become involved in that at all.

But government has been involved, and will be. One thing that has irritated me about Indian gambling is that it has been one more example of government picking "winners and losers"; of bestowing special treatment and favors. That is, if Indians are allowed to run casinos, then other groups should be too. In fact, as a libertarian, I think that anyone should be allowed to open a casino, or run a poker tournament or a lottery, and shouldn't need the permission of government. That's not going to happen any time soon.

I think It's a good thing that NYS has allowed other groups to open casinos, even though I don't want to live near one.

Re "saturation": I don't care if the number of casinos doubles, let's say, so that the take of the existing ones maybe will be cut in half. It's not government's business to decide how much or how little any given group or corportion should make from its operations. Competition is a good thing, including in the % of payout, which has an influence on who gambles where.

I think that, except for, and even despite, considerations of where the population centers are, and travel distances involved, people will naturally gravitate to the best run, most attractive casinos, with the best payouts, now that the government-bestowed, artificial monopoly has been eased somewhat, and somewhat more competition has been allowed.

The Indians, because of the need to meet the new competition, now have the incentive to make some changes and upgrades, and have started to do so.

Let the games begin!

Also, you and I were both in the CLC area, and we were sued, over historical events and actions that we had taken no part in. Neither of us ended up losing any land because of the suit, but still, being sued is personal, and a simplistic person might well take our stance on the NYS Indian issue to be largely a personal one. I disagree; it's a matter of fairness. Because NY was a Colony, and because of the course of the Revolution, and treaties having been made with NY, rather than with the US, NY is a unique case. Also, the Conquest here, and brutal as conquests are, was not the same as the Western US genocide. For one thing, there are no deserts or badlands here, and although Eastern Indians were restricted and confined, their reservations still can't be described as open air concentration camps, on land fit for neither cow nor crop. To me, fi, the Onondaga Res looks as good as any other CNY patch of land.

To the extent that the Indians were treated unfairly in the East, that occurred by the pressure of the oncoming whites, as a whole, as much as by government actions. In the West, after the Civil War, in which Sherman, et al, had developed the techniques of total war, including the organized practice of deliberate starvation, bank robbery, theft of personal property, destruction of personal property and public infrastructure, rape, and murder, it was, much more, the announced policy of the USG, which used most of those techniques against the Indians. If the Indians had had banks, all would have been used.

I ramble, but I mean to say that the fact that you are still involved and concerned with the NYS issue tells me that, as I've long thought, you view it as an issue of law and fairness, rather than as some sort of personal vendetta, as the more simplistically reductionist and pejorative usually choose to frame it.

And, now that you're down in the area of the 5 "Civilized" tribes, do you want to share any thoughts on any issues that may be existing there, or do you, perhaps, not want to confuse/dilute this thread? I just wrote of organized, announced USG policy; that really started with Jackson's US military actions against the Seminoles, and the removal of the Cherokees and the other tribes to the West, and related events.


Edited by VM Smith (03/10/14 03:44 PM)
_________________________
If you vote for government, you have no right to complain about what government does.

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#1439594 - 03/10/14 03:18 PM Re: Still More Tribal News [Re: VM Smith]
kyle585 Offline
Silver Member

Registered: 02/18/09
Posts: 11228
Loc: Somewhere out there
Originally Posted By: VM Smith
Nice post. I don't gamble; it holds zero attraction for me. I think people should be allowed to gamble, if they wish, and it is not the province of government to become involved in that at all.

On thing that has irritated me about Indian gambling is that it has been one more example of government picking "winners and loser"; of bestowing special treatment and favors. That is, if Indians are allowed to run casinos, then other groups should be too.
I totally agree.

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#1439630 - 03/10/14 11:23 PM Re: Still More Tribal News [Re: VM Smith]
Rich_Tallcot Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/19/03
Posts: 4608
Loc: Greeneville, TN
It never has been personal to me. Once I passed information overload it became a matter of principle. My involvement with CERA keeps me active throughout the country. The feds use tribes for land grabs and land status is everything. If it becomes federal trust land it is not just taxes which do not apply. It is jurisdiction and territorial status where the U.S. Constitution does not apply. The only things that do apply are the 7 crimes in the Major Crimes Act and justice is a farce. I will refrain from ramble but I could do so easily.

My issue with NYS concerns the Oneida ROD and the precedents it could set. The amended ROD is a bigger farce, but that will work its way through the courts. It has become a chess game and the Bay Mills case may change the rules. The settlement really did not change anything because at least three lawsuits against the ROD will proceed. Bay Mills involves a tribe opening a casino on fee land in Michigan and, unlike NY, the Governor is fighting them on it.

Casinos attract those looking for something for nothing and those appendages looking to take advantage of them. They are the means to buy politicians regardless of who owns them and I think they should be legal regardless of how stupid I think they are. They bleed the host communities dry regardless of who owns them. Again, land status is the only reason I would oppose a tribal casino.

I have not become aware of any tribal issues here but I have not really checked. The Cherokee have a rez which may overlap TN and NC and they have a casino and they eliminated blood quantum requirements to be a member. There are many allegedly NA on the dating sites and the first one I dated had a goal of becoming a tribal member. Said her great grandmother was a full blood but because she married a Caucasian the marriage was not recorded and she could not prove her genealogy. I could have explained that NA genealogy is traced on the mother's side. But that is one less tribal member. Oh well. Stuck with my fifth date, a widower who was married to an NA. But he wasn't tribal and she thinks they should all pay taxes.

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#1439747 - 03/12/14 01:33 PM Re: Still More Tribal News [Re: Rich_Tallcot]
Rich_Tallcot Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/19/03
Posts: 4608
Loc: Greeneville, TN
http://www.syracuse.com/news/index.ssf/2...t_goes_int.html
Oneida Indian Nation pays $11 million to New York as sweeping settlement goes into effect

For the first time since Turning Stone casino opened in 1993, the Oneida Indian nation has started sharing its profits with the state.
The Oneidas this week paid $11 million to the state, the first installment required by the sweeping settlement ratified by a federal judge last week. That money will be transferred to Madison County in "full satisfaction of tax revenues of any kind" that the county will not get from Oneida-owned land.
The wide-ranging settlement ends decades of legal battles over land and taxes between the Oneida nation and Madison and Oneida counties. It also allows the nation to get 25,000 acres of land set aside by the federal government for the tribe's use. That land is not taxable and is not subject to state or local control.
The settlement also calls for the Oneidas to pay 25 percent of the revenues from its 2,000 slot machines at Turning Stone. The payment will be an estimated $50 million a year. In return, the Oneidas get the exclusive rights to operate a casino in nine Central New York counties.
Here's what else will happen now that the agreement is final:
-- Oneida nation police will be given police powers in Oneida County even when they're not on nation-owned land.
-- More than 13,000 acres of Oneida-owned land will be taken over by the federal government as trust land. That means the land will no longer be subject to state and local control or taxes.
-- The Oneidas can apply to have 12,000 more acres put into trust.
-- Madison and Oneida counties will drop all lawsuits challenging the tax status of Oneida nation land.
-- Madison County gets $3.5 million a year, and Oneida County gets $2.5 million a year plus 25 percent of the money the nation pays to the state. All of this money comes from the money paid by the Oneidas to the state.
-- Eight other counties will get money from the nation payment. Onondaga County is expected to get $2.5 million, which County Executive Joanie Mahoney plans to use to pay for a proposed amphitheater near Onondaga Lake.
-- The Oneidas will charge - and keep - the same sales taxes on goods that are taxed by the state, and taxes equal to what the state charges on cigarettes and gasoline

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#1439748 - 03/12/14 01:34 PM Re: Still More Tribal News [Re: Rich_Tallcot]
Rich_Tallcot Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/19/03
Posts: 4608
Loc: Greeneville, TN
http://romesentinel.com/news?newsid=20140310-003820
Higher prices for gas, cigarettes on table in settlement with Oneida Nation

The agreement does not end all legal actions involving the nation. Lawsuits initiated by groups other than the state and two counties challenging the 2008 trust land approval for the Oneidas by the U.S. Department of the Interior and last year's agreement can continue.

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#1439749 - 03/12/14 01:35 PM Re: Still More Tribal News [Re: Rich_Tallcot]
Rich_Tallcot Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/19/03
Posts: 4608
Loc: Greeneville, TN
http://www.oneidadispatch.com/general-ne...pril-1#comments
Madison County to receive first $11 million from Oneida Nation settlement by April 1 (Update)

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#1439750 - 03/12/14 01:36 PM Re: Still More Tribal News [Re: Rich_Tallcot]
Rich_Tallcot Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/19/03
Posts: 4608
Loc: Greeneville, TN
http://www.democratandchronicle.com/stor...e-case/6270613/
Slow going in Seneca-Cayuga seizure Case


Also on FL1 Home page news

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#1439864 - 03/13/14 10:09 AM Re: Still More Tribal News [Re: Rich_Tallcot]
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 29589
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
More than 13,000 acres of Oneida-owned land will be taken over by the federal government as trust land. That means the land will no longer be subject to state and local control or taxes.


who will own the roads and maintain them?
who will own the water, sewer, power systems and maintain them over those lands?
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"OUR COUNTRY IS IN MOURNING, A SOLDIER DIED TODAY."

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#1439906 - 03/13/14 03:32 PM Re: Still More Tribal News [Re: bluezone]
Rich_Tallcot Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/19/03
Posts: 4608
Loc: Greeneville, TN
IF, big IF, it becomes federal trust land the federal government owns the land and everything on it and in it. The State, any affected municipalities and utility companies will probably have to get new right of ways approved by the Secretary of the DOI through the BLM (Bureau of Land Management).

Act of March 3, 1901 (25 U.S.C. § 311) authorized the Secretary to grant rights-of-way to a State or local authority for the opening an establishment of public highways in accordance with State law through Indian reservations and allotted lands.

On other trust lands everything that was maintained continues to be maintained by those that had been doing so, generally along with agreements by the tribe and federal government. There may be municipalities that dissolve and counties that merge for the obvious reasons. You can't do something with nothing. There are a myriad of issues and questions which will likely result in the State getting more lawsuits filed against it than it just had dismissed. The State could use sovereign immunity to block them, but it cannot do so against a civil rights lawsuit. A class action may well cost the State more than it allegedly saved.

Federal water quality standards are nowhere near as high as the State and an example of that is, if the Village of Union Springs were under federal standards, they would not have had to build a $250,000 stripper building. In fact if Union Springs were in Pennsylvania they would not have had to build it. The residents would just be drinking trichloretheleye without knowing it.

Under the Winter's doctrine tribes have a right to use as much water as they want to suit their needs. So if they build a casino or strip mall or golf course, they could diminish the water source or overwhelm the sewage plants with no recourse.

A friend has a cattle ranch in South Dakota with a neighboring tribal casino. The sewage from the casino forms a river across his property. That is shown in the video which accompanies Elaine Willman's book Going to Pieces.

The settlement rammed through by Prince Andrew was not even finalized when the counties were intimidated into voting on it. It was another one of those, you have to pass it to see what's in it and details will be worked out later.

So you might better present your question to the State. None of this was addressed in the settlement.

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#1439910 - 03/13/14 05:14 PM Re: Still More Tribal News [Re: Rich_Tallcot]
Timbo Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/18/12
Posts: 9763
Loc: CNY
Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
IF, big IF, it becomes federal trust land the federal government owns the land and everything on it and in it. The State, any affected municipalities and utility companies will probably have to get new right of ways approved by the Secretary of the DOI through the BLM (Bureau of Land Management).

Act of March 3, 1901 (25 U.S.C. § 311) authorized the Secretary to grant rights-of-way to a State or local authority for the opening an establishment of public highways in accordance with State law through Indian reservations and allotted lands.

On other trust lands everything that was maintained continues to be maintained by those that had been doing so, generally along with agreements by the tribe and federal government. There may be municipalities that dissolve and counties that merge for the obvious reasons. You can't do something with nothing. There are a myriad of issues and questions which will likely result in the State getting more lawsuits filed against it than it just had dismissed. The State could use sovereign immunity to block them, but it cannot do so against a civil rights lawsuit. A class action may well cost the State more than it allegedly saved.

Federal water quality standards are nowhere near as high as the State and an example of that is, if the Village of Union Springs were under federal standards, they would not have had to build a $250,000 stripper building. In fact if Union Springs were in Pennsylvania they would not have had to build it. The residents would just be drinking trichloretheleye without knowing it.

Under the Winter's doctrine tribes have a right to use as much water as they want to suit their needs. So if they build a casino or strip mall or golf course, they could diminish the water source or overwhelm the sewage plants with no recourse.

A friend has a cattle ranch in South Dakota with a neighboring tribal casino. The sewage from the casino forms a river across his property. That is shown in the video which accompanies Elaine Willman's book Going to Pieces.

The settlement rammed through by Prince Andrew was not even finalized when the counties were intimidated into voting on it. It was another one of those, you have to pass it to see what's in it and details will be worked out later.

So you might better present your question to the State. None of this was addressed in the settlement.

Jeezuz Rich, That's an awfully big heap of hypothetical FUD (Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt).
_________________________
Everyone's entitled to their own opinions, but not their own facts.

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#1439913 - 03/13/14 05:58 PM Re: Still More Tribal News [Re: Timbo]
Rich_Tallcot Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/19/03
Posts: 4608
Loc: Greeneville, TN
Originally Posted By: Timbo


Jeezuz Rich, That's an awfully big heap of hypothetical FUD (Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt).
Nope. Just facts. Fear mongering is Prince Andrew’s forte`. Fear of the unknown is a great fear and there are a lot of unknowns in the settlement. As noted by Judge Kahn, the feds are not even part of the deal and it did not stop at least three of the lawsuits against the ROD.

But thank you for your opinion.

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#1439914 - 03/13/14 06:19 PM Re: Still More Tribal News [Re: Rich_Tallcot]
Timbo Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/18/12
Posts: 9763
Loc: CNY
Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
Originally Posted By: Timbo


Jeezuz Rich, That's an awfully big heap of hypothetical FUD (Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt).
Nope. Just facts. Fear mongering is Prince Andrew’s forte`. Fear of the unknown is a great fear and there are a lot of unknowns in the settlement. As noted by Judge Kahn, the feds are not even part of the deal and it did not stop at least three of the lawsuits against the ROD.

But thank you for your opinion.

You're welcome.

But, those are clearly NOT facts, they are purely hypotheticals... and are exceedingly far reaching ones, at that.
_________________________
Everyone's entitled to their own opinions, but not their own facts.

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#1439930 - 03/14/14 04:28 AM Re: Still More Tribal News [Re: Timbo]
VM Smith Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 11/28/05
Posts: 38160
Loc: Ship of Fools
Quote:
That's an awfully big heap of hypothetical FUD (Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt).


The fear is not hypothetical; it is real. It is based on entirely understandable uncertainty and doubt, informed by precedent.
_________________________
If you vote for government, you have no right to complain about what government does.

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#1439968 - 03/14/14 08:53 AM Re: Still More Tribal News [Re: VM Smith]
kyle585 Offline
Silver Member

Registered: 02/18/09
Posts: 11228
Loc: Somewhere out there
Originally Posted By: VM Smith
Quote:
That's an awfully big heap of hypothetical FUD (Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt).


The fear is not hypothetical; it is real. It is based on entirely understandable uncertainty and doubt, informed by precedent.
Well said, VM Smith. Not everything in this world is 100% fact as Timbo likes to insist upon.

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#1440015 - 03/14/14 03:16 PM Re: Still More Tribal News [Re: kyle585]
Rich_Tallcot Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/19/03
Posts: 4608
Loc: Greeneville, TN
I had a thought of elaborating examples and show where people in a dozen or more states were told their situation was unique only to discover they all had the same situation. But replying to a waste of space and time is a waste of space and time.

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#1440023 - 03/14/14 05:26 PM Re: Still More Tribal News [Re: Rich_Tallcot]
kyle585 Offline
Silver Member

Registered: 02/18/09
Posts: 11228
Loc: Somewhere out there
Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
I had a thought of elaborating examples and show where people in a dozen or more states were told their situation was unique only to discover they all had the same situation. But replying to a waste of space and time is a waste of space and time.
Use you time wisely Rich. You have a lot more important irons in the fire that arguing with a knucklehead or two on FL1.

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#1440026 - 03/14/14 05:38 PM Re: Still More Tribal News [Re: VM Smith]
Timbo Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/18/12
Posts: 9763
Loc: CNY
Originally Posted By: VM Smith
Quote:
That's an awfully big heap of hypothetical FUD (Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt).

The fear is not hypothetical;it is real. It is based on entirely understandable uncertainty and doubt, informed by precedent.

And a lot of disinformation...

yet utterly unjustifiable as a foundation for establishing policy or law, unless of course, you believe that evidence should no longer be a prerequisite for establishing legal doctrine.

"I'm afraid of X (bogeyman of your choice). Make "X" illegal.

What a ridiculous argument. crazy
_________________________
Everyone's entitled to their own opinions, but not their own facts.

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#1440028 - 03/14/14 05:41 PM Re: Still More Tribal News [Re: kyle585]
Timbo Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/18/12
Posts: 9763
Loc: CNY
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
I had a thought of elaborating examples and show where people in a dozen or more states were told their situation was unique only to discover they all had the same situation. But replying to a waste of space and time is a waste of space and time.
Use you time wisely Rich. You have a lot more important irons in the fire that arguing with a knucklehead or two on FL1.

And the way the tide is turning, he's going to need every minute of it.
_________________________
Everyone's entitled to their own opinions, but not their own facts.

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