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#1439408 --- 03/09/14 12:12 AM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: Teonan]
kyle585 Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 02/18/09
Posts: 19801
Loc: Somewhere out there
Originally Posted By: Teonan
Such a notion is unfathomable to Kyle. He embraces a logic which holds that indigenous peoples must assimilate - or disappear. In fact, they must always be disappearing in order to rationalize and enable claims to their traditional landbase.

Land - the key component to the values, cosmology and worldview of indigenous peoples. Little wonder it's removal from those it sustains is the coveted weapon of choice.
If they join the US military service, doesn't that show their desire to be assimilated?

What is their traditional landbase? All of North and South America I would say. If you think they are getting all of that back, you are totally wacky.

All you and Timbo can do is talk in generalities but are not capable of telling us what we need to do to accommodate them. Trying to discuss it with you two is becoming beyond ridiculous.


Edited by kyle585 (03/09/14 12:16 AM)
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#1439409 --- 03/09/14 12:24 AM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: Timbo]
kyle585 Offline
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Registered: 02/18/09
Posts: 19801
Loc: Somewhere out there
Originally Posted By: Timbo
I refuse to answer a question that is purely hypothetical and therefor pointless.
Well you are winning. I see the tribal thread in Cayuga County has been locked. Congratulations. You are making this debate so ridiculous that our grievances against these tribes not paying their fair share of taxes can be aired.
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#1439416 --- 03/09/14 01:02 AM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: kyle585]
Timbo Offline
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Registered: 07/18/12
Posts: 14706
Loc: CNY
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Teonan
Such a notion is unfathomable to Kyle. He embraces a logic which holds that indigenous peoples must assimilate - or disappear. In fact, they must always be disappearing in order to rationalize and enable claims to their traditional landbase.

Land - the key component to the values, cosmology and worldview of indigenous peoples. Little wonder it's removal from those it sustains is the coveted weapon of choice.
If they join the US military service, doesn't that show their desire to be assimilated?

What is their traditional landbase? All of North and South America I would say. If you think they are getting all of that back, you are totally wacky.

All you and Timbo can do is talk in generalities but are not capable of telling us what we need to do to accommodate them. Trying to discuss it with you two is becoming beyond ridiculous.

You're free to discuss it with someone else, if you'd like.
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#1439417 --- 03/09/14 01:13 AM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: Timbo]
kyle585 Offline
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Registered: 02/18/09
Posts: 19801
Loc: Somewhere out there
Originally Posted By: Timbo
You're free to discuss it with someone else, if you'd like.
You are just about the only two jokers on here who disagree with me. I don't know why I have wasted so much time on you.
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#1439433 --- 03/09/14 11:51 AM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: bluezone]
teedoff27 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/11/11
Posts: 2272
Loc: S2Hphoto
So you are trying to say because the other 10,223 registered members of this forum do not comment on these threads they AGREE with you???

If that were true....which it's NOT..... They would of been able to muster more than 13 people for a protest! Also what about the hundreds of customers who patronize Lakeside trading a day..... do they agree with you too??!!?? What about the county employees who take the Seneca Bus on their breaks to Lakeside....they agree with you too??!!??
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#1439434 --- 03/09/14 12:16 PM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: teedoff27]
kyle585 Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 02/18/09
Posts: 19801
Loc: Somewhere out there
Originally Posted By: teedoff27
So you are trying to say because the other 10,223 registered members of this forum do not comment on these threads they AGREE with you???

If that were true....which it's NOT..... They would of been able to muster more than 13 people for a protest! Also what about the hundreds of customers who patronize Lakeside trading a day..... do they agree with you too??!!?? What about the county employees who take the Seneca Bus on their breaks to Lakeside....they agree with you too??!!??
Your reply here says it is to bluezone but I think you meant to reply to me? You don't agree with me on the Indian situation obviously but you are very different than Timbo and Teonan. You disagree on a practical side thinking you are saving money by buying products from them. There are undboubtely a lot of people on here like that. Timbo and Teonan are very hard to figure out. Sometimes it sounds like they think we should give all of America back to the Indians. I am sure you don't want that? But they won't come out and say that. They refuse to be pinned down on what they want. So trying to debate with them is a real exercise in futility. That is what I meant.
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#1439442 --- 03/09/14 02:29 PM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: kyle585]
Timbo Offline
Silver Member

Registered: 07/18/12
Posts: 14706
Loc: CNY
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: teedoff27
So you are trying to say because the other 10,223 registered members of this forum do not comment on these threads they AGREE with you???

If that were true....which it's NOT..... They would of been able to muster more than 13 people for a protest! Also what about the hundreds of customers who patronize Lakeside trading a day..... do they agree with you too??!!?? What about the county employees who take the Seneca Bus on their breaks to Lakeside....they agree with you too??!!??
Your reply here says it is to bluezone but I think you meant to reply to me? You don't agree with me on the Indian situation obviously but you are very different than Timbo and Teonan. You disagree on a practical side thinking you are saving money by buying products from them. There are undboubtely a lot of people on here like that. Timbo and Teonan are very hard to figure out. Sometimes it sounds like they think we should give all of America back to the Indians. I am sure you don't want that? But they won't come out and say that. They refuse to be pinned down on what they want. So trying to debate with them is a real exercise in futility. That is what I meant.

For you perhaps.

If you stop expecting one-sided, dead-simple solutions to issues that are neither, then I suspect that you'll begin to understand that which you have previously failed to grasp.
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#1439450 --- 03/09/14 03:02 PM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: teedoff27]
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 33253
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: teedoff27
So you are trying to say because the other 10,223 registered members of this forum do not comment on these threads they AGREE with you???


you and timbo refuse to give 'your' land back to the 'tribe'

give us a list of all those that have given the land back the 'tribe'?
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#1439451 --- 03/09/14 03:07 PM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: Teonan]
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 33253
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Teonan

> At one time in history, the majority of the US population favored racial discrimination.
> At one time in history, the majority supported laws that denied women the right to vote.
> At one time in history, the majority defended the institution of slavery.


at one time you sided with the british and lost
do you share with the british what you get from the USA?
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#1439452 --- 03/09/14 03:12 PM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: Teonan]
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 33253
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Teonan

> At one time in history, the majority of the US population favored racial discrimination.


is that not what the 'tribal' system is?
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#1439453 --- 03/09/14 03:16 PM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: Teonan]
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 33253
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Teonan
> At one time in history, the majority supported laws that denied women the right to vote.


is that why the highest crimes are those against women on the 'reservation'?
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#1439456 --- 03/09/14 03:21 PM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: Teonan]
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 33253
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Teonan
> At one time in history, the majority defended the institution of slavery.


is that why the 'tribes' had slaves?
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#1439457 --- 03/09/14 03:23 PM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: kyle585]
Teonan Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/30/12
Posts: 5389
Loc: Malmö
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Timbo and Teonan are very hard to figure out. Sometimes it sounds like they think we should give all of America back to the Indians. I am sure you don't want that? But they won't come out and say that. They refuse to be pinned down on what they want. So trying to debate with them is a real exercise in futility. That is what I meant.


Excuse me Kyle, but being in solidarity with Indigenous folks does not allow Timbo or I the arrogance of defining their deepest concerns or calling the shots. And if I may respectfully speak for Timbo by adding - nor would we.


Here is an excellent resource of information if you are truly interested in understanding what THEY want.

The International Indian Treaty Council (IITC) is an organization of Indigenous Peoples from North, Central, South America, the Caribbean and the Pacific working for the Sovereignty and Self Determination of Indigenous Peoples and the recognition and protection of Indigenous Rights, Treaties, Traditional Cultures and Sacred Lands.

The IITC was founded in 1974 at a gathering on the Standing Rock Reservation, Lakota Nation Territory (South Dakota, USA) attended by more than 5000 representatives of 98 Indigenous Nations. The symbol of the sacred pipe uniting the hemisphere was chosen for IITC by the elders to represent the common bonds of spirituality, ties to the land and respect for traditional culture and spirituality which is common to all Indigenous Peoples.

IITC serves as a voice and advocate for the human rights of Indigenous Peoples, communities and tribes locally, nationally and internationally. One of IITC’s guiding principles affirms that “Indigenous Peoples speak for themselves before the world community” as an integral aspect of self-determination. IITC builds and facilitates the direct participation of Indigenous Peoples in local, regional, national and international events and gatherings addressing their rights and survival, and through information dissemination, networking and coalition building, advocacy, training and technical assistance. IITC’s core programs include Defending Human Rights, Food Sovereignty, Environmental Health and Sustainability, and Treaty Rights.

In 1977, IITC was the first Indigenous organization to receive Consultative Status with the UN Economic and Social Council (ECOSOC). In July 2011, IITC became the first Indigenous organization to be upgraded to “General Consultative Status” by ECOSOC. This upgrade was made in recognition of IITC’s long-standing and wide-ranging participation in the United Nations system representing the concerns of Indigenous Peoples and working for the development and implementation of international standards and mechanisms recognizing the rights of Indigenous Peoples.

IITC website:
http://www.iitc.org/
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#1439458 --- 03/09/14 03:35 PM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: Timbo]
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 33253
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Timbo

FYI:
Native American per populace enlistment rate is almost the highest of all other races and is in fact the highest for female enlistees.


why did they volunteer?
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#1439472 --- 03/09/14 04:44 PM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: Teonan]
kyle585 Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 02/18/09
Posts: 19801
Loc: Somewhere out there
Originally Posted By: Teonan
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Timbo and Teonan are very hard to figure out. Sometimes it sounds like they think we should give all of America back to the Indians. I am sure you don't want that? But they won't come out and say that. They refuse to be pinned down on what they want. So trying to debate with them is a real exercise in futility. That is what I meant.
Excuse me Kyle, but being in solidarity with Indigenous folks does not allow Timbo or I the arrogance of defining their deepest concerns or calling the shots. And if I may respectfully speak for Timbo by adding - nor would we.

Here is an excellent resource of information if you are truly interested in understanding what THEY want.

The International Indian Treaty Council (IITC) is an organization of Indigenous Peoples from North, Central, South America, the Caribbean and the Pacific working for the Sovereignty and Self Determination of Indigenous Peoples and the recognition and protection of Indigenous Rights, Treaties, Traditional Cultures and Sacred Lands.

The IITC was founded in 1974 at a gathering on the Standing Rock Reservation, Lakota Nation Territory (South Dakota, USA) attended by more than 5000 representatives of 98 Indigenous Nations. The symbol of the sacred pipe uniting the hemisphere was chosen for IITC by the elders to represent the common bonds of spirituality, ties to the land and respect for traditional culture and spirituality which is common to all Indigenous Peoples.

IITC serves as a voice and advocate for the human rights of Indigenous Peoples, communities and tribes locally, nationally and internationally. One of IITC’s guiding principles affirms that “Indigenous Peoples speak for themselves before the world community” as an integral aspect of self-determination. IITC builds and facilitates the direct participation of Indigenous Peoples in local, regional, national and international events and gatherings addressing their rights and survival, and through information dissemination, networking and coalition building, advocacy, training and technical assistance. IITC’s core programs include Defending Human Rights, Food Sovereignty, Environmental Health and Sustainability, and Treaty Rights.

In 1977, IITC was the first Indigenous organization to receive Consultative Status with the UN Economic and Social Council (ECOSOC). In July 2011, IITC became the first Indigenous organization to be upgraded to “General Consultative Status” by ECOSOC. This upgrade was made in recognition of IITC’s long-standing and wide-ranging participation in the United Nations system representing the concerns of Indigenous Peoples and working for the development and implementation of international standards and mechanisms recognizing the rights of Indigenous Peoples.

IITC website:
http://www.iitc.org/
Thank you. This is the most intelligent post I have seen posted by you or Timbo yet. Are these groups making any progress in having their desires met? What makes me wonder is their desire for land. How do we give them land without taking it away from someone else? There is only a finite amount of land and they aren't making any more.
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#1439478 --- 03/09/14 05:02 PM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: bluezone]
kyle585 Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 02/18/09
Posts: 19801
Loc: Somewhere out there
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo

FYI:
Native American per populace enlistment rate is almost the highest of all other races and is in fact the highest for female enlistees.
Why did they volunteer?
This is what is so amazing bluezone. Timbo says they are being treated unfairly. He even use the word obscene. Why would you volunteer to serve in the military of a country that treats you that way? It does not add up at all.
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#1439483 --- 03/09/14 05:34 PM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: kyle585]
Timbo Offline
Silver Member

Registered: 07/18/12
Posts: 14706
Loc: CNY
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo

FYI:
Native American per populace enlistment rate is almost the highest of all other races and is in fact the highest for female enlistees.
Why did they volunteer?
This is what is so amazing bluezone. Timbo says they are being treated unfairly. He even use the word obscene. Why would you volunteer to serve in the military of a country that treats you that way? It does not add up at all.

I suggest you ask that question of a Native American Veteran (or better yet, several).
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#1439488 --- 03/09/14 05:48 PM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: Timbo]
kyle585 Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 02/18/09
Posts: 19801
Loc: Somewhere out there
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo

FYI:
Native American per populace enlistment rate is almost the highest of all other races and is in fact the highest for female enlistees.
Why did they volunteer?
This is what is so amazing bluezone. Timbo says they are being treated unfairly. He even use the word obscene. Why would you volunteer to serve in the military of a country that treats you that way? It does not add up at all.
I suggest you ask that question of a Native American Veteran (or better yet, several).
I don't know any but obviously they are being treated far better by the USA than what you say.

http://www.history.navy.mil/faqs/faq61-1.htm

The requirements for successful military service -- strength, bravery, pride, and wisdom - match those of the Indian warrior. Military service affords an outlet for combat that fulfills a culturally determined role for the warrior. Therefore, the military is an opportunity for cultural self-fulfillment. By sending young tribal members off to be warriors, they return with experiences that make them valued members of their society. Finally, the military provides educational opportunities, which allow Native American veterans to return to their community with productive job skills to improve their quality of life.

With the 21st century on the horizon, the United States military can be expected to provide continuing opportunity for Native American men and women. For their part, Native Americans can be expected to carry on their centuries-old warrior tradition- serving with pride, courage, and distinction.




Edited by kyle585 (03/09/14 05:51 PM)
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#1439507 --- 03/09/14 11:12 PM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: Timbo]
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 33253
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Timbo
I suggest you ask that question of a Native American Veteran (or better yet, several).


must be all that time you claim to volunteer is all false
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#1439508 --- 03/09/14 11:14 PM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: Teonan]
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 33253
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Teonan

Excuse me Kyle, but being in solidarity with Indigenous folks does not allow Timbo or I the arrogance of defining their deepest concerns or calling the shots. And if I may respectfully speak for Timbo by adding - nor would we.


excuse me, but why do you refuse to give your land back to the 'tribe'?

walk the walk...
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