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#1438944 --- 03/05/14 06:28 AM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: Timbo]
Rich_Tallcot Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/19/03
Posts: 5581
Loc: Greeneville, TN
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
Yes, they support themselves via non-tribal customers. But their land claim was dismissed because the feds did not join their lawsuit and the State declared sovereign immunity because the State is the sovereign, NOT the tribe. Their latest plea was to the UN, which does NOT trump the US Constitution.

As a signatory to the UN charter, any treaty laws recognized under UN law, are indeed equally as binding as the US Constitution. The same applies to ALL US treaties.

Hahahah, let me know how that works out for ya. You can give Syracuse to the Onondaga if you want, I don't care.

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#1438948 --- 03/05/14 07:28 AM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: Timbo]
Rich_Tallcot Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/19/03
Posts: 5581
Loc: Greeneville, TN
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
While tribal nations do not enjoy direct access to U.S. courts to bring cases against individual states,

Ah, how could I neglect the lead statement?

The FACT is because the states are sovereign and the tribes are NOT, but are federal WARDS.

Your arguments are based on false assumptions, or to be not politically correct otherwise known as lies.
Tribal sovereignty describes the right of federally recognized tribes to govern themselves and the existence of a government-to-government relationship with the United States. Thus a tribe is not a ward of the government, but an independent nation with the right to form its own government, adjudicate legal cases within its borders, levy taxes within its borders, establish its membership, and decide its own future fate. The federal government has a trust responsibility to protect tribal lands, assets, resources and treaty rights.

Remember your post which claimed tribal sovereignty was not disturbed in United States v. Nice? And my reply being: The ONLY statement that comes close to an alleged sovereignty mention is

"In addition to the fact that both acts-the general one of 1887 and the special one of 1889-disclose that the tribal relation and the WARDship of the Indians were not to be disturbed by the allotments and trust patents, we find that both Congress and the administrative officers of the government have proceeded upon that theory."

THAT is a quote from the Court it that case with the url link citation accompanying it.
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cgi-bin/getcase.pl?court=us&vol=241&invol=591

I know tribes are working diligently to erase any reference to them made by non-Indians which may be considered derogatory such as squaw and have lobbied to promo TAS, or Treatment As States, status because many do not like the term tribe and the BIA and other bureaucracies may comply with their lobbyist requests but you can't put spots on a lion and call it a leopard. It is what it is and I agree with the court that their WARDship was not disturbed. Actually the technical term for tribes is Federal Instrumentalities. That was revealed in the Nixon papers I got from the National Archives. Nixon's flip flop of FIP used the tribes for federal land grabs under the guise of giving what the tribes asked for and taking land into trust, which is federal. This reverts the status back to territorial where the US Constitution does not apply and tribes think they have more power but they really have less. Yes poor Timmy, tribal members are wards.

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#1438952 --- 03/05/14 07:39 AM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: Rich_Tallcot]
teedoff27 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/11/11
Posts: 2272
Loc: S2Hphoto
Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: teedoff27
The Onondaga's here in Syracuse have their own health center, health insurance, school, fire department, and *Peace Keepers* all funded by their enterprises (smoke shop, cig factory, fire keepers restaurant, and multi purpose ice/lacrosse center)


all funded by you
The Onondaga are good people and do their best to be self sufficient while refusing to accept government grants. I do not agree with their independent nation status position but respect them for practicing what they preach and admire them for maintaining their traditional government whereas most other Iroquois governments have been taken over. Comparing the Onondaga with other tribes is comparing apples and oranges. Maybe they should be the orange as they are near Syracuse.

Not every tribal member is compliant as many take advantage of NYS paying for their college education. Thank or blame NYS for that.

Yes, they support themselves via non-tribal customers. But their land claim was dismissed because the feds did not join their lawsuit and the State declared sovereign immunity because the State is the sovereign, NOT the tribe. Their latest plea was to the UN, which does NOT trump the US Constitution.

Except for the Mohawk land claim with a parcel of land in question whether Canada or the US owned it, ALL Iroquois land claims are dead.


Good post Rich. There IS a good relationship between the county and the Onondagas. My county property tax actually went DOWN this year.... Yet Kyle and Bluezone want to blame ALL the Natives (all 5,000 of them) for all of NYS's tax issues!
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#1438970 --- 03/05/14 12:04 PM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: Rich_Tallcot]
Timbo Offline
Silver Member

Registered: 07/18/12
Posts: 14705
Loc: CNY
Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
Yes, they support themselves via non-tribal customers. But their land claim was dismissed because the feds did not join their lawsuit and the State declared sovereign immunity because the State is the sovereign, NOT the tribe. Their latest plea was to the UN, which does NOT trump the US Constitution.

As a signatory to the UN charter, any treaty laws recognized under UN law, are indeed equally as binding as the US Constitution. The same applies to ALL US treaties.

Hahahah, let me know how that works out for ya. You can give Syracuse to the Onondaga if you want, I don't care.

We'll soon find out and I suspect the end result, won't be to your liking.

The fact that you don't care about that which doesn't effect you personally, is painfully obvious in this and every other anti-Indian position that you subscribe to.
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Everyone's entitled to their own opinions, but not their own facts.

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#1438974 --- 03/05/14 12:14 PM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: Rich_Tallcot]
Timbo Offline
Silver Member

Registered: 07/18/12
Posts: 14705
Loc: CNY
Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
You do not even live in New York State as evidenced by not even knowing what tribes we are dealing with. Yes, good synopsis of Treaties with the Seneca Tribe. However that excludes the State Treaties with the Cayuga and Oneida which were recognized as valid in the 1794 Treaty of Canandaigua, 1788 Treaty of Ft. Schuyler and 1789 Treaty of Albany. And don't exclude the 1927 International Tribunal (precursor to the UN) ruling on the State treaty with the Cayuga ordering Congress to pay them $100,000 as one of their six FINAL settlements. THERE's your UN ruling. Keep trying, this is getting humorous. You can't find everything on Google.

In regard to treaty law, when treaties appear to be in conflict with one another, Federal Treaties always supersede those of the State, rendering moot your silly suppositions of my place of residence and the imagined relevance of any superficial distinctions between Indians in terms of either state or regional municipality.
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Everyone's entitled to their own opinions, but not their own facts.

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#1438976 --- 03/05/14 12:31 PM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: Timbo]
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32982
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Timbo
The U.S. constitution specifically mentions American Indians three times. Article I, section 2, clause 3 and the fourteenth amendment section 2 address the handling of "Indians not taxed" in the apportionment of the seats of the House of Representatives according to population and in so doing suggest that Indians need not be taxed.


that dealt with not counting 'tribal' members for house of representatives/voting.
'tribal' members can now vote, are counted for elections and are US citizens meaning that you would support the 'tribal' members being taxed
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#1438977 --- 03/05/14 12:39 PM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: tubby]
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32982
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: tubby
The truth in Seneca county today is when I don't pay my property taxes the county takes my house in tax foreclosure, when my native American neighbor doesn't pay his property taxes nothing happens.


YOUR taxes go up to cover them not paying their share
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"OUR COUNTRY IS IN MOURNING, A SOLDIER DIED TODAY."

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#1438981 --- 03/05/14 01:02 PM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: bluezone]
teedoff27 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/11/11
Posts: 2272
Loc: S2Hphoto
If that were true WHY did Onondaga county property taxes go DOWN ?????
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Spiritual people INSPIRE me
Religious people FRIGHTEN me

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#1438982 --- 03/05/14 01:03 PM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: bluezone]
Timbo Offline
Silver Member

Registered: 07/18/12
Posts: 14705
Loc: CNY
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo
The U.S. constitution specifically mentions American Indians three times. Article I, section 2, clause 3 and the fourteenth amendment section 2 address the handling of "Indians not taxed" in the apportionment of the seats of the House of Representatives according to population and in so doing suggest that Indians need not be taxed.

that dealt with not counting 'tribal' members for house of representatives/voting.
'tribal' members can now vote, are counted for elections and are US citizens meaning that you would support the 'tribal' members being taxed

I'm fully aware of both the origins and the legal definition.

I simply assert that the entire system of 'tribal' boundary, as solely devised by the US government is patently illegal due to the crimes against humanity used to implement and enforce these repeatedly violated and broken treaties.

Theses are absolute and indisputable facts to all but the most uninformed or disingenuous.

As such, any laws implemented as a result of these actions are not only unenforceable but patently illegal or unconstitutional (take your pick).
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Everyone's entitled to their own opinions, but not their own facts.

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#1438983 --- 03/05/14 01:08 PM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: Timbo]
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32982
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Timbo
I simply assert that the entire system of 'tribal' boundary, as solely devised by the US government is patently illegal


there were not 'tribal' boundaries prior to the british being here?
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"OUR COUNTRY IS IN MOURNING, A SOLDIER DIED TODAY."

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#1438984 --- 03/05/14 01:09 PM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: bluezone]
Timbo Offline
Silver Member

Registered: 07/18/12
Posts: 14705
Loc: CNY

From the moment white man violated the spirit of the first agreement (treaty or otherwise).
_________________________
Everyone's entitled to their own opinions, but not their own facts.

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#1438985 --- 03/05/14 01:12 PM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: Timbo]
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32982
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Timbo

From the moment white man violated the spirit of the first agreement (treaty or otherwise).


so you are saying that there was just one large 'tribe' before the british came here?

what was the name of that 'tribe'?
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"OUR COUNTRY IS IN MOURNING, A SOLDIER DIED TODAY."

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#1439065 --- 03/06/14 12:14 AM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: Timbo]
Rich_Tallcot Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/19/03
Posts: 5581
Loc: Greeneville, TN
I know it is impossible for you to connect more than one dot together at a time, but if you click where it says “re: Timbo” at the top of the post, the post appears that is being replied to.

Your inability to grasp issues concerning Central New York make it obvious you are not from Central New York, whether you live here or not.

If you had an inkling of the facts you would know that the State treaties use rights were the basis for designating areas for the land claims. If they were moot or invalid which I argued with Feeherry and Caldabella about to agree with the Cayuga claiming they were invalid, there would not have even been any land claims because the only claim would have been aboriginal and such claims had already been ruled invalid by the courts.

That was when I sued to intervene and fire the attorneys appointed by the court. Remember that? Of course not, you do not live here.

I have never made an anti-Indian position and have defended many Indian positions who are members of UCE and CERA. I have many Indian friends and we know the difference between race and politics.

Your hatred prevents you from seeing that.

My concerns over issues that do not affect me personally have never stopped. I will be traveling throughout the country this year at my own expense doing just that. Your position supporting what could not happen is the joke you could not comprehend.

The only thing moot are your factoids.

Oh, humor us and explain which federal and state treaty was in conflict.

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#1439066 --- 03/06/14 12:24 AM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: Rich_Tallcot]
tubby Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/12/08
Posts: 1341
Loc: N.Y.
Nice post, you and Timbo are like night and day, you have real life experiences to base your facts on and Timbo lives behind a computer doing wiki and google searches.

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#1439099 --- 03/06/14 12:11 PM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: Timbo]
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32982
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Timbo



Quote:
In its legal arguments, the Seneca Nation "expressly acknowledges that, as a general principle, New York State has the authority to require reservation retailers to collect excise taxes on sales to non-Indians," Arcara wrote.
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"OUR COUNTRY IS IN MOURNING, A SOLDIER DIED TODAY."

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#1439118 --- 03/06/14 05:03 PM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: bluezone]
Timbo Offline
Silver Member

Registered: 07/18/12
Posts: 14705
Loc: CNY
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo

Quote:
In its legal arguments, the Seneca Nation "expressly acknowledges that, as a general principle, New York State has the authority to require reservation retailers to collect excise taxes on sales to non-Indians," Arcara wrote.


How convenient of you to leave out the primary point:

"U.S. District Judge Richard J. Arcara on Thursday extended indefinitely his ban on state taxation of cigarette sales by the Seneca Nation and other Indian tribes..."
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Everyone's entitled to their own opinions, but not their own facts.

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#1439178 --- 03/07/14 12:54 PM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: Timbo]
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32982
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Timbo
How convenient of you to leave out the primary point:


do you mean that 'tribal' members are US citizens and all laws and taxes need apply?

remember that is in the Constitution

yawn...
_________________________
"OUR COUNTRY IS IN MOURNING, A SOLDIER DIED TODAY."

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#1439179 --- 03/07/14 12:57 PM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: Timbo]
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32982
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Timbo
How convenient of you to leave out the primary point:


did you leave YOUR HOMELAND by force or did you leave on your own free will?
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"OUR COUNTRY IS IN MOURNING, A SOLDIER DIED TODAY."

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#1439234 --- 03/07/14 08:06 PM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: bluezone]
kyle585 Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 02/18/09
Posts: 19801
Loc: Somewhere out there
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo
How convenient of you to leave out the primary point:
did you leave YOUR HOMELAND by force or did you leave on your own free will?
Originally Posted By: Timbo
I served my country honorably for several years while in the Navy.
Are you as curious as I am as to what country and what Navy?
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#1439237 --- 03/07/14 08:27 PM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: kyle585]
Timbo Offline
Silver Member

Registered: 07/18/12
Posts: 14705
Loc: CNY
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo
How convenient of you to leave out the primary point:
did you leave YOUR HOMELAND by force or did you leave on your own free will?
Originally Posted By: Timbo
I served my country honorably for several years while in the Navy.
Are you as curious as I am as to what country and what Navy?

The same one from which you freely and with no self-sacrifice of your own, suck your liberties and freedom from those who personally forfeited years of their lives to ensure that you could have a free ride and be guaranteed the right to talk smack to those whom you suggest are traitors to their country.

Got it now, little fella?

Are you as curious as I am to know whether or not you'd have the courage to actually say that straight to a veteran's face?
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