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#1437826 --- 02/24/14 06:12 PM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: Timbo]
kyle585 Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 02/18/09
Posts: 19801
Loc: Somewhere out there
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Teonan
Let's cut to the chase...
In December 2010 President Obama declared that the United States would sign the U.N. Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples.

After years of foot dragging the United States became the last major country to sign the declaration.

U.N. Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples in it's entirety here:
http://www.un.org/esa/socdev/unpfii/documents/DRIPS_en.pdf
Plese tell me what you think the US needs to do for the Indigenous people within our boundaries.
In terms of this thread, I would say that removing the obligation to pay taxes (state or federal) in most cases is appropriate. There may be some possible exceptions, but none presently come to mind.
How about county sales taxes on their businesses?(This is just a pass through tax which you collect from your customer at point of sale). How about local county and town property taxes and local school taxes?


Edited by kyle585 (02/24/14 06:41 PM)
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#1437834 --- 02/24/14 08:29 PM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: kyle585]
Timbo Offline
Silver Member

Registered: 07/18/12
Posts: 14394
Loc: CNY
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Teonan
Let's cut to the chase...
In December 2010 President Obama declared that the United States would sign the U.N. Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples.

After years of foot dragging the United States became the last major country to sign the declaration.

U.N. Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples in it's entirety here:
http://www.un.org/esa/socdev/unpfii/documents/DRIPS_en.pdf
Plese tell me what you think the US needs to do for the Indigenous people within our boundaries.
In terms of this thread, I would say that removing the obligation to pay taxes (state or federal) in most cases is appropriate. There may be some possible exceptions, but none presently come to mind.
How about county sales taxes on their businesses?(This is just a pass through tax which you collect from your customer at point of sale). How about local county and town property taxes and local school taxes?

No, not if they are wholly Indian owned.

I would however consider taxes or fees for certain acts upon the environment that are the result of Indian actions which could cause possible harm or damage outside of Indian/tribal land to be a potentially reasonable requirement (and vice versa).

And I stress the word "potentially".
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#1437839 --- 02/24/14 09:11 PM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: Timbo]
kyle585 Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 02/18/09
Posts: 19801
Loc: Somewhere out there
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: kyle585
]Inn terms of this thread, I would say that removing the obligation to pay taxes (state or federal) in most cases is appropriate. There may be some possible exceptions, but none presently come to mind.
How about county sales taxes on their businesses?(This is just a pass through tax which you collect from your customer at point of sale). How about local county and town property taxes and local school taxes?
Originally Posted By: Timbo

No, not if they are wholly Indian owned.

I would however consider taxes or fees for certain acts upon the environment that are the result of Indian actions which could cause possible harm or damage outside of Indian/tribal land to be a potentially reasonable requirement (and vice versa).

And I stress the word "potentially".
As an example: an Indian buys a large prosperous crop and dairy farm anywhere in New York state for a million dollars with a beautiful home on it and 100 acres of land. It has been owned by non-Indians for 200 years who are currently paying $10,000 annually in local property and school taxes on it. Do the new Indian owners have to continue to pay these local taxes?
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#1437840 --- 02/24/14 09:20 PM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: kyle585]
Timbo Offline
Silver Member

Registered: 07/18/12
Posts: 14394
Loc: CNY

I believe that I've already answered that question.
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#1437846 --- 02/24/14 09:50 PM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: kyle585]
Timbo Offline
Silver Member

Registered: 07/18/12
Posts: 14394
Loc: CNY
Originally Posted By: kyle585
If you can tell me these two things, you may yet convince me you have something worthwhile to contribute to this discussion. I am serious.

It matters not one iota what you think of me.

Your obvious arrogance and sense of self importance is truly a thing to behold. The fact that you are serious, makes it even more astounding.

You're always welcome to take your questions to someone with far less patience for intransigence, than I.
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#1437853 --- 02/25/14 04:05 AM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: Timbo]
kyle585 Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 02/18/09
Posts: 19801
Loc: Somewhere out there
Originally Posted By: Timbo
I believe that I've already answered that question.
Originally Posted By: Timbo
In terms of this thread, I would say that removing the obligation to pay taxes (state or federal) in most cases is appropriate. There may be some possible exceptions, but none presently come to mind.
You said state and federal taxes. I was asking about local taxes. Obviously you do not think they should pay any taxes that they are not now paying which I find totally unacceptable.
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#1437854 --- 02/25/14 04:12 AM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: Timbo]
kyle585 Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 02/18/09
Posts: 19801
Loc: Somewhere out there
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: kyle585
If you can tell me these two things, you may yet convince me you have something worthwhile to contribute to this discussion. I am serious.
It matters not one iota what you think of me.

Your obvious arrogance and sense of self importance is truly a thing to behold. The fact that you are serious, makes it even more astounding.

You're always welcome to take your questions to someone with far less patience for intransigence, than I.
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Atrocities have happened far more recently and other examples of such treatment still exist today.

All the more reason why Native American's are entitled to certain restitutions.

Most people who are on here discussing a serious topic are trying to convince other people that their position is correct. I now doubt if that is what you are doing? You are the most arrogant and aloof person I have ever met on here. I am not sure why you are on here? I think you must just like to display your big vocabulary because it just makes you feel important. I see no other reason for all of your drivel on here.

You make bold statements that atrocities are still being committed against Indians today. And therefore they are entitled to certain restitutions! These are indeed bold statements yet you offer no proof of them. You are indeed quite an amazing guy. What I really think of your stand on the Indian situation is not printable on here.
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#1437867 --- 02/25/14 08:07 AM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: kyle585]
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32557
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Teonan
Let's cut to the chase...
In December 2010 President Obama declared that the United States would sign the .N. Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples.
Endorsed by 145 countries in 2007, the U.S. initially voted against it for obvious reasons; parts of provisions state that indigenous peoples "have the right to the lands, territories and resources which they have traditionally owned, occupied, or otherwise used and acquired."


so do the british get half of what you want?

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#1437869 --- 02/25/14 08:23 AM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: bluezone]
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32557
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Teonan
Let's cut to the chase...
In December 2010 President Obama declared that the United States would sign the .N. Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples.
Endorsed by 145 countries in 2007, the U.S. initially voted against it for obvious reasons; parts of provisions state that indigenous peoples "have the right to the lands, territories and resources which they have traditionally owned, occupied, or otherwise used and acquired."


you and timbo need to get your story straight


Originally Posted By: Timbo

Because that is virtually the invariable outcome of being conquered.
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#1437870 --- 02/25/14 08:29 AM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: twocats]
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32557
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: twocats
Kyle, imagine if 2 foreign countries came here, had a war and the winner claimed the land as theirs. 30 years later, wouldn't you feel as though your land was still your land?


where is your homeland?
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#1437871 --- 02/25/14 08:35 AM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: kyle585]
Timbo Offline
Silver Member

Registered: 07/18/12
Posts: 14394
Loc: CNY
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Timbo
I believe that I've already answered that question.
Originally Posted By: Timbo
In terms of this thread, I would say that removing the obligation to pay taxes (state or federal) in most cases is appropriate. There may be some possible exceptions, but none presently come to mind.
You said state and federal taxes. I was asking about local taxes. Obviously you do not think they should pay any taxes that they are not now paying which I find totally unacceptable.

Then it would be safe to say that our opinions conflict, wouldn't it?

However, you're still making some inaccurate assumptions regarding my "thoughts" on the issue.
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#1437875 --- 02/25/14 08:46 AM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: kyle585]
Teonan Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/30/12
Posts: 4989
Loc: Malmö
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Teonan
Let's cut to the chase...
In December 2010 President Obama declared that the United States would sign the U.N. Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples.

Endorsed by 145 countries in 2007, the U.S. initially voted against it for obvious reasons; parts of provisions state that indigenous peoples "have the right to the lands, territories and resources which they have traditionally owned, occupied, or otherwise used and acquired."

After years of foot dragging the United States became the last major country to sign the declaration.
In the words of activist/attorney Kevin Zeese:

"In the past few years, there has been a reawakening and tremendous growth of the First Nations and Native Indian rights movements. They have become a guidepost for many non-Native environmental justice activists who look to them for leadership and guidance. The effort continues for recognition that indigenous peoples share the universal rights that all humans share. The historic prejudice and destruction of their culture and land will begin to be corrected only when their sovereignty is respected. These are aspirations that remain unfulfilled, but the struggle to achieve them continues."
I could not agree more.
U.N. Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples in it's entirety here:
http://www.un.org/esa/socdev/unpfii/documents/DRIPS_en.pdf
Plese tell me what you think the US needs to do for the Indigenous people within our boundaries.



In my opinion the U.S should make immediately respond to their grievances in full accordance with international law.

As urged by Dr. Mary Hamer, M.D:

- I recommend that the United States offer a Truth & Reconciliation Commission to the Native Americans – To give the Native people a chance to express their First Amendment rights of Freedom of Speech & to air their grievances – In the effort to help the Native Americans & Americans in general to heal from 500+ years of injustices.

Acknowledging the voices from America's "prison house of nations" would be a remarkable beginning.

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-John Trudell


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#1437877 --- 02/25/14 08:56 AM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: Teonan]
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32557
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Teonan
- I recommend that the United States offer a Truth & Reconciliation Commission to the Native Americans


Originally Posted By: Timbo
CONQUERED


Originally Posted By: Teonan

– To give the Native people a chance to express their First Amendment rights of Freedom of Speech & to air their grievances


'First Amendment rights'

how is that US citizenship working for ya?

we do not see you complaining about your free obamacare...
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"OUR COUNTRY IS IN MOURNING, A SOLDIER DIED TODAY."

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#1437879 --- 02/25/14 09:04 AM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: Timbo]
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32557
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Atrocities have happened far more recently and other examples of such treatment still exist today.


where are your examples?
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"OUR COUNTRY IS IN MOURNING, A SOLDIER DIED TODAY."

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#1437886 --- 02/25/14 09:43 AM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: bluezone]
Timbo Offline
Silver Member

Registered: 07/18/12
Posts: 14394
Loc: CNY
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Atrocities have happened far more recently and other examples of such treatment still exist today.

where are your examples?

I posted this earlier, but apparently I accidentally deleted it.

Bon Appétit!
http://www.countercurrents.org/hamer081209.htm
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#1437909 --- 02/25/14 01:57 PM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: Timbo]
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32557
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Atrocities have happened far more recently and other examples of such treatment still exist today.

where are your examples?

I posted this earlier, but apparently I accidentally deleted it.

Bon Appétit!
http://www.countercurrents.org/hamer081209.htm


what examples exist today?
_________________________
"OUR COUNTRY IS IN MOURNING, A SOLDIER DIED TODAY."

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#1437914 --- 02/25/14 02:18 PM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: Teonan]
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32557
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Teonan
Acknowledging


Originally Posted By: Teonan
Originally Posted By: VM Smith
Quote:
many have wondered whether Americans would ever resist the increasing encroachments on their freedom. I think they've begun.


That may be true. Under the Bushes, the Clintons, and particularly under Obama, the State has revealed its nature, and maybe there can be an effective pushback.


So you advocate:

Eliminating public education so only the rich can afford private schools.

Eliminating safety regulation and basic worker rights so people can be paid less in times of high unemployment.

Cutting their social safety net, so their kids starve.

Eliminating our civil rights to allow for open discrimination again.

Deregulating all corporations to remove environmental protections and allow predatory and exploitve practices.

Stop maintaining our infrastructure and let it crumble/sell it to private corporations, so that all roads will be toll.



are you talking about on the 'reservation' or off the 'reservation'?

one minute you support the US government and then the next minute you complain about it
_________________________
"OUR COUNTRY IS IN MOURNING, A SOLDIER DIED TODAY."

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#1437929 --- 02/25/14 04:07 PM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: bluezone]
Teonan Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/30/12
Posts: 4989
Loc: Malmö
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Teonan
Acknowledging


Originally Posted By: Teonan
Originally Posted By: VM Smith
Quote:
many have wondered whether Americans would ever resist the increasing encroachments on their freedom. I think they've begun.


That may be true. Under the Bushes, the Clintons, and particularly under Obama, the State has revealed its nature, and maybe there can be an effective pushback.


So you advocate:

Eliminating public education so only the rich can afford private schools.

Eliminating safety regulation and basic worker rights so people can be paid less in times of high unemployment.

Cutting their social safety net, so their kids starve.

Eliminating our civil rights to allow for open discrimination again.

Deregulating all corporations to remove environmental protections and allow predatory and exploitve practices.

Stop maintaining our infrastructure and let it crumble/sell it to private corporations, so that all roads will be toll.


one minute you support the US government and then the next minute you complain about it


Afraid of democracy in action?
_________________________
"Everything that has ever happened to us is there to make us stronger."
-John Trudell


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#1437948 --- 02/25/14 07:26 PM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: bluezone]
Rich_Tallcot Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/19/03
Posts: 5568
Loc: Greeneville, TN
Originally Posted By: bluezone
what examples exist today?
Timbo posted that link of opinions in the Tribal News thread to which I posted the REAL US apology and his standard accusations of questions not being answered is exactly what he does after refusing to make ANY stated fact regarding atrocities of today. Don't hold your breath waiting for an answer. Timbo will reply but not answer.

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#1437955 --- 02/25/14 08:23 PM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: Rich_Tallcot]
kyle585 Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 02/18/09
Posts: 19801
Loc: Somewhere out there
Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
his standard accusations of questions not being answered is exactly what he does after refusing to make ANY stated fact regarding atrocities of today. Don't hold your breath waiting for an answer. Timbo will reply but not answer.
What a ....Grrrr. mad Well, I can't say on here.
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