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#1437622 --- 02/23/14 12:36 AM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: kyle585]
Timbo Offline
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Registered: 07/18/12
Posts: 14391
Loc: CNY
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Timbo
When you say that they "get away" with things, you must mean that they got away within an inch of racial extinction, a few leftover rag-tag tribes and less than 1% of their former land?
When I say "get away" with things, I mean they are getting away with things now, not 200 years ago. No one can change what happened 200 years ago, can they? So I ask you what should we do for the few rag-tag tribes that are left? I asked if we owe them the other 99% of their land back but you treat that as some kind of ludicrous statement. Yet I hear no answer from you whatsoever.

Bullspit! You never asked me if we owe them the other other 99% of their land back and it IS a ludicrous supposition, because to the best of my knowledge, they've never demanded it back (as much as they certainly are entitled to it) no how many times you inaccurately suggest that they have.

And I've already answered that question, as I have previously reminded you. I even told you where you find my answer. YIKES! The fact that you are either unwilling or incapable of confirming it, lies squarely on YOUR shoulders, slick.

If we were to apply your "solutions" to the so-called "problem", we would be committing similar acts upon the Indians as were committed upon them 200+ years ago and is still in action today. The fact that you fail to recognize that, is irrelevant.
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#1437632 --- 02/23/14 06:35 AM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: Timbo]
kyle585 Offline
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Registered: 02/18/09
Posts: 19801
Loc: Somewhere out there
Originally Posted By: Timbo
If we were to apply your "solutions" to the so-called "problem", we would be committing similar acts upon the Indians as were committed upon them 200+ years ago and is still in action today. The fact that you fail to recognize that, is irrelevant.
By making them pay the same taxes as the rest of us? LOL You are so full of baloney it is unbelievable. Now go bang your head on the desk again. Maybe you will knock some sense into it.
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#1437633 --- 02/23/14 06:42 AM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: Timbo]
kyle585 Offline
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Registered: 02/18/09
Posts: 19801
Loc: Somewhere out there
Originally Posted By: Timbo
And I've already answered that question, as I have previously reminded you. I even told you where you find my answer. YIKES! The fact that you are either unwilling or incapable of confirming it, lies squarely on YOUR shoulders, slick.
No more chasing my tail for you. I am done.
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#1437634 --- 02/23/14 06:44 AM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: Timbo]
kyle585 Offline
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Registered: 02/18/09
Posts: 19801
Loc: Somewhere out there
Originally Posted By: Timbo
You never asked me if we owe them the other other 99% of their land back and it IS a ludicrous supposition, because to the best of my knowledge, they've never demanded it back (as much as they certainly are entitled to it) no how many times you inaccurately suggest that they have.
Good bye. I now am going to bang my head on the desk.
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#1437670 --- 02/23/14 12:09 PM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: kyle585]
twocats Offline
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Registered: 02/09/10
Posts: 11904
Loc: NYS
Kyle, imagine if 2 foreign countries came here, had a war and the winner claimed the land as theirs. 30 years later, wouldn't you feel as though your land was still your land?
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#1437685 --- 02/23/14 06:23 PM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: twocats]
kyle585 Offline
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Registered: 02/18/09
Posts: 19801
Loc: Somewhere out there
Originally Posted By: twocats
Kyle, imagine if 2 foreign countries came here, had a war and the winner claimed the land as theirs. 30 years later, wouldn't you feel as though your land was still your land?
But this is 200+ years later and most of the descendants are gone now. Many of us have ancestors that came here after being forced off their land in European countries and there is no chance we could go back and claim that land. I was quite surprised that Timbo described the Indians that are now left as "a few leftover rag-tag tribes".
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#1437688 --- 02/23/14 06:37 PM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: kyle585]
kyle585 Offline
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Registered: 02/18/09
Posts: 19801
Loc: Somewhere out there
http://www.city-journal.org/html/12_4_give_it_back.html

When you read about the boomlet in lawsuits demanding reparations for slavery, it’s natural to wonder: whatever happened to the statute of limitations? As the press has announced with some fanfare, many civil rights activists would like courts to hold modern-day businesses liable for transactions that 1) took place nearly 150 years ago; 2) were accepted as legal at the time; and 3) were then left undisturbed by the comprehensive political settlement that followed the Civil War. But if legal claims like these aren’t obsolete, what claims ever are? In fact, if we pursued the logic of reparations in any thoroughgoing way, the ownership of much of the nation’s real estate would be in doubt: most housing stock in cities like Atlanta, Charlotte, and Memphis, for example, sits on land that slaves once worked and that their descendants might wish to reclaim. Even if this property weren’t ultimately confiscated as reparations, to subject its ownership to years of legal uncertainty would gravely burden innocent purchasers and inheritors, who’ve long acted under the assumption of unchallenged title. Our courts would never make themselves the instruments of such injustice and social divisiveness—would they?

Don’t be so sure. Until recently, it’s true, all civilized legal systems seemed to agree on the principle embodied in the statute of limitations: that the civil law must view grievances not pressed in a prompt way as laid to rest. But over the last 25 years or so, lawyers have enjoyed unprecedented success in persuading American courts to relax time limits on the right to sue, with occasionally dramatic results. Just ask the residents of western New York towns like Chittenango, Seneca Falls, and Springport, where as many as 90,000 upstate landowners, joining many others in Connecticut and other states, have seen the titles to their properties clouded by the revival of Indian land claims once thought extinguished in the earliest years of the republic. Yet though these landowners have compelling stories to tell—they include, for example, farmers unable to clear title to land that has been in their family for two centuries—few of our elite legal institutions seem much interested in their plight. The Indian land-claims debacle offers a sobering preview of the havoc that slave-reparations claims might soon visit on American society as a whole.

The idea of going back nearly two centuries later and declaring all these sales invalid was almost unthinkably audacious. All the relevant federal agencies, including the Department of Justice and the Bureau of Indian Affairs, recognized them as ratified by custom and practice. Nothing suggested that the tribes had been under duress at the time, had been anything other than eager to sell the land, or had received less than due value for it. And the tracts in question were vast. In Maine, they encompassed two-thirds of the state, on which 350,000 people now live, and in New York, large swaths of the western part of the state, from the Finger Lakes to the shores of Lake Erie.


Edited by kyle585 (02/23/14 07:33 PM)
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#1437692 --- 02/23/14 07:22 PM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: kyle585]
kyle585 Offline
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Registered: 02/18/09
Posts: 19801
Loc: Somewhere out there
I do not believe it is possible to correct every injustice that was done to people of an area hundreds of years ago without doing great injustice to the current inhabitants of that area. I see that as the bottom line.
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#1437694 --- 02/23/14 08:22 PM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: kyle585]
twocats Offline
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Registered: 02/09/10
Posts: 11904
Loc: NYS
There is no statute of limitations for murder.
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#1437714 --- 02/24/14 04:07 AM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: twocats]
kyle585 Offline
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Registered: 02/18/09
Posts: 19801
Loc: Somewhere out there
Originally Posted By: twocats
There is no statute of limitations for murder.
Killing during war is not considered murder unless it is killing of unarmed civilians. If unarmed civilians are murdered the murderer should be brought to justice. If the murderer himself has been dead for hundreds of years, what do you propose we do about it in the year 2014?

American soldiers murdered unarmed civilians in Vietnam, Iraq, and Afghanistan. They were arrested and tried for their crimes. But the murderers were still alive. What do you do to a murderer who has been dead himself for hundreds of years whether he was a soldier or not?
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#1437716 --- 02/24/14 05:37 AM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: kyle585]
kyle585 Offline
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Registered: 02/18/09
Posts: 19801
Loc: Somewhere out there
Originally Posted By: kyle585
http://www.city-journal.org/html/12_4_give_it_back.html

most housing stock in cities like Atlanta, Charlotte, and Memphis, for example, sits on land that slaves once worked and that their descendants might wish to reclaim.

Could Michele Obama and other descendants of black slaves go back and claim this land? Could Indians then claim it from the blacks saying we were here before them? Carried to its logical conclusion this could eliminate the United States of America.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-obama-slavery-01-dec01,0,485324.story

GEORGETOWN, S.C.—Tiny wooden cabins line the dirt road once known as Slave Street as it winds its way through Friendfield Plantation.

More than 200 slaves lived in the whitewashed shacks in the early 1800s, and some of their descendants remained here for more than a century after the Civil War. The last tenants abandoned the hovels about three decades ago, and even they would have struggled to imagine a distant daughter of the plantation one day calling the White House home.

But a historical line can be drawn from these Low Country cabins to Michelle Obama, charting an American family's improbable journey through slavery, segregation, the civil rights movement and a historic presidential election.

Their documented passage begins with Jim Robinson, Obama's great-great-grandfather, who was born around 1850 and lived as a slave, at least until the Civil War, on the sprawling rice plantation. Records show he remained on the estate after the war, working as a sharecropper and living in the old slave quarters with his wife, Louiser, and their children.
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#1437721 --- 02/24/14 07:40 AM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: kyle585]
Timbo Offline
Silver Member

Registered: 07/18/12
Posts: 14391
Loc: CNY
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: twocats
Kyle, imagine if 2 foreign countries came here, had a war and the winner claimed the land as theirs. 30 years later, wouldn't you feel as though your land was still your land?
But this is 200+ years later and most of the descendants are gone now. Many of us have ancestors that came here after being forced off their land in European countries and there is no chance we could go back and claim that land. I was quite surprised that Timbo described the Indians that are now left as "a few leftover rag-tag tribes".

No, I described the tribes that way. And when compared to their state of existence prior white man's arrival, it's a wholly accurate description.

Why do you constantly insist upon twisting the meaning of the words of those who correct you on the subjects that you are apparently confused about?
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#1437722 --- 02/24/14 07:44 AM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: kyle585]
Timbo Offline
Silver Member

Registered: 07/18/12
Posts: 14391
Loc: CNY
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: twocats
Kyle, imagine if 2 foreign countries came here, had a war and the winner claimed the land as theirs. 30 years later, wouldn't you feel as though your land was still your land?
But this is 200+ years later and most of the descendants are gone now. Many of us have ancestors that came here after being forced off their land in European countries and there is no chance we could go back and claim that land. I was quite surprised that Timbo described the Indians that are now left as "a few leftover rag-tag tribes".

You couldn't be more wrong. Atrocities have happened far more recently and other examples of such treatment still exist today.

All the more reason why Native American's are entitled to certain restitutions.

You need to greatly expand your grasp of history.
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#1437724 --- 02/24/14 07:52 AM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: kyle585]
Timbo Offline
Silver Member

Registered: 07/18/12
Posts: 14391
Loc: CNY
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: twocats
There is no statute of limitations for murder.
Killing during war is not considered murder unless it is killing of unarmed civilians. If unarmed civilians are murdered the murderer should be brought to justice. If the murderer himself has been dead for hundreds of years, what do you propose we do about it in the year 2014?

American soldiers murdered unarmed civilians in Vietnam, Iraq, and Afghanistan. They were arrested and tried for their crimes. But the murderers were still alive. What do you do to a murderer who has been dead himself for hundreds of years whether he was a soldier or not?

Oh, let's say we start with what we did in the Philippines and Cuba (for example).

Did you happen to take notice of the fact that we withdrew from Vietnam and Iraq and are (slowly) doing the same in Afghanistan?????? crazy

I've already answered that question.
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#1437812 --- 02/24/14 03:09 PM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: Timbo]
Teonan Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/30/12
Posts: 4966
Loc: Malmö
Let's cut to the chase...

In December 2010 President Obama declared that the United States would sign the U.N. Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples.

Endorsed by 145 countries in 2007, the U.S. initially voted against it for obvious reasons; parts of provisions state that indigenous peoples "have the right to the lands, territories and resources which they have traditionally owned, occupied, or otherwise used and acquired."

After years of foot dragging the United States became the last major country to sign the declaration.


In the words of activist/attorney Kevin Zeese:

"In the past few years, there has been a reawakening and tremendous growth of the First Nations and Native Indian rights movements. They have become a guidepost for many non-Native environmental justice activists who look to them for leadership and guidance. The effort continues for recognition that indigenous peoples share the universal rights that all humans share. The historic prejudice and destruction of their culture and land will begin to be corrected only when their sovereignty is respected. These are aspirations that remain unfulfilled, but the struggle to achieve them continues."

I could not agree more.


U.N. Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples in it's entirety here:
http://www.un.org/esa/socdev/unpfii/documents/DRIPS_en.pdf

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#1437813 --- 02/24/14 03:33 PM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: Timbo]
kyle585 Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 02/18/09
Posts: 19801
Loc: Somewhere out there
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: twocats
Kyle, imagine if 2 foreign countries came here, had a war and the winner claimed the land as theirs. 30 years later, wouldn't you feel as though your land was still your land?
But this is 200+ years later and most of the descendants are gone now. Many of us have ancestors that came here after being forced off their land in European countries and there is no chance we could go back and claim that land. I was quite surprised that Timbo described the Indians that are now left as "a few leftover rag-tag tribes".
You couldn't be more wrong. Atrocities have happened far more recently and other examples of such treatment still exist today.

All the more reason why Native American's are entitled to certain restitutions.
Please tell me what what atrocities have been brought upon Native Americans recently and other examples that still exist today.

And tell me what "certain restitutions" you think they are are intitled to.

If you can tell me these two things, you may yet convince me you have something worthwhile to contribute to this discussion. I am serious.


Edited by kyle585 (02/24/14 04:30 PM)
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#1437814 --- 02/24/14 03:36 PM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: Teonan]
kyle585 Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 02/18/09
Posts: 19801
Loc: Somewhere out there
Originally Posted By: Teonan
Let's cut to the chase...
In December 2010 President Obama declared that the United States would sign the U.N. Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples.

Endorsed by 145 countries in 2007, the U.S. initially voted against it for obvious reasons; parts of provisions state that indigenous peoples "have the right to the lands, territories and resources which they have traditionally owned, occupied, or otherwise used and acquired."

After years of foot dragging the United States became the last major country to sign the declaration.
In the words of activist/attorney Kevin Zeese:

"In the past few years, there has been a reawakening and tremendous growth of the First Nations and Native Indian rights movements. They have become a guidepost for many non-Native environmental justice activists who look to them for leadership and guidance. The effort continues for recognition that indigenous peoples share the universal rights that all humans share. The historic prejudice and destruction of their culture and land will begin to be corrected only when their sovereignty is respected. These are aspirations that remain unfulfilled, but the struggle to achieve them continues."

I could not agree more.
U.N. Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples in it's entirety here:
http://www.un.org/esa/socdev/unpfii/documents/DRIPS_en.pdf
Plese tell me what you think the US needs to do for the Indigenous people within our boundaries.
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#1437816 --- 02/24/14 03:44 PM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: Teonan]
kyle585 Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 02/18/09
Posts: 19801
Loc: Somewhere out there
Originally Posted By: Teonan
Let's cut to the chase...

In December 2010 President Obama declared that the United States would sign the U.N. Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples.

Endorsed by 145 countries in 2007, the U.S. initially voted against it for obvious reasons; parts of provisions state that indigenous peoples "have the right to the lands, territories and resources which they have traditionally owned, occupied, or otherwise used and acquired."
Indigenous people once owned and occupied all of North and South America, did they not?
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#1437817 --- 02/24/14 03:48 PM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: bluezone]
kyle585 Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 02/18/09
Posts: 19801
Loc: Somewhere out there
http://www.culturalsurvival.org/node/10275

Who are Indigenous Peoples?

Called Tribal Peoples, First Peoples, Native Peoples, Indigenous Peoples constitute about 5% of the world’s population, yet account for about 15% of the world’s poor.

There are approximately 370 million Indigenous people in the world, belonging to 5,000 different groups, in 90 countries worldwide. Indigenous people live in every region of the world, but about 70% of them live in Asia.

There is no universally accepted definition for “Indigenous,”
though there are characteristics that tend to be common among Indigenous Peoples:

They tend to have small populations relative to the dominant culture of their country. However, in Bolivia and Guatemala Indigenous people make up more than half the population.
They usually have (or had) their own language. Today, Indigenous people speak some 4,000 languages.
They have distinctive cultural traditions that are still practiced.
They have (or had) their own land and territory, to which they are tied in myriad ways.
They self-identify as Indigenous.
Examples of Indigenous Peoples include the Inuit of the Arctic, Native Americans, hunter-gatherers in the Amazon, traditional pastoralists like the Maasai in East Africa, and tribal peoples in the Philippines.
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#1437820 --- 02/24/14 05:26 PM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: kyle585]
Timbo Offline
Silver Member

Registered: 07/18/12
Posts: 14391
Loc: CNY
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Teonan
Let's cut to the chase...
In December 2010 President Obama declared that the United States would sign the U.N. Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples.

Endorsed by 145 countries in 2007, the U.S. initially voted against it for obvious reasons; parts of provisions state that indigenous peoples "have the right to the lands, territories and resources which they have traditionally owned, occupied, or otherwise used and acquired."

After years of foot dragging the United States became the last major country to sign the declaration.
In the words of activist/attorney Kevin Zeese:

"In the past few years, there has been a reawakening and tremendous growth of the First Nations and Native Indian rights movements. They have become a guidepost for many non-Native environmental justice activists who look to them for leadership and guidance. The effort continues for recognition that indigenous peoples share the universal rights that all humans share. The historic prejudice and destruction of their culture and land will begin to be corrected only when their sovereignty is respected. These are aspirations that remain unfulfilled, but the struggle to achieve them continues."

I could not agree more.
U.N. Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples in it's entirety here:
http://www.un.org/esa/socdev/unpfii/documents/DRIPS_en.pdf
Plese tell me what you think the US needs to do for the Indigenous people within our boundaries.

In terms of this thread, I would say that removing the obligation to pay taxes (state or federal) in most cases is appropriate. There may be some possible exceptions, but none presently come to mind.
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