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#1380663 --- 01/03/13 02:05 PM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: Timbo]
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32557
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Besides, I'd say a number in at least the billions,


Quote:
John Stossel: Freeloading doesn't help the freeloader Indians
Wednesday, March 30, 2011


"No group has been more "helped" by the American government than American Indians. Yet no group in America does worse.

Almost a quarter of Native Americans live in poverty. 66 percent are born to single mothers. They have short life spans. Indian activists say the solution is -surprise- more money from the government. But Washington already spends about $13 billion on programs for Indians every year.

There are special programs in 20 different Departments and Agencies: Empowering Tribal Nations Initiative, Advancing Nation to Nation Relationships, Protecting Indian Country, Improving Trust Land Management, New Energy Frontier Initiative, Climate Change Adaptation Initiative, Construction, Improving Trust Management, Tribal Priority Allocations, Resolving Land and Water Claims, Indian Land Consolidation Program. This is just a partial list.

I say government already does too much. Indians would be better off without government handouts. I have evidence: tribes not recognized by the federal government, tribes that get no special help, often do better


Timbo show us the treaties that state these are to be provided?

just the FACTS...

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#1380664 --- 01/03/13 02:08 PM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: Teonan]
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32557
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Teonan


Hardly. Simply sharing ancient wisdom with feet on terra firma.


your 'wisdom' is more of your own confusion

keep running in circles...

send another letter the queen
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#1380668 --- 01/03/13 02:10 PM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: Timbo]
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32557
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: bluezone

you play both sides of the fence?


Would you mind explaining the underlying logic of that statement?


is it unclear to you?
ask teonan
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#1380669 --- 01/03/13 02:13 PM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: bluezone]
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32557
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Timbo

I neither agree nor disagree with what I can neither confirm nor deny.


Quote:
Court sides with Sherrill
Supreme Court justices rule 8-1
Oneida Nation must pay tax to city
Wed, Mar 30, 2005
R. PATRICK CORBETT Observer-Dispatch

The Oneida Indian Nation must pay taxes on its property in the city of Sherrill and potentially on all land it has bought outside of its 32-acre reservation in Madison County, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled Tuesday . In an 8-1 decision, the court ruled that the New York Oneidas cannot disrupt two centuries of local development by refusing to pay local taxes on a gas station and T-shirt factory it owns in Sherrill in Oneida County. New York City lawyer Ira Sacks, who pleaded Sherrill's case pro bono, said, "We were very pleased. The Supreme Court agreed with the principal argument that after 200 years ... the Oneida Indian Nation can't pick and choose places to buy and take it out of local jurisdiction." The justices also remarked on the "distinctly non-Indian character of the area and its inhabitants," because most Oneida Indians moved out of the area about 150 years ago.



Quote:
In its legal arguments, the Seneca Nation "expressly acknowledges that, as a general principle, New York State has the authority to require reservation retailers to collect excise taxes on sales to non-Indians," Arcara wrote.



treaty violation by the 'tribes'



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#1380671 --- 01/03/13 02:14 PM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: bluezone]
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32557
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Teonan
a hemispheric population estimated to have been as great as 125 million


are you suggesting that there were about 125 million 'tribal' members worldwide at that time?
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#1380673 --- 01/03/13 02:22 PM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: bluezone]
Teonan Offline
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Registered: 05/30/12
Posts: 4861
Loc: Malmö
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Teonan
a hemispheric population estimated to have been as great as 125 million


are you suggesting that there were about 125 million 'tribal' members worldwide at that time?


Prior to genocidal European contact and the western hemisphere becoming a prison-house of Indigenous NATIONS - yepper.
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#1380676 --- 01/03/13 02:30 PM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: Teonan]
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32557
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Teonan
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Teonan
a hemispheric population estimated to have been as great as 125 million


are you suggesting that there were about 125 million 'tribal' members worldwide at that time?


Prior to genocidal European contact and the western hemisphere becoming a prison-house of Indigenous NATIONS - yepper.


so where did they all go?
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#1380679 --- 01/03/13 02:35 PM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: bluezone]
Timbo Offline
Silver Member

Registered: 07/18/12
Posts: 14386
Loc: CNY
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Besides, I'd say a number in at least the billions,


the NYS 'tribes' illegally pocket that amount every year
there are over 600 more 'tribes'
seems it is the 'tribes' that owe the USA


Well, it only took you four posts to finally arrive at the core of your argument, but here we are. You simply want ME to give money to Native Americans, so that YOU can take THAT money from them, after taking everything ELSE from them.

Why didn't you just SAY so?

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#1380693 --- 01/03/13 03:13 PM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: bluezone]
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32557
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Timbo
You mean helped as in exterminated, massacred, raped, beaten, murdered mutilated, reeducated, amputated, scalped, interred, infected, branded, whipped, relocated, lied to and plundered?

Originally Posted By: Timbo

Everyone's entitled to their own opinions, but not their own facts.


feel free to provide the FACTS
_________________________
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#1380695 --- 01/03/13 03:20 PM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: bluezone]
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32557
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Besides, I'd say a number in at least the billions,


Quote:
John Stossel: Freeloading doesn't help the freeloader Indians
Wednesday, March 30, 2011


"No group has been more "helped" by the American government than American Indians. Yet no group in America does worse.

Almost a quarter of Native Americans live in poverty. 66 percent are born to single mothers. They have short life spans. Indian activists say the solution is -surprise- more money from the government. But Washington already spends about $13 billion on programs for Indians every year.

There are special programs in 20 different Departments and Agencies: Empowering Tribal Nations Initiative, Advancing Nation to Nation Relationships, Protecting Indian Country, Improving Trust Land Management, New Energy Frontier Initiative, Climate Change Adaptation Initiative, Construction, Improving Trust Management, Tribal Priority Allocations, Resolving Land and Water Claims, Indian Land Consolidation Program. This is just a partial list.

I say government already does too much. Indians would be better off without government handouts. I have evidence: tribes not recognized by the federal government, tribes that get no special help, often do better


Timbo show us the treaties that state these are to be provided?

just the FACTS...
_________________________
"OUR COUNTRY IS IN MOURNING, A SOLDIER DIED TODAY."

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#1380698 --- 01/03/13 03:29 PM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: bluezone]
Timbo Offline
Silver Member

Registered: 07/18/12
Posts: 14386
Loc: CNY
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Besides, I'd say a number in at least the billions,


Quote:
John Stossel: Freeloading doesn't help the freeloader Indians
Wednesday, March 30, 2011


"No group has been more "helped" by the American government than American Indians. Yet no group in America does worse.

Almost a quarter of Native Americans live in poverty. 66 percent are born to single mothers. They have short life spans. Indian activists say the solution is -surprise- more money from the government. But Washington already spends about $13 billion on programs for Indians every year.

There are special programs in 20 different Departments and Agencies: Empowering Tribal Nations Initiative, Advancing Nation to Nation Relationships, Protecting Indian Country, Improving Trust Land Management, New Energy Frontier Initiative, Climate Change Adaptation Initiative, Construction, Improving Trust Management, Tribal Priority Allocations, Resolving Land and Water Claims, Indian Land Consolidation Program. This is just a partial list.

I say government already does too much. Indians would be better off without government handouts. I have evidence: tribes not recognized by the federal government, tribes that get no special help, often do better


Timbo show us the treaties that state these are to be provided?

just the FACTS...



And I repeat what I said in an earlier post... John Stossel is an !diot!

Do you think ANY amount of money can pay back the fact that an entire CONTINENT was brutally taken from them?

That was a rhetorical question. No need in replying.



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#1380713 --- 01/03/13 04:49 PM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: bluezone]
Timbo Offline
Silver Member

Registered: 07/18/12
Posts: 14386
Loc: CNY

An Open Letter to Chicago Jesus.

I offer from the bottom of my heart, my most sincere apologies for assuming that you were the dimmest bulb on these forums.

Unknown to me, there has all along, been one Luddite of intellectualism who is chief above all.

If I have, in any way, caused undue duress or have been guilty of unknowingly committing slander, I hereby, free of coercion, ask for your forgiveness in this matter.

-Timbo

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#1381464 --- 01/08/13 08:24 AM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: Timbo]
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32557
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Do you think ANY amount of money can pay back the fact that an entire CONTINENT was brutally taken from them?


but yet you continue to live on land that is NOT YOURS...

hope that $1,000 'donation' you made to the 'tribes' helps ease your mind

why did the 'tribes' side with the british?


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"OUR COUNTRY IS IN MOURNING, A SOLDIER DIED TODAY."

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#1381465 --- 01/08/13 08:34 AM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: Timbo]
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32557
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Do you think ANY amount of money can pay back the fact that an entire CONTINENT was brutally taken from them?


Originally Posted By: Timbo
Besides, I'd say a number in at least the billions,


are you backtracking again?
_________________________
"OUR COUNTRY IS IN MOURNING, A SOLDIER DIED TODAY."

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#1381469 --- 01/08/13 09:01 AM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: Timbo]
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32557
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Do you think ANY amount of money can pay back the fact that an entire CONTINENT was brutally taken from them?


it was NOT the 'tribes' land

remember just the FACTS...


Quote:

Indianz.Com. In Print.
http://www.indianz.com/News/2012/007365.asp

Anthropologist says Kennewick Man was not Native American
WEDNESDAY, OCTOBER 10, 2012
Filed Under: Education | Environment | National
More on: kennewick man, nagpra

An anthropologist from the Smithsonian National Museum of Natural History told tribal leaders that Kennewick Man, whose remains date back 9,500 years, was not Native American, The Seattle Times reports.

Doug Owsley said his research shows that Kennewick Man was similar to Asian Coastal people. "There is not any clear genetic relationship to Native American peoples," he told tribal leaders at a meeting yesterday, the Times reported.

Owsley also said Kennewick Man's diet was not similar to that of tribes currently in Northwest. "This is a man from the coast, not a man from here," he told tribes.

Kennewick Man was discovered on federal land in Washington that used to be a part of the Umatilla Reservation. Tribes sought to rebury him under the Native American Graves Protection and Repatriation Act but the courts ruled that the remains were too old to be covered by the law.

Tribal leaders are still hopeful that they will be able to rebury Kennewick Man, known as Techaminsh Oytpamanatityt, or Ancient One, in the Yakama language.
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#1382013 --- 01/11/13 06:29 PM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: bluezone]
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32557
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
http://www.citizensalliance.org.
Indian Treaties and Current Federal Indian Policy
By Darrel Smith
Editor of the CERA Journal

Many people agree that federal Indian policy is harmful, even racist, but they think that these policies are required by the treaties that have been entered into between the federal government and Indian tribes. The United States Government entered into about 373 treaties with less than 150 Indian tribes between 1778 and 1868. Many tribes have multiple treaties. For example, there are twenty treaties with the Cherokee, forty-four with the Chippewa and fifteen with the Choctaw. The treaties and agreements with the various Sioux bands are recorded in a three volume book set. The Bureau of Indian Affairs recognizes 564 tribes (August, 2009). There are also, numerous agreements between the government and tribes starting in 1792 and occurring especially after the end of the treaty period in 1871.

The federal government recognizes hundreds of tribes that don't have a single treaty with the government. There isn't a single treaty between the government and Indian people in general. All the treaties were between the government and specific Indian tribes. A treaty with one entity doesn't bind relations with other entities. Treaty provisions with Spain, for example, don't normally control our relations with Denmark. If federal Indian policy is required by treaty provisions why does the government recognize and deal with treaty and non-treaty tribes essentially the same? Why do they deal with different tribes who have different treaties, and treaty provisions, essentially the same? The vast majority of modern federal Indian policy is unrelated to Indian treaties.

The Constitution makes the U. S. Constitution, laws and treaties the "supreme Law of the Land" over state authority with this clause:

"This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding."[Art.VI, Cl. 2]

(The "Legal Issues" section of our web site is one of the few places you can find a link to all the Indian treaties.) Indian treaties are valid historical documents equal to the highest law of the land and superior to state constitutions and laws, but are superseded by later federal treaties, legal agreements, laws, and, of course, the US Constitution itself. For example, in Reid v. Covert, 354 U.S.

1 (1957) the Supreme Court said:

"There is nothing new or unique about what we say here. This Court has regularly and uniformly recognized the supremacy of the Constitution over a treaty. For example, in Geofroy v. Riggs, 133 U.S. 258, 267, it declared: "'The treaty power, as expressed in the Constitution, is in terms unlimited except by those restraints which are found in that instrument against the action of the government or of its departments, and those arising from the nature of the government itself and of that of the States. It would not be contended that it extends so far as to authorize what the Constitution forbids, or a change in the character of the [354 U.S. 1, 18] government or in that of one of the States, or a cession of any portion of the territory of the latter, without its consent.' "This Court has also repeatedly taken the position that an Act of Congress, which must comply with the Constitution, is on a full parity with a treaty, and that when a statute which is subsequent in time is inconsistent with a treaty, the statute to the extent of conflict renders the treaty null. It would be completely anomalous to say that a treaty need not comply with the Constitution when such an agreement can be overridden by a statute that must conform to that instrument."

Tribal activists often claim a favored provision out of a single treaty while ignoring other provisions of the same treaty and also later treaties, agreements, laws and the Constitution with its Amendments. They then attack anyone who objects to this simplistic approach as anti-treaty and anti-Indian, and there are some very significant later laws and constitutional provisions that impact treaty interpretations.

The Fourteenth Amendment, the Dawes and Burke Acts, the Citizenship Act of 1924 and many other laws and constitutional provisions legally should take precedence over any inconsistent provisions of earlier treaties. Indians on reservations still do not have the protections of our state and federal constitutions. Not only is the current situation not required by law, it violates any normal understanding of law. For an explanation of the status of tribal members on reservations read the article entitled Why Indians are Second Class Citizens available at the bottom of the "Home Page" on our web site at: http://www.citizensalliance.org .

Modern federal Indian policy is entirely dependent on the existence of tribal governments in order to function. If treaties didn't prevent the end of tribal governments as political entities as mandated by the Dawes and Burke Acts, then these same treaties certainly can't require the reestablishment of political tribal governments by the Indian Reorganization Act of 1934. Justice Clarence Thomas referred to this while concurring in United States v. Lara:

"Next, the Court acknowledges that '[t]he treaty power does not literally authorize Congress to act legislatively, for it is an Article II power authorizing the President, not Congress, 'to make Treaties.'"… (quoting U.S. Const., Art. II, §2, cl. 2). This, of course, suffices to show that it provides no power to Congress, at least in the absence of a specific treaty. Cf. Missouri v. Holland, 252 U. S. 416 (1920). The treaty power does not, as the Court seems to believe, provide Congress with freefloating power to legislate as it sees fit on topics that could potentially implicate some unspecified treaty. Such an assertion is especially ironic in light of Congress' enacted prohibition on Indian treaties.

"The Federal Government cannot simultaneously claim power to regulate virtually every aspect of the tribes through ordinary domestic legislation and also maintain that the tribes possess anything resembling 'sovereignty.'"

Not only is Judge Thomas correct in his analysis that that you need a specific treaty provision, as has been noted above, you also need a specific treaty that hasn't been voided by later treaties, agreements, laws or the provisions of the Constitution itself. Then that treaty only controls relations with the specific tribe involved. These limitations guarantee that treaties cannot provide a valid legal basis for modern federal Indian policy. Just one question should be sufficient to clearly demonstrate this fact. Where are the treaty provisions that authorize the federal government to hold the deed to all "Indian land?" Very simply, they don't exist. Many of the most common and important treaty provisions would be fulfilled by finally granting full and equal citizenship rights to all Indians.


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#1382046 --- 01/11/13 08:37 PM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: bluezone]
Timbo Offline
Silver Member

Registered: 07/18/12
Posts: 14386
Loc: CNY

After 200 years of the US government repeatedly breaking treaties, it bothers you when American Indians disagree with current treaties?

Your apparent hatred of Native Americans and general intransigence, makes you unworthy of my time, where this issue is concerned.

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#1382115 --- 01/12/13 09:18 AM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: Timbo]
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32557
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Timbo

After 200 years of the US government repeatedly breaking treaties


point out the 'treaties' 'broken' regarding th NYS 'tribes'?
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"OUR COUNTRY IS IN MOURNING, A SOLDIER DIED TODAY."

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#1382144 --- 01/12/13 04:03 PM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: bluezone]
Timbo Offline
Silver Member

Registered: 07/18/12
Posts: 14386
Loc: CNY
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Everyone's entitled to their own opinions, but not their own facts.

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#1382305 --- 01/13/13 09:20 AM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: Timbo]
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32557
Loc: USA
would need a specfic 'treaty' and clause in that 'treaty' that you say was 'broken'
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