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#1378892 - 12/21/12 05:59 PM Experts: NRA Speech-Total Disaster!
Timbo Offline
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Registered: 07/18/12
Posts: 9572
Loc: CNY

Wayne LaPierre Shoots his Mouth Off (Again)
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/21..._n_2346967.html
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#1378893 - 12/21/12 06:02 PM Re: Experts: NRA Speech-Total Disaster! [Re: Timbo]
Teonan Offline
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Registered: 05/30/12
Posts: 2757
Loc: Cayuga bioregion

Blood On Their Hands: The Lying Monsters and Predators of the World



12.21.12 - 12:50 PM

by Abby Zimet

Whoah, that was incredible. NRA shill and loathsome human being Wayne LaPierre was up on the lecturn - taking NO questions - spouting his tone-deaf crap about how all this spilling of blood is the fault of videos! movies! monsters! Democrats! reporters! our own collective moral failings! the slant of the moon! But no: not guns. And how the only way to stop it is to get armed guards in all our schools because “the only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun" - a neat sound bite but too bad every bit of research ever done says it's BS - and here comes CodePink holding up its truth-telling, LaPierre-obliterating banner, for several, long, silent moments, for all to see. Powerful video.

See Wayne stick to his surreal script.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=V-0vlIx0Nt4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=0atxV2kI0gw


Oh yeah: And there was just another shooting, this time in Pennsylvania.
http://pittsburgh.cbslocal.com/2012/12/2...ty-shooting-2/.


_________________________
"Everything that has ever happened to us is there to make us stronger."
-John Trudell

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#1378913 - 12/21/12 09:13 PM Re: Experts: NRA Speech-Total Disaster! [Re: Teonan]
sands Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/05/05
Posts: 7429
Loc: NY
Originally Posted By: Teonan
Whoah, that was incredible. NRA shill and loathsome human being Wayne LaPierre was up on the lecturn - taking NO questions - spouting his tone-deaf crap about how all this spilling of blood is the fault of videos! movies! monsters! Democrats! reporters! our own collective moral failings! the slant of the moon! But no: not guns.



I thought you wanted to ignore the Second Amendment, not the First Amendment

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#1378916 - 12/21/12 09:16 PM Re: Experts: NRA Speech-Total Disaster! [Re: Teonan]
sands Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/05/05
Posts: 7429
Loc: NY
Oh, by the way, the NRA has attracted 8,000 new members a day since the murders in Connecticut.

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#1378918 - 12/21/12 09:25 PM Re: Experts: NRA Speech-Total Disaster! [Re: Teonan]
twocats Offline
Silver Member

Registered: 02/09/10
Posts: 11880
Loc: NYS
I guess he forgot that Columbine had armed guards.
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#1378923 - 12/21/12 09:32 PM Re: Experts: NRA Speech-Total Disaster! [Re: Teonan]
Rich_Tallcot Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/19/03
Posts: 4582
Loc: Greeneville, TN
Originally Posted By: Teonan


Whoah, that was incredible. NRA shill and loathsome human being Wayne LaPierre was up on the lecturn - taking NO questions - spouting his tone-deaf crap about how all this spilling of blood is the fault of videos! movies! monsters! Democrats! reporters! our own collective moral failings! the slant of the moon! But no: not guns. And how the only way to stop it is to get armed guards in all our schools because "the only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun" - a neat sound bite but too bad every bit of research ever done says it's BS -


The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun.

http://jpfo.org/articles-assd02/volokh-civvy-guns.htm

Do Civilians Armed With Guns Ever Capture, Kill, or Otherwise Stop Mass Shooters?.


By Eugene Volokh, Law professor UCLA, December 14, 2012.

Backers of laws that let pretty much all law-abiding carry concealed guns in public places often argue that these laws will sometimes enable people to stop mass shootings. Opponents occasionally ask: If that's so, what examples can one give of civilians armed with guns stopping such shootings?

Sometimes, I hear people asking if even one such example can be found, or saying that they haven't heard even one such example. {They don't look because they don't want to find such examples.}

1, In Pearl, Mississippi in 1997, 16-year-old Luke Woodham stabbed and bludgeoned to death his mother at home, then killed two students and injured seven at his high school. As he was leaving the school, he was stopped by Assistant Principal Joel Myrick, who had gone out to get a handgun from his car. I have seen sources that state that Woodham was on the way to Pearl Junior High School to continue shooting, though I couldn't find any contemporaneous news articles that so state.

2. In Edinboro, Pennsylvania in 1996, 14-year-old Andrew Wurst shot and killed a teacher at a school dance, and shot and injured several other students. He had just left the dance hall, carrying his gun -- possibly to attack more people, though the stories that I've seen are unclear -- when he was confronted by the dance hall owner James Strand, who lived next door and kept a shotgun at home.

3. In Winnemucca, Nevada in 2008, Ernesto Villagomez killed two people and wounded two others in a bar filled with three hundred people. He was then shot and killed by a patron who was carrying a gun (and had a concealed carry license).

4. In Colorado Springs in 2007, Matthew Murray killed four people at a church. He was then shot several times by Jeanne Assam, a church member, volunteer security guard, and former police officer (she had been dismissed by a police department 10 years before, and to my knowledge hadn't worked as a police officer since). Murray, knocked down and badly wounded, killed himself.

So it appears that civilians armed with guns are sometimes willing to intervene to stop someone who had just committed a mass shooting in public. In what fraction of mass shootings would such interventions happen, if gun possession were allowed in the places where the shootings happen? We don't know. In what fraction would interventions prevent more killings and injuries, as opposed to capturing or killing the murderer after he's already done? We don't know. In what fraction would interventions lead to more injuries to bystanders? Again, we don't know. Finally, always keep in mind that mass shootings in public places should not be the main focus in the gun debate, whether for gun control or gun decontrol: They on average account for much less than 1% of all homicides in the U.S., and are unusually hard to stop through gun control laws (since the killer is bent on committing a publicly visible murder and is thus unlikely to be much deterred by gun control law, or by the prospect of encountering an armed bystander).


Since the events of Sandy Hook School 12/14/12 it may be easily forgotten that just three days prior, a shooting occurred on 12/11/12 at the Clackamas Town Center Mall in Oregon, with two people being killed before the shooter shot himself. What was not reported, apart it seems from just only one Portland TV station, KGW, there was someone there legally carrying concealed. There is a short article report covering this. http://www.kgw.com/news/Clackamas-man-armed-confronts-mall-shooter-183593571.html

By all accounts the CCW individual had his gun out from behind cover, which was after the two fatal shootings had already occurred, and had the shooter in his sights. He paused briefly due to the possible danger of hitting someone behind the shooter at which point the shooter saw him and immediately took his own life. The point to be noted is that here was someone available and potentially in a position to have possibly taken control had things continued further. No such person was on hand at the Sandy Hook school.

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#1378927 - 12/21/12 09:43 PM Re: Experts: NRA Speech-Total Disaster! [Re: Rich_Tallcot]
Teonan Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/30/12
Posts: 2757
Loc: Cayuga bioregion

Quest for the Silver Bullet

by wizardwerdna
Daily Kos member

Dec 21, 2012


Wayne LaPierre calls for guns accompanied by police as the one and only possible solution to the tragedies of our times. In supporting his position, the NRA presents three assumptions: (i) armed defenders is the silver bullet; (ii) no other solution can avoid the harm; and (iii) that no solution other than one that is perfect is worthy of discussion, when fundamental rights are in play.

The three assumptions are dogs that don't hunt. They sound like more relaxed statements that may be salutary, but used in the manner La Pierre tends to do, they are false and dangerous pabulum that leads nowhere. Of course, since that is his goal at times like this, he can be expected to use that framing. The danger is that he funds the political fortune of a great number of policymakers, who ape the fallacious reasoning.

It is useful to consider his words, and to note that, at least this time, he proved too much. His own words point the way to a broader, more robust solution.

It is only fair to note what LaPierre did say:

[N]obody has addressed the most important, pressing and immediate question we face: How do we protect our children right now, starting today, in a way that we know works?

[...]

The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun.


It doesn't take much to shut down the absolutist argument, because a good guy with a gun is neither necessary nor sufficient. A good guy with a gun might be helpless against a bad guy with a tank (or an assault weapon). A good guy with a gun might not be at the right place or in time to be responsive. Loughhner was subdued by unarmed bystanders until arrested by the armed police, and not before Gabby Giffords was shot multiple times. And the good guy with the gun might not be able to get a clear shot against a reckless depraved heart shooter in a crowd.

So there are other ways to stop bad guys with a gun, and good guys with a gun may not be sufficient to stop them. There is no silver bullet, but even if there was, it would be no good if the good guy is shot, disabled or not in the right place at the right time.

While not being an effective or only solution, what might go wrong by placing armed minimum wage workers in a school system? I could go on forever, but obviously, the employee might be subdued to obtain his weapon for harm, the employee might go postal, or the employee might seek out the position for the very purpose of being a wolf in a henhouse, armed and in the company of many children. And by the way, how is a school, particularly in low income districts, going to afford hiring a music teacher going to be able to hire a competent, reliable and professional rent-a-cop?

Perhaps LaPierre's false statement that the "only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun" points the way to other, more practical solutions? In particular, perhaps we might try to reduce or mitigate the bad guy having the gun. We might begin the problem by refining our notion of "bad guy," to be limited to the young, first-break psychotics that seem to be the most common perpetrators of these horrors, and look for meaningful ways to keep them from ready access to guns, or at least to weapons with high-volume magazines?

Perhaps we might deter deterrable, rational, healthy owners of such weapons from providing access or failing to secure such weapons with meaningful penalties, and enforcement mechanisms including inspections of the security so provided? Perhaps we might seriously approach mental health and carefully consider what can be done to intercede between the time someone is diagnosable, to slow the ease with which the means of tragedy are obtained and the time a trigger is pulled? Hell, at least provide someone with health care so that it is easier to get help than to get a gun.

Franklin poignantly wrote that "they who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." I share this sentiment. However, essential liberties are not without consequences and fencing off checks against those liberties in the name of absolute libertarianism has never been the practice in America. Freedom of speech is not absolute, whether or not it should be, and the NRA has already supported significant invasions of fourth and fifth amendment liberties that were greatly curtailed by the Patriot Act.

Whatever the solution is, the dialog must be improved. Stonewalling with pabulum should be excoriated, and thus exposes the NRA from its PR veneer as defender of legitimate rights for the interest of a healthy nation, to a well-funded entity existing to protect a single-minded special interest at the expense of all other relevant rights and interests.

He doesn't make this argument because it makes sense. He makes it because it makes dollars for his organization.
_________________________
"Everything that has ever happened to us is there to make us stronger."
-John Trudell

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#1378933 - 12/21/12 09:55 PM Re: Experts: NRA Speech-Total Disaster! [Re: Teonan]
sands Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/05/05
Posts: 7429
Loc: NY
Originally Posted By: Teonan
The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun.
It doesn't take much to shut down the absolutist argument, because a good guy with a gun is neither necessary nor sufficient.

Your argument is even easier to shut down. When the murders in Connecticut were happening, who did people ask for when they called 911, the good guys with the the guns (police) or their legislators to pass new gun laws?

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#1378936 - 12/21/12 10:07 PM Re: Experts: NRA Speech-Total Disaster! [Re: Teonan]
sands Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/05/05
Posts: 7429
Loc: NY
December 19th Gallup poll: 87% say increasing the police presence at schools "very effective" or "somewhat effective" at "preventing mass shootings at schools like the one that happened in Connecticut last week".

http://www.gallup.com/poll/159422/stop-s...%20-%20Politics

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#1378943 - 12/21/12 10:25 PM Re: Experts: NRA Speech-Total Disaster! [Re: sands]
Teonan Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/30/12
Posts: 2757
Loc: Cayuga bioregion
Originally Posted By: sands
Originally Posted By: Teonan
The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun.
It doesn't take much to shut down the absolutist argument, because a good guy with a gun is neither necessary nor sufficient.

Your argument is even easier to shut down. When the murders in Connecticut were happening, who did people ask for when they called 911, the good guys with the the guns (police) or their legislators to pass new gun laws?


Victims are demanding sensible measures...


Dan Gross of the Brady Campaign To Prevent Gun Violence in Washington, D.C., called suggestion to arm teachers,principals, 'insane'

Dec 18, 2012

Bruce Leshan

WASHINGTON, D.C. (WUSA)-- Relatives of the victims of some of the nation's worst gun massacres traveled from across the country to demand Congress and the President enact common sense gun laws.

They offered a litany of pain almost too horrible to bear. "My little brother Derrick... was riddled with bullets." "I'm here today wearing my son's shoes. They are the shoes he was wearing on April 20, 1999 when he was gunned down at Columbine High School."

Every day in America, about 32 families become new victims of gun violence.

Andrei Nikitchyuk's eight-year-old son Bear was walking toward the principal's office in Newtown. "He says he saw bullets passing by."

A teacher rescued him. "She pulled them in her own classroom and barricaded the door."

Now Nikitchyuk says Washington has to rescue America with sensible gun laws. "It's not a partisan issue. It's an issue of the safety of our children."

Some gun rights advocates say the answer is more guns, not fewer. That perhaps an armed principal might have saved lives at Sandy Hook Elementary. "So when she heard gunfire, she whips it out and takes him out before he hurts those precious children," said Rep. Louie Gohmert (R-TX) on Sunday.

"That is insane," responded Dan Gross of the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence. "That's saying the only answer we have to violence is more violence."

Instead the families suggest a solution might include a renewed ban on assault rifles and closing loopholes that allow 40 percent of gun sales to go through with no background check.

"I think about my sister every time there's a shooting," says Omar Samaha of Chantilly, who lost his sister Reema at Virginia Tech. "74 percent of NRA members support universal background checks, so what are we waiting for?"

The families are convinced the slaughter of 20 innocents just before Christmas will tip the country to change.

http://www.wusa9.com/news/article/234244/373/Families-Of-Gun-Massacre-Victims-Demand-Change
_________________________
"Everything that has ever happened to us is there to make us stronger."
-John Trudell

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#1378944 - 12/21/12 10:32 PM Re: Experts: NRA Speech-Total Disaster! [Re: Teonan]
sands Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/05/05
Posts: 7429
Loc: NY
Originally Posted By: Teonan
Relatives of the victims of some of the nation's worst gun massacres traveled from across the country to demand Congress and the President enact common sense gun laws.


“There is no such thing as Common Sense. The term is employed by those who seek to have a tidy little solution without the need for critical thinking OR it's used by those who attempt to control the dialogue over those who might disagree. It's a self-serving solution for the lazy and selfish.” - Timbo - Post #1378576 12/20/2012 11:20 AM

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#1378948 - 12/21/12 10:40 PM Re: Experts: NRA Speech-Total Disaster! [Re: Teonan]
twocats Offline
Silver Member

Registered: 02/09/10
Posts: 11880
Loc: NYS
Regarding arming teachers, can't you see this playing out in a gang infested high school? I can see the teacher being outnumbered and targeted for his or her gun. Some teenagers have no fear.
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Humanity is an ocean; if a few drops of the ocean are dirty, the ocean does not become dirty.

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#1378953 - 12/21/12 11:16 PM Re: Experts: NRA Speech-Total Disaster! [Re: twocats]
Josephus Offline
Silver Member

Registered: 08/25/00
Posts: 10917
Loc: NYS
I can also see innocent bystanders (i.e. students) getting killed in a cross fire by a teacher who might not be up to snuff on their weapon because (surprise!) it wasn't what they trained for and isn't their primary duty.
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#1378954 - 12/21/12 11:18 PM Re: Experts: NRA Speech-Total Disaster! [Re: twocats]
Teonan Offline
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Registered: 05/30/12
Posts: 2757
Loc: Cayuga bioregion

Indeed. I think these concerned mothers/NRA members agree tempting the possibility of increased violence in an urban high school is beyond the realm of unacceptable.


Moms Group Slams NRA Response to Sandy Hook Shooting

A group called MomsRising offered sharp criticism of the NRA's push to have armed guards in every school

Upper Saucon Patch
By Susan Koomar


The following statement was issued Dec. 21 by the group MomsRising:

“Today, Wayne LaPierre blamed everything except guns for the tragic deaths of 20 children and seven adults at Sandy Hook Elementary School. He even went so far as to suggest arming school personnel to avoid gun violence, and putting armed security in every school in the nation.

Instead of putting guns in our schools and forcing our children to live in fear every day, we should let them focus on learning -- and demand that our leaders worry about keeping dangerous weapons off the streets, out of schools, and away from our children.

All of Mr. LaPierre’s arguments and finger pointing are merely ways of deflecting the primary source of gun violence in our country. That source is guns. That’s why MomsRising is renewing its call for Congress to pass common sense gun policies.

Today, the NRA once again abdicated its responsibility for the gun violence that plagues our country by bringing to bear every resource it has to oppose even minimal, low bar, common sense efforts to improve gun safety, like ending the gun show and internet purchasing loopholes, and taking deadly assault weapons and high capacity magazines off the streets.

Putting more guns in schools isn't the answer, as LaPierre so cynically recommends. We need common sense gun violence prevention laws that include:

Universal background checks for all gun purchases, including gun shows and on the Internet.

An assault weapon ban, which also limits high capacity magazines.

A federal gun trafficking statute with real penalties to stop the illegal sales of guns between state-to-state and international jurisdictions.

Wayne LaPierre asked why we don’t cherish our children more than money. We absolutely do. We cherish our children above all else. We want to know why Mr. LaPierre does not cherish our children more than his guns.

At MomsRising, we have more than a million members, many of whom are also members of the NRA. We're hearing from people across the political spectrum that it's time for more logical thinking about our gun safety policies.

Today, we got an unequivocal message from the NRA that it is not truly committed to ending gun violence and will do anything it can to continue to support the manufacture and sales of the guns that are killing our children. We send back an unequivocal message that we will not give up until common sense gun laws prevail.”
_________________________
"Everything that has ever happened to us is there to make us stronger."
-John Trudell

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#1378963 - 12/22/12 12:08 AM Re: Experts: NRA Speech-Total Disaster! [Re: Teonan]
ProAct Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/19/10
Posts: 1259
Loc: New York State, Seneca County
I wonder how much financial and/or political connections weapons manufactuers have with officials of the NRA?

Wonder who controls who?

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#1378965 - 12/22/12 12:40 AM Re: Experts: NRA Speech-Total Disaster! [Re: sands]
Timbo Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/18/12
Posts: 9572
Loc: CNY
Originally Posted By: sands
Originally Posted By: Teonan
Relatives of the victims of some of the nation's worst gun massacres traveled from across the country to demand Congress and the President enact common sense gun laws.


“There is no such thing as Common Sense. The term is employed by those who seek to have a tidy little solution without the need for critical thinking OR it's used by those who attempt to control the dialogue over those who might disagree. It's a self-serving solution for the lazy and selfish.” - Timbo - Post #1378576 12/20/2012 11:20 AM


So, you agree with me then. At the very least you use the arguments against you when you believe it benefits your position.

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Everyone's entitled to their own opinions, but not their own facts.

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#1378966 - 12/22/12 12:40 AM Re: Experts: NRA Speech-Total Disaster! [Re: ProAct]
Ohithere Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/27/12
Posts: 1246
Originally Posted By: ProAct
I wonder how much financial and/or political connections weapons manufactuers have with officials of the NRA?

Wonder who controls who?



Forbes

12/21/2012
What The NRA's Wayne Lapierre Gets Paid To Defend Guns

By John Navin
'The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun.National Rifle Association executive VP Wayne Lapierre’s 2,200 word statement today on the massacre in Newtown, CT called for armed guards in schools and laid much of the blame for the shootings on media conglomerates and prosecutors unwilling to enforce existing laws.

Coming just a week after the shootings, it–unsurprisingly–put the organization on the front page of nearly every news web site in the world today, drawing endless ridicule from the left and inflaming the debate over guns in America once again.

If you’re a transparency fanatic like me, you appreciate knowing what kind of skin public people have in the game during episodes like this. So what did the NRA pay Lapierre to say that the best way to stop school shootings is to have the government put every mentally ill person in the nation on a watch list and arm school personnel to defend schools like banks?
Just under a million bucks.

That’s according to the most recent NRA filings with the IRS.

The numbers are a bit out of date. The last filing of a Form 990 from the NRA was in 2010. Still, if you’re interested in the numbers behind America’s most powerful gun lobby, it makes for interesting reading.

The organization’s mission is simply stated, right at the top: “To protect and defend the U.S. Constitution.” To accomplish this, in 2010 the NRA reported that it had 781 full time employees, 125,000 volunteers and generated revenues of $22.5 million.

Where does all that come from? In 2010, $71 million came from contributions and grants, $100 million from membership fees and $46 from other revenue sources, like ad sales ($20 million) royalties, rents and subscriptions.

In total, they spent $243.5, leaving a $15 million shortfall, at least that year, which was cushioned by assets of $37.5 million.

Where did all the money go? About $33 million went to salaries and wages (not including more than $4 million for the top brass), $28 million went to advertising and promotions. By far the biggest items were membership outreach: $57 million for membership communications, $24 million for printing and shipping, $16 million for educational programs. Just about $10 million went to the NRA’s lobbying arm, the Institute for Legislative Action.

More than $12.7 million went to Akron-Ohio based InfoCision, a huge telemarketing company that lists a broad spectrum of blue chip non-profits– including Smile Train, the American Diabetes Association, Easter Seals and Unicef—as well as the College Republican National Committee and companies like Time Warner and AT&T.

As for salaries, fifty-six people in the organization earned more than $100,000 in 2010—and 10 made more than $250,000. Lapierre does not top the list. Kayne B. Robinson, the executive director of general operations does. He was paid just over $1 million. Lapierre was second, pulling in $970,000 in reportable and estimated comp.

Chris W. Cox, the executive director of the group’s lobbying efforts, was third. He earned just over $666,000.



Edited by Ohithere (12/22/12 12:44 AM)

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#1378967 - 12/22/12 12:50 AM Re: Experts: NRA Speech-Total Disaster! [Re: Ohithere]
ProAct Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/19/10
Posts: 1259
Loc: New York State, Seneca County
Money/greed is the bottom line.

2nd amendment and safety, just a front.

I think NRA leaders need an epiphany.

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#1378970 - 12/22/12 01:05 AM Re: Experts: NRA Speech-Total Disaster! [Re: ProAct]
Offline

Senior Member

Registered: 01/16/12
Posts: 7644
Originally Posted By: ProAct
Money/greed is the bottom line.

2nd amendment and safety, just a front.

I think NRA leaders need an epiphany.



What do you want from the government Proact?

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#1378972 - 12/22/12 01:08 AM Re: Experts: NRA Speech-Total Disaster! [Re: ProAct]
Teonan Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/30/12
Posts: 2757
Loc: Cayuga bioregion
Originally Posted By: ProAct


I think NRA leaders need an epiphany.



Epiphany...
their gutless frontman shared his today.
_________________________
"Everything that has ever happened to us is there to make us stronger."
-John Trudell

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