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#1377634 - 12/15/12 09:11 AM "NRA...enabler of mass murderers."
Teonan Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/30/12
Posts: 2744
Loc: Gaia
“Al-Qaida killed 3,000 people in the World Trade Center in 2001. The United States went to war because of that. Because of the NRA, we’ve lost 10,000 people last year unnecessarily. It’s time we went to war,” he said. “And you have to say the National Rifle Association is the enabler of mass murderers. And we’ve got to stomp on them instead of kowtowing to them.”

- Rep.Jerrold Nadler-NY




Merry Christmas From the Gun Lobby

AlterNet
Posted by Martha Rosenberg

December 14, 2012


Once again, a nutter has cut down innocent people thanks to the easy availability of firearms and the Wild West the gun lobby has created. In a week, the shock at more carnage will be supplanted by gun lobby shills assuring the public that the occasional shooter in a movie theater, mall or school is the price we pay for a "free society" and our "gun rights." And the "violence wouldn't have happened" if the moviegoers, shoppers and students had just been armed themselves....


No carnage seems to jolt people out of their NRA trance. Christmas shoppers gunned down? TSA agent mowed down at the Cleveland Hopkins Airport by her husband who then kills himself? Kansas City Chiefs linebacker Jovan Belcher shoots his girlfriend in front of his own mother and drives to Arrowhead Stadium to shoot himself in front of team officials? These things happen!

33 dead at Virginia Tech? 70 gunned down at Batman movie? Arizona Congressperson Gabby Giffords and Kirkwood, Missouri mayor, public works director and council members shot? It's the price we pay for our "right" to own rapid fire weapons and arsenals. Murder/suicides are happening so regularly, no one even asks anymore, "The gunman was carrying WHAT?"--or "The firearms dealer sold a weapon to WHO?"

Of course the gun lobby says the "bad guys" will get firearms regardless of laws--which is why we need to be armed. But most mass shooters are legal gun owners who sail through background checks.

Seung-Hui Cho, the Virginia Tech killer, Stephen Phillip Kazmierczak, the Northern Illinois University killer, Sulejman Talovic, the Salt Lake City's Trolley Square mall shooter and Vincent J. Dortch, the Philadelphia Naval Shipyard shooter were all legal gun owners. Talovic was a Bosnian immigrant, legally required to show a second piece of identification, but bought the murder weapon at Sportsman's Fastcash, a pawnshop chain in Utah, with just one ID, say investigators.

Jiverly Voong, who killed 13 in Binghamton, NY and Richard Poplawski, who killed three Pittsburgh police officers, both in 2009, were legal gun owners. So was Bruce Pardo, one of two shooters dressed as Santa Claus is recent years, who bought at least five firearms within five months from a single weapons dealer before killing nine on Christmas Eve in Covina, CA.

Latina Williams, the Louisiana Technical College killer who was living in her car, paranoid and delusional and giving her possessions away in suicidal gestures, walked right into a New Orleans pawn shop and bought a .357 revolver and a box of ammunition the day before the shootings. Hey, she had rights. Jennifer Sanmarco, the Goleta postal facility killer was also a legal gun owner. So were Terry Ratzmann, the Milwaukee church service killer, Chai Vang the Wisconsin hunter killer and Bart Ross, who killed a Chicago Federal judge's husband and mother. Is there anyone who can't buy a firearm?

Still, the gun lobby is not satisfied. Gun laws are still too restrictive, especially in Illinois. On the same day Christmas shopping was interrupted by a gunman at an Oregon mall, the U.S. Seventh Circuit Court of Appeals bowed to the lobby and said Illinois' ban on carrying a concealed weapon in public is unconstitutional. Illinois is the only state to ban conceal and carry.

Make that was. END.



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#1377635 - 12/15/12 09:35 AM Re: "NRA...enabler of mass murderers." [Re: Teonan]
sands Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/05/05
Posts: 7285
Loc: NY
I agree with Teonan 100%! We should make ALL guns illegal to own, use, sell, or possess. Just look at how well it worked for drugs!

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#1377640 - 12/15/12 10:58 AM Re: "NRA...enabler of mass murderers." [Re: sands]
ProAct Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/19/10
Posts: 1258
Loc: New York State, Seneca County
Firearms are a reality in this life. More or less laws will not change that.

Its changing people's attitute about safety, need and use of guns. What does any American citizen need with an assult weapon, normally used by military in war? Its not a necessity for protection.

One of the problems is the push to own such assult weapons, as tho its a badge of honor.

Firearms are not play toys.

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#1377642 - 12/15/12 11:18 AM Re: "NRA...enabler of mass murderers." [Re: ProAct]
Offline

Senior Member

Registered: 01/16/12
Posts: 7644
Originally Posted By: ProAct



Firearms are not play toys.


Really?

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#1377644 - 12/15/12 12:03 PM Re: "NRA...enabler of mass murderers." [Re: ProAct]
twocats Offline
Silver Member

Registered: 02/09/10
Posts: 11876
Loc: NYS
I know that if we make guns illegal, only criminals will have guns, but in the course of reflecting on recent tragic events, I've come to realize that at one point, all of the weapons used were legally possessed by someone. I don't know how, but perhaps we need better regulation of legal gun possessors. I don't know if that includes passing some sort of psych evaluation like police officers or if it means better background checks or if it means limiting the number of rounds fired per minute. I don't have an answer, but I DO know that an answer cannot be found if there is no discussion. I don't think anyone is talking about banning guns, just trying to find a better way of keeping them out of the hands of the wrong people. This isn't a time for reactionary tactics from either side, but it should be a time of discussion. Perhaps someone smarter than I has an idea, but we'll never find out if those voices are silenced.
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#1377655 - 12/15/12 01:04 PM Re: "NRA...enabler of mass murderers." [Re: twocats]
I did it! Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/26/12
Posts: 1960
Loc: West Coast 29 Palms
Bull Crap. If he didn't have the stolen guns then he would of used a bomb. Guns don't kill people,Peolpe kill people.
Todays war guns don't kill as many as an IED does.
Take all the guns;guess who will have them? Gangs as they do now.
Yes I feel bad for all but like I said this man was mentaly sick. So yes he would of used something else because he set in his mind to do as much damage as he could.
Open your minds and just think if he didn't have a gun what would/could he had use. A bomb would of caused a hell of a lot
more deaths.
How many lives have been saved by a gun?
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#1377658 - 12/15/12 01:10 PM Re: "NRA...enabler of mass murderers." [Re: I did it!]
twocats Offline
Silver Member

Registered: 02/09/10
Posts: 11876
Loc: NYS
So, if someone thought of a way to keep weapons out of the hands of crazy people like this, you wouldn't support it?
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#1377672 - 12/15/12 01:59 PM Re: "NRA...enabler of mass murderers." [Re: twocats]
Offline

Senior Member

Registered: 01/16/12
Posts: 7644
Originally Posted By: twocats
So, if someone thought of a way to keep weapons out of the hands of crazy people like this, you wouldn't support it?


So how do you propose to keep weapons out of the hands of the crazies?

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#1377673 - 12/15/12 02:17 PM Re: "NRA...enabler of mass murderers." [Re: ]
twocats Offline
Silver Member

Registered: 02/09/10
Posts: 11876
Loc: NYS
Originally Posted By: Chicago Jesus
Originally Posted By: twocats
So, if someone thought of a way to keep weapons out of the hands of crazy people like this, you wouldn't support it?


So how do you propose to keep weapons out of the hands of the crazies?


Good question and I applaud your willingness to at least discuss the topic.

Since I'm not a gun owner, I am not familiar with the process of getting a gun, nor do I know the laws for carrying, storage, sharing, sales or shows. As I understand it, guns are readily available at gun shows with a driver's license. Doesn't that seem too easy? Shouldn't there be some background check for violence or felonies or mental health?
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#1377675 - 12/15/12 02:44 PM Re: "NRA...enabler of mass murderers." [Re: twocats]
SilverRose Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/13/05
Posts: 1997
Loc: Heart of the Lakes
Is China going to stop making knives or letting people have knives since some guy went into a school and slashed 22 kids?

Just asking. I hate guns myself. I don't understand why anyone that is not a hunter needs any kind of gun.

Someone said it was for protection...well, tell Nancy Lanza that - she was killed by the guns she bought for protection.
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#1377680 - 12/15/12 04:08 PM Re: "NRA...enabler of mass murderers." [Re: twocats]
sands Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/05/05
Posts: 7285
Loc: NY
Originally Posted By: twocats
As I understand it, guns are readily available at gun shows with a driver's license.



You have been misinformed. Federal Law prohibits anyone under the age of 21 (like the Connecticut shooter) from buying a handgun in all 50 states (57 if you are an Obama voter). Connecticut requires background checks on all handgun sales made at gun shows. In New York state, a purchase of ANY gun at a gun show requires the same NICS background check as a gun store. See New York State General Business Law ARTICLE 39-DD Sections 895, 896, and 897.

http://www.freeportrevolver.com/NYS%20Article%2039-DD.htm

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#1377682 - 12/15/12 04:38 PM Re: "NRA...enabler of mass murderers." [Re: ]
Teonan Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/30/12
Posts: 2744
Loc: Gaia
Originally Posted By: Chicago Jesus
Originally Posted By: twocats
So, if someone thought of a way to keep weapons out of the hands of crazy people like this, you wouldn't support it?


So how do you propose to keep weapons out of the hands of the crazies?





Deal with the 'crazies' from jump street.


Aurora's Hard Truth: Mental Health Screening for Gun Buyers Is Nearly Non-Existent

Josh Horwitz
Executive Director, Coalition to Stop Gun Violence

Posted: 08/01/2012

James Holmes, the gunman who allegedly killed 12 people and injured 58 others in just two minutes at a crowded midnight screening of The Dark Knight Rises in Aurora, appears to possibly be one of those Americans suffering from serious mental illness. Holmes was seeing Dr. Lynne Fenton, a psychiatrist at the University of Colorado who specializes in schizophrenia. Prior to the shooting, he sent her a notebook detailing his plans for the massacre. In June, Holmes applied to join a gun range but was rejected because the range's owner was disturbed by the "weird and bizarre" behavior Holmes exhibited on his voicemail recording. Immediately after the shooting on July 20th, Holmes told police officers that he was The Joker, a villain from Batman comic books and movies. We will undoubtedly learn many additional details about Holmes' mental health history in the months ahead...

Almost all Americans would agree that dangerously mentally ill individuals, possibly like James Holmes, and like Tucson shooter Jared Loughner (who was found incompetent to stand trial because of paranoid schizophrenia) should not be able to legally purchase firearms. And it's not like this is a problem without a solution -- there is no other high-income nation on the face of the earth in which Holmes and Loughner could have legally purchased such weapons. So how can we provide for the public's safety while at the same refraining from the stigmatization of those suffering with mental illness (because, to be fair, research has made it clear that the vast majority of the mentally ill will never be violent)?


The bottom line is that it's been almost 45 years since federal legislators defined mental health disqualifications for gun buyers in the Gun Control Act of 1968. It's time to see what else we can do to save lives. Providing law enforcement and mental health professionals with more tools won't stop every shooting, but -- combined with a policy of universal background checks on all gun sales -- could certainly lead to a future where grotesque acts of gun violence are not a daily feature of American life...

Article here:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/josh-horwitz/auroras-hard-truth-mental_b_1727695.html
_________________________
"They only call it class warfare when we fight back." - Anon.

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#1377704 - 12/15/12 08:44 PM Re: "NRA...enabler of mass murderers." [Re: sands]
I did it! Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/26/12
Posts: 1960
Loc: West Coast 29 Palms
Originally Posted By: sands
Originally Posted By: twocats
As I understand it, guns are readily available at gun shows with a driver's license.



You have been misinformed. Federal Law prohibits anyone under the age of 21 (like the Connecticut shooter) from buying a handgun in all 50 states (57 if you are an Obama voter). Connecticut requires background checks on all handgun sales made at gun shows. In New York state, a purchase of ANY gun at a gun show requires the same NICS background check as a gun store. See New York State General Business Law ARTICLE 39-DD Sections 895, 896, and 897.

http://www.freeportrevolver.com/NYS%20Article%2039-DD.htm


The only thing I would agree on is to stop papers like the swap sheet. I have used it several times some never ask or exchange names. Have the cash and walk out. But that would be to simple.

Background checks 100%. But that doesn't me in a few years some nut case won't do harm with a stolen weapon ;there's lot of them out thier. Hell the BATF was giving assault weapons away used to kill some of our Boarder Guards. Real nice job to Obamma He knew
what was going on.
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#1377707 - 12/15/12 09:12 PM Re: "NRA...enabler of mass murderers." [Re: I did it!]
Jeff Peters Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/03/07
Posts: 990
Loc: Geneva
I agree with you up to the last two sentences. They are not necessary, they make this political and, if you look at the investigation, that assumption is not true.

We need to have this discussion about keeping the gus out of the wrong hands (as much as possible), how to treat individuals that have violent tendencies ans how can the public be protectd and best protect themselves.

There is no way that we can hire and train enough police to be everywhere these crimes happen. We may be going back to the day when few left the house without some form of personal protection.

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#1377710 - 12/15/12 09:41 PM Re: "NRA...enabler of mass murderers." [Re: sands]
Harley Bob Tale Offline
Member

Registered: 09/13/12
Posts: 195
Loc: Mars
Originally Posted By: sands


You have been misinformed. Federal Law prohibits anyone under the age of 21 (like the Connecticut shooter) from buying a handgun in all 50 states (57 if you are an Obama voter). Connecticut requires background checks on all handgun sales made at gun shows. In New York state, a purchase of ANY gun at a gun show requires the same NICS background check as a gun store. See New York State General Business Law ARTICLE 39-DD Sections 895, 896, and 897.

http://www.freeportrevolver.com/NYS%20Article%2039-DD.htm


Incorrect.

Federal law prohibits firearms dealers from selling or delivering a shotgun or rifle, or ammunition for a shotgun or rifle, to any person the dealer knows or has reasonable cause to believe is under the age of 18.1 Federal law provides no age limitations with respect to the sale of a long gun or long gun ammunition by an unlicensed person.
Dealers are prohibited from selling or delivering firearms other than shotguns or rifles (e.g., handguns) or ammunition for those firearms to any person the dealer knows or has reasonable cause to believe is under the age of 21.2 Unlicensed persons may not sell, deliver or otherwise transfer a handgun or handgun ammunition to any person the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe is under the age of 18.3 Exceptions are provided for temporary transfers made for specified activities, including employment, ranching, farming, target practice and hunting.4
Federal law prohibits, with certain exceptions, the possession of a handgun or handgun ammunition by any person under the age of 18.5
Federal law provides no minimum age for the possession of long guns or long gun ammunition.


http://smartgunlaws.org/federal-law-on-minimum-age-to-purchase-possess/
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#1377713 - 12/15/12 09:49 PM Re: "NRA...enabler of mass murderers." [Re: Harley Bob Tale]
sands Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/05/05
Posts: 7285
Loc: NY
Originally Posted By: Harley Bob Tale
Originally Posted By: sands


You have been misinformed. Federal Law prohibits anyone under the age of 21 (like the Connecticut shooter) from buying a handgun in all 50 states (57 if you are an Obama voter) from a dealer. Connecticut requires background checks on all handgun sales made at gun shows. In New York state, a purchase of ANY gun at a gun show requires the same NICS background check as a gun store. See New York State General Business Law ARTICLE 39-DD Sections 895, 896, and 897.

http://www.freeportrevolver.com/NYS%20Article%2039-DD.htm


Incorrect.



Feel better?

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#1377714 - 12/15/12 09:57 PM Re: "NRA...enabler of mass murderers." [Re: Harley Bob Tale]
Ohithere Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/27/12
Posts: 1246
As TwoCat has stated, I do not own a gun nor do I plan to buy one as of yet. I have a question , let's take a country such as our Northern neighbors...Canada, why are their gun crime rates soooo much smaller than the USA

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#1377717 - 12/15/12 10:25 PM Re: "NRA...enabler of mass murderers." [Re: Ohithere]
sands Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/05/05
Posts: 7285
Loc: NY
Originally Posted By: Ohithere
Canada, why are their gun crime rates soooo much smaller than the USA



Good question. Culture is my guess. 32% of homicides in Canada are committed by guns. 60% of homicides in the US are committed by guns. It may sound like availability, but then how do you explain Puerto Rico, where guns are used in 94.8% of homicides? Or Switzerland, which has the 3rd highest rate of gun ownership in the world, but only has 57 gun homicides a year?


http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2012/jul/22/gun-homicides-ownership-world-list

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#1377726 - 12/15/12 11:43 PM Re: "NRA...enabler of mass murderers." [Re: sands]
VM Smith Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 11/29/05
Posts: 37933
Loc: Ship of Fools
Originally Posted By: sands
Originally Posted By: Ohithere
Canada, why are their gun crime rates soooo much smaller than the USA



Good question. Culture is my guess. 32% of homicides in Canada are committed by guns. 60% of homicides in the US are committed by guns. It may sound like availability, but then how do you explain Puerto Rico, where guns are used in 94.8% of homicides? Or Switzerland, which has the 3rd highest rate of gun ownership in the world, but only has 57 gun homicides a year?


http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2012/jul/22/gun-homicides-ownership-world-list


I think that the elephant in the room, which too many will not recognize and deal with, is the mental health of the average American.

Guns?! Until something is done re basic diet and nutrition, and the passing out, like candy, of dangerous drugs such as, but not limited to, SSRIs, then there will be far too many who can't be trusted with a butter knife.

But, you know, it's the inanimate tool that's the problem, so let's just step on another natural right, and thus harm everyone.
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#1377733 - 12/15/12 11:56 PM Re: "NRA...enabler of mass murderers." [Re: SilverRose]
twocats Offline
Silver Member

Registered: 02/09/10
Posts: 11876
Loc: NYS
Originally Posted By: SilverRose
Is China going to stop making knives or letting people have knives since some guy went into a school and slashed 22 kids?

Just asking. I hate guns myself. I don't understand why anyone that is not a hunter needs any kind of gun.

Someone said it was for protection...well, tell Nancy Lanza that - she was killed by the guns she bought for protection.



You are so right, silver rose. I've read in so many places that guns purchased for home defense are far, far more likely to be used against the residents than an intruder.

(Your odds of using your gun while being robbed increase exponentially the closer you get to Ithaca.) ;\)
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