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#1374198 --- 11/21/12 05:38 PM Re: Obama to strip gun rights may start Civil War [Re: ]
Cuzi Sedso Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/06/11
Posts: 1428
Loc: NY
Don't worry, Harley Huff 'n Puff, there's not going to be any general confiscation of guns. That's just right wing paranoia being stirred up to give you another reason to hate the President (as if you needed one).

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#1374207 --- 11/21/12 06:50 PM Re: Obama to strip gun rights may start Civil War [Re: Cuzi Sedso]
sands Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/05/05
Posts: 8255
Loc: NY
Originally Posted By: Cuzi Sedso
Same question applies to domestic enemies -- who are they?



Who did Thomas Jefferson and George Washington think it was?

"A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined, but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government."

"The strongest reason for the people to retain their right to keep and bear arms is as a last resort to protect themselves against tyranny in government."

"For a people who are free, and who mean to remain so, a well organized and armed militia is their best security."
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#1374224 --- 11/21/12 09:05 PM Re: Obama to strip gun rights may start Civil War [Re: sands]
Cuzi Sedso Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/06/11
Posts: 1428
Loc: NY
That's why my neighbors are having a bake sale so we can buy an Abrams tank and park it at the end of the block to keep the government out!

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#1374243 --- 11/22/12 12:01 AM Re: Obama to strip gun rights may start Civil War [Re: sands]
Timbo Offline
Silver Member

Registered: 07/18/12
Posts: 13470
Loc: CNY

Who did Thomas Jefferson and George Washington think it was?

"A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined, but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government."

"The strongest reason for the people to retain their right to keep and bear arms is as a last resort to protect themselves against tyranny in government."

"For a people who are free, and who mean to remain so, a well organized and armed militia is their best security."
[/quote]

1) A bogus Washington quote:
"A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government."

The actual quote:
"A free people ought not only to be armed but disciplined; to which end a uniform and well digested plan is requisite: And their safety and interest require that they should promote such manufactories, as tend to render them independent on others, for essential, particularly for military supplies." --- George Washington's First Annual Message to Congress (January 8, 1790)

1) "The strongest reason for people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government". --- Falsely attributed to Thomas Jefferson.

Occasionally the Jefferson quote is given with the following citation: Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 (C.J.Boyd, Ed., 1950). The publication exists, but the quote does not. The editor's correct name is Julian P. Boyd, not C.J. Boyd.

Sometimes the quote appears with Jefferson's, "No freeman shall ever be debarred the use of arms", which is taken from his proposal for Virginia's constitution of 1776. The bogus quote has appeared both before the "No freeman..." sentence and after it. However in reality, the "tyranny" portion of the quote is absent from Jefferson's draft.

3) And finally: "For a people who are free, and who mean to remain so, a well organized and armed militia is their best security."

This quote is totally taken out of context and means almost exactly the opposite of the way 'Sands' intends for it to be read, as can be clearly seen when read in it's entirety within the paragraph it resides within.

Complete text:
"Considering the extraordinary character of the times in which we live, our attention should unremittingly be fixed on the safety of our country. For a people who are free, and who mean to remain so, a well organized and armed militia is their best security. It is therefore incumbent on us at every meeting to revise the condition of the militia, and to ask ourselves if it is prepared to repel a powerful enemy at every point of our territories exposed to invasion. Some of the States have paid a laudable attention to this object, but every degree of neglect is to be found among others. Congress alone having the power to produce an uniform state of preparation in this great organ of defense, the interests which they so deeply feel in their own and their country's security will present this as among the most important objects of their deliberation." --- Senate and House of the United States, Eighth Annual Message (Nov. 8, 1801 )

If you spent researching some facts before you post, you may actually learn something. It seems your bizarre notions are totally at odds with the actual intentions of our founding fathers.
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#1374258 --- 11/22/12 08:17 AM Re: Obama to strip gun rights may start Civil War [Re: Timbo]
Josephus Offline
Silver Member

Registered: 08/25/00
Posts: 11561
Loc: NYS
Good post, Timbo! \:\)
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#1374259 --- 11/22/12 08:22 AM Re: Obama to strip gun rights may start Civil War [Re: Timbo]
Cuzi Sedso Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/06/11
Posts: 1428
Loc: NY
Context, schmontext! These guys aren't interested in historical context or accuracy, they're simply regurgitating the factoid slop published by fanatics at the NRA. They won't be satisfied until there's a missile launcher in every front yard.

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#1374265 --- 11/22/12 09:13 AM Re: Obama to strip gun rights may start Civil War [Re: Cuzi Sedso]
Hard Corps Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/01/12
Posts: 764
Loc: The Village
As a pro hunting gun owner this threat seems very real to me. Exercising my 2nd Amendment rights is important to me as any of the Constitutional Rights that others deem important to them. Obama has publicly stated his intention and that is to ban guns and if that doesn't work he has proposed a high tax on ammunition.

Right now gun and ammunition sales are doing more to help the local economies than obamacare is.

So yes, I perceive this to be a real threat. Just as many of you perceived the threat by Romney to repeal obamacare and had you all voting to re-elect an already proven failure out of sheer paranoia.

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#1374266 --- 11/22/12 09:39 AM Re: Obama to strip gun rights may start Civil War [Re: Hard Corps]
Cuzi Sedso Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/06/11
Posts: 1428
Loc: NY
Could you provide the quote where you say Obama has stated that he wants to ban guns? I'd like to see it in full context. I don't remember that he's ever said anything about banning guns in general. I remember him saying that he sees no reason for firearms designed and engineered specifically for killing on the battlefield to be generally available to the the public. I seem to remember him saying that he recognizes the rights of hunters and sportsmen to have firearms, and he recognizes that hunting is a long standing tradition in many families. As to a tax on ammunition, I recall that being put on the table by gun control advocates, but not by Obama.

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#1374272 --- 11/22/12 10:33 AM Re: Obama to strip gun rights may start Civil War [Re: Cuzi Sedso]
Hard Corps Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/01/12
Posts: 764
Loc: The Village
Do your own research. Research his voting record from back when he was a senator. Review his support for the U.N. gun treaty ban.
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#1374277 --- 11/22/12 11:01 AM Re: Obama to strip gun rights may start Civil War [Re: Cuzi Sedso]
sands Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/05/05
Posts: 8255
Loc: NY
Originally Posted By: Cuzi Sedso
Could you provide the quote where you say Obama has stated that he wants to ban guns?




The last Presidential debate. Should be available on YouTube.

PS - Happy Thanksgiving.
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#1374279 --- 11/22/12 11:09 AM Re: Obama to strip gun rights may start Civil War [Re: sands]
Formermac Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/22/12
Posts: 8126
Loc: Above ground
Originally Posted By: sands
Originally Posted By: Cuzi Sedso
Could you provide the quote where you say Obama has stated that he wants to ban guns?




The last Presidential debate. Should be available on YouTube.

PS - Happy Thanksgiving.


You're an idiot to lie as such, get it right, Obama called for a renewal on the assault weapons ban.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IyVldVMA7vU&feature=player_detailpage


Edited by Formermac (11/22/12 11:13 AM)

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#1374280 --- 11/22/12 11:14 AM Re: Obama to strip gun rights may start Civil War [Re: sands]
Cuzi Sedso Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/06/11
Posts: 1428
Loc: NY
Ya know, the replies from you and HardCorps sound like you think you heard it somewhere but you can't identify the source or the context. Are you sure it wasn't something being parafarted by Limbaugh? I'm sure there's some ground in the middle here on the availability of guns without total ban/confiscation or an arms race among the general population to the extent that my neighborhood has more armament than many small countries.

BTW, Happy Thanksgiving to you guys too.

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#1374290 --- 11/22/12 03:14 PM Re: Obama to strip gun rights may start Civil War [Re: Cuzi Sedso]
Josephus Offline
Silver Member

Registered: 08/25/00
Posts: 11561
Loc: NYS
I can't remember now where I saw it, but I read something that said that the 2nd amendment has fared better under Obama than it did under Bush! Wish I could remember where I saw that, but I think the video clip posted by Formermac supports the idea that Obama has no intentions of trying to abolish the 2nd amendment. Those who think he does best education themselves on what a Herculean task that would actually be.
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I don't want my country back... I want my country forward!

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#1374301 --- 11/22/12 06:06 PM Re: Obama to strip gun rights may start Civil War [Re: Josephus]
sands Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/05/05
Posts: 8255
Loc: NY
Originally Posted By: Josephus
the video clip posted by Formermac supports the idea that Obama has no intentions of trying to abolish the 2nd amendment.



Quote from the video (2:41), "seeing if we can get automatic weapons that kill folks in amazing numbers out of the hands of criminals and the mentally ill."

Memo to Obama: Chapter 44 of Title 18 of the United States Code, The Gun Control Act of 1968 did that.

It must be working as I can't even find a number for people killed by someone using a automatic weapon.
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#1374331 --- 11/23/12 02:11 AM Re: Obama to strip gun rights may start Civil War [Re: ]
Timbo Offline
Silver Member

Registered: 07/18/12
Posts: 13470
Loc: CNY
The Obama administration plans to negotiate a treaty to regulate the international export and import of weapons. It says that it won't support any treaty that regulates the domestic transfer or ownership of weapons, or that infringes on the Second Amendment.

For the first time since 1993, the number of federally licensed U.S. retail gun dealers has increased. The country added 1,167 more licensed retail gun dealers. --- Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives records.

After the assault weapons ban in 1994, the number of gun dealerships dropped annually until 2010. As of October 2012, there were 50,812 retail gun dealers - that's 3,303 more than in 2009.

Under Obama, gun laws have eased, allowing firearms in bars, restaurants and national parks.
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Everyone's entitled to their own opinions, but not their own facts.

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#1374333 --- 11/23/12 05:10 AM Re: Obama to strip gun rights may start Civil War [Re: sands]
Josephus Offline
Silver Member

Registered: 08/25/00
Posts: 11561
Loc: NYS
Originally Posted By: sands
Originally Posted By: Josephus
the video clip posted by Formermac supports the idea that Obama has no intentions of trying to abolish the 2nd amendment.



Quote from the video (2:41), "seeing if we can get automatic weapons that kill folks in amazing numbers out of the hands of criminals and the mentally ill."

Memo to Obama: Chapter 44 of Title 18 of the United States Code, The Gun Control Act of 1968 did that.

It must be working as I can't even find a number for people killed by someone using a automatic weapon.



As I said, Mr. Misdirection... Obama isn't trying to abolish the 2nd amendment.
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I don't want my country back... I want my country forward!

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#1374357 --- 11/23/12 11:28 AM Re: Obama to strip gun rights may start Civil War [Re: ]
Timbo Offline
Silver Member

Registered: 07/18/12
Posts: 13470
Loc: CNY
Taken from Politifact.com:

"Obama never endorsed a "total ban." But his campaign for state Senate almost 16 years ago did say yes to supporting such a ban on a state level in a questionnaire.

What came of the campaign endorsement of such a policy?

The Associated Press noted that Obama's legislative record in Illinois "shows strong support for gun restrictions, such as limiting handgun purchases to one a month, but no attempts to ban them." On a different questionnaire eight years later, Obama's position was that "a complete ban on handguns is not politically practicable" but that reasonable restrictions should be imposed, AP reported."
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Everyone's entitled to their own opinions, but not their own facts.

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#1374373 --- 11/23/12 03:53 PM Re: Obama to strip gun rights may start Civil War [Re: Josephus]
sands Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/05/05
Posts: 8255
Loc: NY
Originally Posted By: Josephus
Originally Posted By: sands
Originally Posted By: Josephus
the video clip posted by Formermac supports the idea that Obama has no intentions of trying to abolish the 2nd amendment.



Quote from the video (2:41), "seeing if we can get automatic weapons that kill folks in amazing numbers out of the hands of criminals and the mentally ill."

Memo to Obama: Chapter 44 of Title 18 of the United States Code, The Gun Control Act of 1968 did that.
It must be working as I can't even find a number for people killed by someone using a automatic weapon.



As I said, Mr. Misdirection... Obama isn't trying to abolish the 2nd amendment.



He is trying to restrict it with another "assault" weapon ban. Like I said before, where principle is involved, there can be no comprimse.
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#1374385 --- 11/23/12 06:58 PM Re: Obama to strip gun rights may start Civil War [Re: sands]
Josephus Offline
Silver Member

Registered: 08/25/00
Posts: 11561
Loc: NYS
Originally Posted By: sands
Originally Posted By: Josephus
Originally Posted By: sands
Originally Posted By: Josephus
the video clip posted by Formermac supports the idea that Obama has no intentions of trying to abolish the 2nd amendment.



Quote from the video (2:41), "seeing if we can get automatic weapons that kill folks in amazing numbers out of the hands of criminals and the mentally ill."

Memo to Obama: Chapter 44 of Title 18 of the United States Code, The Gun Control Act of 1968 did that.
It must be working as I can't even find a number for people killed by someone using a automatic weapon.



As I said, Mr. Misdirection... Obama isn't trying to abolish the 2nd amendment.



He is trying to restrict it with another "assault" weapon ban. Like I said before, where principle is involved, there can be no comprimse.

If attempting to restrict assault weapons is considered trying to abolish the 2nd amendment, then so is denying ex-cons and those who are declared to be insane the right to carry firearms. We've done that for ages... where is your outrage there?
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I don't want my country back... I want my country forward!

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#1374401 --- 11/23/12 10:16 PM Re: Obama to strip gun rights may start Civil War [Re: sands]
Timbo Offline
Silver Member

Registered: 07/18/12
Posts: 13470
Loc: CNY
Where principle is involved, there can be no comprimse.

Unwillingness to compromise indicates unwillingness to reason.
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Everyone's entitled to their own opinions, but not their own facts.

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