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#1357129 --- 08/04/12 02:17 AM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: Butt]
Rich_Tallcot Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/19/03
Posts: 5581
Loc: Greeneville, TN
Originally Posted By: Butt Head
Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
and hardly any of the traditional Iroquois governments or clan mothers, except maybe the Onondaga, are even recognized as a government by the U.S.
some body had better read this

indiancountrytodaymedianetwork.com/2011/08/24/bureau-of-indian-affairs-confirms-cayuga-traditional-council-48939

<--- ---<<<

Keel wrote, “I conclude that the source of the changes (in federal representatives and council members) was the action of each clan mother in carrying out her traditional clan responsibilities. I would be remiss if I failed to recognize the results of this exercise of ancient traditional authority by the Clan Mothers … By Haudenosaunee tradition, the Clan Mothers are the persons tasked with the responsibility of appointing representatives of their respective clans to serve on the Nation Council. Therefore, for purposes of the government-to-government relationship between the United States and the Cayuga Nation, I recognize the Nation Council as set out in Cayuga Nation Resolution 11-001.”

Read more:http://indiancountrytodaymedianetwork.com/2011/08/24/bureau-of-indian-affairs-confirms-cayuga-traditional-council-48939 http://indiancountrytodaymedianetwork.co...9#ixzz22WiOy7ls

<--- ---<<<

You UCE(less)guys are a joke, your minds are so twisted you see cross eyed
And you better read the date and the appeal Halftown filed the following month. Why do you think he moved the Cayuga offices to Geneva and Auburn and why do you think the traditional Cayuga drove a truck through the side of the Lakeside a few months ago?

Evidently you don't even live here as you don't know squat.

It would be nice if the Traditional governments were in charge, but alas, you are wrong again because it has not happened.

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#1357133 --- 08/04/12 02:45 AM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: Butt]
Rich_Tallcot Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/19/03
Posts: 5581
Loc: Greeneville, TN
Originally Posted By: Butt Head
Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot


Regardless, I posted the Treaty that you alleged made these federal reservations. Could you copy and paste the clause that applies to back up your lies?


what does this mean ?
ARTICLE 2.
The United States acknowledge the lands reserved to the Oneida, Onondaga and Cayuga Nations, in their respective treaties with the state of New-York and called their reservations, to be their property; and the United States will never claim the same, nor disturb them or either of the Six Nations, nor their Indian friends residing thereon and united with them, in the free use and enjoyment thereof: but the said reservations shall remain theirs, until they choose to sell the same to the people of the United States, who have the right to purchase

you sir, are so full of yourself some one should FLUSH

<--- ---<<<

signed BOB McGILL


What it means is that the State owned the Title to the land and allowed the tribe a use right to 100 square miles of this State owned land. Below is the State Treaty with the Cayuga and the 1788 Treaty of Fort Schuyler with the Oneida reads likewise. Both were ruled valid in the land claim because the State had not joined the union yet.

Treaty of Albany
February 25, 1789

A contract executed between the sachems, chiefs and warriors of the tribe or Nation of Indians, called the Cayugas, at a TREATY held in the city of Albany with George Clinton, Pierre Van Courtland, Ezro L’Hommedieu, Abraham Ten Broeck, John Hatham, Samuel Jones, Peter Ganesvoort. Jun. and Egbert Benson, commissioners on behalf of the State of New York, by which the said sachems, chiefs and warriors of the Cayuga covenanted, on the 25th of February 1789, as follows:

"First: the Cayugas do cede and grant ALL their lands to the people of the State of New York , forever."

Secondly: the Cayugas shall, OF THE CEDED LANDS, (meaning the State held title to them)hold to themselves, and to their posterity, forever, for their own use and cultivation, but not to be sold, leased, or in any other manner alienated, or disposed of, to others, (because it was henseforth State owned land) all that tract of land, beginning at the Cayuga salt spring on the Seneka Rive, and running thence southerly to intersect the middle of a line to be drawn from the outlet of Cayuga to the outlet of Waskongh, and from the said place of intersection, southerly, the general course of the eastern bank of the Cayuga lake, thence westerly, to intersect a line running on the west side of the Cayuga lake, at the mean distance of three miles from the western bank thereof, and from the said point of intersection, along the said line, so running on the west side of Cayuga lake, to the Seneka river, thence down the said river to the Cayuga lake, thence through the said lake, to the outlet thereof, and thence further down the Seneka river to the source of beginning, so as to comprehend within the limits aforesaid, and exclusive of the water of Cayuga lake, the quantity of one hundred square miles. Also the place in the Seneka river, at or near the place called Skayes, where the Cayuga have heretofore taken eel; and a competent piece of land on the southern side of the river, at the said place, sufficient for the Cayugas to land and encamp on, and to cure their eel. Excepted, nevertheless, out of the said land so reserved, one mile square at the Cayuga Ferry.

Thirdly: the Cayugas and their posterity, forever, shall enjoy the free rights of hunting in every part of the said CEDED lands, and of fishing in all the waters within the same.

Fourthly: in consideration of the said cession and grant, the people of the State of New York do, at this present TREATY, pay to the Cayugas, five hundred dollars, in silver, and the people of the State of New York shall pay to the Cayugas, on the first day of June next, at Fort Schuyler (formerly known as Fort Stanwix,) the further sum of one thousand six hundred and twenty five dollars, and, also the people of the State of New York shall annually pay to the Cayugas and their posterity, forever, on this first day of June and every year thereafter, at Fort Schuyler aforesaid, five hundred dollars in silver. But if the Cayugas or their posterity, shall at any time hereafter, elect that the whole, or any part of the said annual payment of five hundred dollars, shall be paid in clothing, or provisions, and give six weeks previous notice thereof to the governor of the State for the time being, then so much of the annual payment shall, for that time, be in clothing or provisions, as the Cayugas or their posterity shall elect, and at the price which same shall cost the people of the State of New York, at Fort Schuyler aforesaid. And, as a farther consideration to the Cayugas, the people of the State of New York shall grant to their adopted child, Peter Ryckman, whom they have expressed a desire to remain near them, to assist them, and as a benevolence from them, the Cayugas, to him, and in return for services rendered by him to their nation, the said tract of one mile square at the Cayuga ferry excepted, out of the said lands reserved to the Cayugas for their own use and cultivation, that of a tract beginning on the west bank of the Seneka lake, thence running due west (passing one chain north of a house lately erected, and now in occupation of the said Peter Ryckman), to the line partition between the State of New York and the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, of the lands ceded to each other, thence due south along said line of partition, thence due east to the Seneka lake, thence northerly along the bank of said lake, to the Place of the beginning, so as to contain sixteen thousand acres. The people of the State of New York shall grant three hundred and twenty acres to a white person married to a daughter of a Cayuga named Thaniowes, including the present settlement of the said person on the south side of Caghsion creek; and that the people of the State of New York shall grant the residue of the said tract of sixteen thousand acres to Peter Ryckman.

Fifthly: The people of the State of New York may, at all times hereafter, in such manner, and by such means, as they shall deem proper, prevent any person, except the Cayugas and their adopted brethren the Paanese, from residing or setting on the lands to be held by the Cayugas and their posterity for their use and cultivation, and if any person shall, without the consent of the people of the State of New York, come to reside or settle on the said lands, so CEDED, as aforesaid, the Cayugas and their posterity shall forthwith give notice of such intrusions to the governor of the said state for the time being, and further, the Cayugas and their posterity, forever, shall, at the request of the governor of the said State, be abiding to the people of the State of New York in removing all such intruders, and apprehending not only such intruders, but feloms and other offenders, who may happen to be on the said ceded lands, to that end, such intruders, felons and other offenders, may be brought to justice.

Notwithstanding the said reservation herein above specified to the Cayugas, it is declared to be the intent of the parties, that the Cayuga called Fish Carrier, shall have a mile squre of the reserved lands, for the separate use of himself, and for the separate use of his family, forever. Before sealing and delivery hereof, it was for trhe greater certainty, declared to be the intent of the parties, that this grant and cession is to be only the lands eastward of the partition line above mentioned, between the State of New York and the Commonwealth of Massachusetts; and that, with respect to such part of their country as it is to the westward of said partition line, the right and property of the Cayugas to be the same as if this grant and cession had not been made. The Cayuga salt spring and the land to the extent of one mile around the same, to remain for the commin use and benefit of the people of the State of New York, and the Cayugas and their posterity forever. And the land to be reserved at the fishing place near Skayes, shall be the extent of one mile on each side of the river, the above reservation of land on the southern side of the river, only, notwithstanding.


Glad you asked what it meant rather than assuming you actually knew.

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#1357143 --- 08/04/12 11:21 AM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: Rich_Tallcot]
Butt Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/25/12
Posts: 883
Loc: Geneva
there is a problem with your interpretation, where it says" hold to themselves" means they keep that part and the state gets gets the rest.

DON'T TRY TO TELL ME WHAT IT MEANS----- keep posting this stuff because it will only destroy you in the end because you think people are stupid, but the majority are a whole lot smarter than you think !

<--- ---<<<

BOB McGILL

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#1357150 --- 08/04/12 01:26 PM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: Butt]
Rich_Tallcot Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/19/03
Posts: 5581
Loc: Greeneville, TN
Originally Posted By: Butt Head
there is a problem with your interpretation, where it says" hold to themselves" means they keep that part and the state gets gets the rest.

DON'T TRY TO TELL ME WHAT IT MEANS----- keep posting this stuff because it will only destroy you in the end because you think people are stupid, but the majority are a whole lot smarter than you think !

<--- ---<<< BOB McGILL
Bhwahahaha As in Carcieri where NOW means NOW, in Cayuga ALL means ALL which is made clear in the first clause. And where it says in the second clause "hold to themselves" is preceded by OF THE CEDED LANDS, (meaning the State held title to them). Likewise in the Treaty of Fort Schyler which is why SCOTUS ruled the lands taxable in Sherrill.

You better take an English class. Your argument is less solid than Bill Clinton's was when he said it depends on what your interpretation of the word is is.

We could throw old land claim arguments back and forth for another twenty years but you already LOST that claim. Do you know what the word LOST means?

Oh, you did change your question asking me to tell you what it meant to telling me not to tell you.

Granted, a trust application is based on different arguments than the land claim was, but the trust lawsuit by CERA has Constitutional arguments that were not dismissed and we can agree or not.

Have a nice day. I'm off to the Renaissance Festival. \:\)

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#1357158 --- 08/04/12 02:26 PM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: Rich_Tallcot]
Butt Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/25/12
Posts: 883
Loc: Geneva
may I suggest that RICCI take it to the family lawyer,if they are speaking that is.

and be careful at the RF they might confuse you with a turkey leg


Edited by Butt Head (08/04/12 02:28 PM)

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#1357180 --- 08/04/12 06:12 PM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: Butt]
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 33047
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Butt Head

BOB McGILL


thanks for the laughs \:D \:D \:D
it is obvious you have not done your homework
_________________________
"OUR COUNTRY IS IN MOURNING, A SOLDIER DIED TODAY."

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#1357190 --- 08/04/12 07:39 PM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: bluezone]
Butt Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/25/12
Posts: 883
Loc: Geneva
the treaty is dated 1789 AIN't IT ?

JUST IN CASE 88 COMES BEFORE 89-----
[BLABERZONE/quote]because the State had not joined the union yet. Treaty of Albany February 25, 1789
-

Ratification of the Constitution by the State of New York; July 26, 1788. WE the Delegates of the People of the State of New York, duly elected

BLABERZONE, I am not doing any homework at all,I am just picking out where your posts don't match what your BLABERMOUTH is saying.

<--- ---<<<


so answer this, "New York State was a state of what ?"



New York was the 11th state in the USA; it became a state on July 26, 1788. ....
date of statehood, state bird (draw and write), state flower (draw and write), ...
http://www.enchantedlearning.com/usa/states/newyork

tell the world it is wrong,has been wrong and that YOU ARE RIGHT



Edited by Butt Head (08/04/12 08:08 PM)

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#1357224 --- 08/05/12 12:25 AM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: Butt]
Rich_Tallcot Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/19/03
Posts: 5581
Loc: Greeneville, TN
Originally Posted By: Butt Head
the treaty is dated 1789 AIN't IT ?

so answer this, "New York State was a state of what ?"

New York was the 11th state in the USA; it became a state on July 26, 1788. ....
date of statehood, state bird (draw and write), state flower (draw and write), ...
http://www.enchantedlearning.com/usa/states/newyork

tell the world it is wrong,has been wrong and that YOU ARE RIGHT

There ya go again, asking me to explain something to ya

An old rehash of the land claim that you know nothing about. Based on original documents the Colony was admitted as a State in March of 1789. It was not up to the Colony to admit itself dingdong. THAT would be as stupid as a county making a settlement with a tribe. You better call Judge McCurn and tell him his ruling was invalid. Be sure to tell him your IQ too. HAHahahahahah

At least you admit what your world consists of.


Edited by Rich_Tallcot (08/05/12 12:30 AM)

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#1357226 --- 08/05/12 12:38 AM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: Butt]
Butt Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/25/12
Posts: 883
Loc: Geneva
Originally Posted By: Butt Head
there is a problem with your interpretation, where it says" hold to themselves" means they keep that part and the state gets gets the rest.

DON'T TRY TO TELL ME WHAT IT MEANS----- keep posting this stuff because it will only destroy you in the end because you think people are stupid, but the majority are a whole lot smarter than you think !

<--- ---<<<

Cayuga Nation of New York v Cuomo U.S.Supreme Court
Plaintiffs allege that from time immemorial until the late eighteenth century the Cayuga Nation owned and occupied approximately three million acres of land in what is now New York State, a swath of land approximately fifty miles wide that runs from Lake Ontario to the Pennsylvania border.   This action involves 64,015 acres of that land, encompassing the Cayuga's “Original Reservation,” as set forth in a treaty with the State of New York, concluded on February 25, 1789 (“1789 Treaty”).   In the 1789 Treaty, the Cayugas ceded all of their lands to New York, except the lands designated as the “Original Reservation,” which consists of lands on the eastern and western shores of the northern end of Cayuga Lake.

BOB McGILL

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#1357229 --- 08/05/12 12:46 AM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: Rich_Tallcot]
Butt Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/25/12
Posts: 883
Loc: Geneva
Congress passed the first Indian Trade and Intercourse Act, known as the “Nonintercourse Act,” in 1790, pursuant to Congress's power under Article I, Section 8, clause 3 of the Constitution, which gives Congress the power “to regulate Commerce ․ with the Indian Tribes.”   Act of July 22, 1790, ch. 33, § 4, 1 Stat. 137, 138.   As the Supreme Court described it, “the Act bars sales of tribal land without the acquiescence of the Federal Government.”  Sherrill, 125 S.Ct. at 1484.   Successive versions of the Act have been continuously in force from that time to the present day.   See Rev. Stat. § 2116, 25 U.S.C. § 177.

On November 11, 1794, the Six Iroquois Nations 1 entered the Treaty of Canandaigua with the United States.   7 Stat. 44.   This treaty acknowledged the Original Reservation the Cayugas retained in the 1789 treaty with New York, and promised the Cayugas that the land would remain theirs until they “chose to sell the same to the people of the United States who have the right to purchase.”  Id. art.   II, 7 Stat. at 45.   On June 16, 1795, William Bradford, then Attorney General of the United States, issued an opinion concluding that, under the 1793 version of the Nonintercourse Act, no Indian land sale was valid, nor could the land claims of the Six Iroquois Nations be extinguished, except pursuant to a treaty entered into by the Federal Government.  See Cayuga Indian Nation v. Cuomo, 565 F.Supp. 1297, 1305 (N.D.N.Y.1983) (“Cayuga I ”).

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#1357235 --- 08/05/12 01:59 AM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: Butt]
Rich_Tallcot Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/19/03
Posts: 5581
Loc: Greeneville, TN
Your copy and paste of old tribal land claim arguments do not change the fact that you LOST. As a ward, maybe you should file a complaint with your guardian.

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#1357239 --- 08/05/12 02:28 AM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes *DELETED* [Re: Rich_Tallcot]
Butt Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/25/12
Posts: 883
Loc: Geneva
Post deleted by FL1 Mod 2


Edited by Butt Head (08/05/12 02:29 AM)

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#1357244 --- 08/05/12 04:19 AM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: Butt]
Rich_Tallcot Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/19/03
Posts: 5581
Loc: Greeneville, TN
I knew ya could not walk and chew gum at the same time. You cannot even open more than one thread at the same time and paste your pre-typed reply in the correct thread. Then you edit that reply and still do not catch it. You are definitely in way over your head.

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#1357252 --- 08/05/12 10:23 AM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: Rich_Tallcot]
Butt Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/25/12
Posts: 883
Loc: Geneva
do you have windows 7 ?

I don't know anyone with a new laptop and windows 7 that does not have problems

besides you are WAAAAAAAAAAAAAY off I just added are you in heat

because I can see the smoke from here <--- ---<<<<

.


Edited by Butt Head (08/05/12 10:24 AM)

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#1357266 --- 08/05/12 01:52 PM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: Butt]
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 33047
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Butt Head
Congress passed the first Indian Trade and Intercourse Act...


Congress passed the Indian claims commission

how did the cayuga 'tribe' do with the ICC?

Congress also allowed all tribal members US citizenship in 1924

all 'treaties' were void after that point
_________________________
"OUR COUNTRY IS IN MOURNING, A SOLDIER DIED TODAY."

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#1357287 --- 08/05/12 03:23 PM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: Butt]
Rich_Tallcot Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/19/03
Posts: 5581
Loc: Greeneville, TN
Originally Posted By: Butt Head
I don't know anyone under 13 years of age that does not have problems

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#1357453 --- 08/06/12 10:45 PM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: Butt]
Butt Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/25/12
Posts: 883
Loc: Geneva
[quote=Butt Head]do you have windows 7 ?

I don't know anyone with a new laptop and windows 7 that does not have problems {quote]


editted by rich tallcot---originally posted by Butt Head--I don't know anyone under 13 years of age that does not have problems

This is a classic example of UCE tactics. Change a few words here and there, leave out this part and that part. What UCE doesn't realize is that the people who really count know UCE is lying and laugh at them in private.

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#1358088 --- 08/10/12 01:27 PM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: Butt]
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 33047
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Butt Head
[quote=Butt Head]do you have windows 7 ?

I don't know anyone with a new laptop and windows 7 that does not have problems {quote]


editted by rich tallcot---originally posted by Butt Head--I don't know anyone under 13 years of age that does not have problems

This is a classic example of UCE tactics. Change a few words here and there, leave out this part and that part. What UCE doesn't realize is that the people who really count know UCE is lying and laugh at them in private.



is the 'quote' function too difficult to use?
_________________________
"OUR COUNTRY IS IN MOURNING, A SOLDIER DIED TODAY."

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#1358090 --- 08/10/12 01:39 PM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: Teonan]
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 33047
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Teonan


Good. Now you can educate Bz to that reality.


Originally Posted By: Teonan

Ralph Nader fights for healthcare, consumer safety, our environment, ethics, education, and economic & social equality.


equality....hum

seems you believe otherwise
_________________________
"OUR COUNTRY IS IN MOURNING, A SOLDIER DIED TODAY."

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#1358712 --- 08/14/12 01:29 PM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: Rich_Tallcot]
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 33047
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
And you STILL cannot site ANY relevant clause in the treaty that you never read.



teonan has yet to post one
_________________________
"OUR COUNTRY IS IN MOURNING, A SOLDIER DIED TODAY."

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