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#1342607 - 05/04/12 03:17 PM
Re: Trayvon
[Re: Rich_Tallcot]
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VM Smith
Diamond Member
Registered: 11/28/05
Posts: 34284
Loc: Reality
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Good vid, TY.
Some will say that Z shouldn't have been tailing M,and that he was profiling on the basis of color. He probably was.
But stereotyping is generalizing is profiling. We all do it. Every sane person, including cops. If we didn't do it, we'd go crazy trying to handle the constant chaos of information that is life.
It was Z's task to try to identify possible threats to the neighborhood.
Since blacks, 13% of total population, commit about 50% of all violent crimes, and since young blacks are convicted of murder at almost 10 times the rate of their peers, he was naturally interested in what M was up to; the civic duty to his neighbors which had accepted required that.
Both blacks ,and other groups, don't like to talk about those and similar facts, for different, and for some of the same, reasons, but we can't have an honest or worthwhile discussion of race in America without facing them.
Many groups, presently and throughout history, have been victims of past oppression, or targets of present racial discrimination and friction, but not all of those groups have been so violent.
Many blacks don't want to be part of the white middle class; that even shows symbolically in the very names they often choose. Many whites don't want a homogenous society. I don't say any of this is a good thing, but it has to be true. Why else would there still be segregated neighborhoods 50 yrs after legally segregated housing ended everywhere, and in many places well before that?
I view it as a fact. I don't have a clue as to any possibly quick and effective, or easy, solution, because it may involve trying to change something that may be innate to real human life, or even inherent in human nature.
But that doesn't mean I'm going to ignore the problem, in hopes it will go away. It won't.
Even if it can't be truly solved, even if it is part and parcel with being human, it must at least be finessed, until race goes away, which I think will be the eventual evolution. And solution.
I think about it quite a bit, being blond. Apparently, we haven't been around for that many years. Research shows that people with blond hair only became distinctly numerous in Europe abt 10-11,000 yrs ago, and it's theorized that we won't be around forever, and not that long, even.
Same thing will probably be true of white people in general; there'll be just brown.
Don't wait up for the end of race, though.
_________________________
The evils of tyranny are rarely seen but by him who resists it.
John Hay (1872)
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#1343710 - 05/10/12 12:16 PM
Re: Trayvon
[Re: VM Smith]
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Cuzi Sedso
Senior Member
Registered: 11/06/11
Posts: 1428
Loc: NY
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Yeah, a good example of the hype that "it's all Martin's fault."
Sure, there was a lot of incendiary rhetoric from the Panthers. Spike Lee's comments were completely uncalled for (but I've heard he reached a generous financial settlement with the elderly couple mentioned in this vid). Several people actually made the outrageous claim that Martin's case was somehow comparable to the horrific death of Emmett Till. But I only saw Sharpton calling for Zimmerman's arrest and having the court and a jury sort it out. And claiming that Obama was inciting a race riot by saying that the kid (he was 17 after all) might resemble his son if he had one, is just simply ridiculous.
But stereotyping is generalizing is profiling. We all do it. Every sane person, including cops. If we didn't do it, we'd go crazy trying to handle the constant chaos of information that is life.
Agreed. It can be argued, therefore, that it was Martin's way of identifying a potential threat, Zimmerman, that was following him, first in a vehicle and then on foot, as he was walking to his father's house.
It was Z's task to try to identify possible threats to the neighborhood.
Since blacks, 13% of total population, commit about 50% of all violent crimes, and since young blacks are convicted of murder at almost 10 times the rate of their peers...
An interesting but irrelevant factoid since it doesn't describe the demographics of the Sanford community. Applying such statistics to every encounter with a stranger, regardless of context, is paranoiac.
he was naturally interested in what M was up to; the civic duty to his neighbors which [he] had accepted required that.
Many groups, presently and throughout history, have been victims of past oppression, or targets of present racial discrimination and friction, but not all of those groups have been so violent.
Many blacks don't want to be part of the white middle class; that even shows symbolically in the very names they often choose.
Many whites don't want a homogenous society. I don't say any of this is a good thing, but it has to be true. Why else would there still be segregated neighborhoods 50 yrs after legally segregated housing ended everywhere, and in many places well before that?
Even if it can't be truly solved, even if it is part and parcel with being human, it must at least be finessed, until race goes away, which I think will be the eventual evolution. And solution.
I think about it quite a bit, being blond. Apparently, we haven't been around for that many years. Research shows that people with blond hair only became distinctly numerous in Europe abt 10-11,000 yrs ago, and it's theorized that we won't be around forever, and not that long, even.
Same thing will probably be true of white people in general; there'll be just brown.
Or as Michener (not Plato) suggested, a "Golden Race." But don't hold your breath on an end to violence -- it's part of our animal nature.
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#1343795 - 05/10/12 06:03 PM
Re: Trayvon
[Re: Cuzi Sedso]
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Rich_Tallcot
Senior Member
Registered: 01/19/03
Posts: 3747
Loc: Union Springs, New York
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Academics who insist that slavery is an exclusively Black racial condition forget or deliberately omit the fact that the word slave originally was a reference to Whites of East European origin - "Slavs."
There were even black slave-holders. Down South, there's a lot of poverty, and so, it came to pass that in order to survive and pay off debt, you become an indentured servant.
It is true about the Slavs. The Vikings used to make regular raids into various places and carry off the inhabitants for the slave market in Muslim countries. The Moors dealt in slave trading all the time from Spain.
http://www.revisionisthistory.org/forgottenslaves.html
The indentured servants who served a tidy little period of 4 to 7 years polishing the master's silver and china and then taking their place in colonial high society, were a minuscule fraction of the great unsung hundreds of thousands of White slaves who were worked to death in this country from the early l7th century onward.
Up to one-half of all the arrivals in the American colonies were Whites slaves and they were America's first slaves. These Whites were slaves for life, long before Blacks ever were. This slavery was even hereditary. White children born to White slaves were enslaved too.
Whites were auctioned on the block with children sold and separated from their parents and wives sold and separated from their husbands. Free Black property owners strutted the streets of northern and southern American cities while White slaves were worked to death in the sugar mills of Barbados and Jamaica and the plantations of Virginia.
The Establishment has created the misnomer of "indentured servitude" to explain away and minimize the fact of White slavery. But bound Whites in early America called themselves slaves. Nine-tenths of the White slavery in America was conducted without indentures of any kind but according to the so-called "custom of the country," as it was known, which was lifetime slavery administered by the White slave merchants themselves.
In George Sandys laws for Virginia, Whites were enslaved "forever." The service of Whites bound to Berkeley's Hundred was deemed "perpetual." These accounts have been policed out of the much touted "standard reference works" such as Abbott Emerson Smith's laughable whitewash, Colonists in Bondage.
I challenge any researcher to study 17th century colonial America, sifting the documents, the jargon and the statutes on both sides of the Atlantic and one will discover that White slavery was a far more extensive operation than Black enslavement. It is when we come to the 18th century that one begins to encounter more "servitude" on the basis of a contract of indenture. But even in that period there was kidnapping of Anglo-Saxons into slavery as well as convict slavery.
In 1855, Frederic Law Olmsted, the landscape architect who designed New York's Central Park, was in Alabama on a pleasure trip and saw bales of cotton being thrown from a considerable height into a cargo ship's hold. The men tossing the bales somewhat recklessly into the hold were Negroes, the men in the hold were Irish.
Before British slavers traveled to Africa's western coast to buy Black slaves from African chieftains, they sold their own White working class kindred ("the surplus poor" as they were known) from the streets and towns of England, into slavery. Tens of thousands of these White slaves were kidnapped children. In fact the very origin of the word kidnapped is kid-nabbed, the stealing of White children for enslavement.
According to the English Dictionary of the Underworld, under the heading kidnapper is the following definition: "A stealer of human beings, esp. of children; originally for exportation to the plantations of North America."
http://www.electricscotland.com/history/other/white_slavery.htm
There were even black slave-holders. Down South, there's a lot of poverty, and so, it came to pass that in order to survive and pay off debt, you become an indentured servant.
It is true about the Slavs. The Vikings used to make regular raids into various places and carry off the inhabitants for the slave market in Muslim countries. The Moors dealt in slave trading all the time from Spain.
The eighth to the eleventh centuries proved to be very profitable for Rouen France. Rouen was the transfer point of Irish and Flemish slaves to the Arabian nations. The early centuries AD the Scottish were known as Irish. William Phillips on page 63 states that the major component of slave trade in the eleventh century were the Vikings. They spirited many 'Irish' to Spain, Scandinavia and Russia. Legends have it; some 'Irish' may have been taken as far as Constantinople.
Ruth Mazo Karras wrote in her book, "SLAVERY AND SOCIETY IN MEDEIVEL SCANDINAVIA" pg. 49; Norwegian Vikings made slave raids not only against the Irish and Scots (who were often called Irish in Norse sources) but also against Norse settlers in Ireland or Scottish Isles or even in Norway itself…slave trading was a major commercial activity of the Viking Age. The children of the White slaves in Iceland were routinely murdered en masse. (Karras pg 52)
According to these resources as well as many more, the Scots-Irish have been enslaved longer than any other race in the world's history. Most governments do not teach White Slavery in their World History classes. Children of modern times are only taught about the African slave trade. The Scots do not need to be taught because they are very aware of the atrocities upon an enslaved race. Most importantly, we have survived to become one to the largest races on Earth!!!
It's all Obama's fault.
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#1343822 - 05/10/12 08:00 PM
Re: Trayvon
[Re: Rich_Tallcot]
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Cuzi Sedso
Senior Member
Registered: 11/06/11
Posts: 1428
Loc: NY
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C'mon... you're not going to seriously compare black slavery in America with East European Slavs, Vikings in the Middle Ages, and indentured servitude (after which you were free) etc.
We know that barbaric conditions have existed throughout history. I thought we were talking about the black experience in America for, say, the last three hundred years. How many Slavs were sold here in the 17th, 18th or 19th centuries? How many indentured servants were lynched in the 19th and 20th centuries? Or what was the effect of Vikings in those centuries on American history and sociology?
There's no need to throw up a smoke screen for Smitty... he'll come up with some outlandish counter all on his own.
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#1343826 - 05/10/12 09:15 PM
Re: Trayvon
[Re: Cuzi Sedso]
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VM Smith
Diamond Member
Registered: 11/28/05
Posts: 34284
Loc: Reality
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Originally Posted By: VM Smith
Many whites don't want a homogenous society. I don't say any of this is a good thing, but it has to be true. Why else would there still be segregated neighborhoods 50 yrs after legally segregated housing ended everywhere, and in many places well before that?
I believe you answered your own question -- many whites don't want a homogeneous society.
It was my intent to answer that rhetorical question, Captain Obvious.
Originally Posted By: VM Smith
Many blacks don't want to be part of the white middle class; that even shows symbolically in the very names they often choose.
As they used to say some years ago, "it's a Black thang, you wouldn't understand."
They said it then, but you're the one saying it now. Just because I state a fact doesn't mean I don't understand that fact. I'm not surprised that you make that leap, though.
Originally Posted By: VM Smith
Since blacks, 13% of total population, commit about 50% of all violent crimes, and since young blacks are convicted of murder at almost 10 times the rate of their peers...
An interesting but irrelevant factoid since it doesn't describe the demographics of the Sanford community. Applying such statistics to every encounter with a stranger, regardless of context, is paranoiac.
It's a very relevant fact. What's irrelevant is what Sanford's demographic makeup is. The two people, members of groups with radically different criminal profiles, would be members of those groups even if they weren't in Sanford, but on Pluto.
And claiming that Obama was inciting a race riot by saying that the kid (he was 17 after all) might resemble his son if he had one, is just simply ridiculous.
If a white kid had been killed by a black, would he have said that "The kid was just like mine would have been, if I had a son..I've got white blood."? Has he ever, as President, publicly compared any crime victim to what one of his own family might look like? If so, why? What's the motivation, in any case?
Why did he have to inject race into it? Why did he have to butt in at all, before Z was even charged, as I recall?
Originally Posted By: VM Smith
But stereotyping is generalizing is profiling. We all do it. Every sane person, including cops. If we didn't do it, we'd go crazy trying to handle the constant chaos of information that is life.
Agreed. It can be argued, therefore, that it was Martin's way of identifying a potential threat, Zimmerman, that was following him, first in a vehicle and then on foot, as he was walking to his father's house
Sure, it can be argued that it's true on both sides, although only one of them, the younger, much bigger one, assaulted the other guy and started pounding his head on the concrete. That's the behavior that you're sticking up for.
_________________________
The evils of tyranny are rarely seen but by him who resists it.
John Hay (1872)
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#1343841 - 05/10/12 11:34 PM
Re: Trayvon
[Re: VM Smith]
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Cuzi Sedso
Senior Member
Registered: 11/06/11
Posts: 1428
Loc: NY
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Since blacks, 13% of total population, commit about 50% of all violent crimes, and since young blacks are convicted of murder at almost 10 times the rate of their peers...
An interesting but irrelevant factoid since it doesn't describe the demographics of the Sanford community. Applying such statistics to every encounter with a stranger, regardless of context, is paranoiac.
It's a very relevant fact. What's irrelevant is what Sanford's demographic makeup is. The two people, members of groups with radically different criminal profiles, would be members of those groups even if they weren't in Sanford, but on Pluto.
Sure, it can be argued that it's true on both sides, although only one of them, the younger, much bigger one, assaulted the other guy and started pounding his head on the concrete. That's the behavior that you're sticking up for.
Edited by Cuzi Sedso (05/10/12 11:51 PM)
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#1343844 - 05/11/12 12:00 AM
Re: Trayvon
[Re: Cuzi Sedso]
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Rascal
Gold Member
Registered: 06/05/00
Posts: 16944
Loc: Brewerton, NY, USA
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I was always brought up that blacks would commit crimres with guns but that hispanics would use knives.
It must be true.
And now Obama can have a beer party with both races.
And distract us from the real problrm.
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#1343884 - 05/11/12 08:54 AM
Re: Trayvon
[Re: Ayuveda]
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bluezone
Diamond Member
Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 26674
Loc: USA
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The prospects of privately-owned militias defending interest in a free-market 'Utopia' here is a nightmare.
No Thanks.
The Perfect Free Market: Somalia
By Bob Cavnar
July 3, 2010
I've often wondered if there is an example of unrestrained free markets in the world that we could look to for an idea of exactly what it would look like. Certainly, the early days of our nation give an inkling, but we have always had a relatively strong central government, and an historic culture of common purpose. But that is not what free market libertarians advocate; they advocate every one for themselves; profit built into every activity including healthcare, utilities, mail delivery, even defense. So. Where can we seek an example of unrestrained free markets and their effects?
I found the answer Thursday while driving from Boston to Vermont for the 4th of July holiday. We were listening to an interview on Fresh Air, a great NPR program, with guest Jeffrey Gettleman, bureau chief for the New York Times in East Africa. Gettleman was talking about how African nations have fallen into anarchy, where governments have completely collapsed. His prime example was Somalia, where there hasn't been a central government for over 20 years. A quagmire of warlords, religious fanatics, and criminals, he described Somalia as "the most dangerous place in the world" with no central government, no services, no electricity, no law enforcement, no green zone for safety. He described the country as a culture based on individual trust bought with money. Personal relationships are key, and power is kept through violence and wealth.
Gettleman says that when you arrive at the airport in Mogadishu, you fill out a form with your name, address, and caliber of weapon you carry. For electricity, neighbors must band together to buy a generator, wire it to their homes, fuel it, and then defend it from being stolen. Businessmen sell their own stamps for private mail delivery. There is no central government, no law enforcement, no public utilities. The streets are ruled by gangs, and territory is protected with bullets. Everyone freely exercises their right to bear arms. Every day, all day. It is the perfect free market, a Libertarian's or Tea Partier's Utopia. And, it is hopeless
when will apply all your efforts to save the people of somalia?
unless you are saying they do not count as it was not a 'zimmerman' individual that is part if it
we are still waiting for you to tell us where utopia is?
_________________________
"OUR COUNTRY IS IN MOURNING, A SOLDIER DIED TODAY."
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#1343916 - 05/11/12 10:09 AM
Re: Trayvon
[Re: Ayuveda]
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ProAct
Senior Member
Registered: 07/19/10
Posts: 1191
Loc: New York State, Seneca County
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Zimmerman to Somalia to Utopia.
Haven't heard too much about any of them lately.
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#1343968 - 05/11/12 03:40 PM
Re: Trayvon
[Re: Cuzi Sedso]
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Frisco kid
Member
Registered: 12/25/11
Posts: 323
Loc: NY
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"An interesting but irrelevant factoid since it doesn't describe the demographics of the Sanford community. Applying such statistics to every encounter with a stranger, regardless of context, is paranoiac. "
Do you really know the demographics of the Sanford community?. I do. I have spoken daily on the phone for over a year now with a girl I graduated high school with in 1975 who has lived in Sanford for 22 years now. It is not segregated at all there are white neighborhoods and black neighborhoods that a white person really doesn't want to enter no matter what time of day. All in a City of about 52,000 people. The schools are a disaster the dropout rate is staggering. Central Florida has the highest percent of homeless people in the Nation. Unemployment rates are off the charts. She owns a home in a gated type community but go 2 miles away you may as well be in Watts in LA. And all the Al Sharptons of the World did was stir the race pot up even more totally unnecessarily.
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