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#1294571 --- 08/25/11 06:39 PM Re: Frack legislation [Re: pixie]
Harleybob5 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/15/11
Posts: 726
Loc: Wallonia Freedom Fighter
Originally Posted By: pixie


no different then you calling me pixie girl .
Interesting!
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#1294572 --- 08/25/11 06:47 PM Re: Frack legislation [Re: pixie]
Harleybob5 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/15/11
Posts: 726
Loc: Wallonia Freedom Fighter
Originally Posted By: pixie
Originally Posted By: wooden nickel
I just picked up my FLT. One of the headlines on pg. 1 says the shale in this area contains 40 times more gas than previously thought.
I have yet to decide wether I do or do not agree with fracking in this area. I do have to wonder, however; if the "experts" were so far off on their estimates of recoverable gas, what is the possibility they could also be way off on their claims that fracking is relatively safe?


.
there now talking up to 240,000 wells in NY and 125,000 in PA wow thats a lot of water used up , 15 million gallons over three fracks including what is re used , is 3600 trillion gallons of fresh water lost down the hole in NY alone .
Wow! That should drive down the price of natural gas. And put people back to work and with a little luck we could sell the gas to the Chinese.
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#1294580 --- 08/25/11 07:12 PM Re: Frack legislation [Re: Harleybob5]
brainman Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/04/11
Posts: 715
Loc: NY
Originally Posted By: Harleybob5
Originally Posted By: pixie
Originally Posted By: wooden nickel
I just picked up my FLT. One of the headlines on pg. 1 says the shale in this area contains 40 times more gas than previously thought.
I have yet to decide wether I do or do not agree with fracking in this area. I do have to wonder, however; if the "experts" were so far off on their estimates of recoverable gas, what is the possibility they could also be way off on their claims that fracking is relatively safe?





.
there now talking up to 240,000 wells in NY and 125,000 in PA wow thats a lot of water used up , 15 million gallons over three fracks including what is re used , is 3600 trillion gallons of fresh water lost down the hole in NY alone .
Wow! That should drive down the price of natural gas. And put people back to work and with a little luck we could sell the gas to the Chinese.




People like Pixie and Kyle don't care about jobs or economic development. They only care about themselves in their own self centered world. To them tourism is the answer with low paying jobs and a seasonal economy.


Edited by brainman (08/25/11 07:13 PM)
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#1294582 --- 08/25/11 07:19 PM Re: Frack legislation [Re: brainman]
Ayuveda Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/05/10
Posts: 6367
Loc: Imagine
Seems like they care about preserving the quality of our Finger Lakes waters in a world of diminishing fresh water sources.
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#1294585 --- 08/25/11 07:47 PM Re: Frack legislation [Re: Ayuveda]
Harleybob5 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/15/11
Posts: 726
Loc: Wallonia Freedom Fighter
Originally Posted By: Ayuveda
Seems like they care about preserving the quality of our Finger Lakes waters in a world of diminishing fresh water sources.
N -1
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#1294590 --- 08/25/11 08:12 PM Re: Frack legislation [Re: pixie]
VM Smith Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 11/28/05
Posts: 38160
Loc: Ship of Fools
Originally Posted By: pixie
Originally Posted By: VM Smith
If that installation makes sense, why do the rulers have to force people to subsidize it at over 3 times the market price per kw? That implies that to make it pay its own way, they'd have to charge 4 times the market price. If they did that, it wouldn't be built, because no one (except someone spending someone else's money) would be crazy enough to pay that much for power. Why not just use a cheaper source of power, so they don't have to seize the difference from citizens?

Quote:
It will receive a feed-in tariff of 0.25 euros/kWh, plus a market price of approximately 0.08 euros/kWh.


I just don't get this enviro-socialism, unless the goal is to redistribute people's money to a powerful, well connected group of investors running an enviro-hustle, while at the same time making those actually being fleeced feel greenly virtuous, and that they are "making a difference". Nah...couldn't be...people aren't that greedy, or that stupid...


I found the going rate for electricty in that area in 2009 is 37.24 usa cents per kw so its not over priced maybe under priced. sorry could not find a 2011 price , 2009 was the best I could do .


Etrion is an independent power producer. They sell to utilities. The .08 Euro/kwh is the wholesale price they receive from a utility.

Without the handout, amounting to 3 times the amount the electricity could be sold for, the market price would not be sufficient to justify that method of generation. IOW, nobody would be dumb enough to use that method unless they can force other people to help pay the exhorbitant cost.
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#1294599 --- 08/25/11 08:42 PM Re: Frack legislation [Re: Ayuveda]
brainman Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/04/11
Posts: 715
Loc: NY
Originally Posted By: Ayuveda
Seems like they care about preserving the quality of our Finger Lakes waters in a world of diminishing fresh water sources.




I understand that part but you can't just slam the barn door shut either. This state needs jobs and revenue. There's no reason why both goals can't be acheived.
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#1294603 --- 08/25/11 08:57 PM Re: Frack legislation [Re: brainman]
Ayuveda Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/05/10
Posts: 6367
Loc: Imagine
Wrong. When it come to hydraulic fracturing in our Finger Lakes area I can indeed "slam the barn door shut".

Right off it's hinges.
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#1294605 --- 08/25/11 09:02 PM Re: Frack legislation [Re: Ayuveda]
brainman Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/04/11
Posts: 715
Loc: NY
Originally Posted By: Ayuveda
Wrong. When it come to hydraulic fracturing in our Finger Lakes area I can indeed "slam the barn door shut".

Right off it's hinges.



That's why this state is in the shape it is in. To many people like you.
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#1294606 --- 08/25/11 09:04 PM Re: Frack legislation [Re: Ayuveda]
Harleybob5 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/15/11
Posts: 726
Loc: Wallonia Freedom Fighter
Originally Posted By: Ayuveda
Wrong. When it come to hydraulic fracturing in our Finger Lakes area I can indeed "slam the barn door shut".

Right off it's hinges.
Ahahahahaha... when it come to money and jobs it trumps your wrong and the barn door!
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#1294614 --- 08/25/11 09:37 PM Re: Frack legislation [Re: Harleybob5]
Ayuveda Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/05/10
Posts: 6367
Loc: Imagine
Dryden, Town of Ithaca, Town of Ulysses. Each have enacted bans on fracking. Since when don't you support grass roots activism in action.
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#1294616 --- 08/25/11 09:58 PM Re: Frack legislation [Re: Ayuveda]
brainman Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/04/11
Posts: 715
Loc: NY
Originally Posted By: Ayuveda
Dryden, Town of Ithaca, Town of Ulysses. Each have enacted bans on fracking. Since when don't you support grass roots activism in action.



Fracking bans aren't worth the paper they are wrote on. State law supercedes any local law. Local towns can't regulate drilling. They can only regulate things such as road use.
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#1294620 --- 08/25/11 10:27 PM Re: Frack legislation [Re: brainman]
Ayuveda Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/05/10
Posts: 6367
Loc: Imagine
Originally Posted By: brainman
Originally Posted By: Ayuveda
Dryden, Town of Ithaca, Town of Ulysses. Each have enacted bans on fracking. Since when don't you support grass roots activism in action.



Fracking bans aren't worth the paper they are wrote on. State law supercedes any local law. Local towns can't regulate drilling. They can only regulate things such as road use.



"o-n-l-y regulate road use"?

Sounds like a a pretty decent weapon in the war against fracking.
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#1294641 --- 08/26/11 06:18 AM Re: Frack legislation [Re: Ayuveda]
brainman Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/04/11
Posts: 715
Loc: NY
Originally Posted By: Ayuveda
Originally Posted By: brainman
Originally Posted By: Ayuveda
Dryden, Town of Ithaca, Town of Ulysses. Each have enacted bans on fracking. Since when don't you support grass roots activism in action.



Fracking bans aren't worth the paper they are wrote on. State law supercedes any local law. Local towns can't regulate drilling. They can only regulate things such as road use.



"o-n-l-y regulate road use"?

Sounds like a a pretty decent weapon in the war against fracking.





That's regulate not ban. You can require them to fix the road after they use it which already do anyway. You can require them to fix any other damage which they already do now. The gas drilling is going to happen its just a matter of time.
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#1294643 --- 08/26/11 06:50 AM Re: Frack legislation [Re: brainman]
Ayuveda Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/05/10
Posts: 6367
Loc: Imagine
Originally Posted By: brainman
Originally Posted By: Ayuveda
Originally Posted By: brainman
Originally Posted By: Ayuveda
Dryden, Town of Ithaca, Town of Ulysses. Each have enacted bans on fracking. Since when don't you support grass roots activism in action.



Fracking bans aren't worth the paper they are wrote on. State law supercedes any local law. Local towns can't regulate drilling. They can only regulate things such as road use.



"o-n-l-y regulate road use"?

Sounds like a a pretty decent weapon in the war against fracking.





That's regulate not ban. You can require them to fix the road after they use it which already do anyway. You can require them to fix any other damage which they already do now. The gas drilling is going to happen its just a matter of time.




No fracking in the Town of Ulysses.

http://a22.video2.blip.tv/12390009173174...=3166&bri=145.4
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#1294644 --- 08/26/11 06:54 AM Re: Frack legislation [Re: VM Smith]
pixie Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/24/07
Posts: 1912
Loc: Romulus
Originally Posted By: VM Smith
Originally Posted By: pixie
Originally Posted By: VM Smith
If that installation makes sense, why do the rulers have to force people to subsidize it at over 3 times the market price per kw? That implies that to make it pay its own way, they'd have to charge 4 times the market price. If they did that, it wouldn't be built, because no one (except someone spending someone else's money) would be crazy enough to pay that much for power. Why not just use a cheaper source of power, so they don't have to seize the difference from citizens?

Quote:
It will receive a feed-in tariff of 0.25 euros/kWh, plus a market price of approximately 0.08 euros/kWh.


I just don't get this enviro-socialism, unless the goal is to redistribute people's money to a powerful, well connected group of investors running an enviro-hustle, while at the same time making those actually being fleeced feel greenly virtuous, and that they are "making a difference". Nah...couldn't be...people aren't that greedy, or that stupid...


I found the going rate for electricty in that area in 2009 is 37.24 usa cents per kw so its not over priced maybe under priced. sorry could not find a 2011 price , 2009 was the best I could do .


Etrion is an independent power producer. They sell to utilities. The .08 Euro/kwh is the wholesale price they receive from a utility.

Without the handout, amounting to 3 times the amount the electricity could be sold for, the market price would not be sufficient to justify that method of generation. IOW, nobody would be dumb enough to use that method unless they can force other people to help pay the exhorbitant cost.


True but at what point do you just continue to burn oil or coal, without renewable energy our way of life is limited. we do not have a endless supply of oil and our world can not take continued burning due to carbon. It takes a long time to replace all our existing power plants oil. gas , and coal burning as well as nuke. almost all types of large plants such as ethanol in the usa receive huge grants so why not solar . at least with solar once they are set up other then minimal maintenance they produce very low cost electrical almost pollution free. The only pollution is in the manufacture which is not that big. one positive they are almost 100 percent recyclable .
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#1294649 --- 08/26/11 07:41 AM Re: Frack legislation [Re: pixie]
brainman Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/04/11
Posts: 715
Loc: NY
Originally Posted By: pixie
Originally Posted By: VM Smith
Originally Posted By: pixie
Originally Posted By: VM Smith
If that installation makes sense, why do the rulers have to force people to subsidize it at over 3 times the market price per kw? That implies that to make it pay its own way, they'd have to charge 4 times the market price. If they did that, it wouldn't be built, because no one (except someone spending someone else's money) would be crazy enough to pay that much for power. Why not just use a cheaper source of power, so they don't have to seize the difference from citizens?

Quote:
It will receive a feed-in tariff of 0.25 euros/kWh, plus a market price of approximately 0.08 euros/kWh.


I just don't get this enviro-socialism, unless the goal is to redistribute people's money to a powerful, well connected group of investors running an enviro-hustle, while at the same time making those actually being fleeced feel greenly virtuous, and that they are "making a difference". Nah...couldn't be...people aren't that greedy, or that stupid...


I found the going rate for electricty in that area in 2009 is 37.24 usa cents per kw so its not over priced maybe under priced. sorry could not find a 2011 price , 2009 was the best I could do .


Etrion is an independent power producer. They sell to utilities. The .08 Euro/kwh is the wholesale price they receive from a utility.

Without the handout, amounting to 3 times the amount the electricity could be sold for, the market price would not be sufficient to justify that method of generation. IOW, nobody would be dumb enough to use that method unless they can force other people to help pay the exhorbitant cost.


True but at what point do you just continue to burn oil or coal, without renewable energy our way of life is limited. we do not have a endless supply of oil and our world can not take continued burning due to carbon. It takes a long time to replace all our existing power plants oil. gas , and coal burning as well as nuke. almost all types of large plants such as ethanol in the usa receive huge grants so why not solar . at least with solar once they are set up other then minimal maintenance they produce very low cost electrical almost pollution free. The only pollution is in the manufacture which is not that big. one positive they are almost 100 percent recyclable .



Thats why you drill for gas. There's a very large supply. It will also put Americans back to work plus bring in much needed revenue for the states. Its funny how you talk out of both sides of your mouth.
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#1294654 --- 08/26/11 08:05 AM Re: Frack legislation [Re: brainman]
Ayuveda Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/05/10
Posts: 6367
Loc: Imagine
"There's a very large supply."

About 80% LESS than previous estimates it seems.

http://www.businessinsider.com/wow-us-slashes-marcellus-shale-gas-estimate-by-80-2011-8
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#1294655 --- 08/26/11 08:17 AM Re: Frack legislation [Re: Ayuveda]
brainman Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/04/11
Posts: 715
Loc: NY
Originally Posted By: Ayuveda
"There's a very large supply."

About 80% LESS than previous estimates it seems.

http://www.businessinsider.com/wow-us-slashes-marcellus-shale-gas-estimate-by-80-2011-8




Actually much much more.




Home News Local .Shale contains 40 times more gas in new estimate


Shale contains 40 times more gas in new estimate By JIM MILLER jmiller@fltimes.com Finger Lakes Times | 0 comments

The Marcellus Shale may contain about 40 times more recoverable natural gas than previously thought, the U.S. Geological Survey announced Tuesday.

In 2002, the USGS estimated the shale formation contained 2 trillion cubic feet of natural gas. Now, it thinks there are 84 trillion cubic feet.


In addition, the agency upped its estimate of recoverable natural gas liquids from 10 million to 3.4 billion barrels.

For an industry eager to expand, the new estimates are welcome news.

“I think the numbers start to quantify and sort of validate the perception that the industry has on the magnitude of this resource and the economic opportunity,” said John Holko, secretary of the board for the Independent Oil and Gas Association of New York.

The new estimates represent increases of 4,100 percent and 33,900 percent, respectively, over the previous numbers.

Estimates do vary, however. The U.S. Department of Energy had earlier put the amount of recoverable gas at 410 trillion cubic tons — 80 percent more than the new USGS estimate.

The Finger Lakes region sits on the fringe of the vast Marcellus Shale formation, which lies beneath Kentucky, Maryland, New York, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Tennessee, Virginia and West Virginia. Much of the gas can be extracted only through a controversial drilling method called hydraulic fracturing, or hydrofracking, a procedure New York state is currently reviewing.

“[The Marcellus Shale] gets much thinner in this area, so [the new estimate] has, I’m sure, much more impact to Pennsylvania and the Southern Tier,” said Phil Cianciotto, president of the Seneca Lake Pure Waters Association.

The Seneca Lake association supports environmentally responsible drilling, but has expressed concerns about hydrofracking. The increased gas estimates don’t change that.

“The amount of gas is neither here nor there,” Cianciotto said. “It’s more the process to extract the gas.”

Water contamination and other environmental woes are concerns related to hydrofracking, he said.

In a press release, the USGS attributed its increased estimates to new geological information and engineering data.

“Since the 1930s, almost every well-drilling through the Marcellus found noticeable quantities of natural gas,” the USGS said. “However, in late 2004, the Marcellus was recognized as a potential reservoir rock, instead of just a regional rock source, meaning that the gas could be produced from it instead of just being a source for the gas.”

Holko said the new estimates reflect both data from drilling that’s already taken place and the new technology now in use, including horizontal drilling.

Before wells are drilled, the amount of gas is always a guess. Now that drilling has started, seeing the estimates increase instead of drop is encouraging for the industry, Holko said.

The USGS worked with the Pennsylvania Geological Survey, the West Virginia Geological and Economic Survey, the Ohio Geological Survey, academics and gas industry representatives to develop an improved understanding of the Marcellus Shale.

The resulting numbers represent an average. Estimates of recoverable natural gas ranged from 43 trillion to 144.1 trillion cubic feet. Estimates of recoverable natural gas liquids ranged from 1.6 billion to 6.2 billion barrels.

The IOGA did not work with the USGS on the estimates.

“They probably shied away a little bit from New York because, as you know, there’s not much happening in New York,” Holko said.

Holko and other industry advocates hope to see that change.

“The recovery of this resource is no way indicative of some ability to jeopardize environmental safety,” he said. “This is all done with all kinds of environmental oversight, so I think it’s a very good opportunity for everyone in the Appalachian Basin. And remember, [the Marcellus Shale] is just one of the formations down there.”


Edited by brainman (08/26/11 08:21 AM)
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#1294660 --- 08/26/11 09:19 AM Re: Frack legislation [Re: Ayuveda]
Harleybob5 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/15/11
Posts: 726
Loc: Wallonia Freedom Fighter
Originally Posted By: Ayuveda
Dryden, Town of Ithaca, Town of Ulysses. Each have enacted bans on fracking. Since when don't you support grass roots activism in action.
ahahahahaha... about the same time AL Gore said the sky is falling.
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