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#1224703 --- 10/08/10 04:01 PM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: skipper68]
bluezone Offline
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Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32557
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: skipper68
second link has the treaties.


then you should be able to provide facts to your 'claims'
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#1226195 --- 10/15/10 07:54 AM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: bluezone]
bluezone Offline
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Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32557
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: dwarren
Judge Arcara denied the Seneca and Cayuga Indian Nation's motion for a preliminary injunction and granted an extension of the restraining order pending appeal.

From: [url]http://www.buffalonews.com/city/police-courts/courts/article220128.ece[/url]


U.S. District Judge Richard J. Arcara on Thursday extended indefinitely his ban on state taxation of cigarette sales by the Seneca Nation and other Indian tribes.

But it was not a complete victory for the Senecas and their supporters.

In one of two rulings, Arcara extended a temporary restraining order that prevents the state from collecting taxes on cigarette sales by Indian-owned businesses to non-Indians.

The temporary order, which the judge initially issued during the summer, had been scheduled to end today.

Arcara said Indian tribes throughout the state would "suffer irreparable injury" if he did not extend the temporary order. He said thousands of smoke shop workers would be likely to lose jobs if the state taxation begins now.

The judge also voiced concerns about public safety if he does not extend the order. He said he is concerned about the threat of violence by Indian protesters if the taxation begins.

While his extension of the temporary restraining order is good news for Indian tribes, Arcara also filed a second order in which he turned down some of the arguments that Indian tribes have presented to fight off taxation.

He said lawyers for the Seneca Nation and the Cayuga Indians have "failed to demonstrate a likelihood of success" on their claims that the state taxation plan is unconstitutional.

Previous decisions in federal courts "make clear that the [Indian tribes'] right to tribal self-government is not impeded by New York's decision to impose a tax-collection duty on sales by Indian retailers to non-members," Arcara wrote, "even if that decision carries with it the inevitable consequence that the [tribes'] coffers will suffer as a result of lost cigarette sales."

While Seneca Nation leaders and protesters publicly insist that the state's taxation efforts violate Indian treaties, that argument has not been advanced by the tribe's lawyers in the litigation before him, Arcara said.

In its legal arguments, the Seneca Nation "expressly acknowledges that, as a general principle, New York State has the authority to require reservation retailers to collect excise taxes on sales to non-Indians," Arcara wrote.

"This point is significant. New York estimates that of the 10 million cartons [of cigarettes] sold last year by [Seneca] retailers, less than 70,000 were purchased by Seneca Nation members for their own personal consumption. Under [previous federal court rulings], the vast majority of sales made by reservation retailers are taxable," the judge wrote.

Arcara said he has already been informed by Seneca and Cayuga lawyers that they would appeal his ruling.

In his view, he wrote, the best course of action is to extend his temporary restraining order while a higher court hears legal arguments on the controversial case.



time to stop using the lame 'broken treaties' scam....
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#1226324 --- 10/15/10 01:24 PM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: bluezone]
bluezone Offline
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Registered: 12/19/04
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Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: dwarren

In its legal arguments, the Seneca Nation "expressly acknowledges that, as a general principle, New York State has the authority to require reservation retailers to collect excise taxes on sales to non-Indians," Arcara wrote.



....meaning no federal reservations in NYS
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#1227387 --- 10/19/10 10:35 AM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: bluezone]
bluezone Offline
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Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32557
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: dwarren

In its legal arguments, the Seneca Nation "expressly acknowledges that, as a general principle, New York State has the authority to require reservation retailers to collect excise taxes on sales to non-Indians," Arcara wrote.



then the tribes need to stop fighting this and be a good neighbor
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#1228278 --- 10/22/10 12:59 PM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: bluezone]
bluezone Offline
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Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32557
Loc: USA
play both sides of the fence

what treaty was this a part of?

ask your 'government' for some money....lol



"The United States Department of Agriculture has agreed to pay $680 million in damages to thousands of Native American farmers who say they were denied farm loans
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#1228917 --- 10/25/10 08:17 AM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: bluezone]
bluezone Offline
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Registered: 12/19/04
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Loc: USA
the tribe is the one breaking the laws/treaties

the judge ruled against you

seneca tribe protests NYS collecting cig tax
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#1229614 --- 10/27/10 07:16 PM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: bluezone]
bluezone Offline
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Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32557
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: dwarren

In its legal arguments, the Seneca Nation "expressly acknowledges that, as a general principle, New York State has the authority to require reservation retailers to collect excise taxes on sales to non-Indians," Arcara wrote.



now the tribe wants to 'deal'
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#1229762 --- 10/28/10 08:23 AM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: bluezone]
bluezone Offline
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Registered: 12/19/04
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HOGANSBURG — The St. Regis Mohawk Tribe's proposal to send gaming revenues directly to north country communities is illegal, according to the governor.

Gov. David A. Paterson's lawyer, Peter J. Kiernan, sent a letter to the tribe informing them that doing so would violate state finance law and the gaming compact that was signed in 1993. The letter should have been delivered by today, state officials said.

"At its most basic level, the compact is an agreement between us and the tribe," said Morgan W. Hook, spokesman for Mr. Paterson. "We give them exclusive rights and they pay us. If they're not paying us, it's a violation of the compact at its most basic level."

Since the Akwesasne Mohawk Casino opened in 1999, the tribe has been sharing a portion of its revenues with the state, which then redistributes part of that to St. Lawrence and Franklin Counties, as well as the towns of Brasher, Massena, Fort Covington and Bombay. The state has to approve how the money will be used locally, according to state finance law.

Earlier this month, tribal Chief Mark H. Garrow said the state violated the tribe's exclusive right to operate slot machines in a six-county area, though he refused to identify where the alleged slots are located.

The tribe has told Albany officials only that the alleged gaming operation is in Clinton County, but the compact says that violations must be stated explicitly.

"The tribe has not informed the state of a gaming operation in Clinton County that violates the Indian exclusivity granted to the tribe," the letter said. "For whatever reason, the tribe has refused to state publicly where the purported illegal gaming operation is located."

The tribe's exclusivity agreement includes Clinton, Essex, Franklin, Hamilton, Jefferson and St. Lawrence counties.

None of the three chiefs on the Tribal Council could be reached for comment.

The letter says state officials hope to meet with the tribe to start negotiations within five days of tribal council receiving the letter. Otherwise, the state will seek arbitration. Without an agreement, the gaming compact could be terminated, which would result in the casino's closure. A state official who declined to be identified said that outcome is not likely. Mr. Garrow has vowed that the casino will remain open.

The Seneca Tribe is also trying to cut the state out of its gaming compact agreement over a dispute about video games in bars. The Senecas began discussions with the state last week, according to Mr. Hook.

The Mohawks have said that their move has nothing to do with the Senecas and both tribes deny that this dispute has anything to do with Albany's efforts to collect state taxes on cigarettes sold to non-natives on Indian reservations.

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#1231915 --- 11/06/10 12:21 PM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: bluezone]
bluezone Offline
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Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32557
Loc: USA
close them down
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#1231993 --- 11/07/10 01:18 AM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: bluezone]
VM Smith Offline
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Registered: 11/28/05
Posts: 38160
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Quote:
Arcara said Indian tribes throughout the state would "suffer irreparable injury" if he did not extend the temporary order. He said thousands of smoke shop workers would be likely to lose jobs if the state taxation begins now.


I wonder what he thinks about the irreparable injury that thousands of non-Indian smoke shop workers have received, or will receive, by losing jobs due to unfair competition.
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#1232016 --- 11/07/10 07:46 AM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: skipper68]
twocats Offline
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Registered: 02/09/10
Posts: 11904
Loc: NYS
Originally Posted By: skipper68


Good, informative link. Thank you.

Because the Constitution vested the Legislative Branch with plenary power over Indian Affairs, states have no authority over tribal governments unless expressly authorized by Congress. While federally recognized tribes generally are not subordinate to states, they can have a government-to-government relationship with these other sovereigns, as well.

Seems clear to me.


Edited by twocats (11/07/10 08:13 AM)
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#1232038 --- 11/07/10 09:25 AM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: twocats]
bluezone Offline
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Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32557
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: twocats
Originally Posted By: skipper68


Good, informative link. Thank you.

Because the Constitution vested the Legislative Branch with plenary power over Indian Affairs, states have no authority over tribal governments unless expressly authorized by Congress. While federally recognized tribes generally are not subordinate to states, they can have a government-to-government relationship with these other sovereigns, as well.

Seems clear to me.


you may want to read your link as seen below - there are no federal reservations in NYS

Are there other types of “Indian lands”?
Yes. Other types of Indian lands are:

State Indian reservations, which are lands held in trust by a state for an Indian tribe. With state trust lands title is held by the state on behalf of the tribe and the lands are not subject to state property tax. They are subject to state law, however. State trust lands stem from treaties or other agreements between a tribal group and the state government or the colonial government(s) that preceded it.
American Indian and Alaska Native tribes, businesses, and individuals may also own land as private property. In such cases, they are subject to state and local laws, regulations, codes, and taxation.

Are American Indians and Alaska Natives citizens of the United States?
Yes. As early as 1817, U.S. citizenship had been conferred by special treaty upon specific groups of Indian people. American citizenship was also conveyed by statutes, naturalization proceedings, and by service in the Armed Forces with an honorable discharge in World War I. In 1924, Congress extended American citizenship to all other American Indians born within the territorial limits of the United States. American Indians and Alaska Natives are citizens of the United States and of the individual states, counties, cities, and towns where they reside. They can also become citizens of their tribes or villages as enrolled tribal members.

Do laws that apply to non-Indians also apply to Indians?
Yes. As U.S. citizens, American Indians and Alaska Natives are generally subject to federal, state, and local laws.
On federal Indian reservations, however, only federal and tribal laws apply to members of the tribe, unless Congress provides otherwise. In federal law, the Assimilative Crimes Act makes any violation of state criminal law a federal offense on reservations. Most tribes now maintain tribal court systems and facilities to detain tribal members convicted of certain offenses within the boundaries of the reservation.

Seems clear to me.

NYS could use the Assimilative Crimes Act against the illegal cig sales




skipper68 posted that link in the cayuga county 'more tribal news' and he was shown his errors in reading the link
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#1232039 --- 11/07/10 09:28 AM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: VM Smith]
bluezone Offline
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Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32557
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: VM Smith
Quote:
Arcara said Indian tribes throughout the state would "suffer irreparable injury" if he did not extend the temporary order. He said thousands of smoke shop workers would be likely to lose jobs if the state taxation begins now.


I wonder what he thinks about the irreparable injury that thousands of non-Indian smoke shop workers have received, or will receive, by losing jobs due to unfair competition.


the business owners of the tax paying businesses have also suffered along with the workers
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#1232041 --- 11/07/10 09:40 AM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: bluezone]
bluezone Offline
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Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32557
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Gov. Paterson threatens to nix Seneca Indians casino deal
News Wire Services

Thursday, October 7th 2010, 4:00 AM

B. Smith for NewsGov. David Paterson is threatening to spike the deal that allows the Seneca Indians to operate three casinos - because the tribe is withholding payments to the state.

In a letter to Seneca President Barry Snyder, Paterson's top lawyer, Peter Kiernan, said the Senecas owe $105.5 million from 2009 and $109 million for 2010.

The letter requests a meeting within 14 days to negotiate a solution.

"Otherwise," the letter said, "... the state will commence arbitration and seek a finding of material breach."


the tribe has illegally sold far more in illegal cigs then has been lost from their competing gaming operations

NYS should seek all the money from the illegal cig sales
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#1232095 --- 11/07/10 12:56 PM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: bluezone]
VM Smith Offline
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Registered: 11/28/05
Posts: 38160
Loc: Ship of Fools
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: VM Smith
Quote:
Arcara said Indian tribes throughout the state would "suffer irreparable injury" if he did not extend the temporary order. He said thousands of smoke shop workers would be likely to lose jobs if the state taxation begins now.


I wonder what he thinks about the irreparable injury that thousands of non-Indian smoke shop workers have received, or will receive, by losing jobs due to unfair competition.


the business owners of the tax paying businesses have also suffered along with the workers


Of course they do; I was narrowly responding to Arcara's wording simply in the interest of clear sarcastic contrast.
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#1232201 --- 11/08/10 06:22 AM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: VM Smith]
bluezone Offline
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Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32557
Loc: USA
not sure how a judge can make a ruling that goes against the law

should drug dealers be allowed to continue to sell drugs due to 'irreparable injury' if they are locked in jail - the judges ruling goes against common sense
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#1232290 --- 11/08/10 03:53 PM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: bluezone]
bluezone Offline
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Loc: USA
Democrat Andrew Cuomo, who currently serves as attorney general, supports the state's effort to impose a tobacco tax on reservations. "I look forward to enforcing the law. I think it's been a long time coming," he told The Buffalo News.
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#1232446 --- 11/09/10 08:46 AM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: bluezone]
bluezone Offline
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Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32557
Loc: USA
when can we vote in the tribal elections?
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#1232459 --- 11/09/10 09:19 AM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: bluezone]
bluezone Offline
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Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32557
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Court sides with Sherrill
Supreme Court justices rule 8-1
Oneida Nation must pay tax to city
Wed, Mar 30, 2005
R. PATRICK CORBETT Observer-Dispatch

The Oneida Indian Nation must pay taxes on its property in the city of Sherrill and potentially on all land it has bought outside of its 32-acre reservation in Madison County, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled Tuesday. In an 8-1 decision, the court ruled that the New York Oneidas cannot disrupt two centuries of local development by refusing to pay local taxes on a gas station and T-shirt factory it owns in Sherrill in Oneida County. New York City lawyer Ira Sacks, who pleaded Sherrill's case pro bono, said, "We were very pleased. The Supreme Court agreed with the principal argument that after 200 years ... the Oneida Indian Nation can't pick and choose places to buy and take it out of local jurisdiction." The justices also remarked on the "distinctly non-Indian character of the area and its inhabitants," because most Oneida Indians moved out of the area about 150 years ago.



Have we forgot?

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#1232975 --- 11/11/10 07:00 AM Re: $150 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: bluezone]
bluezone Offline
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Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32557
Loc: USA
Ruling favors NY in Indian smokeshop tax fight

By CAROLYN THOMPSON
The Associated Press
Wednesday, November 10, 2010; 12:34 PM

BUFFALO, N.Y. -- A federal judge has sided with New York in the latest ruling in a dispute over the state's plans to tax most Indian reservation smokeshop sales, but collection of the tax is on hold for now.

U.S. District Judge Richard Arcara in Buffalo denied a request to block the state from collecting a sales tax on cigarettes sold to non-Indians. But he froze his decision so the two tribes who sought the order can appeal.

Arcara's ruling Tuesday in a case brought by the Unkechaug and St. Regis Mohawk tribes mirrors an earlier decision in a challenge by the Seneca and Cayuga nations.

The decisions mean New York still can't start collecting the $4.35-per-pack sales tax until a higher court, the Second Circuit Court of Appeals, hears the issue.

It's unknown how long the appeals process will take.

In all, five New York tribes are challenging the state's decision to require cigarette wholesalers to prepay the sales taxes before supplying reservation stores. Wholesalers would pass along the levy to tribal retailers, who would have to raise their prices.

The cash-starved state anticipates $200 million a year in revenue from the tax. The tribes argue the regulations would interfere with their rights of tribal sovereignty, make it hard for members to buy tax-free cigarettes and devastate tribal economies that depend on the sale of lower-priced cigarettes to fund programs and services.

In denying a preliminary injunction to the Unkechaugs of Long Island and St. Regis Mohawks of northern New York, Arcara said that, like the Senecas and Cayugas of western New York, the tribes had not demonstrated a likelihood of success on the merits of their claims, a requirement for issuing such an order.

But Arcara did acknowledge that the Indian nations would be harmed by the ruling and so issued a stay halting collection of the new tax pending appeal.

The state immediately appealed the stay.
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