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#1444266 --- 04/11/14 01:37 PM Re: Tribe not paying their fair share. [Re: kyle585]
Formermac Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 10/22/12
Posts: 18033
Loc: Above ground
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Formermac
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: VM Smith
Quote:
show me where the Native American agree to pay taxes in the first place
It doesn't matter whether he agrees to or not. He's legally required to pay.
Bingo. American citizens owning property in America. On property where taxes have been paid since the sovereign nation of the United States of America was founded.
Bingo, thanks for emphasizing that fact.
Does this imply that even American Whites/former slaves are taking the same stance as Native Americans

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_citizen_movement
Maybe. Sooner or later they may destroy the best nation the world has ever known.


Based on the current trend of things here in the USA and Globally we are destroying the only world we live on....they call it Earth. If you're religious, maybe the next one can improve upon the mistakes we've made past and present. whistle
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#1444267 --- 04/11/14 01:40 PM Re: Tribe not paying their fair share. [Re: Formermac]
kyle585 Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 02/18/09
Posts: 19801
Loc: Somewhere out there
Originally Posted By: Formermac
Based on the current trend of things here in the USA and Globally we are destroying the only world we live on....they call it Earth.
I agree. The Native Americans were obviously greatly harmed when the white man arrived. But their current actions are harming the USA which their so-called sovereign nations cannot now survive without.
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#1444268 --- 04/11/14 01:45 PM Re: Tribe not paying their fair share. [Re: kyle585]
Formermac Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 10/22/12
Posts: 18033
Loc: Above ground
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Formermac
Care to offer some info as to why, not debating here but curious since casinos normally do quite well.
The more there are, the less well each will do. There has to be some limit to how much money people can waste on such a harmful addiction.


I agree, yet there's one huge problem, the American public seems to have an even more addictive attraction to them and the Native American along with huge ventures are getting in on action regarding this phenomenon called gambling. Ever hear of Las Vegas? The problem existed way before you or I were born and there's no foreseeable decline in this trend.
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#1444272 --- 04/11/14 01:57 PM Re: Tribe not paying their fair share. [Re: kyle585]
Formermac Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 10/22/12
Posts: 18033
Loc: Above ground
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Formermac
Based on the current trend of things here in the USA and Globally we are destroying the only world we live on....they call it Earth.
I agree. The Native Americans were obviously greatly harmed when the white man arrived. But their current actions are harming the USA which their so-called sovereign nations cannot now survive without.


I don't totally agree that the White man's arrival caused all these problem because through inventions and modernization, life has become a great deal better. Some of our problems began once we began to deem ourselves superior to the extent of exalting or denigrating races in no particular order. History has always recorded that one fact but it's quite evident that all people did not feel they received their fair share of the GREAT AMERICAN DREAM being that they were slighted & disrespected in some form or fashion. This is not a justication for failures but I guaranteed you that running around the track with a heavy object on your back, makes for a more difficult possibility on winning the race.
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#1444294 --- 04/11/14 05:59 PM Re: Tribe not paying their fair share. [Re: kyle585]
Timbo Offline
Silver Member

Registered: 07/18/12
Posts: 14706
Loc: CNY
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Formermac
I own property in New York State Einstein.......I see that you have a attention span deficit.
I believe you said that you own property near Interlaken that your mother left you? Do you pay property and school tax on it? Since you are part Indian you would not have to pay and they could not foreclose on you.
Buzz - don't fall into the Timbo racist trap. It's not racial, it's political. If the properties were owned by individuals rather than purchased by the tribal government, they could be foreclosed on. No sovereign immunity defense by individuals.
No, it's BOTH. And much of the political end of things, has a strong racial component and constituency.
In your mind only.

In the FACT that both CERA and CERF are constantly finding themselves in alliance with clearly racist individuals, organizations and other groups.

If you don't know what I'm talking about, then I suggest that you do some much-needed research into the matter so that may know what you're actually talking about.
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#1444297 --- 04/11/14 06:06 PM Re: Tribe not paying their fair share. [Re: kyle585]
Timbo Offline
Silver Member

Registered: 07/18/12
Posts: 14706
Loc: CNY
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Timbo
When did the European settlers and the State & US Governments ever engage in genocide, internment, relocation and re-eduction on churches, hospitals, universities, and non-profit entities?

I must have missed that history lesson.
We all know the history. I keep asking what you think we should do now in 2014 to rectify the situation and I get no answer from you or anyone who believes as you do.

Apparently Rich does NOT... or at least he shouldn't be making such non-equative comparisons.

I've repeatedly provided my thoughts on the beginnings of a solution, but you refuse to acknowledge my answers because they don't align with the answer that you would prefer that I give.

You can only run over a frog so many times before it's flat.
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#1444299 --- 04/11/14 06:17 PM Re: Tribe not paying their fair share. [Re: kyle585]
Timbo Offline
Silver Member

Registered: 07/18/12
Posts: 14706
Loc: CNY
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: VM Smith
Quote:
show me where the Native American agree to pay taxes in the first place
It doesn't matter whether he agrees to or not. He's legally required to pay.
Bingo. American citizens owning property in America. On property where taxes have been paid since the sovereign nation of the United States of America was founded.

I find it most "amusing" that you suggest that the Europeans that settled, invaded and slaughtered the indigenous peoples of the continent, should qualify as a sovereign nation, yet the inhabitants that were here for tens of thousands of years prior... somehow, do NOT! crazy crazy crazy

Brilliant!
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#1444303 --- 04/11/14 06:27 PM Re: Tribe not paying their fair share. [Re: kyle585]
Timbo Offline
Silver Member

Registered: 07/18/12
Posts: 14706
Loc: CNY
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Formermac
Based on the current trend of things here in the USA and Globally we are destroying the only world we live on....they call it Earth.
I agree. The Native Americans were obviously greatly harmed when the white man arrived. But their current actions are harming the USA which their so-called sovereign nations cannot now survive without.

You're certifiable.

Listen to yourself...
You make baseless claims with absolutely NO proof of Indians being unable to tend to their own needs, while at the same time, you demand that they be forced into an arrangement that denies them the rights to be fully self-governing. The Indians managed just fine prior to the arrival of the white man.

When the white man did arrive, their actions harmed the Indians far, Far, FAR more so (and still do). Why is your "matrix" any more valid than that of the Indians???

Why won't you ever address this issue?

I don't know which is worse,... your self-inflicted ignorance or your raging hypocrisy, all in one tidy, little sentence.

YIKES! eek
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#1444304 --- 04/11/14 06:32 PM Re: Tribe not paying their fair share. [Re: Formermac]
Timbo Offline
Silver Member

Registered: 07/18/12
Posts: 14706
Loc: CNY
Originally Posted By: Formermac
running around the track with a heavy object on your back, makes for a more difficult possibility on winning the race.

Quite.
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#1444305 --- 04/11/14 06:39 PM Re: Tribe not paying their fair share. [Re: kyle585]
Formermac Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 10/22/12
Posts: 18033
Loc: Above ground
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Formermac
Based on the current trend of things here in the USA and Globally we are destroying the only world we live on....they call it Earth.
I agree. The Native Americans were obviously greatly harmed when the white man arrived. But their current actions are harming the USA which their so-called sovereign nations cannot now survive without.


You mean similarly as to how our greedy country continues to send all the excellent jobs overseas, denigrate a President who observes millions without health insurance, without the basic necessities of life such as food, decent housing and education and must deal with obstructionists who'll declare that building our armament and Defense Department more important. It appears that this great nation is showing signs of decay morally, physically and compassion left town several years ago. Nope, the Native Americans are observing the very premises they've stated years ago.........We as a country "take,take,take and once I've conceive of a way to enhance myself through hard work and ingenuity, you take that as well, only to give it back to the greedy.
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#1444436 --- 04/13/14 09:39 AM Re: Tribe not paying their fair share. [Re: Formermac]
kyle585 Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 02/18/09
Posts: 19801
Loc: Somewhere out there
With the nice weather here now I am going to have a lot less time to post on here. There are a lot of hot topics discussed forever on these forums and I enjoy reading all the comments. But I am beginning to doubt that the opinion of even one person has been changed at all on any topic. None. Zero. Zilch. It just makes us feel good to make our point and think we are influencing others. Good luck to UCE and president Obama. whistle
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#1444438 --- 04/13/14 11:31 AM Re: Tribe not paying their fair share. [Re: bluezone]
teedoff27 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/11/11
Posts: 2272
Loc: S2Hphoto
BYE!!!! "Don't let the door hit ya!"

Kyle you have to do more than sit behind a computer and bellyache to 7 other people to "fight the system"!

Just like how I was able to get the abandoned house behind me tore down. Daily calls to the Mayor and Code enforcement as well as contacting local politicians and keeping records of all my contact. When all else failed I contacted the local news media. It ran as the top story of the 6:00 news(the same day code enforcement was asking the city for their $1million budget) and low and behold at 7:45 the very next morning it was being bulldozed.

It didn't stop there. The following week the Mayor did a walking tour of the city and emailed pictures to code enforcement of dilapidated/abandon houses demanding WHAT was being done with the properties!
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#1444439 --- 04/13/14 12:31 PM Re: Tribe not paying their fair share. [Re: teedoff27]
Formermac Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 10/22/12
Posts: 18033
Loc: Above ground
Originally Posted By: teedoff27
BYE!!!! "Don't let the door hit ya!"

Kyle you have to do more than sit behind a computer and bellyache to 7 other people to "fight the system"!

Just like how I was able to get the abandoned house behind me tore down. Daily calls to the Mayor and Code enforcement as well as contacting local politicians and keeping records of all my contact. When all else failed I contacted the local news media. It ran as the top story of the 6:00 news(the same day code enforcement was asking the city for their $1million budget) and low and behold at 7:45 the very next morning it was being bulldozed.

It didn't stop there. The following week the Mayor did a walking tour of the city and emailed pictures to code enforcement of dilapidated/abandon houses demanding WHAT was being done with the properties!


Good morning Teedoff27, I must say that your post is one of the most enlightened ones I've heard, hiding behind anonymous names to complain only incites hard feelings and animosity. Good work!
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#1444515 --- 04/14/14 02:58 AM Re: Tribe not paying their fair share. [Re: Formermac]
Rich_Tallcot Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/19/03
Posts: 5586
Loc: Greeneville, TN
Originally Posted By: Formermac
All this is suppose to mean what to me?
Nothing can mean anything to you unless you can comprehend it. You stated since this lawsuit has been ongoing back and forth for how many years.

My reply showed that there is only one lawsuit and that has only been going on for about three years.

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#1444521 --- 04/14/14 10:36 AM Re: Tribe not paying their fair share. [Re: kyle585]
SportsRef1 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/30/03
Posts: 3225
Loc: Seneca County
Originally Posted By: kyle585
With the nice weather here now I am going to have a lot less time to post on here. There are a lot of hot topics discussed forever on these forums and I enjoy reading all the comments. But I am beginning to doubt that the opinion of even one person has been changed at all on any topic. None. Zero. Zilch. It just makes us feel good to make our point and think we are influencing others. Good luck to UCE and president Obama. whistle



CYA!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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#1444523 --- 04/14/14 10:51 AM Re: Tribe not paying their fair share. [Re: Rich_Tallcot]
Formermac Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 10/22/12
Posts: 18033
Loc: Above ground
Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot
Originally Posted By: Formermac
All this is suppose to mean what to me?
Nothing can mean anything to you unless you can comprehend it. You stated since this lawsuit has been ongoing back and forth for how many years.

My reply showed that there is only one lawsuit and that has only been going on for about three years.



My "comprehension" acknowledges that lawsuits (the s on the end of lawsuit implies several appeals. Don't attempt to minimize the amount of time and money spent.

Legal Timeline of Case:
•November 25th, 2008: Two Cayuga Indian Nation-owned cigarette shops (Lakeside Trading in Seneca Falls & Union Springs), were raided by officials from the Cayuga County and Seneca County Sheriff's Department.
•December 9th, 2008: Judge rules in favor of Cayuga and Seneca counties, supporting their right to pursue a tax evasion investigation against the Cayuga Nation. (Click here for decision)
•January 21st, 2009: Appellate court issues preliminary injunction preventing tax evasion investigation from going forward until appeal is heard.
•February 18th, 2009: Judge says Cayuga Nation cannot sell cigarettes until appeals court rules on legality of Indian Nation selling cigarettes.
•April 3rd, 2009: Appeals court hears arguments on whether criminal tax evasion investigation is legal.
•July 10th, 2009: Court rules Cayugas can sell cigarettes.
•July 13th, 2009: Cayuga Nation presents settlement offer to Cayuga and Seneca counties. Cayugas offered to pay legal fees for both counties and would not pursue a lawsuit if both counties dropped their pursuit of an investigation. The next day, both counties rejected the offer.
•August 27th, 2009: Cigarettes seized in raid will not be returned to Cayuga Nation because they are part of an ongoing investigation, a judge rules.
•October 2nd, 2009: State appellate court rules counties can take case to state's highest court.
•March 25th, 2010: State Court of Appeals hears arguments from both sides in case.
•May 11th, 2010: Court of Appeals, rules Cayuga Nation cannot face criminal tax evasion charges and says state should institute system to separate sales to natives from sales to non-natives. (Note: Judges in majority decision also ruled that the Cayugas' stores are located on qualified reservations according to the federal government and the state's tax law.) Click here for full-decision:
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#1444527 --- 04/14/14 12:04 PM Re: Tribe not paying their fair share. [Re: Formermac]
VM Smith Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 11/29/05
Posts: 38160
Loc: Ship of Fools
Quote:
My "comprehension" acknowledges that lawsuits (the s on the end of lawsuit implies several appeals.


You've identified one lawsuit. Note: No "s". I now see another of your problems: You don't comprehend that an appeal in a lawsuit is not a lawsuit. I'm kidding; it's all one problem, really.
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#1444534 --- 04/14/14 02:43 PM Re: Tribe not paying their fair share. [Re: VM Smith]
Formermac Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 10/22/12
Posts: 18033
Loc: Above ground
Originally Posted By: VM Smith
Quote:
My "comprehension" acknowledges that lawsuits (the s on the end of lawsuit implies several appeals.


You've identified one lawsuit. Note: No "s". I now see another of your problems: You don't comprehend that an appeal in a lawsuit is not a lawsuit. I'm kidding; it's all one problem, really.


Yes one lawsuit but an appeal implies that one side lost and the other won. If the losing party decides to appeal, yes the same lawsuit but a new venue to be litigated ALL over again and not to start where the other left off...thus one long ongoing problem resulting in several attempts at eventually winning.
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#1444625 --- 04/15/14 05:54 AM Re: Tribe not paying their fair share. [Re: Formermac]
Rich_Tallcot Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/19/03
Posts: 5586
Loc: Greeneville, TN
Tribes sue for everything and anything over nothing and have been doing so repeatedly for decades. Yes, they waste time and cost money. Lawsuits invariably result in appeals regardless of who loses or wins. That is the process and any lawsuit can drag on for 5 to 10 years before running out of appeal processes.

The one lawsuit you selected to analyze has been settled. The Cayuga have repackaged the old cigarette tobacco in with new cigarettes.

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#1444626 --- 04/15/14 05:58 AM Re: Tribe not paying their fair share. [Re: Timbo]
Rich_Tallcot Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/19/03
Posts: 5586
Loc: Greeneville, TN
Originally Posted By: Timbo
Originally Posted By: Rich_Tallcot


Timbo: Unfamiliar with the word "virtually", are you?

NOPE, not anymore. ROTFLMAO

You imply disparity where none exists. Try explaining specifically where you see it in my comments
Timbo, your posts speak for themselves. Your disparity is self evident to all but yourself. You have successfully made yourself the forum fool.

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