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#1109423 --- 11/24/09 08:40 AM Re: $2 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: bluezone]
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32557
Loc: USA
impeach paterson as he has refused to collect the billions of lost tax revenue from the tribes
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#1112301 --- 11/30/09 12:00 PM Re: $2 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: bluezone]
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32557
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Paterson warns of possible job cuts, layoffs


He should be the first in line.
_________________________
"OUR COUNTRY IS IN MOURNING, A SOLDIER DIED TODAY."

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#1116905 --- 12/08/09 02:03 PM Re: $2 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: bluezone]
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32557
Loc: USA
$1.4 and the tribes will spend it and ask for more
_________________________
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#1118757 --- 12/10/09 12:57 PM Re: $2 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: bluezone]
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32557
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Court sides with Sherrill
Supreme Court justices rule 8-1
Oneida Nation must pay tax to city
Wed, Mar 30, 2005
R. PATRICK CORBETT Observer-Dispatch

The Oneida Indian Nation must pay taxes on its property in the city of Sherrill and potentially on all land it has bought outside of its 32-acre reservation in Madison County, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled Tuesday. In an 8-1 decision, the court ruled that the New York Oneidas cannot disrupt two centuries of local development by refusing to pay local taxes on a gas station and T-shirt factory it owns in Sherrill in Oneida County. New York City lawyer Ira Sacks, who pleaded Sherrill's case pro bono, said, "We were very pleased. The Supreme Court agreed with the principal argument that after 200 years ... the Oneida Indian Nation can't pick and choose places to buy and take it out of local jurisdiction." The justices also remarked on the "distinctly non-Indian character of the area and its inhabitants," because most Oneida Indians moved out of the area about 150 years ago.



Paterson - need some revenue?

_________________________
"OUR COUNTRY IS IN MOURNING, A SOLDIER DIED TODAY."

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#1119472 --- 12/11/09 02:32 PM Re: $2 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: bluezone]
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32557
Loc: USA
Dec 10, 3:12 PM EST

Indian reservation cigarettes under fire in NY

By DAVID B. CARUSO
Associated Press Writer
Battle against smoking drags on, years after tobacco settlement

NEW YORK (AP) -- The City of New York has accused several cigarette dealers on a Long Island Indian reservation of secretly defying a court order that was supposed to have shut them down.

The charge is the latest in a legal battle between New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg and smoke shops on the Poospatuck Indian Reservation over the sale of millions of dollars in untaxed cigarettes.

In August, a federal judge ordered most of the largest shops on the reservation to stop selling untaxed packs to the general public, saying such sales were illegal, despite the state's tolerance of the practice.

Publicly, the shops promised to abide by the ruling, but in a motion filed in federal court on Wednesday, lawyers for the city said three dealers quietly continued to do business through newly formed cigarette stores not covered by the court order.

"It shows contempt for the court's authority," said Eric Proshansky, an attorney for the city.

The tribe's chief, Harry Wallace, didn't immediately return a phone and e-mail message from The Associated Press on Thursday, but told Newsday that the allegations are false.

The city has asked U.S. District Court Judge Carol Amon for thousands of dollars in penalties against the three dealers.

Lawyers for two of the dealers declined comment. Richard Levitt, a lawyer who represents dealer Wayne Harris, wouldn't discuss his client's case in detail but said, "the evidence will show that he is not in contempt of the court's order."

In August, Amon ruled that the tribal shops' longtime practice of selling cigarettes without collecting required state taxes was illegal.

She ordered eight shops to stop selling cigarettes to anyone who wasn't enrolled in the tribe, and barred 11 people affiliated with those stores from further sales to the general public. The three dealers were all named in that order.

The shops have appealed, but all had also publicly claimed to have ceased operations by September.

City lawyers didn't buy it, and investigated with the assistance of agents from the state's tax enforcement division.

The case is being watched closely because of its potential effect on other Indian reservations around the state.

Shops on tribal land now account for nearly a third of all cigarettes sold annually in New York. This booming business is a product of the state's longtime reluctance to collect taxes on cigarettes sold on tribal land, which means reservation shops can offer tobacco at a huge discount.

Relatively few shop owners have ever been charged in criminal court over their dealings in untaxed cigarettes.

are the tribes above the law?
_________________________
"OUR COUNTRY IS IN MOURNING, A SOLDIER DIED TODAY."

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#1121637 --- 12/15/09 08:43 AM Re: $2 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: bluezone]
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32557
Loc: USA
paterson - did you run out of money yet?
_________________________
"OUR COUNTRY IS IN MOURNING, A SOLDIER DIED TODAY."

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#1122702 --- 12/17/09 07:51 AM Re: $2 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: bluezone]
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32557
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Court sides with Sherrill
Supreme Court justices rule 8-1
Oneida Nation must pay tax to city
Wed, Mar 30, 2005
R. PATRICK CORBETT Observer-Dispatch

The Oneida Indian Nation must pay taxes on its property in the city of Sherrill and potentially on all land it has bought outside of its 32-acre reservation in Madison County, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled Tuesday. In an 8-1 decision, the court ruled that the New York Oneidas cannot disrupt two centuries of local development by refusing to pay local taxes on a gas station and T-shirt factory it owns in Sherrill in Oneida County. New York City lawyer Ira Sacks, who pleaded Sherrill's case pro bono, said, "We were very pleased. The Supreme Court agreed with the principal argument that after 200 years ... the Oneida Indian Nation can't pick and choose places to buy and take it out of local jurisdiction." The justices also remarked on the "distinctly non-Indian character of the area and its inhabitants," because most Oneida Indians moved out of the area about 150 years ago.





Is Ray Halbritter aware of this?
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#1131692 --- 01/11/10 06:06 AM Re: $2 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: bluezone]
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32557
Loc: USA
Paterson will not bow down to special interest groups?
even the ones that burn tires on the thruway?
_________________________
"OUR COUNTRY IS IN MOURNING, A SOLDIER DIED TODAY."

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#1131782 --- 01/11/10 10:41 AM Re: $2 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: bluezone]
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32557
Loc: USA
Senecas confront tobacco roadblock
As Congress threatens mail-order cigarette business, nation puts up a last-ditch fight
By Jerry Zremski
Updated: January 11, 2010, 12:17 AM / 33 comments


WASHINGTON — Congress may be about to put the Seneca Nation's mail-order cigarette industry out of business.

The Senate is expected to soon consider a bill that would bar the U.S. Postal Service — which has been handling an estimated 70 percent of the Senecas' tobacco merchandise — from delivering those cigarettes. The House passed a similar measure last May, and lawmakers and anti-smoking lobbyists talk as if the new legislation could be a done deal before long.

In other words, Albany's long-standing quest to curb the Senecas' sales of tax-free cigarettes may soon end successfully in Washington, leaving the Indian nation's smoke shops as the central remaining venue for its tobacco business.

But the Senecas are putting up a last-ditch fight, contending that the bill threatens 1,000 jobs and unsuccessfully prodding New York's senators to oppose the measure — even though they co-sponsored it.

Then again, that sort of turnabout would not be unprecedented.

Democratic Reps. Brian Higgins of Buffalo and Eric J.J. Massa of Corning recently expressed qualms about the bill, even though they voted for the House version last year.

Those qualms stem in part from the grave concerns of their Seneca constituents.

"An attack on the Seneca Nation is an attack on the economy of Western New York," said J.C. Seneca, a successful tobacco entrepreneur who also is co-chairman of the tribe's Foreign Relations Committee.

Considering its cigarette businesses, casinos and other enterprises, the Seneca Nation represents "a $1.1 billion economic engine" for the area, Seneca said.

"We are in the infancy of our economy," he added. "Let us use [the tobacco trade] to build on, to diversify."

Such aspirant words ring hollow to officials from the State of New York, as well as the anti-smoking lobby, who see the Senecas building their economy on tax evasion and sales of a an addictive carcinogenic product.

Paterson backs PACT


The state backs the proposed federal law — the Prevent All Cigarette Trafficking (PACT) Act — even though it would provide the state only an estimated $30 million a year in new tax revenue from people who would buy cigarettes at stores rather than from the Senecas by mail.

That's far short of the $220 million the state would get if it could tax the cigarettes that the Senecas currently sell both through the U.S. mail and at their smoke shops, but it's good enough for Gov. David A. Paterson.

"We strongly support the PACT Act," said Morgan Hook, a spokesman for the governor. "Eliminating the ability of cigarette sellers to ship cigarettes to customers by mail is in the interest of the public health."

The House passed its version of the PACT Act by a 397-11 margin last May.

Even though versions of the bill have been kicking around for years, congressional sources said that it was rushed onto the House calendar before the Senecas could wage a big fight — and before some lawmakers understood its ramifications.

That's why Higgins and Massa have changed their tune.

The PACT Act "would eliminate the [Senecas'] mail-order businesses and associated employment," Higgins wrote in a Dec. 14 letter to Democratic Sens. Charles E. Schumer and Kirsten E. Gillibrand of New York. "I do not believe that Western New York can afford any more job losses and so this letter is a request for your help in preventing that from happening."

Asked about the letter, Higgins said it stemmed from concerns that a North Carolina senator would add language to the bill to shelter a tobacco seller in that state from the law.

"I still support the bill," Higgins said. "My point — perhaps unclear in the letter — was, if the Senate is going to amend the bill to protect North Carolina, would they consider amending it to protect New York?"

But Senate sources said the bill's sponsor, Sen. Herb Kohl, D-Wis., refused to grant exemptions to North Carolina or any other state. And a spokesman for Sen. Richard M. Burr, the North Carolina Republican who had sought such an exemption, said there would be no such language in the final bill.

Nevertheless, Massa — who sent Gillibrand a Dec. 16 letter urging her to prevent a quick vote on the matter — said he now opposes the PACT Act.

Massa said that his view evolved "as I became more informed" and that he now worries that the bill would infringe on the Seneca Nation's rights established by treaty more than two centuries ago.

"It is my job to uphold federal treaties, and this is one of them," Massa said in an interview. Richard E. Nephew, chairman of the Seneca Nation Legislative Council, echoed that concern. "It all begins with our treaty rights, which we were given by the federal government and which say that we will be undisturbed in our territory," Nephew said. "We've learned to capitalize on that."

Competitive advantage


There's no doubt of that.

About 11.8 million cartons of stamped, legally sanctioned cigarettes flowed through the Seneca reservations in 2008, the state Department of Taxation and Finance reported.

That's about 1,483 cartons of cigarettes for every Native American living on Seneca lands — and that doesn't count the counterfeit or smuggled cigarettes that critics believe pass through Seneca hands on their way to smokers nationwide.

Citing the sovereignty of Indian lands, Seneca merchants refuse to collect state taxes on the cigarettes they sell, giving them a huge advantage over convenience stores and other outlets that sell tobacco products at full price. That has made Seneca smoke shops and mail-order cigarette businesses a huge success.

Seneca cigarette sales peaked at 29.8 million cartons in 2004 and have fallen sharply since then, as credit card companies and shippers such as FedEx, UPS and DHL bowed to state pressure and stopped servicing Seneca cigarette businesses.

What's left is still a thriving business that, the Senecas say, employs 1,000 people — and relies primarily on the Postal Service to deliver its goods.

Asked to detail where those 1,000 jobs are, the tribe declined.

"Do they really expect us to fall for the canard that cigarette tax evasion is an economic-development engine?" said James S. Calvin, president of the New York Association of Convenience Stores.

Calvin and other supporters of the federal bill argue that many of the Seneca jobs would simply shift to cigarette sellers who pay taxes — and who do a better job of ensuring that tobacco products don't get sold to minors.

Even though the Seneca businesses require a copy of the customer's ID before shipping out cigarettes, anti-smoking advocates said it's still far easier for kids to borrow a parent's ID and order smokes than it is to buy them face to face. "This bill is all about making sure cigarettes don't get in the hands of kids and that the tax revenue goes to the state," said Russell C. Sciandra, director of the Center for a Tobacco Free New York.

The Senecas counter by insisting they are diligent on checking IDs and by stressing that they have worked with the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives to crack down on cigarette trafficking.

In fact, Ronald B. Turk, the ATF's special agent in charge for New York, lauded the Senecas' efforts in a letter last May. "As a result of the Seneca Nation's cooperative efforts with ATF, several investigations into illicit cigarette trafficking have been initiated and are now being prosecuted," Turk wrote. "The assistance provided thus far has been invaluable."

Strange bedfellows


If the Seneca Nation and the ATF seem like strange bedfellows, note this: Supporters of the PACT Act include not only the Campaign for Tobacco-Free Kids, but also Altria, the tobacco giant once known as Philip Morris. Altria is part of the Coalition to Stop Contraband Tobacco, which is lobbying for the bill's passage — a fact that leaves the Senecas arguing that they're in a death struggle with Big Tobacco.

"It's all about money for Philip Morris," said Seneca, who now manufactures his own brand of cigarettes, called Buffalo. "They're losing market share."

While private shippers — who have voluntarily stopped delivering the cigarettes — would still be able to legally ship them under the PACT Act, the Senecas are pressuring Schumer and Gillibrand to try to stop the bill in the Senate. But that argument appears to be getting nowhere.

Congressional aides said Kohl is seeking a way to get the measure passed quickly and to then get the House to simply repass the Senate's slightly different version of the bill.

New York's senators remain steadfast in their support of the PACT Act.

"Sen. Gillibrand supports the legislation because it will end illegal trafficking of cigarettes to minors," said her spokeswoman, Bethany Lesser.

Schumer spokesman Max Young said: "We strongly believe that cigarettes should not be sold in the mail or anywhere else to children or minors."

jzremski@buffnews.com

_________________________
"OUR COUNTRY IS IN MOURNING, A SOLDIER DIED TODAY."

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#1134367 --- 01/18/10 07:48 AM Re: $2 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: bluezone]
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32557
Loc: USA
how much will the deficit be when paterson speaks?
_________________________
"OUR COUNTRY IS IN MOURNING, A SOLDIER DIED TODAY."

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#1134790 --- 01/19/10 11:20 AM Re: $2 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: Scottie2Hottie]
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32557
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Scottie2Hottie



Paterson stated he will move "expeditious" to collect the tribal taxes as stated today in his address on the budget.

Forebearance will no longer be tolerated..............
_________________________
"OUR COUNTRY IS IN MOURNING, A SOLDIER DIED TODAY."

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#1135837 --- 01/22/10 12:42 AM Re: $2 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: bluezone]
Scottie2Hottie Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 01/27/03
Posts: 16463
Loc: aka Brightside
Originally Posted By: bluezone
Originally Posted By: Scottie2Hottie



Paterson stated he will move "expeditious" to collect the tribal taxes as stated today in his address on the budget.

Forebearance will no longer be tolerated..............



Yeah OK! Like I said before.... I see how much success Cuomo, Pataki, and Spitzer had. LOL

Paterson may be blind and can't see them rioting and blocking the Thruway....But I am SURE he can smell the the tires burning! LOL
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No Mullet...NO Glory!!

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#1135842 --- 01/22/10 01:01 AM Re: $2 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: Scottie2Hottie]
VM Smith Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 11/28/05
Posts: 38160
Loc: Ship of Fools
Yellow Pages

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By Julie Sherwood, staff writer
Messenger Post
Posted Jan 21, 2010 @ 05:30 PM
Canandaigua, N.Y. —

A pair of proposed measures at the state and federal levels could create a perfect storm over Native American reservations, driving up the cost of cigarettes.

Gov. David Paterson’s budget proposal calls for the tax department to draft regulations to enforce a 2008 law intended to stop wholesalers from selling untaxed cigarettes to tribes.
Meanwhile, if a bill to be voted on soon in the U.S. Senate passes, buying tax-free cigarettes via mail-order from Native American reservations won’t be an option.


By the Numbers

$2.75
Excise tax on cigarettes

4 percent
State sales tax on cigarettes

$200M
Amount of tax to be gained through reservations





New York’s U.S. senators, Democrats Kirsten Gillibrand and Chuck Schumer, are co-sponsors of Prevent All Cigarette Trafficking (PACT) Act. “It will end illegal trafficking of cigarettes to minors,” said Gillibrand spokeswoman Bethany Lesser.

U.S. Rep. Eric Massa, D-Corning, who voted for the House version of the bill that passed in May, said he supported it for the same reason. Recently, though, he has voiced opposition, saying the Seneca Nation has taken measures to ensure minors can’t buy mail-order cigarettes.
The Senecas “have complied, they have done everything necessary to ensure minors can not buy tobacco,” said Massa. “The overall goal, ... that children can not buy cigarettes online, that has been met.”

Meanwhile, Seneca Nation President Barry Snyder said in a press release the PACT Act would devastate the Seneca’s economy. He said the nation has taken steps to regulate the sale of tobacco products, such as working with the Federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, to implement a cigarette-carton stamping program to enforce the ban on tobacco sales to minors.


Sales tax debate.
Assembly Minority Leader Brian M. Kolb is endorsing Gov. David Paterson’s budget directive requiring the State Department of Taxation and Finance to move forward in collecting sales taxes from purchases made on Native American lands by non-Native Americans.

The governor said Tuesday he would order his tax department to draft regulations to enforce a 2008 law intended to stop wholesalers from selling untaxed cigarettes to tribes.
That would force Indian retailers who currently don’t charge the state’s $2.75-per-pack excise tax and 4 percent sales tax to pay more to suppliers up front and ultimately raise their prices.
The Canandaigua Republican characterized the measure as the “right thing to do” to ensure a “level playing field for all convenience stores.”
“If our laws are to mean anything, they must be applied equally to everyone,” said Kolb in a prepared statement. “No person or group is above the law or below it.”

Paterson’s budget proposal does not yet anticipate any revenue from reservation sales to non-Indians because the regulations are not in place, but supporters of the tax collection plan, including the New York Association of Convenience Stores, estimate the state would raise hundreds of millions of dollars a year.
“The fact that it could generate over $200 million in the collection of state sales taxes on cigarette sales alone is welcome news in light of New York’s multi-billion dollar budget gap that needs closing,” Kolb said.

The Seneca Nation has said it will sit down with the governor to discuss the proposal, but it refuses to collect sales tax for the state.

Retailers weigh in
The state tax on cigarettes, proposed to go up another dollar, has already killed a lot of his sales, said Jeff Bliss, manager of Bliss Shurfine in Manchester. “Most (smokers) are just tiding themselves over to the next time they visit the reservation,” he said, buying “a pack here, a pack there.”
Richard Rank, co-owner of Rank’s IGA in Canandaigua, agreed. Both said the licensing fee they have to pay to sell cigarettes recently rose from $100 to $2,500. Rank questions how much longer he can afford to sell cigarettes.
A ban on mail-order cigarettes “might help sales a little bit,” he said. “But if sales go down the tubes, I will definitely get out of it.”
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If you vote for government, you have no right to complain about what government does.

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#1135911 --- 01/22/10 05:54 AM Re: $2 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: VM Smith]
SilverRose Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/13/05
Posts: 1998
Loc: Heart of the Lakes
I know this is a simplistic thought to a complex issue, but why doesn't the government tax the cigarettes BEFORE they leave the point of origin 'store' where the Indians are buying them? One "built in cost" for all purchasers - Indians/non-indians - tax paid - controversy done - no additional taxes to the consumer down the line.

Walmart/other stores charge customers, Indians/non-indians, the same tax on products purchased, so why not the original dispensers of cigarettes? That would remove the controversy. The various retailors could then charge whatever the need dictates to cover their costs (shipping/handling).

Wouldn't that level the playing field?




.
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The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress. - Joseph Joubert

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#1139661 --- 01/29/10 09:39 AM Re: $2 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: Scottie2Hottie]
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32557
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Scottie2Hottie
Yeah OK! Like I said before.... I see how much success Cuomo, Pataki, and Spitzer had. LOL


AG cuomo
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#1139666 --- 01/29/10 09:42 AM Re: $2 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: VM Smith]
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32557
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: VM Smith

Meanwhile, Seneca Nation President Barry Snyder said in a press release the PACT Act would devastate the Seneca’s economy. He said the nation has taken steps to regulate the sale of tobacco products, such as working with the Federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, to implement a cigarette-carton stamping program to enforce the ban on tobacco sales to minors.



the senecas want a stamping program for minors but not for sales taxes....
_________________________
"OUR COUNTRY IS IN MOURNING, A SOLDIER DIED TODAY."

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#1139670 --- 01/29/10 09:43 AM Re: $2 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: SilverRose]
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32557
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: SilverRose

Wouldn't that level the playing field?

.


tribes make their own cigs
_________________________
"OUR COUNTRY IS IN MOURNING, A SOLDIER DIED TODAY."

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#1141557 --- 02/02/10 08:26 AM Re: $2 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: SilverRose]
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32557
Loc: USA
Tobacco tax boost tied to Indian issue
By Tom Precious
NEWS ALBANY BUREAU
Updated: January 27, 2010, 7:12 am / 10 comments

ALBANY — A legislative push would deny Gov. David A. Paterson his $1-per-pack cigarette tax increase until the state begins collecting taxes on tobacco products sold on American Indian reservations.

The governor included the cigarette tax increase in his proposed budget. But when the governor’s call to start collecting the taxes on such sales to non-Indians would kick in remains unclear, although it likely would be months after the proposed tobacco tax increase takes effect June 2.

“We should collect before we tax,” State Sen. Carl Kruger, chairman of the Senate Finance Committee, said Tuesday at a legislative hearing looking into ways to end the tax-free sales.

“Everyday that goes by we are not doing the right thing for the people of New York,” said Kruger, a Brooklyn Democrat who called the long-standing tax-free sales a “diabolical scheme” that has denied the state billions of dollars in tax revenue.
_________________________
"OUR COUNTRY IS IN MOURNING, A SOLDIER DIED TODAY."

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#1142025 --- 02/03/10 02:21 AM Re: $2 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: bluezone]
Scottie2Hottie Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 01/27/03
Posts: 16463
Loc: aka Brightside
How many threads are you going to post this in?? \:\/

Also all this article PROVES is that Paterson is CLUELESS and Carl Kruger and the others KNOW that the $1/pack tax would send even MORE people to the Native Americans for their tax free smokes
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#1145308 --- 02/10/10 01:23 PM Re: $2 BILLION Owed NY by Tribes [Re: Scottie2Hottie]
bluezone Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 32557
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Scottie2Hottie
How many threads are you going to post this in?? \:\/



did you comprehend it yet?
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