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#1139715 --- 01/29/10 10:23 AM Re: Dairy Farm in Cayuga targeted by animal rights [Re: kyle585]
Greymane Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/09/06
Posts: 6848
Loc: Central PA
Originally Posted By: kyle585
I can guarantee you that all 60,000 of them are confined 365 days a year.


Of course you can, because you have been there and personally monitored the cows for a full 365 days.

My point is that people are fully willing to ruin this farm as long as they can do it from a distance and it doesn't require too much effort. In reality, they don't like it, but they aren't willing to really do anything about it. I admit it. I am not passionate enough about this specific topic to drive out there and put a stop to it. Many of you claim you are. I would disagree.

We all have limits to our "passion". I love my kids. If my son ran into the road, I would dive in front of a car to protect him. I love dogs. If my dog ran into the road, I believe I would at least consider doing the same. If YOUR dog ran into the road, I AM NOT jumping in front of a car to save your dog. That is just the way it is.

I spent 17 years in the service defending what I thought was important. As a volunteer firefighter for over ten years, I went into burning buildings to protect life and property. My choice. BUT, I can't save everyone and everything. If I am not going to go the extra mile to fight a battle to conclusion, I am not going to research it to the level I should and, therefore, I surrender my right to make a decision on said topic. I can certainly express an opinion, but it is solely my opinion and I hold no one else accountable to follow it. For all I know, they may be better versed in the topic than I.
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#1139720 --- 01/29/10 10:33 AM Re: Dairy Farm in Cayuga targeted by animal rights [Re: Greymane]
kyle585 Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 02/18/09
Posts: 19801
Loc: Somewhere out there
Originally Posted By: Greymane
Originally Posted By: kyle585
I can guarantee you that all 60,000 of them are confined 365 days a year.


Of course you can, because you have been there and personally monitored the cows for a full 365 days.


You are clueless. You could learn a lot using the internet if you knew how to use it but I doubt that you do.

http://www.nocafos.org/

In the last few years, 12 livestock factories, most of them dairies, have been built near the town of Hudson, Michigan. Large livestock operations that confine animals year-round are called Confined Animal Feeding Operations (CAFOs).Environmentally Concerned Citizens of South Central Michigan (ECCSCM) developed this website to provide information on the pollution and the damage CAFOs have caused in our community and its watersheds, and to promote Sustainable Alternatives (buy local food & pasture-based meat--see sources). We support vanguard, responsible agriculture, farming that looks ahead to the next generations, preserves biodiversity, raises animals in a healthy environment, does no harm to its neighbors, enhances the natural assets of living communities, and protects our natural resources -- air, soils, groundwater, streams, and lakes.

As family farmers and neighbors, we believe agriculture must take responsibility for its actions in rural communities. CAFOs have failed us. They have damaged our farming communities, degraded our natural resources, and polluted our watersheds.

CONFINED ANIMAL FEEDING OPERATIONS COST TAXPAYERS BILLIONS. The Union of Concerned Scientists calls for POLICIES THAT REDUCE CAFO SUBSIDIES AND ENCOURAGE MODERN, SUSTAINABLE MEAT, MILK AND EGG PRODUCTION. See "CAFOs Uncovered: The Untold Costs of Confined Animal Feeding Operations" for details of the policies that have allowed CAFOs to dominate U.S. meat and dairy production. "CAFOs aren't the natural result of agricultural progress, nor are they the result of rational planning or market forces," said Doug Gurian-Sherman, a senior scientist in UCS's Food and Environment Program and author of the report. "Ill-advised policies created them, and it will take new policies to replace them with more sustainable, environmentally friendly production methods."


Edited by kyle585 (01/29/10 11:07 AM)
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#1139734 --- 01/29/10 11:28 AM Re: Dairy Farm in Cayuga targeted by animal rights [Re: kyle585]
Animal Lover Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/13/06
Posts: 1339
Loc: NY
Bottom line here is a news story like this brings awareness to an issue that many people are not aware of. I'm sure there are a lot of people who saw the ABC news that night and did not know what today's factory dairy farms are like. I've read a little bit about them and have heard but have not witnessed it or even saw a news story that showed today's modern dairy farm. I can't feel bad for the Willet Farm or any farm that may be made to feel uncomfortable by these reports.

Nothing is going to change overnight, if ever. Again, the issue here is over-population and too much consumption of meat/animal products. In order to meet the demand farms are going to be set up as factories that will produce the product in the most efficient, cost-saving way. People need to be aware, but Grey, if you don't want to be aware or you don't care, that is fine. But don't demean those of us who have concerns or want to bring more awareness to the issue. Don't keep insinuating that they don't exist or people are being over-sensitive or overly concerned about "cows".

No, I am not more concerned about a cow or even a dog who is mistreated (tail docking or what have you) over a starving child or a child in a burning building. I would save ANY child from a burning building before I would save an animal...even my own pet. But there is nothing wrong with people shedding light on animal rights and cruelty issues.

I think what bugs me the most about this is you first posted as if it was completely false because of what you have witnessed. Now you are changing your tune and saying, 'so what, that's the way it is. There are more important issues'. I don't care if you are not passionate about this or what you have done in the past (military etc.) it doesn't make you any more knowledgable in this discussion. For some reason this has touched a nerve with you and you don't like the truth, so you think you are going to talk down to those of us who have issues with it. You are reaching trying to make your point, but it's obviously not going to work on those of us who do care about this.

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#1139761 --- 01/29/10 11:57 AM Re: Dairy Farm in Cayuga targeted by animal rights [Re: Animal Lover]
Greymane Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/09/06
Posts: 6848
Loc: Central PA
Sorry, Kyle. I forgot you know everything because you are Net-man! Did you know that Obama was not legally the president because he is not American? I read that on the internet (that I don't use). I bet you believe you save your children by not vaccinating them, as well.

Animal Lover, I am not arguing that these things should not be monitored or even that the "uncomfortable" feeling that the farms may feel is a bad thing (keeps them on their toes). I do KNOW that ABC (and every other major media service) is in it for the ratings and will at times go to whatever extremes they must to get the ratings. As such, everything they provide is taken with a grain of salt. I am not saying I don't watch, I just realize that the level of truth in the report is somewhere between 0% and 100% and I don't know exactly where it falls. I would hate to see a family ruined by a report from someone that certainly has an agenda (regardless of how appropriate that agenda may be).

Take, for example, the landfill discussions. If you had a "town meeting" about the landfill, both sides will provide experts. Both group's experts will provide facts, I have no doubt. What facts they provide and how they spin those facts will DIRECTLY relate to the side they are trying to support. Media is the same way. Do I believe some bad things have occured at that farm? Yes. Do I think they intentionally hurt the cattle? No. Do I think they could do better? Yes. Do I know for a fact what happens on the farm. Nope. And neither does anyone posting here. It is all opinion and all opinions are welcome (except, apparently, mine).

I have no doubt for your love of all creatures. I am just trying to balance the discussion. Remember the discussions about how the SPCA was out of control and animals were hurt because of their actions? I am sure both sides thought they were in the right. As a result, a very good organization which struggles to do more with less suffered (however slightly) from the comments of others.

Does that make sense? I am trying to say that in this particular case, I don't think either side is totally in the right and I don't think either side is totally in the wrong. Trust me, most people do not want to know how are food gets to the fridge. I have a couple of friends who are vegans as I said before. I respect that and their commitment to their beliefs. I, personally, could not make that commitment, but I understand it. Rigid belief that on certain items, there can be no difference of opinion is why we have had so many holy wars.
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Against logic there is no armor like ignorance. - Dr. Lawrence J. Peter

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#1139769 --- 01/29/10 12:05 PM Re: Dairy Farm in Cayuga targeted by animal rights [Re: Greymane]
Z Genius Lusifer Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 11/16/01
Posts: 27999
Loc: inside your head & under your ...
Greymane sayd: "Do I think they intentionally hurt the cattle? No."


Better watch the Video....
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#1139771 --- 01/29/10 12:09 PM Re: Dairy Farm in Cayuga targeted by animal rights [Re: Z Genius Lusifer]
Greymane Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/09/06
Posts: 6848
Loc: Central PA
Originally Posted By: Z Genius Lusifer
Greymane sayd: "Do I think they intentionally hurt the cattle? No."


Better watch the Video....


Alright, Lusi. You know I meant as a group, not a specific person. (Who, BTW, has been fired.)
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Against logic there is no armor like ignorance. - Dr. Lawrence J. Peter

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#1139777 --- 01/29/10 12:29 PM Re: Dairy Farm in Cayuga targeted by animal rights [Re: Greymane]
Z Genius Lusifer Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 11/16/01
Posts: 27999
Loc: inside your head & under your ...
The one that was punching the cows and cracking them over the heads with the large monkey wrench. The one that laughed about how hard he hit the cows and he now thinks he will have arthritis in his hand from such powerful full out punches to the cows....that one
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#1139796 --- 01/29/10 01:12 PM Re: Dairy Farm in Cayuga targeted by animal rights [Re: Greymane]
all seeing eye Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/05/07
Posts: 2351
Loc: Seneca Lake
Actually, tail docking (and ear cropping) is banned throughout Europe and many other countries.

As you guessed the AKC and many of the breed clubs oppose the ban, even though it is both painful and unnecessary.

Originally Posted By: Greymane

I would support a ban on tail docking for dogs. I have to wonder what the AKCs stand would be on that. Wouldn't it affect the "standards" for many of the breeds? I know we talked about the dog show earlier. I don't doubt that these people love their animals, but some of them just don't get it. The levels they go to in the name of competition is crazy. (It is much like some people are with their kids when it comes to sports.)


Edited by all seeing eye (01/29/10 01:13 PM)
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#1139801 --- 01/29/10 01:18 PM Re: Dairy Farm in Cayuga targeted by animal rights [Re: Z Genius Lusifer]
redcowman Offline
Member

Registered: 06/01/03
Posts: 473
Loc: NOT THERE
OK people you have beat him up enough. Get as mad as you want, howl at the moon, whistle dixie. This is how its done other than the fool with the monkey wrench. I dont care who your great, great, half uncle on your step-mothers side was super farmer 4 million years ago. You really dont want to know where that stuff that sits on the store shelves comes from. Wake up. Horns are done, tails are done. The guy in the video is not very good at it and it can be done with alot,alot less pain. Any farmer in their right mind is going to tell you they fixed it to get you to leave them alone. Pick any farm and theres issues you dont ask for them, you dont want them. Just try your best to fix and move on. If you dont see a milking cow outside in a pasture its in the barn 24/7 365. most of the ones outside are heifers waiting to be mothers or dry cows. For those of you that are a little slow- Its like a taxi driver going out and sticking a knife in his tire. Car dont move NO MONEY. Cow dont move no money. Even you plant eaters out there may not really want to know where your food comes from. OK bring on the attack

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#1139808 --- 01/29/10 01:27 PM Re: Dairy Farm in Cayuga targeted by animal rights [Re: all seeing eye]
Greymane Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/09/06
Posts: 6848
Loc: Central PA
And yet, they LOVE animals. I think if you asked the majority of the members, they would be against it. I think the whole physical doctoring, inbreeding and caging for travel is a bit ridiculous. It is about perspective.

Have you seen Avatar? The scene where the girl kills the wild dog(?) and talks about the sadness of taking the life. I think most would be surprised to find that many hunters feel the same way. They understand the complexity of population management and the value of all life. Very few things in life are black and white. (Of course, some hunters are just childish jerks that shoot anything and everything. Sad, but true.)

We could provide the most humane environment possible for all animals we intend to consume. We could also pay $50 per pound for ground beef as a result. (Have you ever had Kobe beef?) It is all about that fine balance. Until we reach Utopia, we can only strive for a practical balance of convenience and compassion. Most certainly, some changes are taking place already at this farm as a result of the attention. Baby steps, right?
_________________________
Against logic there is no armor like ignorance. - Dr. Lawrence J. Peter

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#1139812 --- 01/29/10 01:39 PM Re: Dairy Farm in Cayuga targeted by animal rights [Re: Greymane]
redcowman Offline
Member

Registered: 06/01/03
Posts: 473
Loc: NOT THERE
Where did everyone go????????????

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#1139822 --- 01/29/10 01:51 PM Re: Dairy Farm in Cayuga targeted by animal rights [Re: redcowman]
redcowman Offline
Member

Registered: 06/01/03
Posts: 473
Loc: NOT THERE
I guess no one wants to know where that cheap hamburger they sell at the store comes from.

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#1139864 --- 01/29/10 03:08 PM Re: Dairy Farm in Cayuga targeted by animal rights [Re: redcowman]
Animal Lover Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/13/06
Posts: 1339
Loc: NY
Originally Posted By: redcowman
I guess no one wants to know where that cheap hamburger they sell at the store comes from.


cowman, many of us know exactly where our meat comes from. I've been to a slaughterhouse and I saw the blood and guts on the floor. No, I didn't witness the actual killing but I know of the different methods. Don't talk down to those of us who want to eat meat but would hope there was a better way. And don't ignore the fact that the sadistic farm hand in those videos should be held accountable. Not only fired but charged with some sort of crime. Too damn bad if it makes the farm look bad. They would have let it continue if they hadn't been caught. That's what we are talking about here. And there is a lot of crap like this going on and if the farms know people are paying attention maybe more sadistic idiots will get fired.

I have family and friends who hunt deer, elk, moose, turkey, even wild boar. I've seen the deer hanging in trees and the pictures of the guys showing off their kill...holding up the heads to show off the rack. It doesn't bother me. But it does bother me to know that cows, yes the hambuger, steak and dairy products, that I enjoy eating, are being mistreated in the way they were in that video, and will continue to be mistreated because certain idiots think it is okay...because hey it's just a stupid animal and that's the way it is.

Again, don't talk down to those of us who get it but don't like it. In fact, I was just thinking if stories like this do upset people and they become vegans then we'll all be better off. Less animal waste going into the ground and water and healthier people. And I am willing to pay more for meat and dairy products if I can be assured they had a fairly decent life and weren't caged or beaten. I will eat less meat etc. It's a known fact that we consume way too much meat as it is. We eat too much in general...way more than we need to survive. There is no need for people to be eating huge steaks and prime ribs when it just turns to fat or we crap it out anyway.

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#1139876 --- 01/29/10 03:28 PM Re: Dairy Farm in Cayuga targeted by animal rights [Re: Animal Lover]
kyle585 Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 02/18/09
Posts: 19801
Loc: Somewhere out there
Originally Posted By: Animal Lover
There is no need for people to be eating huge steaks and prime ribs when it just turns to fat or we crap it out anyway.
Health experts will tell you a daily serving of beef should be about the size of a deck of cards. i have seen guys eat a weeks worth of prime rib on a Saturday night.
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#1139877 --- 01/29/10 03:29 PM Re: Dairy Farm in Cayuga targeted by animal rights [Re: Animal Lover]
kyle585 Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 02/18/09
Posts: 19801
Loc: Somewhere out there
Originally Posted By: Animal Lover
Too damn bad if it makes the farm look bad. They would have let it continue if they hadn't been caught. That's what we are talking about here. And there is a lot of crap like this going on and if the farms know people are paying attention maybe more sadistic idiots will get fired.
Exactly.
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#1139886 --- 01/29/10 03:53 PM Re: Dairy Farm in Cayuga targeted by animal rights [Re: kyle585]
redcowman Offline
Member

Registered: 06/01/03
Posts: 473
Loc: NOT THERE
Finally a tree hugger with some stones.Thank you, I think you just like to talk about something you know nothing about. I also would hope that there was a better way. Did you get that part or do you need to have it repeated. If you take a look back i did address the hired hand. How do you know that they would have let it continue? (crystal ball) dont you think the owner would have stepped in when he found out. I would have and he would be lucky if being arrested was all that happened to him. I did not, again I did not say it was ok. I said that it happens. And to answer another statement you made. Who are you to tell the world or our state or county what people get to eat

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#1139892 --- 01/29/10 04:07 PM Re: Dairy Farm in Cayuga targeted by animal rights [Re: redcowman]
redcowman Offline
Member

Registered: 06/01/03
Posts: 473
Loc: NOT THERE
Sorry it took so long to reply. I got tired of waiting. Come back, dont go away. This is a good one.

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#1139897 --- 01/29/10 04:17 PM Re: Dairy Farm in Cayuga targeted by animal rights [Re: redcowman]
Animal Lover Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/13/06
Posts: 1339
Loc: NY
Originally Posted By: redcowman
Finally a tree hugger with some stones.Thank you, I think you just like to talk about something you know nothing about.


Listen pal, I think that you are not far from those that we are posting about. I read these forums and I know who and what you are. I am not a tree hugger. I am a person, that has respect for the animals that I eat. I am a person that has a concern for people's health and concern for clean water.

Originally Posted By: redcowman
I also would hope that there was a better way. Did you get that part or do you need to have it repeated. If you take a look back i did address the hired hand. How do you know that they would have let it continue? (crystal ball) dont you think the owner would have stepped in when he found out. I would have and he would be lucky if being arrested was all that happened to him. I did not, again I did not say it was ok. I said that it happens.


Seriously, I am reading you but I am laughing, cause you are just that. LAUGHABLE. You are not a match for me or many of the people that post on these forums. Heck I wasn't even debating with you to begin with. I was speaking to Grey for the most part. And you somehow needed to jump in with the idea that people here care what you think. Believe me, most on here have no respect for your opinions. We got your number.

And as far as the owner stepping in when he found out, how long would it take? Surely others witnessed this but as you say that's the way it is so everything would stay status quo. Sometimes things need to be brought to light to make people wake up and do what is right.

Originally Posted By: redcowman
And to answer another statement you made. Who are you to tell the world or our state or county what people get to eat


Where did I tell ANYONE what they "get" to eat. I merely pointed out as a nation we consume way too much food that is not good for us, including meat. Everything in moderation can be good but eating HUGE steaks etc. is not good for anyone. Any doctor will tell you that. The obsession with over-eating is costing us a lot in many different ways. I won't take the time to explain it all to you because you won't get it. You are a waste of my time. Now go back to finding someone to sue.

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#1139899 --- 01/29/10 04:20 PM Re: Dairy Farm in Cayuga targeted by animal rights [Re: Animal Lover]
redcowman Offline
Member

Registered: 06/01/03
Posts: 473
Loc: NOT THERE
Wait dont go anywhere. Let me read all this so that I may reply

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#1139908 --- 01/29/10 04:38 PM Re: Dairy Farm in Cayuga targeted by animal rights [Re: redcowman]
redcowman Offline
Member

Registered: 06/01/03
Posts: 473
Loc: NOT THERE
OK sorry, you have a little bit there.
#1 I am a ways away
#2 Im very happy that you respect the animals you eat. Im sure
they will be glad to know that. I dont think they will be
thanking you anytime soon.
#3 Peoples health and clean water have to do with a fool for
a hired hand?
#4 Grey had my support from afar
#5 Ya got my number, wow and I care what you think? Im just
trying to tell how it is.
#6 (READ) The guy with the monkey wrench is a fool
#7 I believe you wrote "No need for people to be eating huge
steak and prime rib.

I think that covers everything

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