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#1139294 --- 01/28/10 12:23 PM Re: Dairy Farm in Cayuga targeted by animal rights [Re: Greymane]
past tense Offline
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Registered: 03/05/03
Posts: 29711
Loc: Houston, TX
Originally Posted By: Greymane
She can love animals until the cows come home (sorry for the pun). I just don't think that politicians should be PROPOSING LAW about things that they are not well versed. I love elephants, but I certainly wouldn't propose making a law regarding their care as I have never cared for an elephant.


How do you know how well-versed or not she is in this subject? If someone is passionate about something they often make it their business to become well-versed. And she lived Upstate for 4 years. I learned a lot about Alaska in 3 so I think she's got a fair shot at being "well-versed". You don't really know what she knows.

Originally Posted By: Greymane
I don't support nor oppose this farm. I don't know what really happens there. Nor do you.


Um. Ok.

Originally Posted By: Greymane
As long as I am eating my steaks and not driving to the farm to see what is actually happening, I figure I don't have a lot of say in it. When I eat my venison, I know how it died (and how it lived, since I watch them year round).


Now you're off on some crazy tangent about farming in general. I'm not a vegetarian and I haven't said a thing about the ethics of eating meat, or of farmed meats.

Originally Posted By: Greymane
I have enough land that I could raise my own beef if I chose. I choose not to, so I relinquish SOME control over how they are raised. That is why we have laws (hopefully written and enforced by people who understand their purpose). I know it is a bit of a ramble, but does that make sense?


It makes a lot of sense. What doesn't make sense that you seem to magically "know" what this Assemblywoman knows about farms and animal rights.

I don't think one needs to grow up on a farm to object to what we saw in that video. I don't think one needs a degree in animal husbandry to qualify to propose legislation about animals.

And for the sake of argument, let's say she's NOT an expert on farming. The video speaks for itself. You can ramble on about context but I can't imagine a context in which that kind of treatment of animals would be acceptable. My uncle owned a dairy farm when I was a kid and I never saw ANYTHING like that go on.

Originally Posted By: Greymane
I don't oppose protecting animals. I worry about people piling on based on one person's perspective.


ONE PERSON!

There are a lot of people - including farmers - whose "perspective" is that the actions in this video are unacceptable in any context. Is your beef (pardon the pun!) really just that the person who sponsored the legislation is from NYC? Because that's - almost incredible, really. I don't know why growing up in a city precludes one from having knowledge on, or opinions on, animal rights.

Originally Posted By: Greymane
Did you ever condsider that this person could have paid another worker to harm an animal? Of course, the media would NEVER create a story. And, as I said, I don't know one way or the other, but if you REALLY cared, you would drive out to the farm tonight to find out. Is that your car I hear warming up??

(I stand by to be soundly word-whipped.)


I can't drive to the farm tonight. I live in Texas now (which means I don't have to warm my car up at all anymore).

And no, I never considered that vegans paid people to hurt animals in order to dissuade people from eating them. But - I suppose anything is possible. All the vegans I know avoid dairy but enjoy kicking cats.


Edited by past tense (01/28/10 12:25 PM)
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#1139295 --- 01/28/10 12:23 PM Re: Dairy Farm in Cayuga targeted by animal rights [Re: Z Genius Lusifer]
kyle585 Offline
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Registered: 02/18/09
Posts: 19801
Loc: Somewhere out there
Originally Posted By: Z Genius Lusifer
Kudo's to Mercy for Animals.

Thanks to the person who gave me the Farm's phone number.


I called to try to ask questions and they hung up on me.


They won't even talk on the phone! Probably on advice of their lawyer.
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#1139300 --- 01/28/10 12:32 PM Re: Dairy Farm in Cayuga targeted by animal rights [Re: kyle585]
Z Genius Lusifer Offline
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Registered: 11/16/01
Posts: 27999
Loc: inside your head & under your ...
Got them today.

I asked if they fired the worker that punched the cows - they said they did...


I asked if they corrected the procedure where the cows got off the truck and were slipping on the concrete which could potentially break their legs, he said it was corrected...

Conversation ended there.....

Call them - ask them some questions
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#1139302 --- 01/28/10 12:32 PM Re: Dairy Farm in Cayuga targeted by animal rights [Re: Greymane]
Josephus Offline
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Registered: 08/25/00
Posts: 11561
Loc: NYS
Originally Posted By: Greymane

She can love animals until the cows come home (sorry for the pun). I just don't think that politicians should be PROPOSING LAW about things that they are not well versed.

I think you're making an assumption here. How do you know the politician in question hasn't researched the subject?
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#1139321 --- 01/28/10 01:15 PM Re: Dairy Farm in Cayuga targeted by animal rights [Re: Josephus]
Greymane Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/09/06
Posts: 6848
Loc: Central PA
Originally Posted By: Josephus
Originally Posted By: Greymane

She can love animals until the cows come home (sorry for the pun). I just don't think that politicians should be PROPOSING LAW about things that they are not well versed.

I think you're making an assumption here. How do you know the politician in question hasn't researched the subject?


Lots of passion here. That is a wonderful thing. IF (and I stress IF) these things are being done on this farm, they will be dealt with in due time.

Jos, I don't know she didn't research it, but I have spent enough time in Albany at their offices to know that the VAST majority know almost NOTHING about the laws they sponsor and vote on. They have staff that may (or may not) properly research these things and make recommendations to them. In most cases, the staff are passionate kids approaching the fringes of the left or right (depending on their boss). The decisions to "jump onboard" are generally political in nature.

I don't know for certain how much or how little this woman put into researching the topic. None of you one this forum knows what actually happened at that farm or how that video was made. Having grown up on a farm, if this is business as usual on that farm, I hope they shut it down tomorrow, but I will admit I am skeptical. Even the farmers who commented were surprised that THIS farm would commit such atrocities.
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#1139324 --- 01/28/10 01:23 PM Re: Dairy Farm in Cayuga targeted by animal rights [Re: kyle585]
Greymane Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/09/06
Posts: 6848
Loc: Central PA
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Greymane
Originally Posted By: Z Genius Lusifer
What goes on at the Sampson Dog Show that is abusive. Please back your statement up.

I never said there was anything abusive. I am saying that a video can be made to support any point of view even if the events shown are purely innocent. It is all about context.

Originally Posted By: Greymane
the problem is, I could take a camera to the annual dog show at Sampson and make a video that would have you sick to your stomach. It is all in the edit.


Baloney. You have changed your tune completely since yesterday.


No change in tune. I have been to the Sampson dog show. I have no doubt that there is incredible love and compassion for the dogs there. Nonetheless, some good camera angles and great editing would make a purely innocent scene look pretty scary. I only have to find one person who is tired and rushing jerks the leash a little harder than usual. One dog that is recovering from an injured leg.

I have a blast at the show and if I ever saw abuse, I would correct it ON THE SPOT. That doesn't mean I couldn't make it look bad, though.

Just as an example, if I posted on here that someone was feeding rancid food to the dogs at the show, there would be a dozen people come on hear talking about the horrors that they saw at the show. It doesn't have to be true, you just have to be convincing. Welcome to the modern media. Whatever sells.
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#1139333 --- 01/28/10 01:50 PM Re: Dairy Farm in Cayuga targeted by animal rights [Re: Greymane]
kyle585 Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 02/18/09
Posts: 19801
Loc: Somewhere out there
Originally Posted By: Greymane
None of you one this forum knows what actually happened at that farm or how that video was made. Having grown up on a farm, if this is business as usual on that farm, I hope they shut it down tomorrow, but I will admit I am skeptical. Even the farmers who commented were surprised that THIS farm would commit such atrocities.
They admitted to Lusifer on the phone that they fired one guy for what was on the video! And they adnitted to him that they are correcting another action based on what was on the video! So obviously what was on the video was at least partially true. Be skeptical all you want. They have admitted wrong doing over the phone for gods sake without even knowing who they were talking to! That is not very smart of them at all. I think that farm is in big trouble.
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#1139334 --- 01/28/10 01:52 PM Re: Dairy Farm in Cayuga targeted by animal rights [Re: Greymane]
kyle585 Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 02/18/09
Posts: 19801
Loc: Somewhere out there
Originally Posted By: Greymane
I have a blast at the show and if I ever saw abuse, I would correct it ON THE SPOT.
You would correct it on the spot how? By stealing someones dog? You make some amazing statements.
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#1139347 --- 01/28/10 02:20 PM Re: Dairy Farm in Cayuga targeted by animal rights [Re: kyle585]
Z Genius Lusifer Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 11/16/01
Posts: 27999
Loc: inside your head & under your ...
Yep, they were very accommodating of my questions today....

I should have had more, but thought I'd get hung up on again...
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#1139348 --- 01/28/10 02:26 PM Re: Dairy Farm in Cayuga targeted by animal rights [Re: kyle585]
Greymane Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/09/06
Posts: 6848
Loc: Central PA
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Greymane
None of you one this forum knows what actually happened at that farm or how that video was made. Having grown up on a farm, if this is business as usual on that farm, I hope they shut it down tomorrow, but I will admit I am skeptical. Even the farmers who commented were surprised that THIS farm would commit such atrocities.
They admitted to Lusifer on the phone that they fired one guy for what was on the video! And they adnitted to him that they are correcting another action based on what was on the video! So obviously what was on the video was at least partially true. Be skeptical all you want. They have admitted wrong doing over the phone for gods sake without even knowing who they were talking to! That is not very smart of them at all. I think that farm is in big trouble.


With people like you around, yes, they are. They fired the guy. Apparently he does not follow the rules under which they operate. As for the loading / unloading, certainly not the best method, but this happens ALL OVER THE COUNTRY.
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#1139349 --- 01/28/10 02:28 PM Re: Dairy Farm in Cayuga targeted by animal rights [Re: kyle585]
Greymane Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/09/06
Posts: 6848
Loc: Central PA
Originally Posted By: kyle585
Originally Posted By: Greymane
I have a blast at the show and if I ever saw abuse, I would correct it ON THE SPOT.
You would correct it on the spot how? By stealing someones dog? You make some amazing statements.


Believe it or not, I have the animal control officer's number in my cell phone (since he farms the field next to my house).
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#1139387 --- 01/28/10 03:21 PM Re: Dairy Farm in Cayuga targeted by animal rights [Re: Greymane]
Animal Lover Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/13/06
Posts: 1339
Loc: NY
Grey, I am trying to see things from your perspective and maybe I missed it, but have you watched the videos? Did you see the report on ABC news the other night? I did.

I don't want to watch the video again but those who have watched, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. At one point in the report, after the section showing video leading up to the tail being cut off of a cow, Mr. O'Dell (I believe that's who they said it was) was asked if the cow was given anything for pain. He said no. When asked if he thought that it might be painful for the cow he replied that you would have to ask the cow.

Now, to me that showed a HUGE lack of compassion on his part. Yes tail docking may be regular procedure at most dairy farms and I can see why it may need to be done for safety and sanitation, but in other reports it is stated that something should be given to the cow to reduce the pain, because a "happy", comfortable cow is going to be a better cow for milk production.

So, if I'm right and that was Mr. O'Dell who was interviewed, how can you say that it was edited or is being taken out of context? It was an unedited video in that particular segment. Questions being asked and answered directly with the interviewers face and voice and Mr. O'Dell's face and voice coming through the video camera all in one frame.

And any idiot (country bumpkin or city slicker) would be able to understand and make a law about how a dairy cow should be treated when docking it's tail. They would also understand issues such as it not being necessary to drag calves by their legs on their backs from their mothers, beating a cow for no reason or leaving sick cows untreated for days until they die. You wouldn't treat a dog like that so why should you treat a cow that way? And even if some cows or dogs are treated this way, it doesn't make it right and laws that prevent cruelty are certainly not going to ruin a dairy farmers business.

And these idiots in Cayuga County that do not want to prosecute are wimps. If they can't see reason enough to do an investigation and possibly press some charges I wouldn't trust them to protect our children from perverts. They should be put on probation for not taking their jobs seriously. Laws are there to uphold. If they don't want to do it, then move over and allow others to have the job.

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#1139390 --- 01/28/10 03:35 PM Re: Dairy Farm in Cayuga targeted by animal rights [Re: redcowman]
all seeing eye Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/05/07
Posts: 2351
Loc: Seneca Lake
I think the farm in question is a CAFO. Here is how EPA describes CAFOs:

What is a CAFO?

Animal Feeding Operations (AFOs) are agricultural operations where animals are kept and raised in confined situations. AFOs congregate animals, feed, manure and urine, dead animals, and production operations on a small land area. Feed is brought to the animals rather than the animals grazing or otherwise seeking feed in pastures, fields, or on rangeland.

Your operation is an AFO if:

You confine animals for at least 45 days in a 12-month period, and
There's no grass or other vegetation in the confinement area during the normal growing season



Originally Posted By: redcowman
If your lucky 1cow to 2 acres. Midwest is anywheres from 1 to 3 to 1 to 18 acres depending on the soil and how they take care of it. Ive worked on large dairy farms and hauled alot of those pigs south of Waterloo. Bottom line is there is no money in dead or injured animals. It may not be right that it comes down to money but, it does.
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#1139582 --- 01/29/10 07:48 AM Re: Dairy Farm in Cayuga targeted by animal rights [Re: all seeing eye]
Greymane Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/09/06
Posts: 6848
Loc: Central PA
I will agrue the point no further because most of you clearly have never spent time on a farm. (Claim what you like.) I hope you never eat a turkey at Thanksgiving. That is truly a sad situation. (Go ahead. Make you claims about that one too and ensure you review the government requirements for "free range" before you tell me about your turkey.)

As for the tail docking, tell me that a large number of dogs do not have their tails docked without proper vet supervision (and that is SOLELY for the asthetics). (And, I have heard the same arguement for dogs. "They don't really feel it." Yeah, right.)

I do not like it, but I accept it and continue to eat my steaks and drink my milk. When home, much of my meat is either venison or beef raised by a relative, but I don't ask where Abigail's gets their meat.

Before I worry about some cow getting her tail cut, I will struggle with the fact that kids are starving in Africa because the tons and tons of food that many of you send over their goes to the warehouses of the warlords so they can sell it to grow their war coffers. Children die of diseases that we hardly encounter in the US because they are PREVENTABLE with a pill costing a few cents.

That is my viewpoint. I don't ask you to subscribe to it.

(Oh, and ASE, I understand they have to have some guideline, but do you really think that confining an animal for four days a month is cruel? I guess I run an AFO for my kids because there are certainly four days a month (on average) that I don't think it is fit for them to go out and I have no grass in my living room.)
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#1139591 --- 01/29/10 08:07 AM Re: Dairy Farm in Cayuga targeted by animal rights [Re: Greymane]
all seeing eye Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/05/07
Posts: 2351
Loc: Seneca Lake
The definition came from the EPA, not me.

Just wanted to make sure we know that the cows in question are not the ones in the "happy cows from california" ad.

PS, there is another bill pending to ban tail docking on dogs as well.
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#1139637 --- 01/29/10 09:17 AM Re: Dairy Farm in Cayuga targeted by animal rights [Re: all seeing eye]
Greymane Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/09/06
Posts: 6848
Loc: Central PA
Originally Posted By: all seeing eye
The definition came from the EPA, not me.

Just wanted to make sure we know that the cows in question are not the ones in the "happy cows from california" ad.

PS, there is another bill pending to ban tail docking on dogs as well.


No, I understand that.

Certainly, they are not the "happy cows". I don't know if I have ever seen a "happy cow". Not that they weren't happy, but how would you really know? Unless they are liking your nose, they really don't show much interaction.

I would support a ban on tail docking for dogs. I have to wonder what the AKCs stand would be on that. Wouldn't it affect the "standards" for many of the breeds? I know we talked about the dog show earlier. I don't doubt that these people love their animals, but some of them just don't get it. The levels they go to in the name of competition is crazy. (It is much like some people are with their kids when it comes to sports.)
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#1139675 --- 01/29/10 09:50 AM Re: Dairy Farm in Cayuga targeted by animal rights [Re: Greymane]
past tense Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 03/05/03
Posts: 29711
Loc: Houston, TX
Originally Posted By: Greymane
I do not like it, but I accept it and continue to eat my steaks and drink my milk. When home, much of my meat is either venison or beef raised by a relative, but I don't ask where Abigail's gets their meat.


What a copout. Seriously. Just because we're meat eaters doesn't mean we shouldn't be concerned about the practices by which we get our meat. Just because a farmer is doing the work for us doesn't mean we should just forgo interest or responsibility in how that animal was treated before it was treated in our own kitches.

And I'll be happy to spit your own words back on you - IF YOU REALLY DIDN'T LIKE IT YOU'D DRIVE TO THAT FARM TONIGHT.

Don't try telling me "you don't like it". You don't care and there's a difference.
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#1139686 --- 01/29/10 09:58 AM Re: Dairy Farm in Cayuga targeted by animal rights [Re: past tense]
Greymane Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/09/06
Posts: 6848
Loc: Central PA
Originally Posted By: past tense
Originally Posted By: Greymane
I do not like it, but I accept it and continue to eat my steaks and drink my milk. When home, much of my meat is either venison or beef raised by a relative, but I don't ask where Abigail's gets their meat.


What a copout. Seriously. Just because we're meat eaters doesn't mean we shouldn't be concerned about the practices by which we get our meat. Just because a farmer is doing the work for us doesn't mean we should just forgo interest or responsibility in how that animal was treated before it was treated in our own kitches.

And I'll be happy to spit your own words back on you - IF YOU REALLY DIDN'T LIKE IT YOU'D DRIVE TO THAT FARM TONIGHT.

Don't try telling me "you don't like it". You don't care and there's a difference.


Don't be so foolish. Using your own logic, you approve of pedophiles. How much time did you spend monitoring chat rooms or tracking repeat sex offenders last night? That is what I though. It is called "picking your battles". None of us can do it all.
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#1139688 --- 01/29/10 10:00 AM Re: Dairy Farm in Cayuga targeted by animal rights [Re: Greymane]
past tense Offline
Diamond Member

Registered: 03/05/03
Posts: 29711
Loc: Houston, TX
LOL

That doesn't even make sense, first of all. Second, I'm using YOUR logic if you'll recall.
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#1139702 --- 01/29/10 10:10 AM Re: Dairy Farm in Cayuga targeted by animal rights [Re: Greymane]
kyle585 Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 02/18/09
Posts: 19801
Loc: Somewhere out there
Originally Posted By: Greymane
(Oh, and ASE, I understand they have to have some guideline, but do you really think that confining an animal for four days a month is cruel? I guess I run an AFO for my kids because there are certainly four days a month (on average) that I don't think it is fit for them to go out and I have no grass in my living room.)
I linked to an operation that had 60,000 cows. I can guarantee you that all 60,000 of them are confined 365 days a year. That is where all tyoe of animal farming is going in the United States. If you don't believe me check into it further.
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